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Balladeer
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175 posted 07-05-2007 12:12 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, reb, sometimes things just happen that make one smile....in this case, guffaw. It's so heartening when chickens come home to roost (or when Democratic leaders have to shoot themselves in the foot once again because they have no other choice.

Here's Hillary and the gang, talking about presidential pardoning being abusive and destroying the constitution. Here's Jesse Jr. talking about how perjury is a jailable offense and perjurers MUST go to jail. Man, this is saturday night material. Here's Hillary trying to do damage control...

KEOKUK, Iowa (AP) — Democratic presidential contender Hillary Rodham Clinton drew a distinction between President Bush's decision to commute the sentence of White House aide I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby — which she has harshly criticized — and her husband's 140 pardons in his closing hours in office.

As she campaigns with her husband for Iowa's leadoff precinct caucuses, Clinton has joined other Democrats in ripping Bush's decision. In the interview, she said it was "one more example" of the Bush administration thinking "it is above the rule of law."
Her husband's pardons, issued in the closing hours of his presidency, were simply routine exercise in the use of the pardon power, and none were aimed at protecting the Clinton presidency or legacy, she said.


It ain't finger pointing, reb. It's goose and gander stuff. They want to choke the goose while they gander elsewhere when their own heroes are involved. By all means, ignore the fact that Libby was nothing more than a scapegoat (which you are certainly intelligent enough to know and smart enough not to admit). These Democratic "swamp cleaners" simply can't avoid going after Bush for the same conduct their boy handled with nary a peep outta them. I'm sure they know how ridiculous they sound but, being Democrats on their never-ending mission to get Bush at any possible opportunity, they just can't help themselves. They certainly chose the right animal to portray themselves.

Noah, that's great! I have an idea....take that poem and write 140 more covering Clinton's pardons and make a full-length book, maybe entitled "Pardon Me, Mr. President". You'll have some juicy material, pardoned terrorists caught making bombs on hidden video, a Democratic senator caught siphoning off millions from the postal service, another telling bribers on hidden tape that he wouldn't take their bribes this time but stay in touch becuase he might when he gets to know them better, felon friends from all walks of life....tell me you wouldn't have a best seller!!!!

Oh, you're only interested in Libby? That's sad - but not surprising.
Mistletoe Angel
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176 posted 07-05-2007 04:29 AM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

quote:
Noah, that's great! I have an idea....take that poem and write 140 more covering Clinton's pardons and make a full-length book, maybe entitled "Pardon Me, Mr. President".  You'll have some juicy material, pardoned terrorists caught making bombs on hidden video, a Democratic senator caught siphoning off millions from the postal service, another telling bribers on hidden tape that he wouldn't take their bribes this time but stay in touch becuase he might when he gets to know them better, felon friends from all walks of life....tell me you wouldn't have a best seller!!!!

Oh, you're only interested in Libby? That's sad - but not surprising.


See what I mean, Sharon? LOL! Yes, this national day of independence we just celebrated also epitomizes our right to make premature, hasty generalizations or assumptions about each other before we have even completed or posted poems or have come to ultimate conclusions!

Look, inconsistency is clearly a definitive synonym in Washington now, and has been for further than any of us can remember I'm sure. These past several days have reinforced that reality, where 1) you have the same right-wing water-carriers who rallied to impeach President Clinton for perjury and obstruction of justice (which while I denounce the witch-hunt intent behind the campaign I nonetheless believe Clinton deserved to be punished for lying under oath) acting completely defensive and apologetic toward Lewis Libby, guilty of the exact same charges including lying to the Grand Jury and trying to impede the investigation, and 2) you have the same left-wing water-carriers who acted apologetically toward Clinton's perjury and obstruction of justice offenses behaving oppositely toward Libby's. The hypocrisy is astounding from both ends.

I'll tell you right now that come the real 2008 election season, around the time the primaries kick into high gear, you'll be seeing quite a few satirical verses coming from me on so many of the candidates who embody that inconsistency, which Hillary Clinton is one of the worst offenders along with Mitt Romney. With many of my thematic verses, in fact, the writing process begins weeks, even months before the poem's ever posted or structured, beginning with interesting soundbytes or thoughts I pick up on, leading then to how I can cohesively link them together and make a verse out of them. The whole Libby crisis has been just that way with me, where a lot of thoughts already came to my head, then by the time his sentence was commuted last week, a most representative title struck me, and now the writing has kicked into high gear.

