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Do We Pull Out?

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Balladeer
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0 posted 01-07-2007 09:50 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer


MSNBC announced this morning that more people were killed in New Orleans last week than soldiers in Iraq.

So do we pull out of New Orleans?
Denise
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1 posted 01-07-2007 11:29 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I guess sometimes the MSM does put things into proper perspective. I'd like to see more of that.

I heard a report a couple years back (but on FOX, I think) that it was safer to be in Baghdad than NYC. I don't know the current stats between the two.

But I suspect that if the media harped daily on casualty figures during WWII we'd all be speaking German today. And I suspect that Viet Nam would not have fallen to the communists except for the influence of the media on public opinion.

The media does do some good though, I suppose. I decided to go on the computer rather than continue listening to a program referring to Iraq as a quagmire and Tony Blair as walking lockstep with Bush as if it were gospel truth and not just their opinion.  Being on the computer is a much better use of my time!  
Mistletoe Angel
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2 posted 01-07-2007 03:53 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Well, Cindy Sheehan says that New Orleans is being occupied by our troops and military and governmental fascism has gone out of control there so, yes, we should pull out of there immediately before the freedom fighters start flooding the area!

*

But moving to a most serious tone beyond the Sheehan doctrine, there is another unacceptable milestone in which what truly is a "quagmire" has crossed, and that is November 27th of last year marked the day when the Iraq war became longer than the U.S. involvement in World War II (beginning with Germany's declaration of war on the United States on December 11, 1941, four days after Pearl Harbor, and ending when the United States declared victory in Europe on May 8, 1945, a total of 1,244 days).

I bring up this milestone because often throughout these past forty-six months, those most staunchly in favor of the war have brought up various historical comparisons to try and justify what this mission is about, which many proponents have compared to our involvement in World War II. Indeed the world was truly at risk of global tyranny, pitted against a massive and powerful enemy, during World War II, and while I certainly am no fan of war in general, I can also understand why there was no use arguing then when millions of lives were being incessantly not just at risk, but threatened.

Crossing this sort of milestone just proves once and for all that this war is virtually nothing like World War II; that it is a war driven by interest and ideology despite what the soundbytes coming from its architects may lead to suggesting otherwise. To some it may sound like conspiracy talking, but I find it quite obvious when the excuses and rationale for invading have ceaselessly evolved since the beginning, from being about 1) finding weapons of mass destruction, to 2) liberating the Iraqi people, to 3) establishing democracy and elections in Iraq (which this administration originally opposed establishing elections until al-Sistani pressured our government), to 4) nation-building (also initially opposed by this administration) to 5) combatting "fascism" across the Middle East with Iraq being the center of the war on it, to what is apparently now 6) "sacrifice". (I possibly may have over-looked several other excuses)

BBC: January 2, 2007

That last one especially, suggested in a new BBC report of President Bush’s “new Iraq strategy”, was quoting a senior American official, who said this strategy will be about troop increases in Iraq and "sacrifice". It gets even worse still, with NBC Chief Pentagon Correspondent Jim Miklaszewski admitting himself that this move of "surge and accelerate" in Iraq is being done so more politically than militarily.

*

Think Progress: January 3, 2007

WILLIAMS: First, NBC News pentagon correspondent Jim Miklaszewski has learned that President Bush is prepared to announce a strategy of surge and accelerate in Iraq, which would involve some 20,000 additional American troops being sent to Iraq. Jim is with us from the Pentagon with more on this tonight. Jim. Good evening.

MIKLASZEWSKI: Good evening, Brian. Administration officials told us today that President Bush has now all but decided to surge those additional troops into Baghdad to try to control over the violence there and only then could they accelerate the turnover of territory to Iraqi security forces. Fact is they’re not up to the task yet. The plan would also throw more U.S. money at Iraq for reconstruction and a jobs program. Interestingly enough, one administration official admitted to us today that this surge option is more of a political decision than a military one because the American people have run out of patience and President Bush is running out of time to achieve some kind of success in Iraq. While this plan will clearly draw some stiff opposition on Capitol Hill, the president is expected to announce it a week from today.

WILLIAMS: Jim Miklaszewski on duty for us today. Thanks for that.


