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Mistletoe Angel
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25 posted 04-02-2007 02:52 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

quote:
You are all just basically talking around what the actual question is? WAS IS NECESSARY?? Was it done to help our soldiers, hurt our efforts or "let the chips fall where they may?"by our own press? Any of you gentlemen going to claim it was not done solely for the ratings by 60 Minutes? Or do you sidestep that one, too?



No more unnecessary than it was for enacting legislation that suspends habeas corpus rights for alleged alien combatants, or placing American citizens in detention as unlawful enemy combatants without proof of criminal activity by the President, nor performing extraordinary renditions, or listing individuals in the United States as global terrorists based solely on "secret evidence", nor keeping the Guantanamo prison camp open despite the camp being a metaphor for what's hurting our image in the world and immense international pressure to do so.

Do you, Balladeer, think any of THAT WAS NECESSARY?

These sort of things exemplify why we have become so unpopular worldwide within these past four years especially. And when we recognize something is wrong, I absolutely don't believe we should run with the "What they don't know, won't hurt them!" defense and that our government must, as Ron suggested, accept the conseqences and show their moral and civic integrity and responsibility by correcting the wrongs and showing the world such democratic maturity in the process.

Some of us here apparently have a greater trust in established government than others. I was always taught when I was young through reading history that politicians can be admired, they can be respected, but that they are NEVER meant to be trusted. And so while some may have full confidence that the president, the administration, Congress and the military will and are investigating all such problems thoroughly, I for one can't depend and trust that they are doing just that. Look at how some Pentagon officials made a mockery of Pat Tillman's death, and even after nearly three years his family STILL doesn't know the whole truth of what happened. I certainly can't blame his parents whatsoever if they can never trust the Pentagon again.

Should it be any wonder why plenty of libertarians and traditional conservatives are abandoning the GOP in droves and registering as Independents? They are outraged over virtually the same sort of thing; whether it was NECESSARY whatsoever to expand government in fighting terrorism worldwide. They rightfully believe that such behavior is hurting our image on the global stage, as well as diverting attention from domestic concerns and needs here at home.

I don't know what to conclude here other that perhaps some just have more faith in bigger government and our representatives than others.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
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26 posted 04-02-2007 03:37 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Forget it, Noah. The tactic of answering the question with questions or branching off to other topics to avoid answering won't make it. If it's a question you can't (or refuse to answer) then leave it at that and let the subterfuge go.
Brad
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27 posted 04-02-2007 04:12 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Was it necessary?

Isn't the answer the same as the one you've already given, Mike? When it comes to torture, it is inevitable.

How do you stop it? How do you keep it down?

You can blame 60 minutes, but really wouldn't somebody, somewhere have gotten wind of it, put the pictures on the internet, and started the whole thing over again?

There's obviously much more to say here, but my point is simply that, at least in this case, I think that 'was it necessary' is a perfectly valid response to, well, 'was it necessary?'

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28 posted 04-02-2007 04:48 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

was it necessary is a valid response to was it necessary....thanks for your input, brad
Mistletoe Angel
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29 posted 04-02-2007 05:05 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

quote:
Forget it, Noah. The tactic of answering the question with questions or branching off to other topics to avoid answering won't make it. If it's a question you can't (or refuse to answer) then leave it at that and let the subterfuge go.


On the contrary, this has virtually EVERYTHING to do with what we're talking about; of whether the actions of any opportunist or representative are NECESSARY for the security and well-being of our populace.

Though I do critique Ron on the point where he agreed that the US tortures prisoners, which I believe was falling victim to metonymy there, you yourself keep attempting to walk around and/or dodge his general assertion that the abuse of prisoners is the real crux of the problem, not the press scandal itself by suggesting 100% of the irresponsibility lies on the shoulders of the media giants, while having 100% trust in established government and Pentagon officials who some, are in some ways, passively allowing such behavior to happen in the first place.

I certainly couldn't blame many Japanese citizens at Manzanar and civil rights activists for not wanting to trust the government again after Franklin D. Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9066, which allowed him as commander-in-chief to send ethnic groups into internment camps. He insisted at the time that that order was NECESSARY to save American lives when our nation was at war during World War II. Yet, that very order was exploited to imprison 110,000 Americans, both Nisei and Issei.

