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Juju
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150 posted 03-26-2007 03:07 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

I think I was misunderstood.  When I made the comment, I wasn't saying people shouldn't disagree with me.  

I am saying, from living in a very liberal school,  It is sad when I here someone say they want Bush to be impeached.  They want the US to fall (Like another country take us over).  Unfortunately I have come across this way to often.  

I do not mean if Bush did something wrong don't impeach him. If he really did something so terribly wrong impeach him, but no one should want the embarrassment of impeaching our president.  This impeach bush thing has been going on since 9 months after 9/11.  You can say what you want, but I am sick of hearing about this.  I am really sick being around the majority of the factious, liberal socialists at my school.  I swear its almost like anarchy.  

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thougts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos

Mistletoe Angel
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151 posted 03-26-2007 03:20 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

quote:
Noah, you are going to claim that is the thinking of all, or even a majority, of traditional conservatives just because one organization came up with it? Please....


I never suggested that. Had I made the sweeping generalization fallacy in claiming that ALL traditional conservatives shared the same uniform view of the American Freedom Agenda, I would have placed the word "all", "most" or "majority" in front of the words "traditional conservatives and libertarians".

The point is, while you've went off spinning all the issues listed in that conservative group's pledge solely as "personal and biased attacks, orchestrated by the Democrat congressional elite." that's "aimed at bringing down the rooster Bush and having nothing to do with the good of the country.", the fact is there are a considerable number of traditional conservatives and libertarians who are just as outraged over all of this as these usual suspects you frequently point to are, which include Richard Viguerie, considered the "founding father" of all modern conservative strategy, David Keene, the chairman of the American Conservative Union, and Bruce Fein, former Associate Deputy Attorney General during the Reagan Era, certainly among plenty of others beyond this group.

You can choose to dismiss what Ron said yesterday as "right out of the Democrat playbook", but with all due respect, I feel so much of what you've been saying are regurgitated GOP apologist talking points taken from their playbook. Even when the GOP held the trifecta for six years and the Democrats were in the minority in every fashion, apparently it wasn't enough for you to continue focusing almost 100% of your energy upon them, while your cognitive dissidence greeted everything the other party did with a halo effect.

I say this with good intentions, as I believe you to be a good friend and a warm and compassionate person as I have seen from all your wonderful poems and anecdotes that have truly inspired me, and certainly we all hold our own beliefs and ideologies that thus inspire biases in each of us. But I do also believe you have a tendency to act like a GOP apologist, where whenever anyone even merely questions the decision-making of the president or the GOP leadership, you instantly conjure up a defensive reaction and retreat into your 1992-1999 carapace. I certainly admire that you stand by your beliefs and don't leave the past behind, but I also question how you hold certain grudges, make sweeping generalizations out of them and allow yourself to see this duopoly landscape entirely in black and white, rather than in lighter and darker shades of grays.

As you know all too well, I'm not satisfied with this administration, and also am one dissatisfied with this administration who also strongly opposes any organized impeachment effort on Bush and if I were alive during the Lyndon B. Johnson, I'd be speaking up just as loudly over his terrible leadership bogging us down in the Vietnam War, or under Franklin D. Roosevelt when he insisted that Executive Order 9066 was necessary to save American lives and ultimately imprisoned 110,000 Americans under his watch, or under Woodrow Wilson when he insisted that the Espionage Act was necessary to save American lives, which ultimately prosecuted 2,000 Americans as "Hyphenated Americans", who were charged simply for advocating for peace as war went on, all of whom were Democratic presidents.

Although I lean Democratic overall on most issues (I am more alligned with the Republicans on immigration, prayer in public schools and the absolute right of gun ownership), I am an Independent because I have seen how both parties have made a mockery of our democratic institutions over these many years; turning the House of Representatives, first founded to represent the public in contrast to the Senate representing elite interests, into a two-year hybrid of the Senate, as well as kowtowing with special interest groups from MoveOn and organized labor on the left to Focus on the Family and big oil on the right, having individuals represent just those interests on both sides, from Howard Dean and Al Sharpton on the left to name a couple to James Inhofe and Pat Robertson on the right to name a couple, and, finally, getting swamped in political correctness.

I think it's obscene from both ends, and though it may seem I'm particularly outspoken towards this administration, it is because I believe it is just that soiled with cronyism and ideals that are barely conservative at all, and riddled by neoconservatism. I believe it's just that bad. Even so, especially if Hillary Clinton is elected in 2008, having known her history of unethical tricks and deeds, you're going to see me openly criticize this Democratic president quite often I'm sure, or any president who engages in these same sorts of frauds, intimidations, cronyism or executive power grabs in particular.