I'm calling the major ones as I'm seeing them, and you can bet with another Clinton presidency it will provide much more fertile ground for great satire, which it'll be my pleasure to provide a slice of it with you.

Until then, to tide over that insatiable appetite, you can write a hit off of Jesse Ray Harvey.......unless that is your credentials and/or specialties are limited to the Clinton name.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
Local Rebel
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177 posted 07-05-2007 06:45 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Oh, you're only interested in Libby? That's sad - but not surprising.



Mike,

Unless you think that an accused murderer's valid defense is that 'OJ did it too' then there is no way that you can really think you've acquited Libby, Cheney, or Bush.

So I guess the question is -- who do you think you're foolin?  
Balladeer
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178 posted 07-05-2007 07:44 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

That dog won't hunt at all, reb. If that same OJ jury were presented with the same facts in the same type of case a year later, only this time with a white defendant, and found him guilty, then I'd agree. That's basically what we have here. Substitute Democratic leaders for jury and democrat/republican for black/white, and you have the current scenario. BTW, Libby wasn't pardoned like the 140 Clinton cronies. Quarter of a million dollar fine, 2 years probation, certainly a loss of his right to practice law...pretty serious stuff for simply being a Democrat scapegoat. He will serve as much time for perjury as Clinton did for perjury...so the system is fine.

The only circus act is the democrat outrage and foaming at the mouth and then the backtracking and attempt at damage control when it dawned on them how hypocritical they are coming off. Change "housewives" for "Dem leaders" and we have a new "Desperate" tv series!

Noah, fair enough. When I see your satire hit both sides of the fence, I'll tip my hat to you. It's a great idea. Look at all the things that rhyme with Hillary....pillary, tomfillary, the possibilities are endless!
Hope you had a great 4th, sir.
Mistletoe Angel
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179 posted 07-05-2007 02:02 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

quote:
That dog won't hunt at all, reb. If that same OJ jury were presented with the same facts in the same type of case a year later, only this time with a white defendant, and found him guilty, then I'd agree. That's basically what we have here. Substitute Democratic leaders for jury and democrat/republican for black/white, and you have the current scenario. BTW, Libby wasn't pardoned like the 140 Clinton cronies. Quarter of a million dollar fine, 2 years probation, certainly a loss of his right to practice law...pretty serious stuff for simply being a Democrat scapegoat. He will serve as much time for perjury as Clinton did for perjury...so the system is fine.


You're right; the system is fine in this particular case, and mind you I'm well aware it isn't a pardon (though I expect the president to pardon him by the time he leaves office) and rather a consummation of his sentence.

I also agree Libby is very much the "fall guy" here and the greater scandal stretches to Richard Armitage in particular and the Vice President's office. I've heard frequently that on a personal level Lewis Libby is quite a decent man, and I truly understand how scandals and punishments like this can hurt their families emotionally very much, I truly do.

United States Sentencing Commission: 2006 Federal Sentencing Guidelines: Offenses Involving the Administration of Justice

United States Sentencing Commission: 2006 Federal Sentencing Table

But I also don't buy at all that lame argument that Libby's sentence is "excessive" either. According to the United States Sentencing Commission, the base level for an Obstruction of Justice crime is 14, where three points could be added if "the offense resulted in substantial interference with the administration of justice.". Perjury is also a level 14 crime, but "If the perjury, subornation of perjury, or witness bribery resulted in substantial interference with the administration of justice, increase by 3 levels."

2006 Federal Sentencing Guidelines: Offenses Involving the Administration of Justice

Of course there's also the False Statement guideline, then the grouping rules have to be considered because Libby was charged on more than one count. But the gist of it here is that once the final offense level is computed, and cross-referenced with the criminal history table (Libby has no prior convictions) you refer to the sentencing table, find the appropriate range, and when one does so, the sentence sounds just about right; 18-21 months on the low end and 24-30 on the high end. And since he was a high level government official and a lawyer who obstructed justice, surely it's sensible that he would get a sentencing in the higher applicable range.

