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LeeJ
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since 06-19-2003
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25 posted 02-08-2007 03:22 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

my son served, and lots of other young people I know who ended up making careers out of it...or gaining a career from it...

I asked my son what he thought about a manditory draft and his reply was

I think it's a great idea...it helps to mature young folks, give them a sense of responsibility, gives them direction and a sense of the endless opportunities out there, they might otherwise not know they had.  

Edward Grim
Senior Member
since 12-18-2005
Posts 1112
Greenville, South Carolina


26 posted 02-08-2007 04:19 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

I certainly mean no disrespect to either you or your son. But quite frankly, I'd expect him to say that. Not only was he in the army but I'm sure he wanted to join to begin with and judging by your reply, he's probably still in it. That's great that he got a lot out of it. I absolutley applaud him, you have a lot to be proud of. But consider if he didn't want to enlist and he was forced to. Forcing someone to do something against their will doesn't sound like a great idea to me.

And I said to the devil, "You better leave my spleen alone."

jbouder
Member Elite
since 09-18-99
Posts 2641
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


27 posted 02-08-2007 05:21 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Edward:

quote:
The American Military is a group of bullies who stick their noses and guns into other people's affairs.


Nice.  All Jews are cheap, all Muslims are terrorists, all Africans are savages, all gay men are prissy, all lesbians sport mullets, all Asians are good at math, all Mexicans are lazy, and, of course, all American military men are bullies who stick their noses and guns into other people's affairs.  My father ran radar picket in the South Pacific so he could sink the ships of the poor empirial Japanese.  My maternal grandfather was a medic at Normandy and Bastogne so he could fix up his wounded, fellow bullies so they could stick their guns and noses in German affairs.

Hmmm.  To quote "The Onion" ... "Stereotyping is a real time saver."  I guess the only difference is that it was funny when it's obviously a joke.  Otherwise, it is just plain sad.

Jim
Edward Grim
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since 12-18-2005
Posts 1112
Greenville, South Carolina


28 posted 02-08-2007 06:17 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

Wow Jimbo,

"All Jews are cheap, all Muslims are terrorists, all Africans are savages, all gay men are prissy, all lesbians sport mullets, all Asians are good at math, all Mexicans are lazy"

That's not a very good view of people. Funny you didn't have anything bad to say about the white man. You might want to rethink your views on stereotyping.

Here's where you messed up:

"American military men are bullies."

Didn't say that. I said the organization, not the individuals. The soldiers just do what they're told; they're just doing their job. The high brass is wrong, not so much the service men actually fighting. And happy to hear that about your dad and grandad. My family was very deep in the military back in the old days as well. I don't really know a family who doesn't have members who didn't try their hand in military. Another thing, I am talking about today Jimmy. Obviously the world wars and wars with purpose weren't butting in where we didn't belong. You're confused with what era I'm in. I'm talking about when we do butt in where we don't belong. I condemn how the military conducts themself today, not forty or fifty years ago. Let's stick to the subject shall we.

And I said to the devil, "You better leave my spleen alone."

LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
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29 posted 02-08-2007 06:59 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Ed, you said "I certainly mean no disrespect to either you or your son. But quite frankly, I'd expect him to say that. Not only was he in the army but I'm sure he wanted to join to begin with and judging by your reply, he's probably still in it. That's great that he got a lot out of it. I absolutley applaud him, you have a lot to be proud of. But consider if he didn't want to enlist and he was forced to. Forcing someone to do something against their will doesn't sound like a great idea to me."

My son is no longer in the Air Force, but is now a police officer.  What he meant is, this...a lot of people who come into the military are from low income families...not all, but the majority of them, therefore, they don't realize the many options available to them...all they see is poverty and drugs, they want out, but they don't know how.  The military rears them to maturity, to respect themselves, in turn, they respect others, gaining confidence, and an insight that there is nothing they cannot accomplish if they put they're minds and hearts into it.  

David, my son, was floundering upon graduation, and had no idea at that time what he wanted to do with his life.  There was an Air Force recruiter (Rick)working down the hall from me.  We became friends...
I went home and discussed what Rick relayed to me, and suggested that David stop in and talk with Rick...just to learn more about the issue, that maybe it might be another option to explore.  He did, and after about a month or two of thinking it through, he joined.  David at that time, didn't possess the confidence then, that he did when he came home.  He left a child and came home a man.  He also was very tall and slumped himself over for years, to feel smaller and fit in with the other kids...the military taught him to stand up straight.  Also, he was shy, soft spoken...now, he's simply weighing issues, options and situations over in his mind...he looks at the entire picture before he concludes.  Actually, I wish I could be more like him, and that is the truth.  

The military gave him options...helped him be confident and not fear decissions he made...knowing it was all about trial and error...it gave him career options, and the ability to learn how to fly, to learn languages, to continue education while in...to also learn agility, and a whole lot more.  

There is good and bad in everything on this planet, good and bad people, good and bad in organizations, our work force, good and bad food, (trans fats)   (by the way, I really loved those trans fats)  unfortunately it isn't all good, but, the military also taught him to deal with that realistically.  

I think, a manditory draft would be a great way to teach kids what parents cannot give them or know nothing about...and I also think, if the draft were manditory and everyone's kid had to serve two years, those who are way to quick to go to war, might also rethink their decissions to do so, if it meant their son or grandson going.  Also, all those kids who go in for two years, well, I betcha when they came out, the majority would say, they were glad they had the opportunity to do so...and you might be surprised, how many would make the military their career.  

I think a strong military has a great trickle effect on a lot of other things, such as truth, respect for others, realizing the importance of team work, patience, intellectual skills...etc

While they were in the military, if we had a disaster here in the U.S. we would certainly once again have troops to respond and help rebuild.  We would have troops to help reinforce our boarders...a strong military is a strong country, with a knowlege of how to survive.  

Again, remember, we are forced to go to school, forced to pay taxes, so, going into the military for 2 years, is not going to hurt anyone.  

Now, tell me, if you will, why  you deem the entire military organization bullies?

Some of the finest men and women on the face of this earth Ed, are lifers in the military and they are not bullies, but well trained human beings...

So tell me, if you would be so kind, what frightens you about the military?

thanks for your reply




Edward Grim
Senior Member
since 12-18-2005
Posts 1112
Greenville, South Carolina


30 posted 02-08-2007 08:07 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

Lee, I have no doubt that a lot of people get a great deal out of the military. I never said otherwise. I believe that if the military is truly your calling then you will join the military. Just how you described to me how you got your son into it. That was a great thing you did. Why should others not have the option like he did? Do you really think things would have turned out the way they did if he wasn't gradually introduced into it? If he was just thrown right into the army with absolutely no say?

"I think, a mandatory draft would be a great way to teach kids what parents cannot give them or know nothing about...and I also think, if the draft were mandatory and everyone's kid had to serve two years, those who are way to quick to go to war"

I think you need to reword that. I think what you mean to say is "the ARMY would be a great way to teach kids what parents cannot give them or know nothing about" not mandatory draft.

"Again, remember, we are forced to go to school, forced to pay taxes, so, going into the military for 2 years, is not going to hurt anyone. "

Very true, very true. But you can't get far in life without school and paying taxes is the law (Al Capone didn't get that   ). But you understand that people get very far in life without the military so it can't be compared to school. And joining the army isn't the law so you can't compare it to paying taxes. Now what if they forced people to be medical guinea pigs to help test new vaccines? Yes, they would be doing a good thing for the world by testing new drugs to save lives but they should not be forced to do it.

"Now, tell me, if you will, why you deem the entire military organization bullies?"

I believe I already listed a few reasons. And of course the whole of the military is not in the wrong. They just seem to have their "priorities" out of control right now and I don't expect it to better any time soon.

"So tell me, if you would be so kind, what frightens you about the military?"

Lol, ma'am the only things that frighten me are Communism, drug addicts and blood. I do not "fear" the military, that would be ridiculous. I simply don't believe in killing people or being trained to kill people or supporting an association who would rather settle their disputes with heavy artillery rather than words. Nor would I condone a law that forces a person into any organization, whether that be waste management, medical testing, or the military.


And I said to the devil, "You better leave my spleen alone."
hush
Senior Member
since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


31 posted 02-09-2007 08:00 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Scared of drug addicts? Really? Why?

I would think the addiction would be scarier than the addict.

Lee-

'Again, remember, we are forced to go to school, forced to pay taxes, so, going into the military for 2 years, is not going to hurt anyone.'

Uh... really? Tell that to the families of our dead servicemen and women shipped home in a box from Iraq.

Would women be included in this mandatory draft?
Edward Grim
Senior Member
since 12-18-2005
Posts 1112
Greenville, South Carolina


32 posted 02-09-2007 10:40 AM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

Hush,

I've had some experiences with them and I don't really want to get into it.

"Would women be included in this mandatory draft?"

Good question.

And I said to the devil, "You better leave my spleen alone."

LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
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33 posted 02-09-2007 12:08 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Hush
Uh... really? Tell that to the families of our dead servicemen and women shipped home in a box from Iraq.

No one wants to or should loose a child..but in regards to you comment, most, "not all" but most parents say....it's what he/she wanted to do...and they accept it...as I would have to if something happened to my son.

yanno Hush, if everyone felt as you do, and this is a sincere question, not a mockery, or insult, but a question...who would be there to protect our country in the event of an invasion?  If everyone felt like you & Ed do, there would be no one in the military?  I don't get that?  Honest, I don't understand why especially in times when there are no wars going on, why a manditory draft would be so offensive?  I would think, most people, not all, would be proud to serve their country...would want the benefits the military has to offer?  

I guess I've simply got blinders on?

  
  
Would girls be included in the draft?

Yes....absolutely yes
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


34 posted 02-09-2007 12:28 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

It would be MANdatory that women are drafted.

A citizen is a citizen.

LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
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35 posted 02-09-2007 12:53 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

yes women have fought for so long for equal rights...hey, they can go in locker rooms after professional football games, parents fight for their daughters to play varsity football, baseball and basketball....????  Why not have a manditory draft for women, I think it would be really a great experience for all American's youth.

Besides, my son's friend Nancy is a single mother, in the Airforce for life, she loves it.  She is a fantastic mother, an asset to her community, a very feminine gal, blond, and pretty and has been dating a pilot for 3 years now.  Not that this has anything to do with the discussion, I'm just so happy for her.

Edward Grim
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since 12-18-2005
Posts 1112
Greenville, South Carolina


36 posted 02-09-2007 12:54 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

"who would be there to protect our country in the event of an invasion?  If everyone felt like you & Ed do, there would be no one in the military?"

I don't think you quite get what I'm saying. There will always be a military. There is a strong military now without a mandatory draft. I never said or even implied that we should dissolve our military. That would be a ridiculous idea. Obviously we need a military, there's no question about that. It's how we use it and right now, the military is being abused; our military power is being abused.

"Honest, I don't understand why especially in times when there are no wars going on"

Last time I checked, we're in a war. And our next targets are already lined up (Korea, Iran ect.) When won't we be at war? You asked what we would tell the 2008 presidential candidates at which time you said mandatory draft. Do you think war will be over by 2008? I don't.


"I would think, most people, not all, would be proud to serve their country"

A person should be proud to serve their country, not be forced to serve their country.  To serve means to offer. It's not an offering if the person has no choice on the matter.

And I said to the devil, "You better leave my spleen alone."

rwood
Member Elite
since 02-29-2000
Posts 3797
Tennessee


37 posted 02-10-2007 09:17 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

LeeJ~ There is a dark side to everything. I've been around the military all my life. Several generations of soldiers in my family. Grew up on military posts. Married a military man. Do I have respect for the military? Yes. I respect every known and unknown effort in their duty of protecting this country as servicemen and servicewomen. They will tell you that many alongside them with weapons in their hands do not deserve to be or need to be in the military. TheCommanding Officers will tell you this. The soldiers will tell you this. Not everyone belongs in the military and many are ticking bombs with loaded weapons or they are users and abusers of the system, and they are a threat to themselves and the platoons they serve with. Think about it. Would you want to go to war with someone forced to be in your company or someone who will follow orders and serve with their minds and their hearts in the right place? Please don't generalize on patriotism. Not everyone loves his/her country or else we wouldn't have to hire Hispanics to tend and harvest our crops.

My grandfather lost his farm years ago due to the fact that he couldn't PAY anyone local to come and work for him. The ones that did stole his equipment. The Hispanics have saved many farms and they work circles around the locals here, so while I do agree they need to be legal in every sense of the word, I can't knock their work ethic in my community. When one of the locals died, his wife had to harvest in mourning, as a widow in the field. The Hispanics showed up and helped her harvest (for free)her crop which was the only source of her income for the year. So on an agricultural level, the Hispanics ARE helping this country, and I suspect there are several other arenas they are thriving in because I've been on the hiring side and I couldn't get citizens to SHOW UP on the job. Whether that be construction, factory, or sub-contracting. The rest is a red-tape mess for institutions to start weeding through with more expertise than you or I have.

Mandatory draft? How 'bout mandatory mater pickers? Of course I'm being sarcastic, but if you can't get a red-blooded American to help with the supply and demand of our nation's food sources, then something is wrong, on the ground level, you know? Something is very wrong and forcing someone to fight for their country when they wouldn't work the soil if they had to is a character flaw that doesn't belong in any army.

hush
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since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


38 posted 02-10-2007 10:13 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

'yanno Hush, if everyone felt as you do, and this is a sincere question, not a mockery, or insult, but a question...who would be there to protect our country in the event of an invasion?'

If everyone felt as I do (that there shouldn't be a mandatory draft) the same amount of people would be there as there are now... they joined up without a draft.

'No one wants to or should loose a child..but in regards to you comment, most, "not all" but most parents say....it's what he/she wanted to do...and they accept it...as I would have to if something happened to my son.'

That's the point. If their kids did it on their own free will, that's one thing. But if every kid was drafted after high school- if my kid was drafted into the armed forces unwillingly, and killed in duty... that would not be my response. I don't even want to imagine what my response would be.

Ed pretty much said what I was going to- not everyone is suited for the military. You did construction- what if everyone was drafted into construction? You think they would all like it? I'm a nurse, and I went to school with people who wanted to be nurses and weren't cut out for it... would you want to be forced to be a nurse? And, if people are forced into a certain career (even for a mere two years) that they didn't want to do, how do you think it would affect the quality of work being turned out by that group of employees (or soldiers)?
LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
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39 posted 02-10-2007 02:42 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Rwood and Hush
thanks so much for your comments...and I do understand what you are saying and know what you have both offered to be true...

surely I don't mean to sound biggoted I simply feel if you want to live in America, it should be done legally and by the system.

rwood, I know what you've stated about some in the service with weapons in their hands shouldn't have been there, b/c my son also told me the same...but it is not the majority of servicemen/women with that type of mentality. And yes indeed there are some users and abusers as in all things...I believe I stated that before...

Also, as well as there are some mightly fine people who are kind, caring people, there are those who run drugs, and use the system to cheat the American Tax Payers.


My thoughts are not so closed that I'm thinking this manditory draft would force people into careers they do not like.  I'm simply saying, if there was a manditory draft for lets say 18 months to 2 years...in that time, lots of kids would learn what kids today are not learning at home from their parents.  

You hope that when they are through, the military would keep records on all who served, and weed those that are not suited for the military out...I'm also thinking there would perhaps be programs that would upon that time, counsel with these kids as to furthering their careers in many different fields other then the military, it would be their choice, and at that time, I believe you might have a lot more kids enter college then would if they hadn't served in the military.

I simply think and believe a manditory draft would initiate a lot of inspiration in these kids...give them options...and a sort of stop over for a while to  help them look at their lives and options with much more confidence in themselves, believing there isn't anything they can't do, if they work for it.

Are you aware of the benefits offered by the military towards college credits, etc?  Sorry, I didn't mean to generalize on patriotism...but I just find it to be a good system to get a kid's head on straight.  

Also, I do believe a lot of reason why people in America won't work the crops is because it surely doesn't pay that much and we've become a very materialistic society, therefore, people need to make more then the Hispanic/Latinos make because they don't need to live in $500,000.00 homes.  They know how to impravise and live quit humbly.

Also, I believe there are many many good people who come here from other countries...that are great workers and yes, can work circles around Americans...because they were poor and they want to work...today, we Americans take so much for granted and need to be paid so much more then we are really worth. Sorry, but I feel that is true.  We are not humble and forget what it is to be poor.  We today, can purchase anything we want without money...on time and with credit cards.  Its certainly a different generation, that cannot do without.

Anyway, I chose to work construction, b/c I was a single mom, and all my life worked on farms and with horses so I felt I had the strength to do so...it was good money, which left me home on weekends & evenings with my son, unlike waitress work, no benifits and all kinds of hours.

Also, I don't believe when it comes down to it, anyone wants to go to war, fight and kill...do you?  What I mean is, do you actually believe that men and women want to leave their families, go to another country to fight and kill people?  

I just think and honestly believe, that every man and woman child, of every nationality should have to serve another 2 years of their lifes, learning dicipline.  Meaning, all children, even those who are here illegally.  

In the end, when they're time has been served, they can leave and go on to any career or college of their choice...hopefully with some good advice from counselors set up in the military to help get them going.  

I really believe, if everyone once again, had to serve for a small amount of time, it might help shape some into better citizens, by learning how to be mature, patient, adults who can now problem solve with confidence, not looking for quick fixes and realize they've done something totally different from what they were used to.  

Yes, indeed, not everyone would be cut out for it...but would that be the majority?  

To me, a manditory draft would be like a school, and surely not worse for wear for most kids. I'm not talking about forcing them into any career...

and yes, absolutely, there is good and bad in everything...always always...you've always had people out there since the beginning of time, using others to get rich quick or gain power...who are mentally so self absorbed they can see  nothing else, but maybe the military might even help some of those people understand it takes teamwork, to be strong and get things done?
I dunno, I just see our systems failing, due to corruption and a lot of people who cannot think clearly for themselves...dishonesty, and a great deal of stealing from the people, the taxpayers...and I believe the military would once again, help to bring back something that's been missing in our society.  I could be wrong, but I believe if the hearts in the right place, it would be worth a try.  Just to see how it works out...

Thanks again sincerely to you both for your replies.  


JL
Member Ascendant
since 04-01-2004
Posts 5938
Texas, USA


40 posted 02-11-2007 07:51 PM       View Profile for JL   Email JL   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JL

Lee J, after much thought on what you have said I havenít much to say except I am afraid your brilliant points are a few years too late, probably more like 40 years.  This country of ours took a turn to the left (socialism) with the death of Kennedy, and the presidency of Johnson.  Corruption is rampant in high places, and money is the key to power.  Each and every year the tide of change in the direction of degradation is harder and harder to keep at bay.  More schools of higher learning are teaching rules of promiscuity; itís not how you are promiscuous or how much, but how to make it more appealing, acceptable, and more commonplace.  The moral fiber that made this country great, and the belief in Godís word as the foundation of our laws has been drowned out by the voices of faulty science and so called progressive thought.  Yes, this countryís governments have made some poor choices, no doubt.  But overall we had it right for many, many years.  Assuredly, you have echoed many sentiments of many people in this country.  But dear heart, it is beyond our ability to turn this nation around.  Prayer would help but for only a few years before this country is totally in the hands of the foolish.  All I can say is God help us.

You make very good points Lee J.
HUG!

JL



Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed:
blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
~Jesus Christ
hush
Senior Member
since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


41 posted 02-12-2007 08:25 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

What if I don't want my kids learning what the military has to teach them? Not everyone who enters the military leaves for the better.
LeeJ
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since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
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42 posted 02-12-2007 08:37 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

ya know what Hush...I REALLY didn't want my son to join the military...I REALLY didn't want my son to go to Saudi...I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY (especially with the attitudes of people today of let someone else do it and the criminals are felt sorry for first) did't want my son to become a police officer.

I hate the fact that my son is out there, putting his life on the line every single day, protecting you and your family, and me and everyone, and he is forced to ride alone, due to cut backs and not enough money for funding so they cannot hire more officers...after all, it is so much more important to put the money into special interest groups like people against smoking, yanno

I HATE the fact that his buddy (a cop) got shot Friday night, doing his job....a simple routine stop...I HATE the fact that my son's got a 4 year old daughter and he's out there putting his life on the line protecting people, who prefer to put our heads in the sand and pretend it isn't going on or really happening around us, or to us....until, of course, WE need a COP, then it's a whole different story...I hate the fact that some say, "It takes a very special person to be a police officer"  Why does my son have to be so special???????

I HATE the FACT that MORE and MORE CRIMINALS are Illegal IMMEGRANTS carrying guns, running drugs, driving without licenses, or car insurance...and yet a police officer is not allowed to ask if they are a citizen of the U.S.???????

butcha know what, it isn't always about what WE as parents want...there are some things we must do and face regardless of if we want them or not...sometimes life can be uncomfortable, unsafe, & hurtful, the unknown of tomorrows facing us....

and yes, some do not come out better, but it is not the majority that that happens to...it starts in the beginning, with the parents and how they raise they're kids....

in the end, kids are kids and they are going to do what they want, regardless of what the situation is, there is a time when a parent must let them go, to make their own mistakes and learn from them, some will be hard mistakes, and some not so hard...but the fact of the matter is...most kids go into the military and return better for it...more able to cope with reality...more able to confidently pick a career and realize, that if they want something, it isn't always fair to expect mom and dad to carry the load...they learn team work, how to be leaders, how to be listeners...they get to decide...regardless what we think or want for them...and we shouldn't try to put fear in our children, fear to do something that is not part of our own condiditoning....we should encourage them to branch out...as I said, a manditory draft would be only an additional 18 months to 2 years out of their lives...

Hey JL...
Thanks so much for your offerings and comment...
Yes, unfortunately I gravely fear you are right and this coutry is in danger and we have only ourselves to blame.  We...will be I fear, our own demise.  

[This message has been edited by LeeJ (02-12-2007 11:21 AM).]

rhia_5779
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Posts 1304
California


43 posted 02-20-2007 06:14 AM       View Profile for rhia_5779   Email rhia_5779   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rhia_5779

Does everyone have to serve? ARe there any exceptions at all?
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