I believe you absolutely mean well, my friend, but only wish you could stop scurrying to that carapace of cognitive dissidence and consider these sorts of questions and issues beyond party lines.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
Mistletoe Angel
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152 posted 03-26-2007 03:34 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

quote:

I am saying, from living in a very liberal school,  It is sad when I here someone say they want Bush to be impeached.  They want the US to fall (Like another country take us over).  Unfortunately I have come across this way to often.  

I do not mean if Bush did something wrong don't impeach him. If he really did something so terribly wrong impeach him, but no one should want the embarrassment of impeaching our president.  This impeach bush thing has been going on since 9 months after 9/11.  You can say what you want, but I am sick of hearing about this.  I am really sick being around the majority of the factious, liberal socialists at my school.  I swear its almost like anarchy.


You're absolutely right. It IS sad when you hear anyone saying they want to impeach the president more than any other thing.

You won't believe how much I have to put up with others at KBOO Community Radio saying "Impeach this!" and "Impeach that!". It's quite irritating. Whenever I produce the KBOO Evening News on Wednesdays, whenever someone puts together a story on fourteen cities in Vermont passing legislation calling for Bush's impeachment, yada yada yada, I never run it, and sometimes even compose a reader of my own citing communities that have declined legislation calling for his impeachment. Most Americans polled REJECT this sort of organized impeachment, and some others at the station who go on and off about it don't speak for me.

I myself am opposed to any organized impeachment effort, even as much as I am embarrassed by this administration, and prefer general oversight and deep investigations into the Iraq war intelligence and motivations, the warrantless wiretapping program, the John Yoo memo, etc., and I'll explain why.

The nation's top priorities would be echeloned should the Democrats, or anyone in that manner dedicate their reserve of energy into such an offensive manuever. I understand Dennis Kucinich, Cynthia McKinney (thank God she's out of Congress now) and Cindy Sheehan are just three personalities who are adamant for Bush's impeachment, and I find that most disheartening.

There are many priorities that the American public deem decisively more important and essential than the consideration for grounds of impeachment; getting the government to negotiate directly with pharmaceutical companies to lower drug prices for seniors, increasing America's minimum wage from $5.15 an hour, funding renewable energy, investigating government contracts in Iraq, enacting the recommendations set by the 9/11 commission, dealing with rising tuition costs for college students, crafting policies that would allow more uninsured people to get access to health insurance, allowing prayer in public schools again, penalizing companies that hire illegal immigrants; those sorts of items which serve the wide interest of the American public beyond party lines.

I still hold that disheartening memory during President Clinton's final two years (and I'm certainly no fan of Clinton either, particularly regarding Bosnia, the Telecommunications Act and Welfare Reform, Janet Reno, etc.) when the Republicans rallied to impeach him, preferring to go after him above all else. I believe it was wrong then and I believe it is wrong now.

Cindy Sheehan certainly doesn't speak for me when she says: "We want to see the issue of impeachment" nor do I weld with the "boat-load of Americans who want impeachment on the table" coterie, as I believe there are ways in which we can hold this administration accountable in the truest, most serious sense of the word without resorting to further polarization of this nation.

The bottom line is, we have all endured heartache and loss in these recent years, and I myself continue to be emotionally affected deeply by the loss of my dearest cousin, Jeremy Shank, a corporal who died September 6th in Balad, Iraq on a dismounted security patrol when he encountered enemy forces using small arms.  I've thought about her family every day since hearing the tragic news, and it especially breaks my heart imagining how his mother Debbie copes emotionally with the loss, especially when she has continued to go through heavily emotional highs and lows since her ugly car accident eight years ago which has psychologically affected her ever since. ;crying:

Jeremy, himself, personally expressed his frustrations with the war to his friends and family, and his father Jim too has publicly continued to express his condemnations of the war in Iraq since his loss. He is just as upset as Sheehan is here, but he also has said he doesn't believe impeachment is the right direction to go, believing instead in more oversight, adding that Bush should not be spared from accountability in any form.

The Spanish writer Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra once said, "The worst reconciliation is better than the best divorce." I believe much of the American public does demand oversight and accountability, and this must happen, but most of all I believe the American public desires reconciliation; to mend all that has been divided over the past six years through both our vital checks and balances system and bi-partisanship, and doesn't want this country to continue to divorce itself.

