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Do We Pull Out?

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serenity blaze
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25 posted 01-10-2007 10:49 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

We could always send them to Houston.

I know, I know, I'm bad.

*laughing* (I should write for Letterman, eh?)

And Jim? I'm just proud to have gotten this far. And yep, I'm stashing some valium for Saturday.



Now, Karenity is earning her wings this week, so g'nite again good people.
LeeJ
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26 posted 01-11-2007 08:34 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Didn't read everyone's comment here, so forgive me if you will if I duplicate something already been said.

There are pro's and con's of course...
But I believe first, instead of listening to media, and fat old men who send young men to war...we should ask our military and troops already over there, what they think?  I mean who sees things more first hand then them.

If we pull out, what does that say to those men who have already lost their lives? And the cause, regardless of Bush's intentions, we owe something to those kids over their bravely defending a people.
And again, I'd like to hear their side of the story. (our soldiers and those in charge of our soldiers over there in the front lines)

Also, if we don't pull out, then we've got to send many more troops over there to defend those already there...they do need back up...and as much strong hold as they can get, including man power, equipment, as sophisticated as we can get...I think up until now, we've not been using all our military's best and finest equipment.  

If we pull out, then we should pull out now, before any one else looses their lives and stop making a political thing out of this...and if we pull out, we've got to understand the consequences of what we've already suceeded over there might be lost...

To me, the only way to win, is to help others, and I'd like to hear what Iraq has to say, what the women over there have to say, and how their soldiers feel.  Everyone should be putting their heads together on this, and to me, this hasn't been done.  

If I were being tortured, beat, raped, watch my family shot, my children claimed and taken to become suicide bombs...then, I'd like to think, that another country would come to our rescue?  Would they?

We always get involved in other peoples wars for political reasons, and try to tell cultures they are wrong, and change cultures that have been existing in their belief for thousands of years.  Then, if we have weak men leading those wars, we pull out.  From the beginning of this war, we've had weak leaders who didn't know what they were doing.  But, unfortunately we're in there, and before we pull out, I think the questions I've possed should be weighed by all involved.  I want to know the perspective of all concerned, not just what our country thinks we should do, to politically win votes.

I would also like to add, no matter what we do in Iraq, we need to reinstate the draft...and every man and woman in the U.S. should have to undergo some military training, unless they are going to college.  If they are not, then, each and every 17 -18 year old person should have to undergo military training for 1 or 2 years. And Marriage should not exempt them from the draft, unless they are pregnant woman.  But they're husbands should have to attend regardless....for 1 or 2 years training.  Then if they want to reinlist, it's their choice, but the draft should be manditory for every young man and woman graduating from high school with no direction on what to do or where to go.  It might also help reinstate some very necessary values and respect lost.  

Balladeer
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27 posted 01-11-2007 08:50 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Good thoughts, LeeJ..

And again, I'd like to hear their side of the story. (our soldiers)

.... but you won't and that's an issue. The several I have talked to and exchanged correspondence with over there believe in what they are doing and are very positive. They also despise the press and the way the press is portraying events over there in the most derrogatory way with little focus on all the good that is being done.

By the way, I can assure you that if an evil leader gets power in the US and you are raped, beaten and killed by the secret police he set up along with thousands of other normal citizens, no other country will come to your defense. We are the only ones dumb enough to do that
Goldenrose
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28 posted 01-11-2007 03:18 PM       View Profile for Goldenrose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Goldenrose

Perhaps the starter of this thread should learn to recognise mistakes, just as the president should regognise the mistakes he has made and not make anymore he should just bring the troops home. But stubborness and a failure to understand or care about the message the people sent to him at the mid term elections, will sadly send more soldiers to their deaths, unless the people say no and take a stand, even to the impeachment of the presdient if need be.

Sheesh it is odd that people can have threads like this though, i can remember times when others had their writing privalages withdrawn for less???...Mmmm good job moderators have nine lives though eh?..

peace to the world ...no more wars...

Goldenrose.

Mistletoe Angel
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29 posted 01-11-2007 03:59 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

quote:
... but you won't and that's an issue. The several I have talked to and exchanged correspondence with over there believe in what they are doing and are very positive. They also despise the press and the way the press is portraying events over there in the most derrogatory way with little focus on all the good that is being done.


You touch on a crucially important point here, Michael, which I see mirrored in a recent Military Times poll conducted late last month.

Military Times: December 29, 2006

Of course, mind you that we should treat no poll as a hasty generalization regarding general attitude and sentiments of our young men and women on the ground, as their feelings run deeper than words ever could and I feel there's been an unprecedented amount of diverse views being projected during this war than during any other such time in recent history. Yet, I do believe these results reveal clues about what's on the minds of many there, and also reveals where they're alligned with what we think generally and where we differ.

Here are some conclusions I came to regarding these results:

*

1) Both the notion of "stay the course" which President Bush continues to project, as well as an abrupt withdrawal, are not acceptable options in the minds of our young men and women in uniform. Our military rejects both extremes, and want closure to this war to come from the medium, likely in the form of a phased withdrawal as a military ground poll conducted by Zogby International in February of 2006 suggests.