I certainly couldn't blame any pacifists for not wanting to trust the government again when Woodrow Wilson signed the Espionage Act, which he insisted at the time that it was NECESSARY to save American lives when our nation was at war during World War I. Yet, that very act was exploited to prosecute 2,000 Americans and demonize them as "hyphenated Americans", despite most of them merely calling for peace and non-violence during a time of war.

You think I'm being paranoic comparing such aforementioned legislation today to this monstrous legislation of the past, both of which by the way were exploited by Democratic presidents? I believe the way the Military Commissions Act is written, once any elected official decides to exploit it, it can repeat such unfortunate history as this all over again. And it's exactly these sorts of shenanigans that harm our image on the international stage and make us appear as though our officials don't practice what they preach in terms of our democratic cornerstones and principles, and that we rather appear sophomoric as a democracy in the eyes of others.

We could place the blame entirely on those particular journalists and their agencies who run the scoops, which by no means should be spared of criticism, but I believe the problem is much more expansive than that, and we seriously ought to re-examine our government's neoconservative foreign policy agenda, which is truly where much of the antagonism towards our nation is coming from.

PIPA: January 2005 poll

I think it's beyond tragic when the British in ANY poll even BEGIN to THINK that our president is the second greatest threat to world peace behind only Osama bin Laden. Yet, that's exactly what was indicated in a November 2006 poll by The Guardian. And then there's the Program on International Policy Attitudes poll conducted after Bush's re-election that indicates 6/7 of countries polled believing this administration's re-election is a setback for world security. It is terrifying to me.

This is absolutely relevant to the central theme of this thread, regarding maintaining our positive image in the world in the face of opportunists who claim what they do is necessary but exploit and propagandize means that actually harm our image. Certainly we should pity anyone who sells out our national integrity for profit or for vanity, but I also believe it's only fair that we crucially re-examine our foreign policy that's truly hurting our world image more than anything.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
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30 posted 04-02-2007 06:33 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

while having 100% trust in established government and Pentagon officials who some, are in some ways, passively allowing such behavior to happen in the first place.

Noah, it was the military who uncovered the actions and it was the military who was in the process of conducting the investigation.

You think I'm being paranoic comparing such aforementioned legislation today to this monstrous legislation of the past, both of which by the way were exploited by Democratic presidents?

Yes.

we seriously ought to re-examine our government's neoconservative foreign policy agenda,

All this coming from two eggheads making Iraqis strip and being humiliated....astounding.

regarding maintaining our positive image in the world in the face of opportunists who claim what they do is necessary but exploit and propagandize means that actually harm our image.

Yes, thank you. You have finally described our media to a "T".

but I also believe it's only fair that we crucially re-examine our foreign policy that's truly hurting our world image more than anything.

...which has nothing to do with the actions at Abu Ghraib.

Noah, I realize that you place poll results on an even keel with the Bible and the laws of Nature, but any poll in the past several decades would rank the United States as one of the most dangerous threats to world peace. That's logical. If you walk into a bar and are asked to select the one patron who could hurt you the most and the choices are two 5 foot, 150 lb elderly men and a 6'4", 240 lb musculared fellow in his 20's, which would you choose? the United States is the most powerful, best armed, strongest country in the world. That fact alone makes it the most feared and the biggest threat, regardless of it's intentions. It's not Bush, although you make like to think so. It is human nature....
Ron
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31 posted 04-02-2007 08:53 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Though I do critique Ron on the point where he agreed that the US tortures prisoners, which I believe was falling victim to metonymy there


quote:
The U.S. who? I haven't tortured any. You haven't tortured any.

Actually, Mike, yea, we have.

When you pay someone to do something for you it's exactly the same as if you did it yourself. You can't legitimately hire someone to rob a bank for you, you can't hire someone to murder your ex, and you can't hire someone to torture your enemies. When you pay the bills you also have to ready to pay the piper. You and I don't get to take pride in what our service men do unless we're also willing to share their shame.

quote:
Tell you what....the next time someone in your town commits a murder, let's get it on the evening news. Then let's get it on the national news, then the world news. Let us then further embellish it with statements like Michigan is a place where murders happen, acutally Michiganders are prone to commit murder. Let's make Michiganders hated in the world. Let's read in foreign papers condemnation of any person from Michigan, since they cannot be trusted to not murder. Let's get 60 Minutes there to cover this apparent lawlessness in Michigan and investigation teams trying to get to the root of this crisis. Should you be foolish enough to say, "Hey fellas, it was one guy committing a crime", let's listen to them respond "Was the crime committed? Was it by a Michigander? Can you deny that Michiganders murder and are, therefore, murderers? If you don't want the publicity, don't commit the crime." Would you be applauding the media then and wishing 60 Minutes great financial success for their efforts?