Impeachment is one of the worst ways in going about restoring accountability to this nation, I believe, and will only stall many other top priorities in Congress that can ultimately benefit our nation.

Any of the rest of you have every right to debate the issue with me here, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
Balladeer
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153 posted 03-26-2007 05:14 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I never suggested that.

True, Noah. What you said was "So, indeed, it's traditional conservatives and libertarians that are equally as upset and angry..."  You didn't say a few...you didn't say a lot....a very safe way to go. Then you add to it in your next reply with "the fact is there are a considerable number of traditional conservatives". Hwow many zeroes are there in "considerable", sir?

Even when the GOP held the trifecta for six years and the Democrats were in the minority in every fashion, apparently it wasn't enough for you to continue focusing almost 100% of your energy upon them, while your cognitive dissidence greeted everything the other party did with a halo effect.

Noah, you can believe it or not but I focus my energy where I feel it should be directed and I do not fit Ron's example of someone who will not turn on a member of my party if I see wrongdoing. The Democrats being in the minority simply made them MORE vicious and more determined to bring Bush down. Now that they are in the majority, they are after revenge. Majority/minority, it doesn't matter. Their goal is the same...and so are their tactics.

whenever anyone even merely questions the decision-making of the president or the GOP leadership, you instantly conjure up a defensive reaction ...

That's my point, Noah. They DON'T merely question....they attack with full vigor, their press leading the charge. I would applaud a mere question if they ever had the class to ask....they don't.

and allow yourself to see this duopoly landscape entirely in black and white, rather than in lighter and darker shades of grays.

LOL! You have me there, Noah. It's  residue from my Ayn Rand days, who proclaimed that "Black is black and white is white but gray is evil". Neither she or I would make good politicians

only wish you could stop scurrying to that carapace of cognitive dissidence

That does it! If you are going to switch from English to another language, I'm not talkin' any more!

Noah, you have been a friend and you will always be a friend. I admire your passion for what you believe in even when I don't agree with it. To me and I firmly believe that to many, the Democrats have left a very visible trail of continual attacks on Bush and the  administration for years.....attacks that they abandoned as soon as they saw the American people weren't fooled or swayed by them. The attacks were not meant to be for the "good of the country".....they were meant to get Bush out of there. They have not even been good at disguising it. They want to "clean the swamp"....what a shallow and ridiculous way for a senior congressperson to speak.

Be well....
Mistletoe Angel
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154 posted 03-26-2007 06:43 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

quote:
True, Noah. What you said was "So, indeed, it's traditional conservatives and libertarians that are equally as upset and angry..."  You didn't say a few...you didn't say a lot....a very safe way to go. Then you add to it in your next reply with "the fact is there are a considerable number of traditional conservatives". Hwow many zeroes are there in "considerable", sir?


I stand by my clarification in that a considerable number of traditional conservatives and libertarians are upset on these fronts.

CATO: January 1, 2007

In fact, I believe that it was independents and libertarians especially who swung the 2006 mid-term elections toward the Democrats' favor. The latter has traditionally been a reliable, staunch Republican-leaning bloc of voters, but as this analytical article shows, compared to the previous mid-term election in 2002, libertarians have made a 24 percentage point swing to the Democratic Party within the past four years, voting for Republican congressional candidates by a margin of 47 percentage points in 2002, with the gap closed in half in 2006 by a 23-point margin.

In addition, one Zogby poll result illustrated in that analysis shows nearly half of libertarians identifying themselves under a conservative ideology. Unless for some reason all the libertarians who identified themselves as liberal or moderate happened to vote Democratic this past election and all who identified themselves as conservative voted Republican this past election, surely there's great reason to believe there was disenchantment among a chunk of the conservative bloc that's indeed "considerable" as to swing key Senate and House races.

So yes, I absolutely stand by my belief that a considerable number of both traditional conservatives and libertarians are upset. If they weren't, George Allen, Conrad Burns and Jim Talent would still be in the Senate, and I even dare say the GOP would also still have the majority in the House of Representatives.

And I can indeed see why there's a growing disenchantment with these voting blocs towards the GOP; they, along with moderate and paleoconservative Republicans, who are anything but GOP apologists that behave by their establishment's playbook, have become unfortunate victims over these past two decades and very much so over these past four years in that they are being squeezed further out of the party and replaced by those representing special interest groups like Focus On The Family and the American Family Association, those attached to corporate lobbyists from big oil and government contractors, and neoconservative hawks.