2) Our military doesn't like to be treated as a mandate or backdrop to any leader or governing force, according to the poll, despite many of our elected officials using them for political gain in one form or another. 48% said Bush holds their interests at heart, 32% of civilian military leadership said likewise, and a mere 23% said the same for Congress. These results hint a feeling of disconnect between our young men and women in uniform and government at all levels, and that they should be more sensitive and listen to them better.

3) Although the poll results mirror public opinion immensely in some key areas, there are a couple areas where the military and the civilian public are at odds. The first area is regarding the question of more troops in Iraq, where almost half of our military personnel polled believe we need more troops, while a mere 12% of civilians in a Los Angeles Time poll thinking likewise (although 3/4 of the military said in the same poll our military is stretched too thin for that to be a sure success). Secondly, the military's perception of how the media thinks of them is notably different than in the civilian population, where though a majority of civilians believe that not enough good news is reported from the field, they believe all in all they're fair in how they depict the troops, while it's obviously not in the minds of our military personnel. Again, increasing sensitivity and the will to report the human side of serving overseas should be heavily encouraged.

4) The Republican Party in terms of military volunteer option has taken a huge hit this year, with the number of troops identifying themselves as Republicans declining by 14% from the previous poll, and a notable percentage revealing they now identify themselves as centrists and moderates rather than conservatives (liberals remain a thin minority in the active military). These results suggest that while politically, military volunteers still tend to lean conservative as a whole, they also have been mirroring the civilian public this year in moving more toward the center.

5) Despite the obvious increasing disenchantment with the handling of this war by both the President, Congress and civilian military officials, a strong majority of troops remain reluctant to be vocal about their opinions and rather keep them guarded and secret within themselves, suggesting that despite their differences, they value loyalty and honoring the mission above all else, which is something that should be commended, even while I believe dissent is necessary to encourage healthy debate about the course.


*

So as this poll hints out, you are undoubtedly correct that our young men and women do not like the way both how our media are depicting them, as well as how all political parties go treating them like a mandate and pretend that they "speak for them".

And I absolutely agree that our young men and women in uniform are not getting all the respect they deserve in our press, as though I am fervently against this war and the whole neoconservative ideology of the "long war", my respect for our troops is absolute and indispensable. I too keep in close contact with some serving in my friend Randy Meador's battalion at Fort Carson, Colorado in Colorado Springs, as well as talk to veterans at the Vancouver, Washington VA on occasion, who many hold deep reservations about the justifications and leadership of this war, but value that everything our young men and women need should be provided and we must not distance ourselves from them when their very lives are at stake.

Unfortunately, where I work at KBOO Community Radio, I believe there are some there (most there are sympathetic, just some) who are very disrespectful toward our young men and women in uniform, and this nation in particular, who go about every day writing US as U$ and spelling America "Amerika" and writing news stories that only speak negatively about our country and say nothing about all the wonderful things this country offers the worlds every day, and that breaks my heart. I of course am NOT happy with the conduct and leadership of this war and cannot trust those representing this administration in general, and will indeed point out what's wrong with the picture in Iraq.

But I also believe we're committing a colossal disservice and lack of sensitivity to our young men and women in uniform when we don't recognize and bring to light all the brave, honorable and compassionate tasks they perform throughout communities in Iraq nationally, which these altruistic actions and fellow-feeling should be immensely appreciated. Every Wednesday when I produce the Evening News at KBOO, I work every facial muscle out just to find positive, uplifting stories about the heroic and compassionate things each individual, each battalion, each commander performs across Iraq, from Army Captain John Agnello helping to get his hometown community of Fairport, New York to promote soccer to Iraqi children nationally to help them find something to believe in, to  Colonel Larry McCallister working hard heading the Army Corps of Engineers to rehabilitate over 350 schools, 60 medical clinics and three hospitals across Iraq, to working really hard to provide fresh water to Basra, to working on the ambitious Najaf Teaching Hospital......the list of great things goes on and on on the humanitarian and local level.

No one here knows exactly how MUCH heat is unfairly and unfortunately put on me by those "some" I was just talking about at KBOO, simply by running stories that display things happening in Iraq in a positive light. I even got accused last September of acting like a Fox News pundit simply because I ran a story about a three-year old deaf Iraqi girl named Amina receiving a chance to hear again by getting a cochlear implant, thanks to an outreach effort by an Army special forces doctor named Colonel Warner Anderson and his wife in helping arrange that opportunity for her.

I was so upset that day, and frankly believe that running constant stories and/or propaganda that depicts nothing but the negative things our country and our troops do would be the far left equivalent of Fox News, like what Indymedia always does. I continue to volunteer at KBOO of course because most volunteers there, despite being overwhelmingly opposed to this war, are also sympathetic of our troops in combat, and most importanty because I am a volunteer who has a voice to share and I am NOT going to give up that fight for moderation there to a minority of ungrateful, cynical minds there.

*

The bottom line here, Michael, is despite some differences on our thoughts towards this war (I do understand recently that you too have grown increasingly worried and pessimistic about the situation there) we agree most strongly that the coverage of what's happening there is absolutely unacceptable.

