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Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


0 posted 12-26-2006 03:42 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6213150.stm


“Identifying planets similar to Earth is critical in the hunt for extra-terrestrial life.”


Great  . . .So instead of God they’re looking for Spock.

.
Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


1 posted 12-26-2006 05:09 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

And this is a problem?
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


2 posted 12-26-2006 05:27 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Yes, in that it’s just another fairy tale, useful only in
the advancements in technology fostered
under the cover.  Give one shred of real evidence there’s
anyone out there, ( and be honest no one is interested
in inert elements).   It’s a childish fantasy whose reasoning
is no more valid than there’s a Guy with a white beard
watching over us.  Let’s grow up.
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


3 posted 12-26-2006 05:34 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Well, that's easy to say before anyone actually looks for the evidence.      

But I think evidence of intellegent life beyond earth will be proven here in our own solar sytem, on Mars, far before it shall be found anywhere else.  I believe under the surface of Mars, there are fossils of former civilizations waiting to be seen.  Someday some of those fossils shall be in Museums here on earth too.

Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


4 posted 12-26-2006 05:35 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

And what would not qualify as a childish fantasy in your eyes?

What is worth searching for?


Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


5 posted 12-26-2006 05:39 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

“And what would not qualify as a childish fantasy in your eyes?”

Something that has evidence that can be shown or demonstrated
and confirmed by objective reviewers.

"What is worth searching for?"

A cure for cancer to start is nice.

Or at least perhaps a sure way to die without
warning, without war, violence, painlessly in our sleep.


Ron
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since 05-19-99
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Michigan, US


6 posted 12-26-2006 06:17 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Did you eat anything today, John? Did that preclude you from drinking something as well?

There are really only three possibilities for you, John.

1. You have to believe there is a God.

2. Or, you have to believe there is intelligent life beyond our own.

3. Or, you just haven't done the math to understand why 2 must be true if 1 is not.



Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


7 posted 12-26-2006 06:24 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Ron,

Your first two choices suggest some sort of savior.

Show me the evidence.  Why must we instead
believe in some extraterrestrial Santa?  It used
to be those “out there” would kill us, (War of the Worlds);
now we expect them to teach us Zen.

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


8 posted 12-26-2006 06:45 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
Why must we instead
believe in some extraterrestrial Santa?


I don't have much use for an ET Santa, but I'm surprised that you can't differentiate between that and looking for life in other places. But for you, I guess, geology is just a bunch of rocks.

Dark matter, dark energy? Couldn't be bothered I guess. Just another way of saying that we don't know what we say we know.

On this planet, we find life pretty much everywhere we look. I suspect (hope)that once we do identify life on other planets we'll pretty much find it all over the place.

But I also think that you'll just raise the bar a bit. Instead of nobody caring about inert matter, it will be nobody will care about microbes.

And on, and on and on.

To be honest, I don't have any problems with the search for God either.

Okay, I really don't mind childhood fantasies all that much either.

Adolescent ones are okay too.

But a cure for cancer's a good idea too.

And on, and on and on.

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


9 posted 12-26-2006 06:59 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

Brad,

As I commented before what keeps the money safe
is the idea that there are Vulcans not inert elements, (or microbes), out there.
If the latter  were expressed as the purpose you couldn’t
get enough money for a bottle rocket.   It’s that fantasy that
irritates me.   I tired of one fable or another being nurtured
by government money and presented  as real to those too inexperienced
beforehand to recognize a con.   It’s just another form of state
sponsored religion to me.


.
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


10 posted 12-26-2006 07:25 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
I'm tired of one fable or another being nurtured
by government money and presented  as real to those too inexperienced
beforehand to recognize a con.


Tell me about it.

  
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


11 posted 12-26-2006 07:27 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

What syllogism leads you to the conclusion that life on other planets is a fantasy?

Construct it.

On the other hand:

There is life on this planet.

There are other planets.

If life is possible on this planet then it may also be possible on other planets as well.

Believing there is ONLY life on this planet without establishing evidence is a childish, narcisistic, fantasy.  

Understanding that we only know what we know is the only rational approach to the universe.

You oppose government funding of space exploration.  Ok... defend that on it's own merits instead of making claims you can't possibly support.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


12 posted 12-26-2006 07:29 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

"What syllogism leads you to the conclusion that life on other planets is a fantasy?"

Are you asking me to prove a negative?

OK, I give up.   There are Leprechauns
under your bed.

But as I've said now more than once,
it's not the search for mere life but Spock
the wonder worker that truly funds the effort.

Ron
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since 05-19-99
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Michigan, US


13 posted 12-26-2006 07:55 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Your first two choices suggest some sort of savior.

If so, John, perhaps it's your own bias doing the suggesting. The inevitability of life beyond our own implies nothing about that life. I'm talking about quantity and you're twisting it into a reflection of quality.

quote:
As I commented before what keeps the money safe is the idea that there are Vulcans ...