I've stated repeatedly that I believe there are many fair and independently-minded conservatives out there, and I have some conservative friends who are stationed at Fort Carson in Colorado Springs who I regularly communicate with who disagree with me on certain things but also are gravely upset with how this war is being managed and led and the executive power overreach among other things, including Randy Meador and Weston Wells.

Frankly, I'm not sure what it is that has put you in denial that any libertarian or traditional conservative is upset over these exact same constitutional issues, unless you actually believe that George Soros strapped Richard Viguerie, David Keene, Bruce Fein and other such conservative intellectuals and activists into sedon chairs and performed some sort of hypnosis on them or some other conspiracy to believe what is also believed among many liberals, moderates, Democrats and independents. But I for one believe these conservative voices are sincere in their beliefs, and I have great admiration and sympathy for them.

It is in my sincerest belief that, just like with the Democratic Party, there doesn't seem to be room for moderates and traditionalists in the GOP like there used to, and they have been in some fashions ostracized from the party. I sympathize with them to a great degree, and until the GOP establishment and its leaders return to their roots, they'll all but certainly remain in the minority for a while.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
Brad
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155 posted 03-26-2007 06:45 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Novak

And still more GOPer dissent:

quote:
Republicans in Congress do not trust their president to protect them. That alone is sufficient reason to withhold statements of support for Gonzales, because such a gesture could be quickly followed by his resignation under pressure. Rep. Adam Putnam (Fla.), the highly regarded young chairman of the House Republican Conference, praised Donald Rumsfeld in November only to see him sacked shortly thereafter.

But not many Republican lawmakers would speak up for Gonzales even if they were sure Bush would stick with him. He is the least popular Cabinet member on Capitol Hill, even more disliked than Rumsfeld was. The word most often used by Republicans to describe the management of the Justice Department under Gonzales is "incompetent."



And still they avoid the issue:

quote:
The saving grace that some Republicans find in the dispute over U.S. attorneys is that, at least temporarily, it draws attention away from debate over an unpopular war. But the overriding feeling in the Republican cloakroom is that the Justice Department and the White House could not have been more inept in dealing with the president's unquestioned right to appoint -- and replace -- federal prosecutors.

The I-word (incompetence) is also used by Republicans in describing the Bush administration generally. Several of them I talked to cited a trifecta of incompetence: the Walter Reed hospital scandal, the FBI's misuse of the USA Patriot Act and the U.S. attorneys firing fiasco. "We always have claimed that we were the party of better management," one House leader told me. "How can we claim that anymore?"


I don't know. But then again I never thought the GOP was the better manager.



Aurelian
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156 posted 03-26-2007 09:30 PM       View Profile for Aurelian   Email Aurelian   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aurelian

I think I'm voting Whig.
Balladeer
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157 posted 03-27-2007 01:02 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Frankly, I'm not sure what it is that has put you in denial that any libertarian or traditional conservative is upset over these exact same constitutional issues,

You will not be able to find anywhere here where  I said any such thing, Noah. I'm questioning your superlatives and diminuitives.  You claim a "considerable" number. I simply asked how you came up with that. You also state here that I don't think ANY conservative or libertarian is upset. I'd like to know where you came up with that, too.

Somehow you seem to believe that I am standing up for Bush, no matter what. Believe me, that's not the case. I have become more disillusioned with the current administration than you may know, ranging from the situation in Iraq to the immigration issues to other things. I think Bush has become much less than he can be, and should be, in several areas.....and, as Brad pointed out, other conservatives seem to feel the same way.

That has nothing to do with anything I have said in this thread. Regardless of Bush, I consider the tactics of the Democrat leadership to be shoddy, deplorable, untruthful and a detriment to the United States. Their actions are despicable, made even more so by their incessant drive to bring down the President of the country in the loudest, most public way they can manage, aided by a liberal press more than willing to support them. They try to instill fear and mistrust in the American people to serve their own purposes. They call for investigations of non-illegal activities. They try to put mistrust in the minds of citizens by innuendos. Foreign ownership of ports? Just think of that, Joe Sixpack! How do you know Bush's surveillance tactics are not listening to YOUR phone calls, Molly Homemaker? I have never felt more disdain for one group of individuals more than i do for the Democrat leadership....for their tactics and for their complete disregard for how their actions affect the reputation and good of the country.