I believe I was rightfully upset in the lead-up to the 2003 invasion that there was virtually NO discussion and debate regarding the resolution and intelligence, with virtually the whole media instead parading behind the idea, and am 100% unapologetic in that I have opposed this war from the start. However, despite my fierce opposition to this war, I believe it's NO excuse EVER to hide the heartwarming stories of good that our young men and women in uniform perform each and every day there, and am also most frustrated that politics just can't be set aside to recognize the human side of war on the ground.

On both those final notes, I have to say I found Bush's speech last night terrifying, which struck me as though he was issuing direct military threats against Syria and Iran, contrasting from the recommendations addressed by the Baker-Hamilton-led Iraq Study Group which called for a more diplomatic approach to dealing with both nations, in that despite Rumsfeld's recent departure and the decreasing numbers of self-professed neoconservatives in the Pentagon, that neoconservative ideology is still heavily influencing this foreign policy, and I am simply urging here that should the consideration for military force against these or other countries grow, we don't make the same mistake we did in 2003 and that Americans collectively should be encouraged to form a national discussion and dialogue regarding such policies before they become rushed or pre-empted.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
rhia_5779
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30 posted 01-11-2007 05:10 PM       View Profile for rhia_5779   Email rhia_5779   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rhia_5779

What if the money the man makes or woman makes is the only that supports their family or they are the sole caretaker of their family ? Exempt to the draft then or no?
Mistletoe Angel
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31 posted 01-11-2007 11:09 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

quote:
I would also like to add, no matter what we do in Iraq, we need to reinstate the draft...and every man and woman in the U.S. should have to undergo some military training, unless they are going to college.  If they are not, then, each and every 17 -18 year old person should have to undergo military training for 1 or 2 years. And Marriage should not exempt them from the draft, unless they are pregnant woman.  But they're husbands should have to attend regardless....for 1 or 2 years training.  Then if they want to reinlist, it's their choice, but the draft should be manditory for every young man and woman graduating from high school with no direction on what to do or where to go.  It might also help reinstate some very necessary values and respect lost.  


Although I commend you for being open and honest about all your thoughts like you have here, Lee, I have to strongly disagree with you on this one (and not just because I don't want to go over there and fight these neoconservative wars)

Firstly, I believe mandatory service violates both our notion of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness", as well as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and for all those wanting to serve the country they love through a role different than that of the military, from being a firefighter, teacher, police officer, ballet dancer, etc. does them a great disservice through being forced into such a process, and, frankly, is a blow to our democratic ideals more than anything.

Secondly, there's a good reason why the Pentagon and most of our generals don't want a draft either; no army can work without discipline. They don't want an army loaded with a bunch of unwilling, conscientious objectors who will make things tumultuous for the whole rest of the force, as such a hypothetical problem would lower the morale of the army at large, and create all kinds of adverse problems including murders, fragging, alcoholism and sexual abuse, especially when it's all younger, less-educated prople who will feel resentful that they're cannon fodder for leaders dumber than they are. It also leads into the argument that it severely weakens the quality of our military, which truly is the best in the world, but only remains the best when you have motivated, trained young men and women, rather than a bunch of rusty loose cannons.

Thirdly, frankly, I believe such a thing would only further endanger our national security, because generally when conscription happens, it is perceived by many as "total war", where suddenly the line is blurred in the eyes of the enemy between the civilian population and the military population, and thus enemy nations feel that it's not merely the government of that nation attacking them, but that everyone believes in attacking them, thus won't hesitate to attack nursing homes, hospitals, elementary schools, you name it on our own soil, and foment new terrorism worldwide putting us at greater risk than ever.

And finally, where are you going to find all the money to pay for all these new troops? Our number of troops in Iraq has peaked thus far at 167,000, and even then we're spending $9 billion per month on this war. The service, the training, the equipment, the paying of each individual.....where do you get all this money to pay for it all, especially when our nation continues to cope with a fiscal deficit, a trade deficit, a national debt, etc?

With all due respect, I believe conscription would only further polarize an already widely polarized nation currently, and could overall be a recipe for disaster.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
LeeJ
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32 posted 01-12-2007 09:42 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Hiya Noah

thanks for your feedback...

I disagree only because there used to be a manditory draft and it worked, not to mention, instilled in the youth of our nation, confidence in themselves, respect and stability in opening doors to more future options.  

And I believe the reason it was stopped, correct me if I'm wrong, but there was concern for the monies that was being spent, and politicians decided it was more important to save money then house our boys giving them guidence, options, while strengthening our nations military...

our current military numbers of men and women being sent over seas are basically from lower and working class family incomes and more oft then not, from rural areas where the recruiters get hold of them,  at which point in time, those kids believe they have so few options left in life.  

A draft would increase not only our soldiers, but the knowledge of being a solider; also enforcing an interest by all American's whether or not to go to war....

I am wondering how quickly we'd jump into war, if each and every American child's life were at stake?  Perhaps then we'd finally get a clue and the peace bells would chime?