*

Vanity Fair: November 3, 2006

Even the very neoconservative architects of this war have come out admitting everything is going wrong there and even placing all the blame on Bush's doorstep. Former Chairman of the Defense Policy Board Advisory Committee Richard Perle (who was among those so adamant about invading Iraq that he was even a signatory of the January 26, 1998 PNAC letter sent to President Clinton calling for the military overthrow of Saddam Hussein, and who also thought that this mission would be such a piece of cake he advocated only sending 40,000 troops to Iraq and argued vociferously against the 250,000 General Eric Shinseki proposed) said this in an interview with Vanity Fair's David Rose last November:

*

"I think if I had been delphic, and had seen where we are today, and people had said, 'Should we go into Iraq?,' I think now I probably would have said, 'No, let's consider other strategies for dealing with the thing that concerns us most, which is Saddam supplying weapons of mass destruction to terrorists.' … I don't say that because I no longer believe that Saddam had the capability to produce weapons of mass destruction, or that he was not in contact with terrorists. I believe those two premises were both correct. Could we have managed that threat by means other than a direct military intervention? Well, maybe we could have."

*

The article goes on interviewing other prominent neoconservative figures, including David Frum, Bush's former speechwriter who co-wrote his 2002 State of the Union address that accused Iraq of being part of an "axis of evil", who suggests defeat may now be inescapable, and Pentagon insider Kenneth Adelman who says, "I just presumed that what I considered to be the most competent national-security team since Truman was indeed going to be competent. They turned out to be among the most incompetent teams in the post-war era. Not only did each of them, individually, have enormous flaws, but together they were deadly, dysfunctional."

*

Regardless of how genuinely these figures feel about the state of the war in Iraq now, the only real reason they're speaking out strongly all of a sudden is to attempt to re-write the history of their involvement and planning behind this invasion, in hopes of opportunistically treating President Bush and his administration as scapegoats, as the sole people responsible for this foreign policy mess they started, in hopes perhaps they can re-define themselves and once again influence our foreign policy to what I like to think of as "long war terms", which the departure of Donald Rumsfeld symbolizes the significant collapse of neoconservative influence in this administration.

This call for "surge and accelerate", becoming famously known as the "McCain Doctrine", something which the Baker-Hamilton led Iraq Study Group themselves claimed would be a mistake if it isn't done for the purpose of training Iraqi soldiers and ensuring it's done temporarily rather than "sustained" as McCain believes, is being driven by ego above all else. It's about continuing this senseless war, about refusing to admit their faults and mistakes and stubbornly hoping to avoid speaking them in that such a "sign of weakness" in their minds would forever damage public view of the "long war" kind of foreign policy and halt those profiteering from this war.

Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg Poll: December 13, 2006

It's a cynical ploy which I find absolutely despicable, a cynical ploy which majorities in both the civilian and military populations outright oppose (a mere 12% of Americans in a Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg poll conducted in mid-December support a troop increase, while 52% support a fixed timetable for withdrawal). The American people are speaking that they want LESS troops in Iraq, NOT more. And several Republican senators have already come out joining the Democrats in opposition, including Norm Coleman and Chuck Hagel, who called it "Alice in Wonderland".

And, consequentially from this cynical ploy, it's our young men and women in uniform who suffer the most, who on local levels, both individually and as teams, have done may wonderful things for Iraqi communities everywhere despite our government screwing up in the general sense, opening schools and hospitals in Iraq, caring for the elderly and children, even the heartwarming story of an Army specialist who took a young deaf Iraqi girl to a Miami hospital to have a cochlear implant so she could hear again. I couldn't be more proud of what our troops are doing; in contrast I couldn't be more outraged with the negligence of this administration, who are literally rolling over and behaving like a recalcitrant eleven-year old boy who refuses to do his chores, saying, "Let someone else do them!". That's how they're acting on Iraq, suggesting "Let the next president take care of it!", and in the process literally endangering the lives of our young men and women, leaving them fending for themselves.

It has been made widely clear that most Americans want this administration to begin a strategy in pulling out incrementally. The American public made their voices heard loud and clear last November when they went to the polls and expressed their dissatisfaction with the Iraq war's handling as one of two top issues. And, apparently, the administration still isn't listening to that message.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
Denise
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3 posted 01-07-2007 04:39 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I'm not a fan of war either, Noah. Most of us would like to live in a peaceful world.

Many people believe that we are just as much at risk today from Islamo fascists just as surely as we were from the tyrants during the WWII era. I happen to agree with them.