My arguments are not FOR Bush....they are against this sub-human group of individuals and their methods.
Ron
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158 posted 03-27-2007 02:37 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
In a perfect, or even  reasonable, atmosphere, you make sense. It's good to be vigilant and question and run checks and balances. If wrongdoing is found, it can be corrected and prevented in the future. If it is not found, the accuser or questioner can simply say, "Thank you . It was my duty to question and I appreciate your response and explanation." We do not have that here.

LOL. So your only real complaint, Mike, is that they're not polite enough?

quote:
So basically you are saying that members of Congress are not required to speak out  against any wrongdoing if committed by a member of their own party. What does that say about "doing what's good for the country?

There are so many things "wrong" with those questions, Mike, and I really don't want to wander off-topic again, but ...

No one is ever "required" to speak out against anything. When was the last time you jumped on your cell phone and called the police because you saw someone on the freeway exceeding the speed limit? And I think instead of trying to explain what's wrong with "doing what's good for the country," I'll save some time and direct you to an author who built a whole philosophy around the concept of intelligent self-interest. Her name was Ayn Rand? :-)

Back on-topic.

I suspect if any member of Congress saw one of their own breaking the law, they would probably step up to the plate (or the tee, perhaps, if you prefer your golfing metaphors?). But that's not what we're talking about, Mike, when we talk about adversarial systems. We're not talking about wrongdoing, but rather the potential for wrongdoing.

It's a Democrat's job to turn over Republican rocks and see what's hiding behind them. And, of course, vice versa.

Here's the situation as I see it, Mike. We've hired two known thieves to guard our house while we sleep. The only way we can protect ourselves is to make sure each thief has a darn good reason (remember self interest?) to rat out his counterpart at the earliest opportunity. It's an adversarial system. We need it. Why? Because God help us if the thieves ever learn to like each other enough to cooperate.


Mistletoe Angel
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159 posted 03-27-2007 03:21 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

quote:
You will not be able to find anywhere here where  I said any such thing, Noah. I'm questioning your superlatives and diminuitives.  You claim a "considerable" number. I simply asked how you came up with that. You also state here that I don't think ANY conservative or libertarian is upset. I'd like to know where you came up with that, too.



Perhaps I wasn't specific enough with my selection of words, but I figured you got the general idea. And I can't imagine how a 24-point swing from one mid-term election to another is NOT considerable in any case.

quote:
Somehow you seem to believe that I am standing up for Bush, no matter what. Believe me, that's not the case. I have become more disillusioned with the current administration than you may know, ranging from the situation in Iraq to the immigration issues to other things. I think Bush has become much less than he can be, and should be, in several areas.....and, as Brad pointed out, other conservatives seem to feel the same way.


I certainly don't doubt your sincerity here, my friend. I simply question why it is whenever seemingly anything sprouts up that questions a motive of the administration, or puts the Administration in a defensive position, you seem to automatically dismiss it faster than I can snap my fingers as some propagandized, partisan phalanx solely organized by MoveOn and the Democratic leadership.

I'm certainly not saying whatsoever many Democrats exploit these situations to satisfy their own political means, I believe there to be Democrats in both the House, Senate and their national committee who do just that, with just some names that come to mind including Russell Feingold, Joe Biden, Harry Reid, Dennis Kucinich and Al Sharpton among others, who try and twist the rhetoric as though it legitimizes grounds for censure and impeachment among other things. I do absolutely agree that's wrong also and largely why I refuse becoming a registered Democrat in terms of principle.

However, I also believe that as much as I'd always like to believe our president and our administration are doing nothing but serving the best interests of our country every minute of every day, that is simply a naive way of thinking, and when we hear of things like warrantless wiretapping and the re-interpretation of the Geneva Conventions among other things and of any government's motives being suspect in regard to it, I believe it is our duty to investigate such matters and seek the truth, and that we can certainly do so while also dodging the artificiality politicians from both sides inject into the situation.

Gauging by the patterns of questionable motives and actions that have been commonplace during these last six years, I certainly admit I have an unfavorable view of this administration and I sharply criticize the lack of oversight the GOP-led Congress placed on the administration these past six years as well. But I don't share that bloodthirst for ultimate retaliation like those particular Democrats that make up their leadership you speak of. I just want these matters to be investigated thoroughly and for oversight to be returned so that future administrations don't try and exploit our vital checks and balances system.

USA Today: March 26, 2007

Fearmongering and slime politics aside, it is in the general interest of the American public to investigate such matters as this. This new USA Today poll reveals on questions #14-#16 that almost three-fourths of Americans believe Congress should investigate the involvement of White House officials on this matter, with over two-thirds believing the claim of executive privilege should not be invoked and that they should answer all questions being asked, and finally over two-thirds being subpoenas should be offered to White House officials to testify under oath in this particular case.