You may note I indeed feel particularly strongly about this case, and you're right, I absolutely do, and it's because 1) this whole scandal goes to the heart of the big lie behind Bush and Blair's justifications for going to war in Iraq, a war whose "reasons" I didn't buy to begin with, that Saddam Hussein was trying to acquire weapons of mass destruction, where in his 2003 State of the Union speech, Bush said that "the British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa" and Rice took it to the next step that Saddam was trying to turn "a smoking gun into a mushroom cloud".

Yet, regardless of all the other heinous acts Saddam committed on the Iraqi population, that yellowcake "intelligence" was doubted months, even years in advance by a wide number of sources and agencies, including Dr. Mohamed ElBaradei, Director General of the International Atomic Energy Agency, CIA Director George Tenet, who argued the Africa-uranium claim not be included in the speech because it was based on only one source, the CIA agency in particular and the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research, who in January 2003 expressed publicly convincing concerns that the Iraq-Niger documents were forgeries.

So Joseph Wilson had the temerity to share those conclusions with the public, the very man who was sent to investigate alleged sales of yellowcake uranium to Iraq in the first place. Administration officials resent what he's doing, so what do they do? Organize a campaign to discredit him, to smear any dissent or healthy questioning against the war within the circle, which all but certainly gravitates especially around the Vice President's office, and Libby, who happens to be Cheney's chief of staff, was willing to lie to the Grand Jury with the sole intent of protecting his own boss.

And this whole consummation stunt is nothing but a cynical political ploy that sinews the fact that protecting the secrets of his inner circle and mollifying the eroding slice of right-wing water-carriers left in his political base are a higher priority to the president than preserving our right of law and ideals, as well as reveal how soft on crime this president can truly be often despite his tough record as a governor. It's a slap in the face to me, a slap in the face to the rule of law, a slap in the face to our young men and women in uniform who bravely and courageously continue serving on the torrid streets of Baghdad and beyond, left coping for themselves as both parties continue to offer the President a blank check on a failed foreign policy that has taken 3,586 lives, a slap in the face to their families who await and pray for their safe and healthy return and, frankly, it should feel like a slap in the face to every American right now I believe.

This is far from the only time such a scandal has gotten to me emotionally, certainly, and in the decades ahead I expect to write verses on them gravitating around both parties. Frankly, I'm outraged about both the scandal and the consummation, along with 40% of Republicans in a new Pew Research Center poll, and it is beyond me why the other 60% in the survey aren't equally as outraged.

quote:
The only circus act is the democrat outrage and foaming at the mouth and then the backtracking and attempt at damage control when it dawned on them how hypocritical they are coming off. Change "housewives" for "Dem leaders" and we have a new "Desperate" tv series!


And this is where you're absolutely correct, my friend, as all the Democrats who have called for Libby's head but defended Clinton on the same crime are just as heinously hypocritical these past several days as the Republicans are for vice-versa.

Yahoo: July 3, 2007

Why, Hillary Clinton had said at a debate on June 9th, when asked what her opinion was about a Libby pardon, refused to answer and said that the question was too personal and the night was anout the audience. Yet, on Tuesday, she comes out and says: "This (the Libby decision) was clearly an effort to protect the White House. ... There isn't any doubt now, what we know is that Libby was carrying out the implicit or explicit wishes of the vice president, or maybe the president as well, in the further effort to stifle dissent."

She's a hypocrite to the umpteenth degree and personifies among many others the grim promise of maintaining the status quo of inconsistency in Washington for years to come. Heck, spin-offs of the "Desperate Housewives" have been airing long before "Desperate Housewives" even aired its pilot episode. If only now we had a spin-off of "Nanny 911" named "Indy 911".

*

Okay, goosfraba.......goosfraba.......LOL! I indeed had a wonderful Fourth of July and hope you did too, sir!

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
Local Rebel
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180 posted 07-05-2007 05:40 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

That dog won't hunt at all, reb. If that same OJ jury were presented with the same facts in the same type of case a year later, only this time with a white defendant, and found him guilty, then I'd agree. That's basically what we have here. Substitute Democratic leaders for jury and democrat/republican for black/white, and you have the current scenario.