Actually, Mike, I've often argued in the past that what you're suggesting is EXACTLY the kind of pressure we need to help stop crime. Indeed, I'd like to see pressure even beyond that of public opinion.

I certainly wouldn't ever suggest that the direct perpetrator of a crime shouldn't be held responsible. They should. But I also think, not all the time but in many many instances, the responsibility shouldn't end with the perpetrator. Using your own example, if there is lawlessness in Michigan, I don't want excuses, I want it stopped. We pay a lot of money for law enforcement and those being paid have to be held accountable.

Just for example? Let's say a drunk driver hits another vehicle and someone is hurt. The police officer assigned to patrol that area should be docked a week's pay, his immediate superiors should be docked a month's pay, and if there's a judge who put that drunk back on the road, he should start looking for a new job real quick. No, they didn't get behind the wheel after drinking, but they also didn't do their jobs. There should be repercussions.

If you really expect me to feel sorry for someone, Mike, when the press points out they weren't doing the job we pay them to do, sorry, but you're going to be disappointed. Punishing a particular perpetrator might stop that particular perpetrator, but that's not nearly enough. The situation that allowed the crime needs to be changed, too. And color me cynical, but that only seems to happen when people are made to pay.

quote:
Noah, it was the military who uncovered the actions and it was the military who was in the process of conducting the investigation.

LOL. That's the whole problem! If you're going to put the fox in charge of guarding the hen house, Mike, at least find someone else to investigate when your darn chickens start coming up missing.

quote:
You are all just basically talking around what the actual question is? WAS IS NECESSARY??

I wanted to save the best for last, Mike.

Was it necessary? Of course not. Very little in this universe is necessary. The decision to reveal the truth was a choice. The alternative, which would be letting Michael decide when the free press gets to be free, also isn't necessary. That, too, is a choice.

What IS necessary, however, is that we make a choice. Clearly, I prefer the truth over lies. That's my choice. I'm just not too crazy about people with power over my life standing too close to the shadows. Let's keep them out in the light where we can all see what they're doing. It may not be necessary, but it sure will make me feel safer at night.


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32 posted 04-02-2007 11:46 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

The head of an organization is responsible for the quality of the product -- which is produced by a SYSTEM.  When the leader and his counsel (Gonzoles) are involved in exchanging correspondence on what kind of agressive interrogation they can get away with and define 'torture' only at the point of internal organ failure -- the system they created from the outset of the war on terror created the conditions at Abu Ghraib by design -- not by error or omission.

You can have a system that's designed to produce product within specifications -- or you can have a system that sorts products to specifications -- the latter, by design, produces bad eggs.
rwood
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33 posted 04-03-2007 07:55 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

I don't know.

Humans prove to be less than humane in certain situations of social structure. It seems to take very little for them to cross the line into sadistic.

Milgram Experiment

obeying authority figures

Stanford Prison Experiment

and the human response to captivity; guards and prisoners.

add official rank and war time to those conclusions and what do you get?
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34 posted 04-03-2007 02:16 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

When you pay someone to do something for you it's exactly the same as if you did it yourself. You can't legitimately hire someone to rob a bank for you, you can't hire someone to murder your ex, and you can't hire someone to torture your enemies.

Ron, if there is a Hall of Fame for the most outrageous examples ever voiced, you will not only be in it...you will have your own wing!   Let's see, part of my taxes which I am required to pay to the government goes to pay soldiers, therefore whatever actions those soldiers commit I am completely liable for, also, and if they commit a crime, it's the same as if I committed the same crime. Yopu compare paying taxes, which goes to support our military, to hiring someone to rob a bank. Does the airline serve refreshments on these guilt trips you try to sell people? If that is the case, then I am also responsibe for the hundreds of crimes our police officers perpetrate every year, ranging from murder to bribes to larceny to ripping off drug dealers.....after all, my taxes pay their salary, too. Anything firefighters do wrong, not to mention sanitation workers, city hall employees.....wherever my tax dollars go I am responsible. Part of it goes to pay our politicians....guess you are as guilty of anything you accuse Bush of.  Ron, you have surpassed outrageous.