I'm not talking about if we're at war, or not, or it should happen immediately because of the exisitng war, what I mean is, in peaceful times as well...so that our young men and women, would be trained for combat...perhaps learn basic life skills, give them initiative, more value for life, respect for others, compassion...not to mention, benefit our country's strength in military....

Also, it could open doors to other possiblities for the youth of our country, which wouldn't be limited to military service, but hospitals, parks, public works, at all levels, i.e. peace corps, etc...providing an opportunity for all.  

I believe it would also help to stifle the big brother ripple, where the military would set precidence for seemingly endless bonuses and branch out into a country wide educational system, and education is freedom, power, getting people back on the right track.  Off their butts and once again, becoming self sufficent.  

One of my son's friends, is a single mom and has been in the Air Force for seventeen years now, she is an exceptional mom, has raised her son in his best interest...and I'm so proud of her.  She is such a confident and positive young lady.  I believe the military gave her so much.

It would also help to eliviate laziness...and give those participating a broader stretch of dedication to not only country, but family as well.  Loyalty to all those around them, which would certainly set up a strong foundation.  

Not to mention, with more people highly trained, there would be many more people to help out during natural disasters...more effectively and effciently.  

We would also have many more men to confine our boarders, which I think then would lead to a much richer respect for our country, and the laws of this country.  

Which once again, maybe, this country would realize the necessary impact of being a team working together, abolishing the individual concept of me, myself and I and get rich quick schemes...ripping us apart, pitting extreme lefts against extreme rights until it's exactly where they want us to be...

I mean when a nation is weak, morally, and self absorbed it surely is not a good environment, nor healthy.    Instead, we might then, become a strong nation, manufacturing our own items here again...I dunno, just thoughts is all...I mean, the ripple effect of responsible people working together might accomplish hords?  

a recipe for disaster Noah, to me, would be the loss of military strength...a loss of knowledge, a loss of democracy....

but give people jobs, and discretionary incomes and the world would be better for it...we might even once again, be self sustaining, much stronger technilogically speaking, not to mention, research, and realize our inibitions and fears were due to the idleness and willingness to allow others to take care of us, think for us...tell us who we should be, what material things we need to have, or we must be this way or that to be successful?  

And yes, absolutely, if the woman is pregnant, the husband still has to do his tour...woman are able to work while pregnant and provide for themselves and their children...where I work, (2,000 people in just one building) woman work right up until they are ready to deliver...it's nothing horrible or new...and if I can raise my son alone, for nearly his entire childhood, woman who are pregnant, can also learn how to make sacrifices and work for their needs.  

There is a certain amount of self satisfaction and respect when you become self supporting.  Not depending on others to take care of us or pay our bills.  Which would also help our nation...

I believe it would boost self respect, reason being, there is nothing to gain but self respect, when one works to sacrifice for his/her country, which only ripples out to effect others in a positive way.  

Perhaps helping to unpolarize our nation...team work, is the only way to win...it would break the chains of a concept of individuality and bring this country together as a team once again...

the effects of a military draft, would be so much more positive, and give back so much more, all the way around.  

Just watch the confidence in the soldiers when they express themselves on the news...I saw such a difference in my son, when he came home from the Air Force...what stability, confidence, knowing where he wanted to go and what he had to do to get there.  He worked three jobs and put himself through law enforcement classes gaining the additional credits he needed.    

Just my thoughts Noah...

Michael, thanks for such a great thread....

[This message has been edited by LeeJ (01-12-2007 11:12 AM).]

Ron
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33 posted 01-12-2007 11:47 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Boy, it sure is easy to tell that neither one of you has ever been in the military.
Balladeer
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34 posted 01-12-2007 03:34 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I disagree only because there used to be a manditory draft and it worked, not to mention, instilled in the youth of our nation, confidence in themselves, respect and stability in opening doors to more future options.  

I've been in the military,Ron, and during the time the draft was in force. I agree with that statement wholeheartedly.

Goldenrose, I'm sure you have some point somewhere in that cynicism but it's too well hidden for me. Perhaps you're taking the title as a sexual innuendo? That would be, at least, clever.
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35 posted 01-12-2007 04:59 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

So, Mike, what you're saying then is that if someone wasn't drafted they subsequently didn't have any confidence in themselves, respect, or stability in opening doors to more future options? That's not a very compelling argument, I fear.

p.s. Please don't be too unkind with your conclusions they way Noah was in his post. I wasn't drafted, after all, though I served with many who were. Romanticizing the draft isn't any more realistic than demonizing it is. I don't think it leads to "murders, fragging, alcoholism and sexual abuse," but I'm also quite sure you can't "bring this country together as a team once again" by forcing people into subservience.
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36 posted 01-12-2007 05:25 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

I don't support drafts. I think it's criminal. Isn't the deal that if you're in college you can't get drafted? If that's true, then that bothers me quite a bit. It sounds like the draft only targets people out of school or who cannot afford school; I don't think it's right. This probably won't mean much but I just thought I should say it.    Ed

And I said to the devil, "You better leave my spleen alone."