What do you imagine the media that we have today would have done with statistics like this:
http://www.warchronicle.com/numbers/WWII/deaths.htm

Would the Allied Forces have gone onto victory or would the media induced public outcry have demanded a surrender in light of such high casualties?
Balladeer
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4 posted 01-07-2007 06:54 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Noah, I'll listen to anything you have to say EXCEPT quotes from Cindy Sheehan!!!
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5 posted 01-07-2007 08:47 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

New Orleans, like it or not, is our nation's wake up call to the vulnerability of our homeland. It is a revelry to what happens when multi-generational poverty goes unaddressed.

I had a lot more to say, but like most of the citizens of New Orleans, I'm weary of the "pity" card.

This saddens me, though.

I don't understand the comparison.

Did the United States declare war on New Orleans?

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6 posted 01-07-2007 10:03 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

No, serenity gal, the US hasn't declared war on New Orleans. I could have used New Orleans, Washington DC, traffic accidents or a variety of other comparisons. I used New Orleans only because MSNBC did. It's no pity party for the town. We hear so much about the loss of American lives in Iraq in the war on terror and the attempt to aid the Iraqis when,in actuality, we have more wasted lives dying on our own streets from senseless crimes. Does that make either ok? No, of course not but it is certainly something to think about, no?
Ron
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7 posted 01-08-2007 09:02 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

The comparison is a foolish one, Mike. It assumes that the solution to needless death is always the same, which obviously isn’t true. When children start dying from measles, we don’t pull out, we vaccinate them. When fatalities start piling up at the same street corner, we don’t pull out, we lower the speed limit and put in a traffic light. When people start murdering people, we don't pull out, we try to arrest the criminals, prosecute them fairly, and put them away where they can't do any more harm. The problems may all seem similar, Mike, but the solutions are all very different.

No, we shouldn't pull out of New Orleans, because pulling out isn't the right solution to that particular problem. But, in the face of such tragedy, neither should we keep doing the same things over and over and over again in hopes the problem will just go away. It won't go away. It never does. Not in New Orleans, and not in Iraq.


Balladeer
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8 posted 01-08-2007 03:43 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The comparison is foolish, Ron? NO KIDDING!!! It was intended to be little else. I certainly never intended for it to be taken literally or even seriously. I'll be more careful....promise!
Ron
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9 posted 01-08-2007 04:16 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I certainly never intended ...

But you didn't make the comparison, Mike? According to you, MSNBC did.

The question, of course, is why? If it was meant to be ha-ha funny, an unexpected reversal of expectations, I guess I failed to make that connection. I guess Denise did, too, and apparently everyone else in this thread as well.

Food for thought? Someone is suffering from gross malnutrition, I fear.
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10 posted 01-08-2007 05:13 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Why did they make the comparison? Oh, I think they did that for a valid reason....the same one I gave a few replies ago.....and, yes, it IS food for thought. I mis-spoke when I said the comparison was foolish. What I meant was the part about pulling out of New Orleans was foolish and to be taken as only a feeble attempt at levity...still can't believe anyone would take that line seriously. It's David Letterman material.

You DID make a good case, though, for not pulling out of Iraq.
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11 posted 01-08-2007 05:22 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

May be that MSNBC gets their humorous material from John Kerry
Ron
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12 posted 01-08-2007 07:08 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Sorry, Mike, it's hard for me to see the levity when the joke is about real people who are needlessly dying. Shame on David Letterman.

quote:
You DID make a good case, though, for not pulling out of Iraq.

No, I made a case for doing something different in Iraq, as in New Orleans, instead of continuing to do what hasn't worked. That is the ONLY similarity between the two I can recognize.

Personally, arguing whether we should withdraw from Iraq is a bit like arguing for or against abortion. It's difficult because there can't be any good answer when you're trying to correct a problem that should never have been allowed to exist.


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13 posted 01-08-2007 07:36 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

I guess sometimes the MSM does put things into proper perspective. I'd like to see more of that.



Wasn't the perspective supposed to be that something has gone horribly wrong in New Orleans?
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14 posted 01-08-2007 08:11 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I suppose it was L.R. Due to my misreading it I gave them credit where none was due. My mistake.
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15 posted 01-08-2007 08:13 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

“New Orleans, like it or not, is our nation's wake up call to the vulnerability of our homeland. It is a revelry to what happens when multi-generational poverty goes unaddressed.”

It has been addressed massively for forty years!

As to Iraq, who thought that changing a mindset that has existed
for over a millennium would be easy?  And who would care if
that mindset funded and armed didn’t seek to radically change our own.

