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Passions in Poetry

through our wrongdoing

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Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


50 posted 04-04-2007 02:49 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

"quote:

... wherever my tax dollars go I am responsible.


You betcha, Mike. Citizenship isn't an abdication of responsibility. You paid the money and you elected the people who spent it on your behalf -- how could you not be responsible for the results?"


Well I'm glad this time all Americans
are babykillers, not just the soldiers,
more company that way.


serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


51 posted 04-04-2007 02:51 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

That was really out of line John.
Balladeer
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since 06-05-99
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Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


52 posted 04-04-2007 03:59 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Not to mention pathetic...
Not A Poet
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since 11-03-1999
Posts 4427
Oklahoma, USA


53 posted 04-04-2007 10:39 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

I think maybe you both missed the ironic sarcasm in John's statement.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


54 posted 04-04-2007 10:51 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Not A Poet,

Thank you

Perhaps I'm too old for the reference
to be understood . . .

John

PS: Semper Fi

.
Balladeer
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Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


55 posted 04-04-2007 11:18 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Coming from one of the accused "baby killers", it's not a statement good to see in print, sarcasm or not.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


56 posted 04-04-2007 11:41 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Mike,

Less attractive buried . . .

John

PS
"Coming from "  . .. is that the same as being?
Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


57 posted 04-05-2007 12:55 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I was about to ask you John if you've ever heard the phrase 'quit while you're ahead' -- but, it's doubtful.

Since you're not ahead -- you might consider just not making it any worse.
Denise
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Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


58 posted 04-05-2007 12:59 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

If payment of taxes were voluntary there might be culpability, but they aren't. We have no real choice but to pay them. And no, prison isn't a viable alternative. The threat of prison only reinforces the absence of choice in the matter, in my opinion.

I don't buy into the corporate guilt theology. I am responsible for my own sins, as is everyone responsible for their own. Even in a country "of, by and for the people", the people only have so much power and control, and the more corrupt the politicians, the less power the people actually have.
Ron
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Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


59 posted 04-05-2007 10:55 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
We have no real choice but to pay them.

There are always choices, Denise, even when you don't particularly like them.

Going to jail is just one alternative. Leaving the country is another. Not availing yourself of an opportunity to earn income is yet one more. Stop reaping the benefits and the costs of being an American drop as well. As long as you are reaping the benefits, however, you have to pay the corresponding costs. And, yea, that includes the responsibility for running the country.

quote:
Even in a country "of, by and for the people", the people only have so much power and control, and the more corrupt the politicians, the less power the people actually have.

Who, exactly, are those politicians, Denise? Who elected them? If the people only have so much power and control, who has the rest? Dogs? Horses? The only difference between you and George W. Bush is that he ran for office and convinced a whole lot of people he could and would do what they wanted done. He's a people just like you, Denise. He's a citizen, the same as you and I.

People still run the country, Denise. If they don't like the way it's run, if they think the politicians are all corrupt, it's their own fault. They have a choice.
Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


60 posted 04-05-2007 05:05 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I think Denise has a valid point about coercion though Ron. The choice between prison and taxes is hardly a choice.  But, where I think that you're right is in saying that we're responsible too.

The gap I think -- is in what that responsibility is -- as a taxpayer.  I'm not guilty of commiting crimes in Abu Ghraib -- the perpetrators are -- and the system -- or lack thereof -- in the military that permitted/created the perpetrators shares that guilt.

The responsibility for us -- is to take action to stop the activity, punish the perpetrators, and most importantly see to it that it doesn't happen again.  We didn't hire them, after all, to abuse prisoners any more than we hired GW to prosecute a war of choice over non-existent WMD's.  But we are liable for the actions they commit(ted).

I think that's what you mean too when you say 'responsible', but I think Denise and Mike read that and see 'guilty'.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


61 posted 04-05-2007 07:50 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Speaking as one of those on whom the crimson of
My Lai was broadly brushed  I resent the focus on Abu Ghraib
as implicitly characterizing young American soldiers now.
If those young men and women did not believe in what they were doing
it  would be easy enough to refuse leaving base; they would have myriads
in the rear at their defense declaring them heroes.


.
 
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