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37 posted 01-12-2007 05:47 PM       View Profile for rhia_5779   Email rhia_5779   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rhia_5779

So the women should fight if they are pregnant?

Also how do they get compassion from being trained to kill?

The draft does it force everyone to go or just some or not some in certain jobs or w hat?
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38 posted 01-12-2007 05:53 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

"So the women should fight if they are pregnant?"

What are you talking about? lol

And I said to the devil, "You better leave my spleen alone."

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39 posted 01-12-2007 07:06 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

So, Mike, what you're saying then is that if someone wasn't drafted they subsequently didn't have any confidence in themselves, respect, or stability in opening doors to more future options?

Ah, Ron, where you come up with statements like this I have no idea. You are not any better at putting words into my mouth than I am! LeeJ said, and I agreed that the service helped to instilled confidence, respect and ability  and you somehow make that to mean I am implying that anyone not drafted did not have these qualities???? That is so far out there the Enterprise hasn't reached it yet.

No, I was not drafted, either. Truthfully, I joined for the  travel opportunities. I thought that, through the service, I would be able to see places I may never have the chance to see. I spent 5 years overseas and that became a reality, even saw a few places I would have preferred never to see. I also joined to be the part of a larger whole, having come from a family that was a family in name only. If you think I had no confidence or self-respect at the time, that's your choice. I was, however, surrounded by many who WERE drafted and I saw how the service changed many lives for the better. Please don't try to tell me you didn't because I won't believe you. It DID instill pride and confidence in those who had never had them. It DID give a sense a belonging to those who had been loners.

I'm not saying the draft should be re-instituted. It did a lot of good but we lived in a different mind-set then. Today we live in the "not me" mentality. We want the benefits but expect others to take the risks and make the sacrifices to provide them. We applaud them but we don't want to be them and our country is much weaker because of it.
Local Rebel
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40 posted 01-12-2007 07:21 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Mike.. wasn't there a huge downside to the draft too?  

Ed -- if you exempt college students from the draft or promise potential students that you'll pay for their college if they join -- you're still targeting people who can't afford to go to college.
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41 posted 01-12-2007 08:03 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

"Today we live in the "not me" mentality. We want the benefits but expect others to take the risks and make the sacrifices to provide them. We applaud them but we don't want to be them and our country is much weaker because of it."

Mike, I believe its called Instant Gratification.

And no Ron, wasn't implying in the least that those who are not service enlisted lack confidence and respect, but the military does help to boost it.  

I'm sorry you disagree, as I've spoken with many who have enlisted and are in for life...everyone I've spoken with about the military were grateful for the experience and say, it was the best time in their lives...they made close friends they'd never known like them...and will always share a connection.  I'm not talking about war...just regular military enlistment.  I believe if we are a community, we need to work together and do things sometimes that are not always to our liking...sacrifice is ok, as long as someone else is doing so I suppose...there are men and woman in the military who firmly believe in what they're doing...believe their purpose is to protect human life, even if that means, loosing theirs.  When my son was deployed to Saudi, it was the most difficult, but he believed in what he was doing...he wanted to make a differance, just as he wants to believe he is doing so today by being a police officer.  He loves his work, and sees a lot of really bad stuff, but that one time, when he helps someone, and they thank him from their heart, it makes it all worthwhile.  

Nancy to, she loves the air force and says she can't see herself doing anything else.

My uncle as well...loved the military and retired from it after working for the secret service.  

My neighbor Charlie, who is now retired from the air force and flys commercial airlines internationally, said he would do it all over again. He was given a full scholarship by the Air Force.  

Another friend I know, who was in the Coast Guard, loved it...and has many fine stories to tell....intersting stories.

Another friend, Rich, enjoyed the marines
and Bill, the navy...and they all say, it was a great experience, helped them to grow, and become who they are now...

there is nothing in life, that doesn't come with a trade off, and not all times in the military are indeed good ones...yes, there are definately some very hard and bad times...but, it is also a mind frame I believe and the good can out weigh the bad.  

Again...I don't believe a manditory draft would be wrong...not for this war...I'm saying a manditory draft when our country pulls out of Iraq...and they will...no doubt in my mind...

What I'm saying is, that every young man or woman should have to serve and be trained for 12 to 18 months...or even 2 years...be taught a trade, be it computers, special forces...security, whatever...it might give those kids direction, purpose and possibilities they'd otherwise never believe they had.  

Is it all glamour, no, like anything else...it is a part of life...and I'm proud of anyone who joins the military, for their commitment to us...and to their country.  

My cousin is a marine...he loved it...and is still in...

My brother served in Vietnam...he hated the war, but loved the country and his comrades, and the poeple there, and trying to help a people reach freedom for him was a reward.  He rarely speaks of the ugly stuff, just the good times...  

rhia_5779  no rhia, please read it again, I believe you misunderstood the point.  Surely I don't think pregnant woman should be drafted.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


42 posted 01-12-2007 09:39 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“We are looking for recruits, but so far in vain.
If men are not patriotic enough to volunteer
to save the country, I hope a draft will be ordered.”

Elisha Hunt Rhodes
August 3, 1862

Of course then the issues were only union and slavery.