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16 posted 01-08-2007 08:23 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

As to Iraq, who thought that changing a mindset that has existed
for over a millennium would be easy?


Dick Cheney
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17 posted 01-08-2007 09:18 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi



Well, he was wrong . . .
That still won't make the problem
go away.
serenity blaze
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18 posted 01-08-2007 09:29 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

January 8, 1815

"The Battle of New Orleans, also known as the Battle of Chalmette Plantation, took place on January 8, 1815, at the end of the War of 1812, when the United States forces defeated the British. The Treaty of Ghent, which ended the war, had been signed—though not ratified—over two weeks earlier, but the news had not yet reached the Southern front."

Seems there's a history of things being slow to reach the southern front.

But um, it's a little ironic, the date, eh?

We didn't pull out, and I have to smile a little now--we sure are a hard-headed bunch. I love ya Mike.

We're loyal too.

ooops

forgot to quote my source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_New_Orleans

And John? Have a valium. I just got mine refilled. So yer safe. grin

Mistletoe Angel
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19 posted 01-09-2007 01:12 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

quote:

As to Iraq, who thought that changing a mindset that has existed
for over a millennium would be easy?  And who would care if
that mindset funded and armed didn’t seek to radically change our own.



Many did, especially the neoconservative architects that I mentioned in my previous response like Richard Perle and Kenneth Adelman.

I for one knew from the beginning that my anti-war politics aside, it wasn't going to be as easy as this administration was making it out to be simply because historically in most interventions, fighting fire with fire just scatters the flames. Though the global community widely condemns terrorism, it also is sensitive about any foreign army intervening in other countries, where it's widely recognized it should only be done so if this is an enemy proven and well-documented to be a serious threat. But our officials treated this as some sort of cakewalk, and ran out of plan after barely two months there.

Adding on to your point, these neoconservatives are talking about a "long war" in hopes of modernizing the entire Middle East so democratic societies can blossom and flourish everywhere just like that, yet while many already believing they're overreaching and being too idealistic as it is, the even worse flaw is that own intelligence services know virtually NOTHING about the culture and religious diversity in the country, and when you go to war with a country in which you know very little about their people, their traditions, etc., what do you expect to happen?

CQ: December 8, 2006

An embarrassing number of CIA officials, elected officials in Congress and members of the Bush Administration can't even correctly answer the simple question of what the difference between a Sunni and a Shi'ite is. For instance, five-term Texas Democrat Rep. Silvestre Reyes, who is the new chair of the House Intelligence Committee, when asked whether Al-Qaeda was Sunni or Shi'ite, answered: "They are probably both." and then abruptly added, "You're talking about predominantly? Predominantly -- probably Shi'ite."

Reyes couldn't have been more wrong. In fact, al-Qa'ida's ideals are guided by the purification of Sunni Islam, which Osama bin Laden considers tainted by the Saudi royal family's personal corruption and alliance with the United State, while Shi'ite Muslims in their view are heretics deserving of death for their perversion of the "one true religion."

Then, when asked who Hizballah are, he says: "Hizballah. Uh, Hizballah.......Why do you ask me these questions at five o'clock? Can I answer in Spanish? Do you speak Spanish?" Yet, Hizballah has been a well-documented and also well-known terrorist arm of Iran for more than two decades, from the 1983 bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut that killed 241 of our servicemen, to the political assassinations, to now trying to help train Iraqi Shi'ites to kill Iraqi Sunnis in Iraq, who has become an influential force in regional politics now.

Then you have Republicans Terry Everett; a seven-term Congressman from Alabama and former vice chairman of the House intelligence subcommittee on technical and tactical intelligence and Jo Ann Davis of Virginia, the former head of the House intelligence subcommittee that oversees the CIA's recruitment of Muslims to infiltrate Islamist organizations and analyze the information they provide, who didn't fare any better being asked the same questions.

Here's the exchanges with both of them by CQ Magazine's nation security editor Jeff Stein in the summer of last year:

*

JS: "Do you know the difference between a Sunni and a Shi'ite?"

Everett: "One's in one location, another's in another location. No, to be honest with you, I don't know. I thought it was differences in their religion, different families or something."

JS explains differences to Everett

Everett: "Now that you've explained it to me, what occurs to me is that it makes what we're doing over there extremely difficult, not only in Iraq but that whole area."