Science fiction is cool, John, but you need to remember the emphasis should remain on the second word in the phrase, not the first. There are no Vulcans, John. It's a story. And more importantly, the people voting to spend resources in space are pretty much smart enough to know that.

I think the bigger misunderstanding in your argument is also the more important one.

Science need not have a realizable goal in order to be successful. There's life out there, but it wouldn't matter if there wasn't. I personally don't think we can ever contact that life, but it wouldn't matter if we could. Primitive or advanced, friend or foe, Vulcan or Borg, none of it really matters. 'Cause, very simply, we can't know what we'll find until we look. The horizon is a beginning, not an end.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


14 posted 12-26-2006 07:58 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

But as I've said now more than once,
it's not the search for mere life but Spock
the wonder worker that truly funds the effort.



Equally unsubstantiated.  Downright illogical.

Anyone who would want to find Spock knows there is no Spock in reach -- so it's doubtful that anyone cheerleading space exploration has any such expectations.

I can, however, look under my bed and tell you I see no Leprechauns.

By looking enough times I can come to the logical conclusion that the only thing I might find under there is a half-eaten peanut-butter sandwich one of my kids left there and a lot of dust.

We can't make this argument and expect to win:

We shoudln't spend money on space exploration because nothing is out there worth finding.

More logical;

We have more pressing budget constraints presently than can justify an investment in a venture that has no forseeable return even if successful.

But, you'll then have to prove that those budget constraints are real.
Edward Grim
Senior Member
since 12-18-2005
Posts 1112
Greenville, South Carolina


15 posted 12-27-2006 01:56 AM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

I think scientists should try to look for intelligent life on earth first. That would be a tough exploration I think; years I'm sure it would take. Not in my lifetime probably. The search for intelligent life on earth won't start on the internet or in a building but rather on some forsaken hill that no one ever travels to - a place where solitude is respected and the facts of life aren't laid upon the butcher's block to be severed and eaten. No no, real intelligent life will begin when a child is conceived and end when it hits the surface.





___________________
A man was once very frightened of people he didn't see. He was scared that they'd get their dirty little hands on his organs and bone marrow. These people haunted him greatly and there was a paranoia that emitted from the top of his head like a beacon of fear jutting up into the sky. But alas, he came to understand that the people were gods and he was not; for the gods were not seen and he was exposed as well as his marrow. The man decided that it was a life other than his own that these human-gods were after; a life not planted on Earth. These were his notions.
    This man died believing that gods from another planet were after him but a form of him that was not he. At any rate, he kept his organs but his marrow was extracted and donated to someone who needed it.

_________________
The moral, dare I say that word, of the story is: What difference does it make? I'd imagine that I'm the youngest one on this thread and I realize that these subjects seem rather unimportant for adults to be talking about. So what if there is life somewhere else? You'll still lose your marrow when you die.  All these threads, the hundreds of discussions about God and what not... They're all the same:

Why God?
God and War
God's Sadness
Could God Give a Computer a Soul?
the Father, the Son and . . .
Religion vs Reason
The Last Word--the ultimate God discussion
Christians, What Do You Think?
Women and Religion - Open Thread
Jesus Question
Labeling Atheism
When did God begin?
Jesus......REJECTED! (Nice one JCP)


Where does it all go? This seems to be a hobby at PiP's. Answers to questions like these won't be found on the interenet just like intelligent life.

And I said to the devil, "You better leave my spleen alone."

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


16 posted 12-27-2006 06:57 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

The moral, dare I say that word, of the story is: What difference does it make? I'd imagine that I'm the youngest one on this thread and I realize that these subjects seem rather unimportant for adults to be talking about. So what if there is life somewhere else? You'll still lose your marrow when you die.  All these threads, the hundreds of discussions about God and what not... They're all the same:



Immaturity is not the exclusive possession of youth.

You've set the bar rather high for yourself now though -- you will have to justify why grunts and whistles are more intelligent than our evolved language and convenient forum.

You would prefer that instead of discourse we all watch Americas Funniest Home Videos?  

In youth there are answers.  In maturity only questions.

And, people ask.
Edward Grim
Senior Member
since 12-18-2005
Posts 1112
Greenville, South Carolina


17 posted 12-27-2006 06:07 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

"Immaturity is not the exclusive possession of youth.
You've set the bar rather high for yourself now though"

Lol, good one...


"...you will have to justify why grunts and whistles are more intelligent than our evolved language and convenient forum."

What are you getting at here? What's this about grunts and whistles? Remember, I'm a youth so you have to speak plainly lol. I was merely saying that this topic seems rather silly. I didn't know I had no right to do so, my bad.

"You would prefer that instead of discourse we all watch Americas Funniest Home Videos?"  

Well that's not a very nice thing to say. If I didn't have an iron shirt for humor, I might be offended, lol. Look here man, I'm 18 years old, so let's be civil. You're not dealing with some punk here brother. I was just saying that I'm probably the youngest here, not that I'm young. So unless you're 12 or something my statement stands a fact. But I greatly doubt that you are 12 because your language is so finely tuned and running like a well oiled machine. Kudos on that.