I today listened to a man accuse Franklin Roosevelt of
getting us into war by deliberately ignoring indications of
an imminent attack that led to Pearl Harbor, (in historical fact
while there was suspicion of an attack most in counsel thought
it would be much further West and not against Americans).
I personally doubt even irrefutable evidence of the camps
in Poland and what was happening there or plans
of Axis world domination would have motivated
the vast majority of Americans who were opposed to getting
involved to change their minds, (I once read a comment by
a Jewish survivor who took insult at the notion the “Final Solution”
in process wasn’t  already public knowledge in the United States),
before December 7, 1941, (the “Rape of Nanking”
was no secret).

Let’s face it, we have been and remain a nation in the majority
that doesn’t care what happens so long as it happens to our neighbor
or a generation other than our own.  Our morality is based on our present
comfort and Heaven help the man who would have it otherwise.


.
Ron
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43 posted 01-12-2007 11:56 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
... and you somehow make that to mean I am implying that anyone not drafted did not have these qualities?

If you told me that having sex results in babies, Mike, I would interpret that to mean that not having sex would result in no babies. That's generally the way cause and effect is interpreted.

quote:
I was, however, surrounded by many who WERE drafted and I saw how the service changed many lives for the better. Please don't try to tell me you didn't because I won't believe you.

I saw people changed for the better, Mike, but also saw a lot of people changed for the worse. I didn't ascribe that to the service just because there was a temporal connection, though, perhaps in part because I had a lot of civilian friends stateside who went through their own changes at about the same time.

I think it was called growing up.

quote:
Today we live in the "not me" mentality. We want the benefits but expect others to take the risks and make the sacrifices to provide them. We applaud them but we don't want to be them and our country is much weaker because of it.

Perhaps you're right, Mike. Last I heard, though, there were about 140,000 Americans in Iraq (soon to be 160,500) who apparently forgot to say, "Not me."

quote:
I've spoken with many who have enlisted and are in for life...everyone I've spoken with about the military were grateful for the experience and say, it was the best time in their lives ...

I'm glad to hear it, Lee. So, why do you want to take that away from them? Why do you want to make it an obligation instead of a willing commitment?

Doing something because you believe it's the right thing to do is vastly different from doing something because someone forced you to do it. Writing a check to your local food bank increases your sense of self-worth in a way that a government imposed tax -- even if it's for the same darn food bank -- never will. I honestly believe that most people want to do good. I don't think anyone wants to be forced to do good. Force robs us of the opportunity to not be forced.

There's a flip side to that, too, one that I think you raised when you mentioned your son wanting to be a police officer, which isn't, after all, greatly different from the role of the soldier. So, maybe we should also draft our cops? Certainly, most communities these days could use a few more hands on the streets, don't you think? And it would sure be nice to get them for subsistence wages, too. I'm sure putting eighteen- and nineteen-year-old kids on the streets with a gun would go a long ways towards instilling in them "confidence in themselves, respect, and stability in opening doors for future options."

Ah, but there's that flip side I mentioned, isn't there? If, heaven forbid, you ever have to make that dreaded 911 call, do you really want someone responding who never wanted to be there?

Sorry, but I just don't believe you can effectively force people to be police officers, fire fighters, paramedics, or doctors. And I suspect most would agree with me. So, why in the world do we think so much less of our soldiers?


Edward Grim
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since 12-18-2005
Posts 1112
Greenville, South Carolina


44 posted 01-13-2007 01:19 AM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

"Ed -- if you exempt college students from the draft or promise potential students that you'll pay for their college if they join -- you're still targeting people who can't afford to go to college."

Ok Reb, I see what you're saying. But let's say there is a draft and I'm not in school at the time, would it be possible to get out of the draft. Or does that mean jail time? And if you are imprisoned for refusing to be drafted, then how can that possibly be right? Wouldn't that be a "do as we say or else" type of situation?

And I said to the devil, "You better leave my spleen alone."

rhia_5779
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since 06-09-2006
Posts 1304
California


45 posted 01-13-2007 05:22 AM       View Profile for rhia_5779   Email rhia_5779   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rhia_5779

Reread that you are right. Sorry bout my misinterpatation.

If a draft was brought back could they make people go who work as teachers or paramedics or in public services or govt?

Would you suggest that?
LeeJ
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since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


46 posted 01-13-2007 06:55 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

"Let’s face it, we have been and remain a nation in the majority that doesn’t care what happens so long as it happens to our neighbor or a generation other than our own.  Our morality is based on our present comfort and Heaven help the man who would have it otherwise."

John You said a mouthful, couldn't agree with you more...and exactly why I believe in the draft more so...

Rhea...yes, I do, I believe this country needs training, and respect for education, respect for oneself...for instance, if you respect yourself, your going to respect me and everyone around you.  It’s a ripple effect.  

I can understand there will be those who surely do not want to go...but after their training, counseling about further careers, I see a lot more of our youth, heading in a more positive direction.  