*

*

JS: "Do you know the difference between a Sunni and a Shi'ite?"

Davis: "Do I? You know, I should. It's a difference in their fundamental religious beliefs. The Sunni are more radical than the Shi'a. Or vice versa. But I think it's the Sunnis who're more radical than the Shi'a."

JS: "And what is al-Qa'ida?"

Davis: "Al-Qa'ida is the one that's most radical, so I think they're Sunni. I may be wrong, but I think that's right......al-Qa'ida's whole reason for being is based on their beliefs, and you've got to understand, and to know your enemy."


*

*

And yet, though Davis couldn't be more right on that final point, not only our elected officials (who could be argued that they're not responsible for counterterrorism efforts) but many of our own high-ranking counterterrorism officials have no idea what the schism that has defined the battle line in Islam for almost fourteen centuries across the Middle East is all about.

The World Tribune: December 7, 2006

Moreover, five years after 9/11, only 33 of the Bureau's 12,000 agents have even minimal knowledge of Arabic, and until recently new agents received only two hours in Arab-culture training. Meanwhile, only six people at the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad are fluent in Arabic. Knowledge of Islam and the Middle East is seemingly non-existent throughout our national intelligence.

*

*

Perhaps we have responded too strongly to this MSNBC comparison or David Letterman sort of quip, but those kind of jokes about real conflicts where peoples lives are on the line are NO laughing matter to me, and though I generally enjoy those sorts of jokes you hear on late-night television, this was completely insensitive, and believe sometimes you just have to reiterate in a strong tone exactly who is on the line in such a conflict.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
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20 posted 01-09-2007 09:38 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Perhaps we have responded too strongly to this MSNBC comparison or David Letterman sort of quip..   ya think????


those kind of jokes about real conflicts where peoples lives are on the line are NO laughing matter to me

The joke, Noah, was not about people's lives on the line and the reference to the amount of deaths in Iraq vs. New Orleans was factual, not a joke. The JOKE was in reference to pulling out of New Orleans since we are NOT at war in New Orleans and DON'T have thousands of American soldiers there....man, I can't even believe it's necessary to point this out!

If people want to feel offended about something, they will. If people want to find something offensive, they will. If people want to claim that Mr. McGoo was offensive to nearsighted people, or Speedy Gonzales was an affront to Mexicans, they will. If people want to claim that the song lyrics from the Jet song in West Side Story..." 'cause every Puerto Rican's a lousy chicken" should be censored as an affront to Puerto Ricans or calling a black ex-quarterback "Spearchucker"  in the movie M*A*S*H was demeaning to Afro-Americans, they will....and if you or others here want to take this silly attempt at humor as an affront to our troops and feel offended by it, you will.....and it's your right to do so.
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21 posted 01-09-2007 10:17 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Yep.

But I remember a certain audience booing and  yelling "Too Soon" regarding 9-11 jokes too.

I think when my daughter has to phone me to tell me that she will be late, because the streets between our home and her friends home--the next street over--are cardoned off with yellow crime scene tape because of another double murder, I can reserve the right to say "too close."

I doubt seriously if David Letterman would find kidnapping jokes funny either.

"Too sensitive?" Maybe.

"Too tired." You betcha. But my kids are home and I can lock up now.

It's all good. Lawd knows I've made some bad analogies and bad jokes in my time too.

*chuckle*?

So now maybe I can get some shut eye--without the valium tonight.

G'nite good people.
Mistletoe Angel
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22 posted 01-10-2007 01:56 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Take it from John Kerry, he knows all about jokes gone wrong!

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
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23 posted 01-10-2007 02:53 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

quote:
No, serenity gal, the US hasn't declared war on New Orleans.


Actually, I think Philadelphia has declared war on New Orleans.

E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles!!! (Not)

Jim
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24 posted 01-10-2007 09:17 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Since this is ultimately about Iraq,
let’s say we do pull out.  What, if anything,
do we do with those millions of Iraqis who
bought into the whole freedom democracy thing?
It’s estimated some over 700,000 Vietnamese
died trying to get away after the end of last war we lost.
Do we give asylum, citizenship,  ( there were three
actual or children of refugees in my small R&D
department alone), to those lucky few who survive?
What about all those who voted, (there’s bound to be records),
that don’t get out?  Who is willing to accept
that for relying on us with our proclaimed opportunities  of freedom,
men, women, and even their children will be left behind to suffer
if not die?


.
 
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