"In youth there are answers.  In maturity only questions."

LOL, this is my favorite part of your reply. So you're saying that children have all the answers and adults can only ask questions? That's seems pretty backwards to me. Well, you know what, I guess you're right. I never hear kids asking: What's that, what's that, what does that do, what's that word mean? I never hear that from chitlens. But I have had thirty somethings ask me what a plane is and is Santa real and is E.T. a documentary. So maybe you're right. Unless, I read that wrong and you meant that kids only get answers and adults only get hit with questions? If that's so then I'd rethink the whole thing.


Next time I'll keep my mout shut, but maybe not, cause this is fun for me. And you know us children, we only want fun and pockets full of candy. Cheers bro


And I said to the devil, "You better leave my spleen alone."

[This message has been edited by Edward Grim (12-27-2006 07:24 PM).]

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
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Michigan, US


18 posted 12-27-2006 08:04 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I was merely saying that this topic seems rather silly. I didn't know I had no right to do so, my bad.

You have every right. But you're not the only one with such rights, so you shouldn't be surprised when someone asks you to actually justify your opinions. Nor should you be offended.
Edward Grim
Senior Member
since 12-18-2005
Posts 1112
Greenville, South Carolina


19 posted 12-27-2006 08:08 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

Was I hogging all the rights again? Dang, I do that sometimes, lol. Just kidding Ron.

I'm not surprised nor offended, I think I said that.


Happy New Year

And I said to the devil, "You better leave my spleen alone."

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


20 posted 12-27-2006 08:59 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

I'm the youngest one on this thread and I realize that these subjects seem rather unimportant for adults to be talking about.

Where does it all go? This seems to be a hobby at PiP's. Answers to questions like these won't be found on the interenet just like intelligent life.

Next time I'll keep my mout shut, but maybe not, cause this is fun for me.



But, Edward, you're smarter than everyone at PIP, even everyone on the internet.  How can this possibly be fun for you?  Engaging in such unimportant activity?

Surely you have more important things to think about.

quote:

So you're saying that children have all the answers and adults can only ask questions? That's seems pretty backwards to me.



Yes, you do not understand.

Youth is the only excuse for immaturity.

It is sad how old I was when I was young.  When I grow up, I hope to be a child.

Edward Grim
Senior Member
since 12-18-2005
Posts 1112
Greenville, South Carolina


21 posted 12-27-2006 09:41 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

"But, Edward, you're smarter than everyone at PIP, even everyone on the internet.  How can this possibly be fun for you?  Engaging in such unimportant activity?"


LOL, man you seem tightly wound. If I even implied that I'm smarter than everyone, then I apologize. I didn't mean to take your title away, lol. Look dude, I'm just messin around here, you're getting too sensitive. I'm not smart buddy, I'm just too sarcastic. These discussions are fun, but not for you maybe. Don't take it so seriously.


"Surely you have more important things to think about."

Sure, like ducks... I love ducks.
"Youth is the only excuse for immaturity."

Well, then how young are you?
"When I grow up, I hope to be a child."

Wishes do come true.

This seems to be getting bigger than the both of us. If I offended you, my bad, I'm sorry. I was just havin a bit of fun.

And call me Ed, you're not my mother, you don't have to use edward... Peace


And I said to the devil, "You better leave my spleen alone."
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


22 posted 12-27-2006 10:04 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

LOL, man you seem tightly wound. If I even implied that I'm smarter than everyone, then I apologize. I didn't mean to take your title away, lol. Look dude, I'm just messin around here, you're getting too sensitive. I'm not smart buddy, I'm just too sarcastic. These discussions are fun, but not for you maybe. Don't take it so seriously.



My daughter decided it would be fun to pants my son in front of his friends.

"It was just a joke" she said.

"We were just playing around.  Look, I'm sorry ok?"

I'm wondering though, if you can guess who didn't get the joke at all, Edward?

Do you think my son thought it was funny?

Edward Grim
Senior Member
since 12-18-2005
Posts 1112
Greenville, South Carolina


23 posted 12-27-2006 10:16 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

Wow...

I had no idea you were getting so upset about our discussion. The fact that you just said what you did, makes me think you are very upset. I didn't mean to "pants" you. I didn't realize that having a conversation was so embarrassing. I guess I'll just end it here.


     -  Ed
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


24 posted 12-27-2006 10:31 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

When you insulted everyone on planet Earth Ed, that was levity.  Trite and hack, sure, but -- we specialize in that when it comes to levity

You went on, rather unfortunately, to insult Ron, his forums, and everyone who participates in discussion threads.

Hopefully, you can, in the future, learn to debate one of our (pointless) points, instead of trying to take on the entire universe at once.

THAT is fun.... when people learn from each other.
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