I too hope that neither party tries to unilateralize the investigations, nor inject rhetorical and slimeball questions into it. But I absolutely believe this scandal must be investigated, so that by the end of it we can either rest assured and breathe easily it was much ado about nothing, or that justice was served and we can hope others in future administrations won't try and sidestep around or make a mockery of our democratic cornerstones.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
rwood
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160 posted 03-27-2007 05:29 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood


quote:
We've hired two known thieves to guard our house while we sleep. The only way we can protect ourselves is to make sure each thief has a darn good reason (remember self interest?) to rat out his counterpart at the earliest opportunity. It's an adversarial system. We need it. Why? Because God help us if the thieves ever learn to like each other enough to cooperate.



That about sums it up for me!


Thanks Ron!
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161 posted 03-27-2007 06:23 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LOL. So your only real complaint, Mike, is that they're not polite enough?

No, Ron,my real complaint is they are not professional enough. If you wil re-read the example I gave about a co-worker (instead of dismissing it?) you will see what my real complaint is. There are right ways and wrong ways to handle things. Democrats are not interested in the right way...only the loudest way....and their points don't even have to be valid. Ok, fellow Ayn Rand reader , you tell me. What was the valid point over the squawk over the Dubai port deal? I'd like to see some justification there, if you please. That example is indicative of the majority of their rabble-rousing.....microscopic on substance, overwhelming with volume. Keep throwing mud and hope that something sticks. You call that a valid use of our checks and balances? I call it kindergarten recess. It would only be mildly irritating if there were not other things going on....but while we are fighting on multiple fronts? While these hissy fits lower us even further in the eyes of the world? Don Corleone had it right with his advice to Sonny. You keep differences in the family. You work them out but you put on a  united front to the world.

No one is ever required to speak out against anything...

Really now? True, I don't jump on my cell-phone to report speeders but a cop's duty is. One would think that a congressman's duty would be the same. Aren't they the ones we elect to safeguard the Constitution? That;s supposed to be their job....and not only when the wrongdoing they see is committed by the opposing party. Your comparison of average citizens to them is a little off the mark, I would say.

C'mon, gentlemen, you know darn well that the Democrats have been deliberately taking cheap potshots at the administration for years. If you don't want to admit it publicly, that's fine, but trying to portray it as a noble quest on their part is not something that many will swallow. It's not that they're impolite, Ron....it's that they have no class or regard for what their tactics do to the country, nor do they care.


Mistletoe Angel
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162 posted 03-27-2007 07:55 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

With all due respect, Balladeer, as long as you keep mentioning the Dubai deal, didn't not only many Republican Senators and Congressmen, but even YOU, openly criticize the deal as well?

As I recall, it was unanimously agreed that it was unfortunate this became a major, publicized issue to begin with in that it made us appear as though we were bigoted toward Arabs because we rejected their business interests while allowing others historically (though that's of course not the reason we rejected it) but we also unanimously agreed the deal wasn't a good idea because it would put the management and maintenance of OUR ports in the hands of international interests, thus that's why there was unanimous dissent toward that deal.

In my memory, there was bi-partisan dissent from the beginning on that deal in Congress. Dennis Hastert and Bill Frist, who were two of the most loyal Bush supporters on record, even publicly questioned the deal. In fact, that may have been the first time the New York Times and Sean Hannity ever agreed on anything!

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
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163 posted 03-27-2007 11:27 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I'm not sure what all the fuss is about Janet Reno..  she was one of the few Clinton Cabinet members that I thought actually perfomed well.

She actually caught Sheik Omar Abdel Rahmen, prosectued him, and got a conviction -- and didn't even have to invade a country that had nothing to do with the WTC bombings to do it.

Got the Unabomber

Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols

Eric Rudolph

and... most importantly

MICROSOFT

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164 posted 03-28-2007 10:30 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

but we also unanimously agreed the deal wasn't a good idea because it would put the management and maintenance of OUR ports in the hands of international interests

Wake up and smell the olive oil, Noah.   the majority of the management and maintenance of OUR ports IS in the hands of international interests, which the Democrats knew full well.

LR, yeah but she didn't get Wal-Mart so I can't believe you think she did a good job
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165 posted 03-28-2007 02:24 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

quote:
Wake up and smell the olive oil, Noah.    the majority of the management and maintenance of OUR ports IS in the hands of international interests, which the Democrats knew full well.