No Mike.  What you're trying to do is use evidence against OJ to convict Jeffery Dahmer, or rather, get Jeffery Dahmer off because OJ got off.

quote:

Libby wasn't pardoned like the 140 Clinton cronies.



Once again, like clockwork, you resort to overly generalized mis-information to try to make a point that's somewhere nearly 180 degrees off the dart-board.

But let's take a look at the controversial Clinton pardons:
http://www.usdoj.gov/pardon/clintonpardon_grants.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton_pardons_controversy

Note that almost everyone on the list, with the exception of Mark Rich, either served some or ALL of thier sentences -- and very few could fall into the 'crony' category -- if at all.

quote:

Libby wasn't pardoned like the 140 Clinton cronies. Quarter of a million dollar fine, 2 years probation, certainly a loss of his right to practice law...pretty serious stuff for simply being a Democrat scapegoat. He will serve as much time for perjury as Clinton did for perjury...so the system is fine.



You're right -- he hasn't been pardoned -- which means that his case is still up for appeal -- which means that he can't testify in any further investigations by Congress or by the DOJ.  Pretty slick eh?  

Not only that -- by commuting Libby's sentence he's in effect excusing someone for actions that were taken under his direction -- something more similar to Nixon's Saturday Night Massacre -- something the principal framer of the Constitution, James Madison, said would be a gross missuse of Presidential Clemency power and should be rightfully impeachable.

So, if the Congress decides to impeach Bush and Cheney -- and they can withstand the courts and the Congress as Clinton did, THEN, and only then, will the system be fine.

Of course -- Bush and Cheney could have the temerity to simply do the right thing for the Nation like Nixon did, and simply resign.

But then -- that would leave your 'Desperate Housewife' in charge.  (Way to slide a masogynistic analogy in there.)
Local Rebel
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181 posted 07-05-2007 05:49 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Noah, fair enough. When I see your satire hit both sides of the fence, I'll tip my hat to you. It's a great idea. Look at all the things that rhyme with Hillary....pillary, tomfillary, the possibilities are endless!



Does this mean then, that you approve of the Clinton pardons Mike?  That you're criticizing the Libby decision?  That you agree Bush is no better than Clinton and failed to fulfill his campaign promise of restoring integrity to the White House?  Is what's good for Noah good for you?
Balladeer
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182 posted 07-06-2007 02:05 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

No Mike. What you're trying to do is use evidence against OJ to convict Jeffery Dahmer, or rather, get Jeffery Dahmer off because OJ got off.
No, reb, what I'm saying is that, if OJ had been convicted of double homicide and was given probation and later a pardon and later your son was convicted of double homicide and given life, it would be reasonable for you to say, "What gives here?" and if the judge answered, "Double homicide is a life sentence" then there's a chance you would say, "And what about OJ?"  That's what we are saying here and you don't want to hear it...

Of course -- Bush and Cheney could have the temerity to simply do the right thing for the Nation like Nixon did, and simply resign.
The right thing in YOUR opinion, of course. The Democrats would rather see him drawn and quartered, picked apart by vultures who ate his genitals inch by inch. Just maybe that would satisfy them and square the board for making them feel unimportant and dismissed....and, then again, maybe not.

and very few could fall into the 'crony' category -- if at all.
How many is a "very few"? More than one? Then they outnumber Libby.....but let's take a look.

FALN pardons....President Clinton cited executive privilege for his refusal to turn over some documents to Congress related to his decision to offer clemency to members of the FALN terrorist group.

In March 2000, Bill Clinton pardoned Edgar and Vonna Jo Gregory, owners of the carnival company United Shows International, for charges of bank fraud from a 1982 conviction. First Lady Hillary Clinton's youngest brother, Tony Rodham, was an acquaintance of the Gregorys, and had lobbied Clinton on their behalf
Almon Glenn Braswell was pardoned of his mail fraud and perjury convictions, even while a federal investigation was underway regarding additional money laundering and tax evasion charges.[12] Braswell and Carlos Vignali each paid approximately $200,000 to Hillary Clinton's brother, Hugh Rodham, to represent their respective cases for clemency. Hugh Rodham returned the payments after they were disclosed to the public.