Using your own example, if there is lawlessness in Michigan, I don't want excuses, I want it stopped

That's the point! Using my own example had nothing to do with lawlessness in Michigan! It had to do with the actions of one individual.....of course, I suppose that if he were a government employee then all of Michigan WOULD be responsible.

LOL. That's the whole problem! If you're going to put the fox in charge of guarding the hen house, Mike, at least find someone else to investigate when your darn chickens start coming up missing.

Good point but who then was put in charge of the investigation after the media exposure? It was still the military and the government, only difference was that the Arab terrorists used the propoganda to make the Middle  East and the world judge, jury and executioner based on nothing more than their exposure. If the military had NOT investigated it, then you would be in line to chastise them for that, citing your "hiding it under a rock" accusation.


You can have a system that's designed to produce product within specifications -- or you can have a system that sorts products to specifications -- the latter, by design, produces bad eggs

Neat, LR. You don't get your own wing but a small statue at the entrance is not out of the question.  Product? We are not talking product. We are not talking something you design and create to specs. We are talking human beings here and, yes, there ARE bad eggs....in the military, in the government, in society and in life, regardless of what system you design. That's why a few million pray for forgiveness every Sunday. Either that, or they are all paying repentance for the crimes their government employees are committing.


you're going to be disappointed.

Yes, Ron. I am...

Ron
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35 posted 04-03-2007 02:45 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
... wherever my tax dollars go I am responsible.

You betcha, Mike. Citizenship isn't an abdication of responsibility. You paid the money and you elected the people who spent it on your behalf -- how could you not be responsible for the results?

quote:
Good point but who then was put in charge of the investigation after the media exposure? It was still the military and the government ...

Yea, Mike, but suddenly the fox knew the farmer was looking right over his shoulder.

In my opinion, that's not nearly enough, but it's still a lot better than the alternative. If nothing else comes of it at all, at least all those bad apples out there now know the farmer is looking over their shoulders. People who apparently never had an officer directly tell them, "This is bad, don't do it," now know there's a line they can't cross. I still don't think it's enough, but it's something.


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36 posted 04-03-2007 03:34 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

...and if the person I voted for didn't win, am I still responsible or does that absolve me in some way?

People who apparently never had an officer directly tell them, "This is bad, don't do it,"

You think that's why they did it, Ron?...because no officer ever told them it was bad? You think that once a person is told something is wrong then that insures that it will not be done? How can you say they were never told or that it is not written in the directives or job description? They did it because they are a couple of LR's bad eggs....probably for kicks so they could show pics to their buddies when they got home and brag about how big they were, stripping terrorists and humiliating them. That seems to be more like the bottom line to me. What would happen after they found out the media was watching? They would hide the pictures better.

I realize that it is very inviting to take the incident and come up with all kinds of ways to send it up the ladder until one can ultimately tie it to Bush's administration...but the fact is that it was an isolated incident (which had nothing to do with torture, btw) by a couple of jerks who have come to pay for their actions and all of the attempts to make it a chain-of-command problem or a failure-to-communicate problem or any other such creation is biased posturing.
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37 posted 04-03-2007 04:11 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

You know, this reminds me of the criticism of people who criticize the war- "it gives fuel to our enemies." That argument, to me, just sounds like a convenient way to silence opposition.

Was it necessary for me to know about the abuse? I don't know... was it necessary for me to know about Bill Clinton's extramarital forays?
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38 posted 04-03-2007 04:25 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

hush, people didn't get shot over Bill Clinton;s cigar usage. No marches were conducted, no riots ensued and no additional flurry of terrorist activities which killed people were enacted, nor was the condemnation of our military accelerated.

It doesn't matter whether you or I were made aware of this....what matters is that it was fodder for our enemies to twist and use against us. Let's face it....if people in this thread can condemn our  military and us in general over it, imagine what impact it had in the Arab world.....and for what?
Mistletoe Angel
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39 posted 04-03-2007 06:02 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

quote:
It doesn't matter whether you or I were made aware of this....what matters is that it was fodder for our enemies to twist and use against us. Let's face it....if people in this thread can condemn our  military and us in general over it, imagine what impact it had in the Arab world.....and for what?