Yes, I understand that, and if you had read the rest of my previous reply closely, you would see I clearly also said "we rejected their business interests while allowing others historically."

I do remember the discussions on the Dubai Ports World deal we had in two previous threads; one which you started titled "Guess Who Is NOT Coming To Dinner" and one Lee started titled "Would Anyone Care To Comment?". You were surely consistent in your views in Lee's thread arguing that when previous presidents made similar deals with international companies and contractors and Congress and the press didn't speak up, yet this time around Congress and the press spoke up, that something suspicious and opportunistic was there beneath the surface of deciding to speak up (although you also admitted that, along with me, you didn't previously know about the British owning some of our ports already).

However, in your thread, which was started after we began digressing into other issues in Lee's thread, you said this in your opening response:

*

PipTalk Alley Flashback: Guess Who Is NOT Coming To Dinner

"So the Dubai port deal is history. I confess that I have no bad feeling about that, having fallen into the same mindset that the majority of Americans share where, forsaking  logic and reason, we come up with the formula  Arabs + ports = uneasiness. Democrats and Republicans alike, the ones who tell our security agencies that there can be no racial profiling whatsoever in dealing with airport security, are applauding themselves for saving our security from a country whose major crime seems to be that it is filled with Arabs."

*

In the rest of your opening response in that thread, you refer to "Congress", rather than simply "Democrats" or "Republicans", to validate that the dissent was bi-partisan from the beginning.

Now, as the thread goes on, beginning particularly with your next response in Response #12, you acknowledge that it was the Democrats who continued making it an issue and wouldn't drop it and actually celebrated the victory after the deal was discarded, which I strongly agreed with you in saying in Response #14 that while they had a right to make a point about increasing port security, they shouldn't use the Dubai issue to push it and should let go as the Republicans did since the deal was dead anyway.

So, as you can see, we're in absolute agreement that the Democrats were acting immature and opportunistically AFTER the Dubai deal was dead and gone to try and craft a political template to make them appear tougher on foreign policy than the Republicans with that issue. That's not what I'm questioning here.

The Washington Post: February 22, 2006

What I'm questioning is how you now are spinning the Dubai controversy INITIALLY as something that merely Democrats dissented on and made a big deal about, disregarding your previous "Democrats and Republicans alike..." and "Congress" collectively language and pretending as though the Democrats alone made it an issue, when in fact many Republicans spoke up and manuevered to halt the deal as well, with Bill Frist and Dennis Hastert in fact being two of the most fiercest voices against the deal.

That's what I mean when I questioned earlier in this thread that sometimes you just seem to speak like a GOP apologist, even while I do believe you're more fair-minded than that. That seemingly every time anything puts the administration in a defensive positioning or places a questionable aura around it, you immediately not only assume, but seem certain, that every time George Soros or MoveOn was responsible for it, and because of that you stand like some Buckingham Palace guard in front of the White House and defend them based on your instincts, or even assumptions.

There are colleagues of mine at KBOO Community Radio who do the exact same thing who I question and debate just as much as I do here; who always argue when progressives or Cindy Sheehan or (gulp) Cynthia McKinney are placed in a defensive position or negative light that Karl Rove or Dick Cheney are behind it every time, and stand like unapologetic statues in front of those like McKinney, which I too often shake my head over.

The bottom line is, some traditional conservatives and libertarians like Richard Viguerie, Bruce Fein and David Keene among plenty of others are just as outraged over the suspension of habeas corpus for suspects, warrantless wiretapping, signing statements and secret evidence in listing individuals as terrorists as many Democrats and liberals are. Not only George Soros, but over two-thirds of Americans support investigating these dismissals and having aides speak under oath without executive privilege. And YOU acknowledged yourself that "Democrats and Republicans alike..." applauded the halting of the Dubai deal.  

I'm somewhat impartial to olive oil, but you bet I've smelled the red palm oil today. I cook quite a South Pacific stir-fry with it!

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

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166 posted 03-28-2007 03:50 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Yep, in that thread you highlighted, Noah, I DID refer to "Congress".

Do you feel that the Democrats jumped on this because of security concerns for the country? Or is it because they saw an opportunity, a platform, to use to bolster their image on national security, which is viewed as a very weak point of theirs. The Republicans jumped on it because (1) the Democrats were getting coverage with it and (2) they were irritated that they learned of it from the news media instead of the White House.....all politics. Even as late as yesterday, after the matter had been resolved, the Democrats were calling for a vote on it, for no other reason than to show THEY were responsible for stopping it....all sleazy politics and on both sides.