Mark Rich.....Denise Rich, Marc's former wife, was a close friend of the Clintons and had made substantial donations to both Clinton's library and Hillary's Senate campaign.

Roger Clinton, the president's half-brother, on drug charges after having served the entire sentence more than a decade before. Roger Clinton would be charged with drunk driving and disorderly conduct in an unrelated incident within a year of the pardon.[15] He was also briefly alleged to have been utilized in lobbying for the Braswell pardon, among others.
These are just from the small handful of pardonees your second link contained. Funny how some Clinton had received money from several of these individuals.....coincidence, I asume?

Does this mean then, that you approve of the Clinton pardons Mike?
You got me there, reb. I have NO idea how you come up with that one. Attempting to twist it into something it's not won't fly.

They are all still trying to do damage control.

Bill Clinton today...I think there are guidelines for what happens when somebody is convicted," Clinton told a radio interviewer Tuesday. "You've got to understand, this is consistent with their philosophy; they believe that they should be able to do what they want to do, and that the law is a minor obstacle."   Huh?

Al Gore.....Former Vice President Al Gore said he found the Bush decision "disappointing" and said he did not think it was comparable to Clinton's pardons.

Scott Stanzel, a White House deputy press secretary, said that, "When you think about the previous administration and the 11th-hour, fire-sale pardons ... it's really startling that they have the gall to criticize what we believe is a very considered, a very deliberate approach to a very unique case."
"I don't know what Arkansan is for chutzpah, but this is a gigantic case of it," presidential spokesman Tony Snow said.

Amen, brother.

Local Rebel
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183 posted 07-06-2007 06:18 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

No, reb, what I'm saying is that, if OJ had been convicted of double homicide and was given probation and later a pardon and later your son was convicted of double homicide and given life, it would be reasonable for you to say, "What gives here?" and if the judge answered, "Double homicide is a life sentence" then there's a chance you would say, "And what about OJ?"  That's what we are saying here and you don't want to hear it...



Do you have a mouse in your pocket?  Is that the imperial 'we'?  Or are you the official water-carrier for the Bush Whitehouse? (I always suspected the latter)

Actually -- that's exactly what I like to hear -- but, that's not what you were saying previously.

If you look at the actual average sentences for Mr. Libby's crimes he's well within the 'sentencing guidelines' that Republicans, and the Bush Whitehouse in particular, are so adamant about:

False Statement, 18 U.S.C. §1001(a)(2)
Average prison sentence: 11.82 months

Obstruction of Justice, 18 U.S.C. §1503
Average prison sentence: 46.33 months

Perjury, 18 U.S.C. §1623
Average prison sentence: 28.50 months

look them up yourself http://fjsrc.urban.org/analysis/t_sec/stat.cfm?stat=5

So then, by your own statements -- you want to know 'what gives' regarding the Libby prison sentence commutation?

quote:

How many is a "very few"? More than one? Then they outnumber Libby.....but let's take a look.



Actually if the definition of 'crony' is someone who is acting at the President's bidding -- then... the answer is NONE.

Unless you're alleging that Clinton was directing the FALN terrorists.... I don't know why he pardoned them -- and I'm not supportive of that decision.  But -- so what?

It has nothing to do with the sleaziness of the Bush Administration.

The Gregorys served their time Mike. I think there is a pretty strong argument that Hillary's brother was brokering pardons.  

But -- so what? It has nothing to do with the sleaziness of the Bush Administration.

Mark Rich I'm still confused about... all I know is that the Israeli government requested his pardon.  Do you know why?  

But -- so what? It has nothing to do with the sleaziness of the Bush Administration.

quote:

You got me there, reb. I have NO idea how you come up with that one. Attempting to twist it into something it's not won't fly.



I'm just trying to figure out where you're coming down Mike.  You want to suggest that Noah can't criticize the Libby commutation unless he's going to criticize Clinton.  So, by induction -- does that mean that since you're criticizing Clinton that you don't support the Libby sentence commutation?

quote:

Bill Clinton today...I think there are guidelines for what happens when somebody is convicted," Clinton told a radio interviewer Tuesday. "You've got to understand, this is consistent with their philosophy; they believe that they should be able to do what they want to do, and that the law is a minor obstacle."   Huh?



