How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 The Alley
 GIULIANI 2008   [ Page: 1  2  ]
 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

GIULIANI 2008

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


0 posted 01-02-2007 05:41 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Give me a break.
We’re not so desperate.
It’s takes more than being calmly around
while others die to be President.


.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


1 posted 01-02-2007 06:00 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Given the dimensions of what happened on 9/11 John -- don't you think NYC was in huge danger of becoming chaotic if the proper leadership hadn't been in place at the time to keep things under control?

Wouldn't it have been a tragedy of untold dimensions if on top of the WTC trauma there was the extra layer of citizen on citizen mayhem (let's think about L.A. riots for instance) that could have ensued in a panic?

I don't think you're looking at the whole picture there.  Doesn't it take SOMETHING to be the Mayor of one of the worlds largest cities to begin with -- let alone be a successful prosecutor?

We've had good presidents with less pedigree.

Like, a habadasher.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


2 posted 01-02-2007 06:13 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

There were a great many unsung heroes
who made 911  less a catastrophe than it might
have been.  Giuliani riding a bandwagon of death
to be President is to me  more than unseemly.


.
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


3 posted 01-02-2007 06:14 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Do you have a favorite, John?
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


4 posted 01-02-2007 06:19 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Brad,

Colin Powell,
but he won’t take the job.

John


.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


5 posted 01-02-2007 06:20 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

That's a good formula to make sure we fail to put the best of the best forward John.

One can play the fear card tastelessly and shamelessly.

Success is, however, success.  When leadership triumphs over death -- the living celebrate.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


6 posted 01-02-2007 06:25 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


What success?  By simply being there?
Do you really think we pulled out of 911
because of one man?  Take care Sir.


.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


7 posted 01-02-2007 06:32 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Because of one man?  No.

Because of capable leadership?  Yes.

Been to New Orleans lately?
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


8 posted 01-02-2007 06:43 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

Show me the man
or woman
who would not have done their job
beyond pay
because Giuliana was not there?


.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


9 posted 01-02-2007 06:59 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Ask any man or woman who has worked under a bad leader if he or she was able to do his or her best work?
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


10 posted 01-02-2007 07:05 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Here’s news for you Sir
A man or woman needs no leader
to do best for what is right.


.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


11 posted 01-02-2007 07:08 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Well, you know...

that is news to me.

Because large operations require coordination, planning, training, resources, and EXECUTION.

If we were talking about a man who was 2 days on the job playing with someone else's team -- you might have valid points.

But, that just wasn't the case.

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


12 posted 01-02-2007 07:19 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

And you really think
it was Guiliana in charge?
You disrespect the anonymous
whose courage pulled us through.


.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


13 posted 01-02-2007 07:23 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Well, let's talk about those people.

NYPD
FDNY

Thousands and thousands of volunteers from PD's and FD's across the country....

All of them heroes no doubt.

There were Seargents, Lieutenants, Captains, Chiefs, and... at the top... a Mayor.

Yes.  

That's the way it works.

One man is in charge.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


14 posted 01-02-2007 07:28 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“One man is in charge.”

Or rather a figurehead
without which men and women
would have done their jobs regardless. . .


.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


15 posted 01-02-2007 07:32 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Ok.

New Orleans, New Orleans, New Orleans.

Your suggestion is disrespecting all of the brave men and women who tried to do thier best in the face of incapable leadership.

Did they TRY to do their best?

You bet.

Poor leadership failed them.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


16 posted 01-02-2007 07:39 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

“Poor leadership failed them.”

A lack of resources I understand.

Yet a lack of leadership
being the determining factor?

I grant you
we live in different worlds.


.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


17 posted 01-02-2007 07:56 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Poor planning.

Poor coordination.

Poor decisions.

Poor utilization of available resources.

Failure to lead.

Coaches can't win without talented players -- that's true -- but talented players can't be part of a good team without good coaching.


Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 11-03-1999
Posts 4427
Oklahoma, USA


18 posted 01-02-2007 08:19 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

Damn, I can't stand this. LR, it looks like we finally agree on something Your NY and NO comparison illustrates the point to perfection.
Edward Grim
Senior Member
since 12-18-2005
Posts 1112
Greenville, South Carolina


19 posted 01-02-2007 10:39 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

Yeah, I have to agree with Rebel as well. A movie can't work without a good director. A plane cannot fly without a good pilot; sure, people with good intentions can try to fly it but they'll end up bloody abstract art on the ground.

At any rate, I don't think Giuliani will be elected president. I personally wouldn't mind but I've heard things. Mostly about how people don't like him and his views on certain things; like that incident with the artwork. I thought he handled it well but other people didn't think so.

I don't know who should win in 2008. Who knows? Maybe Nader will finally pull the rabbit out of the hat and win one for the kid that never got picked for dodgeball, LOL.  

And I said to the devil, "You better leave my spleen alone."

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


20 posted 01-03-2007 08:40 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


What decisions did Giuliana make
that effected how 911 was responded to?


.
Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 11-03-1999
Posts 4427
Oklahoma, USA


21 posted 01-04-2007 12:05 AM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

Not being an insider, I certainly can't cite specific details. But, as LR indicated, a machine the size of NYC does not operate in a vacuum in the face of such an emergency. It requires leadership and the mayor is at the top of the "food chain."

More appropriately, if you don't believe he contributed significantly to the recovery effort then it behooves you to say why and where he failed. Remember, innocent until proven guilty and all that. Since he was in charge and things went extremely well, he deserves credit until some evidence uncovers that he failed and someone else actually directed the efforts.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


22 posted 01-04-2007 06:55 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Well there's plenty of evidence Pete, of a myriad of bad decisions and operational details that probably cost lives on 9/11.

Like, for starters, Giuliani's insistence on placing Incident Command in the bottom of the World Trade Center.  Complaints of bad walkie talkies, infighting between Police and Fire departments, communication breakdowns, and the like.

Even general criticism in the 9/11 Commission Report about general prep for such an incident.

Did Giuliani make mistakes? You betcha.

Did he use a crisis consultant to tell him what to say to the city to keep everybody calm?  Sure.  Was that a bad thing?  No.

Ultimately -- in the wide scope -- we expect anyone who's doing something to make mistakes.  But the agregate results showed us a situation that didn't go into complete meltdown.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


23 posted 01-04-2007 08:49 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.
“But the agregate results showed us a situation that didn't go into complete meltdown.”

Because a great many unsung heroes did their job well.


“Well there's plenty of evidence Pete, of a myriad of bad decisions and operational details that probably cost lives on 9/11.

Like, for starters, Giuliani's insistence on placing Incident Command in the bottom of the World Trade Center.  Complaints of bad walkie talkies, infighting between Police and Fire departments, communication breakdowns, and the like.

Even general criticism in the 9/11 Commission Report about general prep for such an incident.

Did Giuliani make mistakes? You betcha.

Did he use a crisis consultant to tell him what to say to the city to keep everybody calm?  Sure.”


And this man should be President.  Maybe you’re right.
There were in fact survivors.  Where do we sign up to vote?


.  
Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 11-03-1999
Posts 4427
Oklahoma, USA


24 posted 01-04-2007 10:02 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

I can't say that qualifies him to be president, just that you can't legitimnately take away from what he accomplished, certainly with the help of many well-trained workers.

As for presidential qualifications, how many presidents have been elected in our lifetimes who actually had proper qualifications?

I don't know about any of you but I think I'll wait to se what shakes out in the next couple of years before making my decision.
Huan Yi will be notified of replies
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> The Alley >> GIULIANI 2008   [ Page: 1  2  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors