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Passions in Poetry

The Quran Quontroversy

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rhia_5779
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75 posted 02-24-2007 05:08 PM       View Profile for rhia_5779   Email rhia_5779   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rhia_5779

any exorcisists or speaker to the dead people here?

going once, going twice..gone..

No takers?
fascinating
Denise
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76 posted 02-25-2007 04:19 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

You could probably get a pretty good understanding of their definition of those considered by them to be innocents not deserving of death by reading what they have written. Simple as that. No supernatural abilities required.
Ron
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77 posted 02-25-2007 12:46 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
You could probably get a pretty good understanding of their definition of those considered by them to be innocents not deserving of death by reading what they have written.

I disagree. Get a "pretty good understanding" of what they wrote by reading what they have written? That's just circular floundering.

Muslim or Christian, the only way to determine what a person believes is to look at their actions. What they do is a reflection of who they are and what they believe. And, in my opinion, it's the only reliable reflection.


Stephanos
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78 posted 02-25-2007 03:37 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Ron:
quote:
I disagree. Get a "pretty good understanding" of what they wrote by reading what they have written? That's just circular floundering.

Hold on a minute ...  Could you be imagining a circle where there isn't one?  The discussion with denise (at that precise moment) wasn't concerning interpretation, as much as it was asking what was written (a pre-requisite for interpretation).  Rhia was the one who pretty much assumed that a Muslim's idea of innocence is similar to ours, and expected us to follow.  I agree that actions are even more important than words, but words often lead to action as well.  What if Mohammed believes that those who refuse to convert to Islam are "infidels" and that they are not innocent?


Your watertight separation of doctrine and action seems arbitrary, and one which most Muslims themselves would find incomprehensible.


Stephen.      
Denise
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79 posted 02-25-2007 08:09 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Thank you, Stephen. You've expressed my point much better than I did.
Ron
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80 posted 02-25-2007 11:14 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
What if Mohammed believes that those who refuse to convert to Islam are "infidels" and that they are not innocent?

Then every good Muslim would be a murderer. Is that what we see, though?

We can play what-if all night long, Stephen and Denise, but the fact remains that millions of people with presumably a lifetime of understanding seem to interpret the text differently than you do. I see no good reason to think this is greatly different than the millions of Christians who interpret the Bible non-literally and within the context of the whole. I understand why Christians do that. I don't understand fully why Muslims do much the same, but I'd like to think they have equally compelling reason.


Denise
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81 posted 02-26-2007 06:31 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

That's not what it would mean if Muhammad said that, Ron. It would simply give us and understanding of his definitions of innocence and guilt.
rwood
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82 posted 02-26-2007 07:12 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

"Blessed are they that do His Commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and wh*remongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." (Revelation 22:14-15 KJV)

I'm not sure I see much difference between infidels and dogs, and if we take things literally, I'm sure there are many who think they will have a heavenly tree house some day.

Oops. The bible got censored by PIP system.
Stephanos
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83 posted 02-26-2007 03:40 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

rwood:
quote:
I'm not sure I see much difference between infidels and dogs, and if we take things literally, I'm sure there are many who think they will have a heavenly tree house some day.


The difference is, who is doing the separation?  God or us?  Saying that there are wicked people, and saying that we should kill them, are two different things.  God, being God, has the prerogative to say who is worthy of Heaven and Hell.  This verse cannot be compared with Koranic prescriptions to violence, simply because it isn't a prescription to violence ... but merely a picture of final destiny at the Judgement of God.  


Stephen.


Stephanos
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84 posted 02-26-2007 03:53 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Ron:
quote:
I see no good reason to think this is greatly different than the millions of Christians who interpret the Bible non-literally and within the context of the whole. I understand why Christians do that. I don't understand fully why Muslims do much the same, but I'd like to think they have equally compelling reason.


What you fail to mention is that there are texts which were meant to be figurative, and meant to be literal.  Ignorance and sin often make us ill equipped (or unwilling) to rightly divide the word of truth.


But if such a personal / moral phenomenon is at work in the interpretation of texts with Christians, I have no doubt the same is true of Muslims.  But there is no use denying what is plainly written at times ... Nor is there any use denying that people may veer from their religion for moral (or immoral) reasons.  I'm only noting that this is what seems to be going on with Muslims who do not recognize Koranic prescriptions to violence.


We're going in circles now.  Let's agree to disagree?


Stephen.  

[This message has been edited by Stephanos (02-26-2007 06:09 PM).]

rwood
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85 posted 02-26-2007 05:04 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

I was addressing Denise's terms of innocence and guilt.

I agree, on the nature of violence, there isn't any prescribed in that verse.

But one's prescription for violence or fanaticism depends entirely on how seriously and literally one takes the scripture.

People can somehow turn it into their own prescription and see it as a way to condemn others whether it's spelled out for them or not.

I take it very seriously when people tell me I'm going to die and burn in hell. They've prescribed a death to me and use scripture to back it up, fully believing I'm lost already, so how hard is it for them think that killing me is just putting me out of my misery and they're doing God a favor?

Many psychopaths use this scripture to make people pay: "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23 KJV."

To many, anyone who does not accept God's gift, they're walking dead, and won't simply NOT go to heaven, they will be tortured in a fiery hell. That's pretty violent.

So if it's God prescribing the death and torture, or Mohammad, or hell-bent weirdos, I don't like it but They and It exist in scripture.
Stephanos
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86 posted 02-26-2007 05:52 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

rwood:
quote:
I take it very seriously when people tell me I'm going to die and burn in hell. They've prescribed a death to me and use scripture to back it up, fully believing I'm lost already, so how hard is it for them think that killing me is just putting me out of my misery and they're doing God a favor?



No one knows if you are actually going to die and burn in Hell.  What the Bible teaches is that Hell is a possibility for any of us.  We're all "lost already" and in need of God's forgiveness and grace.  Can these scriptures be used in such a way, as to hurt others?  Sure.  But the Bible warns about that too.  And that's my point.


quote:
Many psychopaths use this scripture to make people pay: "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23 KJV."


But still, this is not prescriptive, but a statement of fact.  If anyone uses it as prescriptive, it can be shown from the text of the Bible that they are in error.


quote:
To many, anyone who does not accept God's gift, they're walking dead, and won't simply NOT go to heaven, they will be tortured in a fiery hell. That's pretty violent.



Tortured by whom?  God, or Satan, or their own conscience?  You have to understand that being shut out from the presence of God, becomes a fiery pit by it's very nature.  It doesn't have to be maliciously imposed from without.  As C.S. Lewis once noted about Hell, the doors are locked from within.  From a Christian perspective, there is no worse fate than denying Heaven.  For what is goodness, and life, and beauty, is God.  And hell is simply the residue of what is "outside".  


And I'm really not interested in defending God in this thread (Though the cross of Jesus is pretty good sign that God isn't malicious, but willing to go to extremes to save from Hell) My only argument is that the Bible places such judgement in his hand, not ours.  And that's enough to say that the Bible places eternal judgement out of our reach, and gives us no part in the determination ... other than helping others to enter at the narrow gate, or making them stumble by our words and actions.  


Stephen.  

  
Alicat
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87 posted 02-26-2007 07:07 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

From Noah's initial post:

quote:
So what are your thoughts on this whole matter in general, including the debate of religious freedom vs. preservation of traditional ideals, Muslims in Congress, etc.?



Since the moment done came and went without the estimated bruhaha, there were some interesting things learned.  First off, there's a general Swearing-In ceremony with all the freshmen in a group.  Then, if the incoming legislators so desire they can have a second 'ceremony' with just them, the house leader and a large tome...oh, and a camera and professional photographer paid for by our taxes.  But the second ceremony is not mandatory, though historically traditional and an all-around unique gift idea for the home or office.

Of course, now I'm curious how many pseudo religious wars have been fought in those hallowed halls during Swearing In ceremonies regarding the version, printing and revision of the Bible.  KJV, NIV, RSV 3rd ed 253rd printing?  With red ink to emphasize the lines attributed to Christ, or all black ink?  What type of cover?

Might be silly, but churches have had evil nasty we-don't-consort-with-them-there schisms over less, such as pew cushions or hardwood bench and if so, what color.

With all that said, I didn't have a problem with the Koran being used for the photo shoot any more than I would have a problem with the Book of Mormon or the New Revised King James Children's Version Pop-up Bible.  Didn't then and don't now.

[This message has been edited by Alicat (02-26-2007 09:10 PM).]

rwood
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88 posted 02-28-2007 07:00 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Stephen,

Thanks. You and I have an understanding of the bible that removes the power or wrath from individuals to do harm to others through the same scripture that others empower themselves with to hurt people or scare people into submission, in God's name.

Followers of Christ can and do try to promote love and peace. We're not always very good at it. We are human, after all. And with that I pray any person of any faith will take it upon themselves to promote love and peace, over and above anything else they may find in scripture, especially that which they believe will make them close to their God.



 
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