The Republicans, in their CYA mode, did pipe up on the issue, as a RESPONSE to the Democrat hysteria and even Bush buckled, which I have never excused him for. The fact still remains that it shouldn't have been an issue at all and would not have been, had the 'crats not seen another way of going after the admin. Howard Dean called the reversal a "great victory in our war against terror." I certainly did admit that the deal did give me an immediate gut reaction, just by virtue of the fact of having the words "Muslims" and "ports" in the same sentence but that's a far cry from the frenzy Dean and other went into. I repeat, the Republicans and Bush not shutting them down was not their finest hour.

In that thread, even Ron called it (gasp!) "SILLY"!! Need we say more???

Me? A Buckingham Palace guard, Noah? Are those the guys who are so well-known for never speaking?  NOT LIKELY!!!
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167 posted 03-28-2007 05:33 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Fair enough on that Buckingham rebuttal!

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

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168 posted 03-28-2007 08:06 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

But she did dispatch that illegal immigrant Elian Gonzales????
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169 posted 07-03-2007 10:53 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

And, alas, dear Skewtear serves less jail time than Paris Hilton, or Martha Stewart.

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170 posted 07-04-2007 01:52 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

You sure you want to go there, reb? a cutesy remark worth it?
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171 posted 07-04-2007 09:01 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

What can you possibly have to offer in defense Mike?  Unless you want to point the finger at somebody else.  Not a defense.

Of course here's the not-so-cute remarks;

Less jail time than Judith Miller.
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172 posted 07-04-2007 11:07 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

I'm sure this isn't the first time in these forums, but were we right? Or were we right?


the rest is still yet to unfold.

stay tuned for the next segment of

As America Turns.


Happy Independence Day!!
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173 posted 07-04-2007 02:56 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

Being Canadian I read these forums with interest as Americans have real "spunk" when it comes to their politics, and I enjoy all the inter-action and exchange of your political ideas.  We don't have the same jest for that up here as you do down there I am afraid.

My first trip to the USA, and every subsequent one, has been in and around the 4th of July.  I love this day down there as this to me anyway, what America stands for.  You all sure proudly show it off on this particular day for the world to witness, and it's wonderful to see all the flags, and fireworks displayed with pride.  

So if I may, along with Reggie, I wanted to  wish you all a very wonderful Independence Day.  I also made a wish that your troops get the heck out of there as soon as possible.

p.s. If I tell you that I am a die-hard Liberal - don't shoot me!

Mistletoe Angel
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174 posted 07-04-2007 03:55 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



Hey Sharon! I am absolutely glad you've shared your thoughts here as well, as I too absolutely agree this day epitomizes exactly how treasured our right to speak our thoughts and minds openly is here, a right I actually believe is universal yet sadly is thwarted in many developing countries worldwide, including Nepal, Uzbekistan and Uganda just to name several.

I believe, also, we all share your prayer for getting our troops out of Iraq; all of us here are merely divided over how we go about doing so. I am in favor of a more immediate phased withdrawal to be completed by the end of this year, as I have opposed this war from the beginning and believe this war is already lost and is a total disaster personally, whereas several others here believe in either staying there until the al-Maliki government proves it can function on its own or, more generically and more bluntly, "staying the course" or staying there until the "job is done".

And no, no one here's going to shoot you in that you happen to be a die-hard liberal, LOL, nor if anyone here declared oneself to be a die-hard neo-conservative, for as much as I disagree, and frankly condemn, the foreign policy ideals and philosophies of the neo-cons, I also believe beyond the opinions and ideals of each individual, whether it's Dennis Kucinich or Richard Perle, there is that human being we often overlook or take for granted when speaking our minds aloud, and that deep down I believe we have much more in common than we have differences; we all desire nothing but the best for our children at heart, we all here appreciate the grandness of the written word and poetic spirit, we all here will love a little bit of country and a little bit of rock and roll, etc. (smiles) So, essentially, I believe it's important we celebrate both our commonalities and differences, as that's what makes us a community after all.

By the way, I've been celebrating our country's right to speak our minds openly by writing a new tongue-in-cheek poem about the whole Libby commutation ordeal titled "Scooter & The Commuter", which I won't post in Open as I prefer to post only lighter fare during the summer, but will probably post here!

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
 
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