No one wants to attend high school either...but it is a mandatory

The draft would give our children a new network toward life, allow them to see more clearly their options and believe in them, teach them not to depend on mom or dad to pick up their cloths... make their bed, clean their room, cook their meals, or do their laundry, and it surely would get them away from video games and TV for a while, showing them, there is much more that life has to offer.  

A mandatory draft for a year or two would be so much more beneficial to not only those that go, but also to our country...perhaps a very positive cleansing...and perhaps much more respect for our elderly.

A weak nation, in education, self worth, military, morals, leaves a door wide open for ruin.  We are a nation of self imposed conditioning...sometimes people have to make unpopular decisions to strengthen majority and minority, in the long run.  I believe the multitude would flourish by this...The military teaches to do what is best for the entire body of community, not just self.  

My son, had no idea where he was going when he came out of high school, he could have gone to college right away...but decided to join the Air Force...he learned how to fly, utilize his time wisely, take classes, and when he came home, I saw the boy that left, turn into a man...one that held himself in much better posture & place, all the way around.  

He is a dedicated and loyal husband, a good father who isn't afraid to be unpopular with his child because he disciplined her, and certainly not wishy washy in making decision...the confidence he cultured helped him make decision with buoyancy, realizing, that he might be wrong, but was not afraid to take that step into the unknown and try.

I'm very proud of him...his character, his fidelity not only to family, but as a citizen, neighbor and police officer.  He is by far, not a violent person...never was...he is a peace maker and a care giver, who abandoned a small town mentality.

He doesn't fear moving, or taking a chance to better life for his wife and child.  He doesn't fear change...and no matter who talks to him, he looks at the entire picture rather then taking someone's perspective matter of factly...

Is he perfect? Heck no, but he is, a better, stronger, responsible man, due to the military.  He learned how to travel alone, and enjoy it...to take care of himself...he is not afraid to meet others and socialize, or to allow others their opinion, without demoralizing them with words, because he disagrees and wants to win an argument.  I commend the military...and am behind them, no matter what I believe...if we should pull out of Iraq or not, I commend the men who are over there fighting for what they believe in, regardless of our government’s political intentions & agendas.  

I'm going to relay what my son told me upon his discussion to become a police officer.  I asked "Aren't you afraid of being killed", he said, “if I am mom, I want to go down knowing and believing I might have made a difference even if for one person’s life”.  
  
It wouldn't kill our kids to have to serve a tour in the military, but more so, help give them direction and careers they might not realize otherwise there.  

Yes, there are pro's and cons to everything...but in this situation, I strongly believe it would be a positive result, for our children and for our nation.  

It might also ripple effect in a positive way to bring us together and closer with patience and understanding for opinion.  I've heard so many extreme left and rights say, oh, they are so stupid for their beliefs...well, then, what is wrong with a little education...to teach people to really research an issue before making a decision, and to teach them that it is very important to look at the long term effects instead of instant gratification, that we can’t always be winners, and to step back and allow others to have their day in the sun, as well.  

Discipline is a learning process we've also lost in this country...which the military teaches.  Parents today are afraid or just plain to lazy to discipline their children...why, because someone came along and said, if you spank your children it will scar them for live...sheesh...we were conditioned to believe spanking children is abuse...it is not...

Again, teaching our young folks discipline will ripple down to & through their children and create a new generations of respectful young adults, who realize the necessity of obeying the law.

Some people think the military promotes violence...so do video games & movies, which seams to be a child’s influence today.   The military teaches safety and how to protect oneself...defense, and how to be a leader, how to look at things objectively, how to utilize time wisely, how to invest, spiritually, morally, and physically in future...to be supportive regardless of opinion, to promote learning out side the culture of our parents not fearing to learn something new....to branch out and believe in opportunities, freedom, and there isn't anything one can’t do if they work for it.   Learning other cultures is understanding them….not fearing them…the military also provides that opportunity.  

We're becoming a nation of tradition, untouched by progress…military personal, moves with purpose, it gives the chance to grow up, how to tackle and deal with problems, it teaches to not fear change, to drive yourself to excel...instead of sitting back and allowing everyone else to be responsible...it also shows that one doesn't have to be married to be successful...

The military teaches one can live alone and enjoy the company he/she keeps...ex military often make better teachers, parents...citizens... movies...to learn to lead and follow depending on the situation at hand.

A Military Mandatory Draft would be healthy...

it would promote learning...teaching even though laws may not always seem fair, they are there for a reason...and we should respect them.  

There is nothing wrong with education beyond parental culture, to explore other avenues, religions, friends, to learn stamina, strength of mind and character...to know what we want to do with out lives without the worry of it being an unpopular decision because it's something our parents never did.  

We need to be reminded to be working citizens...and remember it's not just about us and our protective little bubbles of a world we have built around ourselves.  It's about you and me...working together...which is also what the military teaches....the importance of team work...looking out for those around you...and how one mistake or concern for self, can upset the entire apple cart.  

And yes, not all people will be happy with the draft…but in the end, they will have learned something…which later on in life could be beneficial.  Not all experiences are fun or filled with self gratification…life is hard, it is a constant learning experience, or should be.  When and if we become people stagnated in our beliefs, never open to other options and fear change, trial and yes, even error…then we stagnate our own learning capabilities.  