No big question Mike.  Even liars, like broken watches, sometimes tell the truth.

quote:

Al Gore.....Former Vice President Al Gore said he found the Bush decision "disappointing" and said he did not think it was comparable to Clinton's pardons.



It is disappointing, to me, but probably not to Al.  He probably just sees lunch.  But, he's right -- it isn't comparable to Clinton's pardons -- look at the list -- then look at who Bush has pardoned, and failed to pardon (even at the request of the Pope and Pat Robertson).

quote:

Scott Stanzel, a White House deputy press secretary, said that, "When you think about the previous administration and the 11th-hour, fire-sale pardons ... it's really startling that they have the gall to criticize what we believe is a very considered, a very deliberate approach to a very unique case."
"I don't know what Arkansan is for chutzpah, but this is a gigantic case of it," presidential spokesman Tony Snow said.



What's real chutzpah is to make a statement like that when the 'considerations' that the President made, Libby's work history, his service to the public, the effect on his family -- are all the things that he and his administration say judges can't take into consideration when passing sentence.

[This message has been edited by Local Rebel (07-06-2007 08:15 PM).]

Local Rebel
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184 posted 07-06-2007 06:42 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Today, Tony Snow said that President Bush decided to commute Scooter Libby's 30 month prison sentence for perjury and obstruction of justice because it was 'excessive.'
Yet, last year, the Bush administration filed a friend-of-the-court brief with the Supreme Court in an attempt to uphold a lower court's ruling that a 33 month prison sentence for Victor Rita, who was convicted of perjury and obstruction of justice, was 'reasonable.'

The questions we should all be asking ourselves today are: Why is the President flip-flopping? Why does Scooter Libby get special treatment?
--
Senator Joe Biden
http://www.usdoj.gov/osg/briefs/2006/3mer/2mer/2006-5754.mer.aa.pdf



quote:

"I don’t believe my role is to replace the verdict of a jury with my own, unless there are new facts or evidence of which a jury was unaware, or evidence that the trial was somehow unfair."

-- George W. Bush from his autobiography, A Charge to Keep.



FLIP/FLOP

Local Rebel
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185 posted 07-06-2007 07:27 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

During hearings after Rich's pardon, Lewis "Scooter" Libby, who had represented Rich from 1985 until the spring of 2000, denied that Rich had violated the tax laws, but criticized him for trading with Iran at a time when that country was holding U.S. hostages. In his letter to the New York Times, Bill Clinton explained why he pardoned Rich, noting that U.S. tax professors Bernard Wolfman of Harvard Law School and Martin Ginsburg of Georgetown University Law Center concluded that no crime was committed, and that the companies' tax reporting position was reasonable. [New York Times, February 18, 2001][2]. In the same letter Clinton listed Libby as one of three "distinguished Republican lawyers" who supported Rich's pardon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Rich



Bizzaroworld.....     

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186 posted 07-07-2007 07:46 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

My OJ comparison does not pertain to Bush's sentence reduction of Libby. It relates to the time Libbly will spend in jail for perjury compared to the time Clinton spent in jail for perjury.

No cronies of Clinton, you say? Well, I guess you have to define crony. Money to brother Tony? Money to brother Hugh? Donations to the Clinton library? Substantial donations to Hillary's senate campaign? Refusal to disclose the reason for FALN (you KNOW they have money!)? We're talking about the couple that turned the Lincoln bedroom into a Motel Six, the couple who stole the silverware, furniture and paintings from the White House when they left (to the point where the FBI had to go take it away from them). I would say Clinton would refer to any individual that slipped cash into their hands as "cronies".

You want to talk sleazy?

No, it has nothing to do with the Bush administration except that Mr. and Mrs. Sleaze, along with their usual suspects are now doing the rock-throwing from their saran-wrap house while condemning he who would destroy the Constitution. You got the sleaze part right, reb, but the finger is pointing the wrong way.
rwood
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187 posted 07-07-2007 08:55 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Yall are getting sleazy?