Let's face it, the Iraq war has already given our enemies worldwide fodder which they continue to twist, and has fomented new terrorists faster than we can stop them.

Long before the war began, I had learned and recognized that the Middle East was made up of myriads of different traditional customs and faiths, and that Iraq in particular was divided between Shias, Sunnis and Kurds. I didn't predict that things would get quite this bad, but I KNEW from the very beginning that war would only escalate the sectarian struggles there and ignite a great wave of civil unrest that could explode into a near-civil war, and that because traditionall fighting fire with fire only scatters the flames, the problem of terrorism would only grow there.

Can't you see that it's this war that's infuriating the Arab world more than anything; that although our young men and women in uniform are truly most honorable and civil individuals who on every local and community level have done all they could to improve the living standards and conditions for Iraqi children and families, the terrorists aren't going to use those snapshots but rather ones of a golden mosque being bombed, or Fallujah being torn apart?

Most Americans understand just that now; that our young men and women in uniform have already accomplished their mission, they have most honorably and patiently did everything they were asked to do to begin with, but the fact is we can't win this war militarily because the innocent loss of life is universally condemned in every war and the insurgents are crushing us in the PR campaign, making us look like ruthless imperialists and occupiers because our government won't announce an exit strategy and we have more troops there than ever before. Do you not see exactly how much ammunition this sort of occupation gives our enemies?

I opposed this war from the start not so much because I'm a pragmatist pacifist who believes war should ALWAYS be a last resort, but rather that I knew we'd dig ourselves down into the middle of an ugly sectarian conflict that would upset the Arab community in making us look like occupiers, emboldening terrorists in the process, and that I wholeheartedly believed it was needless and we could have been heavily spared of all of that while not going soft on those responsible for 9/11. We're truly not that far apart here, Michael, so can't you understand how it felt for me and others to be accused of being anti-American, traitors, terrorist sympathizers and Saddams angels among other things simply for questioning such a policy? Didn't you also have concern that this sort of situation would occur in heading into Iraq, that our enemies could effortlessly make the case to those weary of any international intervention in their culture and ways of life that the purpose of our nation invading was to modernize their whole culture and way of life, thus recruit new terrorists and sympathizers of them?

I believe most Americans absolutely share this reasoning, and that's heavily why 3 in 5 Americans support that very phased withdrawal legislation the President intends to veto, who he has accused such an effort of cutting off funding for our troops and endangering them (which according to both the Senate and House legislation is absolutely not true).

Chuck Hagel Floor Statement on Iraq War Resolution: February 12, 2007

Yet, as GOP senator Chuck Hagel recollects clearly, in October of 1993, 76 senators overwhelmingly supported legislation offered by Senator Robert Byrd of West Virginia to end funding for the failed military mission in Somalia under President Clinton by March 31, 1994, including the current GOP Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, and they did just that because they knew cutting off funding for the war is NOT the same thing as cutting off funding for the troops, and they voted not to jeopardize our troops in any way, but rather that it was clearly understood that there was no need to keep funding a failed mission and it was the rational thing to do.

I believe we need to start approaching this current war the same way, as though Iraq is already hemmorhaging as it is, we can spare ourselves of any further disastrous PR and bleeding of American lives and money. Unfortunately, I think much of the damage is already done on the PR front.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
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40 posted 04-03-2007 06:15 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

A service is very much a product Mike, whether it's a tax service, insurance, a bank, someone who cleans houses, works on your car, or then there is the Military.  What do we call that?  "The Service".

Not too many soldiers forget which direction the bullets come out of the gun, or that they are supposed to aim them at the enemy.  Occasionally they will, accidentally point them at a mistaken target or just fire them inadvertantly and the wrong target takes a hit.  Those are the kinds of human errors that are inevitable.  We continually try to minimize these errors with better identification and communication methods -- but sometimes technology fails too.

Some people are criminals and go off the reservation and intentionally harm other people -- we call these people sociopaths and there are ways to screen them out of the mix -- normal people don't behave that way.

So, that leaves the issue of soldiers who, for some reason, think that they can -- in plain sight of thier peers -- abuse prisioners.  For some reason they got the idea that this was OK.  They were even so confident that they took pictures of it.