These are just a few of my thoughts of why I do believe a mandatory draft would be beneficial to our children and to our nation…reinstating a lot more positive results then negative.  

[This message has been edited by LeeJ (01-13-2007 09:29 AM).]

Balladeer
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since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


47 posted 01-13-2007 07:09 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

quote...and you somehow make that to mean I am implying that anyone not drafted did not have these qualities?
If you told me that having sex results in babies, Mike, I would interpret that to mean that not having sex would result in no babies. That's generally the way cause and effect is interpreted.


An absolutely amazing comparison, Ron.  If I say the draft instills character you respond with those not being drafted must not have character. You must be able to see how flawed that argument is but let me just say that, in the instances of invitro fertilization not having sex would not necessarily mean not having babies. What you are basically saying, according to your "compelling argument" theory is:

1. Draft can instill character
2. Many people are drafted
therefore
3. All drafted will have character instilled
4. Those not drafted will have no character.

There are many ways to acquire character, Ron....not that many ways to produce babies. The comparison is  flawed, to say the least. Your cause and effect theory is equally off the mark. If you want to derive a negative effect from a statement, you must deal with absolutes. "Having sex produces babies" is not an absolute, since sex can be performed without producing babies (in everyone's case but mine!). It would have  to be said that "Having sex MAY produce babies", in which case your "effect" would be that it may not. If I say "Having a beautiful face can get you a good husband, you cannot then deduce that not having a beautiful face means you cannot get a good husband. So, if I say that the draft can instill character, you can only respond that it may not, which would be accurate.

Perhaps you're right, Mike. Last I heard, though, there were about 140,000 Americans in Iraq (soon to be 160,500) who apparently forgot to say, "Not me."

I was not referring to the soldiers, Ron.

quote:I've spoken with many who have enlisted and are in for life...everyone I've spoken with about the military were grateful for the experience and say, it was the best time in their lives ...

I'm glad to hear it, Lee. So, why do you want to take that away from them? Why do you want to make it an obligation instead of a willing commitment?


No one who makes a career in the military is under an obligation.  Even for draftees there is no obligation to re-enlist.

Sorry, but I just don't believe you can effectively force people to be police officers, fire fighters, paramedics, or doctors

So how did you feel about those same people being forced to attend school as children? Or wear clothes in public?There will always be obligaitons in life, Ron, in society. I don't consider it so out of line to take part in the strength and defense of the country that gives us so much to be one of them.


Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


48 posted 01-13-2007 09:28 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
There are many ways to acquire character, Ron

BINGO! I knew you'd get there eventually, Mike.  

So, then, why would you assume one way over another?

In my opinion, the service does absolutely nothing to instill character. There are some few events, almost none of which are desirable, that might instill character, but beyond that, being in the service is no different from any other "first" job. Carrying a rifle or carrying a shovel, the job only brings out what is already there.

Take Lee's son, for example. She makes him sound like a very admirable man, and I've no doubt that's true. I suspect I would like him. Unfortunately, she also makes it sound like everything that is good about him comes from without instead of from within. She seemingly doesn't feel like she raised him well, but instead had to depend on her government to do it for her. I'm afraid I just don't buy into that. I think she gives both herself and her son too little credit.

quote:
So how did you feel about those same people being forced to attend school as children?

How would you feel about those same children being forced to attend school as adults?

Children are given limited choices for a reason, Mike. When they stop being children we have to stop treating them like children.

quote:
I don't consider it so out of line to take part in the strength and defense of the country that gives us so much to be one of them.

And there, really, is the crux of the matter, Mike. The country and the people are not separate things, but are one and the same thing. In my opinion, if you have to force people to take part in the strength and defense of their country then the country has already gone to hell in a hand basket. It's all but over, and imposing slavery on the population is only going to delay the inevitable.

Personally, I don't think we're there yet. When threatened, I believe most Americans will willingly fight to protect what is theirs. If there's any confusion about that in today's world, I suspect it's because not all of the threats we face seem to necessarily be valid ones.

(At the dire risk of going off-topic [yea, like that could ever happen], I'd like to also add that taking part in the strength and defense of our country needn't mean carrying a rifle into combat. The kid who gets out of high school and takes a job in a local factory may not be carrying a rifle directly, but at today's inflated tax rates he's certainly going to be paying for those rifles. In this era's war theatre, there is no such thing as a civilian.)
LeeJ
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since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


49 posted 01-13-2007 11:57 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Take Lee's son, for example. She makes him sound like a very admirable man, and I've no doubt that's true. I suspect I would like him. Unfortunately, she also makes it sound like everything that is good about him comes from without instead of from within. "She seemingly doesn't feel like she raised him well, but instead had to depend on her government to do it for her." I'm afraid I just don't buy into that. I think she gives both herself and her son too little credit.

Checkmate Lee J. you loose

Was it worth it Ron?  

you have insulted me and my son to the highest level, and I shall have nothing more to say on this issue, nor shall I defend neither of our characters...say what you will, believe what you want...it isn't worth it.
 
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