I found this, and it's quite a short read, but there are many of the same words/themes in this thread. Almost eerie, but this proves that many are doing a lot of thinking on the subjects.

there's a clock, a prediction, exploits, Scooty has cooties, etc. and this:

quote:
Our representatives -- and to a great degree we as a culture -- are completely buffaloed by shamelessness. .



Newshoggers


That's a powerful quote.
Oh yeah, and the word "cronies," too. How ironic, or not.

[This message has been edited by rwood (07-07-2007 11:50 AM).]

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188 posted 07-07-2007 09:03 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

My OJ comparison does not pertain to Bush's sentence reduction of Libby. It relates to the time Libbly will spend in jail for perjury compared to the time Clinton spent in jail for perjury.




Haven't we already been here?  round the mulberry bush again?  I agree this was your original argument -- but it's not what you said in your last post...

Oh well.. don't really mind repeating myself --just a cut and past i'nt it?

quote:

Unless you think that an accused murderer's valid defense is that 'OJ did it too' then there is no way that you can really think you've acquited Libby, Cheney, or Bush.

So I guess the question is -- who do you think you're foolin?  



Let's just recall that in the Clinton and OJ trials there was something markedly different from Libby's -- the absence of a guilty verdict.

I'm not sure what the average prison sentence is for persons found 'not guilty' Mike -- there seems to be no data available.  (but I suppose we could consider Judith Miller to be a standard?)

Of course -- had the Republican Senate found Mr. Clinton guilty he wouldn't have been 'sentenced' -- he would merely have been removed from office.

But there was still that other thing needed to convict him.. oh, yeah... an indictment -- Ken Starr never indicted him -- did he?

So, all you had was an activist judge taking it upon herself to find Mr. Bill to be in contempt of court.  Those drated dastardly activist judges! ( Oh No Mr. Bill!) <-Kids won't get that

I thought, I did define cronyism -- for our purposes here -- but if you want to open it up to the broader definition then we'd have to get into Enron, Haliburton, Jack Abramhoff, Saudi Princes, oh my God the list just goes on and on... who wants to open up that can of day-old asparagus?

quote:

You got the sleaze part right, reb, but the finger is pointing the wrong way.



So, then you're saying it's ok for Noah to only be irate about the Libby pardon. Cool.
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189 posted 07-07-2007 09:15 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Interesting read Reggie -- I think the conclusion is compelling (even though I don't think the theme of 'shame' was fleshed out adequately from a writing standpoint):

quote:

We have long since past the point where a healthy popular-political-media system's immune system would have been activated. The Bush administration has used the fear of calling out shame as a rapier to tatter our internal mores, values and cohesion while knowing that there are not sixty seven votes to convict. However the lack of votes should not matter. Principles are important even if a victory is not guaranteed in the defense of those principles.



And, I agree, and disagree.  I'm not sure that I see the point just for the points sake -- I would, rather -- if energy was spent on impeachment proceedings -- see the reccomendation of Reagan's National Security Advisor, General Odom carried out -- to impeach over the war itself and the abuse of power.

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190 posted 07-09-2007 07:46 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

I'll probably be slapped around for this, but you know what I'm feeling the most shame for right now, as an American?


My elders are ashamed of our current government. The strong men and women of my family who went through several crises, wars, the Great Depression, etc. I see fear and anger in their eyes. Not of other countries. Of their own America. They feel everyone is being sucked in by the implosion of corruption within the network of our government, and anyone who "appears" to escape it or rise above as a leader? Must be protected by something even more diabolical.

Sorry, I know that's subjective and emotionally rendered, but that's what came to me when you spoke of "fleshing out."

and all the blood beneath, you know?


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191 posted 07-09-2007 06:14 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

My backhand is in the shop -- so, you're safe!  
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192 posted 07-09-2007 06:29 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Aha,,,I was sure you had loaned it to Federer for Wimbledon.
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193 posted 07-09-2007 10:30 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Ah, good. My ouch is broke. Yall can get back to being sleazy now. You both have some good points btw.
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194 posted 07-10-2007 06:31 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Just think of it as tough love Mike!  

Reg; I thought I had my hair parted so they don't show?
 
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