You want to brag that the military was investigating?  That's great -- you should read General Taguba's report

quote:

That between October and December 2003, at the Abu Ghraib Confinement Facility (BCCF), numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees. This systemic and illegal abuse of detainees was intentionally perpetrated by several members of the military police guard force (372nd Military Police Company, 320th Military Police Battalion, 800th MP Brigade), in Tier (section) 1-A of the Abu Ghraib Prison (BCCF). The allegations of abuse were substantiated by detailed witness statements (ANNEX 26) and the discovery of extremely graphic photographic evidence. Due to the extremely sensitive nature of these photographs and videos, the ongoing CID investigation, and the potential for the criminal prosecution of several suspects, the photographic evidence is not included in the body of my investigation. The pictures and videos are available from the Criminal Investigative Command and the CTJF-7 prosecution team. In addition to the aforementioned crimes, there were also abuses committed by members of the 325th MI Battalion, 205th MI Brigade, and Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center (JIDC). Specifically, on 24 November 2003, SPC Luciana Spencer, 205th MI Brigade, sought to degrade a detainee by having him strip and returned to cell naked. (ANNEXES 26 and 53)

6. (S) I find that the intentional abuse of detainees by military police personnel included the following acts:

(S) Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees;
jumping on their naked feet;

(S) Videotaping and photographing naked male and
female detainees;

(S) Forcibly arranging detainees in various
sexually explicit positions for photographing;

(S) Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and
keeping them naked for several days at a time;

(S) Forcing naked male detainees to wear women's
underwear;

(S) Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate
themselves while being photographed and videotaped;

(S) Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and
then jumping on them;

(S) Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box,
with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his
sfingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture;

(S) Writing "I am a Rapest" (sic) on the leg of a
detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old
fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked;

(S) Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked
detainee's neck and having a female Soldier pose for a
picture;

(S) A male MP guard having sex with a female
detainee;

(S) Using military working dogs (without muzzles)
to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least
one case biting and severely injuring a detainee;

(S) Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees.
(ANNEXES 26 and 26)
7. (U) These findings are amply supported by written confessions provided by several of the suspects, written statements provided by detainees, and witness statements. In reaching my findings, I have carefully considered the pre-existing statements of the following witnesses and suspects (ANNEX 26):

----

3. (U) There is abundant evidence in the statements of
numerous witnesses that soldiers throughout the 800th MP
Brigade were not proficient in their basic MOS skills,
particularly regarding internment/resettlement
operations. Moreover, there is no evidence that the
command, although aware of these deficiencies, attempted
to correct them in any systemic manner other than ad hoc
training by individuals with civilian corrections
experience. (Multiple Witness Statements and the
Personal Observations of the Investigation Team)

4. (U) I find that the 800th MP Brigade was not adequately
trained for a mission that included operating a prison or
penal institution at Abu Ghraib Prison Complex. As the
Ryder Assessment found, I also concur that units of the
800th MP Brigade did not receive corrections-specific
training during their mobilization period. MP units did
not receive pinpoint assignments prior to mobilization
and during the post mobilization training, and thus could
not train for specific missions. The training that was
accomplished at the mobilization sites were developed and
implemented at the company level with little or no
direction or supervision at the Battalion and Brigade
levels, and consisted primarily of common tasks and law
enforcement training. However, I found no evidence that
the Command, although aware of this deficiency, ever
requested specific corrections training from the
Commandant of the Military Police School, the US Army
Confinement Facility at Mannheim, Germany, the Provost
Marshal General of the Army, or the US Army Disciplinary
Barracks at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. (ANNEXES 19 and 76)

5. (U) I find that without adequate training for a civilian
internee detention mission, Brigade personnel relied
heavily on individuals within the Brigade who had
civilian corrections experience, including many who
worked as prison guards or corrections officials in their
civilian jobs. Almost every witness we interviewed had
no familiarity with the provisions of AR 190-8 or FM 3-
19.40. It does not appear that a Mission Essential Task
List (METL) based on in-theater missions was ever
developed nor was a training plan implemented throughout
the Brigade. (ANNEXES 21, 22, 67, and 81)
http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/iraq/tagubarpt.html#ThR1.15



  
Balladeer
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41 posted 04-03-2007 06:17 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

they knew cutting off funding for the war is NOT the same thing as cutting off funding for the troops, Like cutting a rope is not the same as cutting the person dangling from it?

Noah, are you satisfied with what will happen in Iraq if we pull out now?
Local Rebel
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42 posted 04-03-2007 11:04 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

It's going to happen Mike, regardless if we pull out now, a year from now, or ten years from now.  Why throw our treasure and kin down that hole too?  Bushco's cynicism and callousness merely desires to push that outcome onto someone else's watch.
Ron
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43 posted 04-03-2007 11:28 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
..and if the person I voted for didn't win, am I still responsible or does that absolve me in some way?

Sadly, Mike, no. We are, after all, just as responsible for our failures as for our successes. I'm still responsible because, clearly, I didn't do enough to keep Bush out of office.

You simply can't have a government "by the people" unless the people accept responsibility for what happens. They might as well. 'Cause you can be damn sure they're the ones who will eventually be confronted with the consequences.
Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
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44 posted 04-04-2007 12:22 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Apparently you should have gone for the wing sooner Ron.

After all this time all I get is a bust.
hush
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since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


45 posted 04-04-2007 03:41 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

'hush, people didn't get shot over Bill Clinton;s cigar usage.'

Not the point- you use this as ammo against him often enough- was it necessary for us to know?
serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


46 posted 04-04-2007 05:32 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

quote:
I'm still responsible because, clearly, I didn't do enough to keep Bush out of office.


thank you

Now.

How do I make damned sure my next vote counts?

I'm with you Ron--the last time I fiercely fought and campaigned against the obvious though, what I got was Governor Edwards, as opposed to Governor Duke. (Both of whom now are convicted felons.)

I need some civics lessons here.

Ron? Reb? Mike? Anybody?

How does the average person make their vote count? Not only count but amplified? That's probably for another thread tho.

To stick to topic, Tillman knew he might die, and to make him MORE of a hero because he had a more lucrative career than the average kid who signed up out of some trailer park is to diminish their contribution--if you can call a death a contribution to this, this--

what are we gonna call "this" anyway? A "comma" in history as George W. suggested?

*shaking my head*

He is an optimist. I'll give him that.




Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


47 posted 04-04-2007 07:50 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

All the men and women who sign up to become soldiers, sailors, marines, and pilots et al are heroes Karen regardless of the foreign policies our politicians decide to prosecute.

Thiers is not to reason why.  At least, as long as what they're asked to do is legal.
Midnitesun
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Gaia


48 posted 04-04-2007 11:03 AM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

quote:
So what do you think England is dealing with?


The English are dealing with the sick collective mindset humans have presented since the beginning of recorded history.
I see no 'progress' on the human timeline when it comes to self-serving behaviors. We have a penchant for fostering cruelty and hatred worldwide, irregardless of motives; when caught red-handed, we attempt to justify our behaviors with religion or 'collective rights' while pointing accusatory fingers at everyone outside our collective circle.
Mistletoe Angel
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City of Roses


49 posted 04-04-2007 02:46 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

quote:
Noah, are you satisfied with what will happen in Iraq if we pull out now?


Obviously not. No one should be proud or satisfied with where we are in Iraq right now. In the general and larger sense it's a disaster, despite our young men and women's honorable and valiant efforts of altruism and community service towards Iraqis on the local levels.

But as I indicated earlier, we CAN'T win this war militarily anymore. Even Henry Kissinger would agree with me on this point now. And as Local Rebel indicated, there comes a time when enough is enough, and if there's no plan for victory nor nor exit strategy, we can spare ourselves from any further loss of American lives and bleeding of our money and bogging ourselves further down into their civil war there by beginning to plan our exit.

Iraq is a PR disaster for us. I brought it up not as a distraction, but to point out you can't have it both ways when you argue one controversial thing can easily offer fuel to our enemies, and another controversial thing isn't doing likewise. That we can argue all day whether evidence of torture should have been reported or not, but ultimately it's the war in Iraq that's especially infuriating citizens throughout the region, so much that even a most shocking and startling statistic comes up that 51% of Iraqis in one poll believe some attacks on our own young men and women are justified for whatever reason.

It's things like this that wholeheartedly convince me we are not winning this war, and in fact CAN'T win it militarily. Now, some may continue to say if we begin an exit strategy, we are "micro-managing" the war, offering comfort to our enemies or they'll just "follow us home". We're going to have to leave sooner or later as it is, and the longer we stay there, the more bitter and antagonistic Iraqis weary of international involvement will become and only foment greater civil unrest, and it doesn't matter when we leave; violent opportunists will rise to the occasion either way as in any foreign operation.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
 
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