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Swamp Problems

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Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


25 posted 12-13-2006 05:07 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Mike,

Why don't you just come out and admit it?

You don't believe in the separation of powers.

quote:
. . . you paint an interesting scenario where the power could be used for nefarious activities against one political party by another but I don't think it's that simple. How easy do you think it was to get a search warrant for his office? Do you really think the FBI could just go to a judge and say that some so-and-so's claim Senator Stickyfingers engaged in criminal activities and the judge would just turn one over? I find that highly unlikely. I know a little about how hard it is to get a search warrant for common police cases and I'm sure it is a thousand times more difficult to get one involving the properties of members of the Senate. I cannot imagine a judge issuing one without an extremely high belief that the warrant is justified. The FBI doesn't just go "prancing" into a Senator's office and I'm sure you know that.


For someone as cynical as you, it' amazing how trusting you can be.

I guess we can all long for the good old days of G-men and Hoover.

But you gotta back me up on the need for more arabic fluent analysts, right?

Balladeer
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Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


26 posted 12-13-2006 06:05 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LOL! Believe me, if we were back in the days of Hoover, I'd be agreeing with LR all the way!

....but we're not and, no, I'm not that trusting but there are a lot more check and balances since Hoover days. Search warrants aren't handed out like party favors and there's a reporter looking for bylines hidden behind every tree. If any political party tried to use bogus means to raid congressional offices, you would be seeing it on the evening news the same day. Come on....all of this chatter about the FBI  committing the crime and destruction of the constitution and violation of rights is just smoke to get away from the fact that Jefferson broke the law. It's not much different than Johnny Cochran screaming out, "Detective Fuhrman used the N word.....O.J. is innocent!!!"  The FBI did a good job. Their reward is to be used for target practice by liberals and senators. Too bad more of you (not meaning you, personally, Brad) can't set aside the political bias and rhetoric. I assure you that many of the names claiming foul on the FBI's role would be applauding them if the congressman accused were republican. Fortunately, the majority of the American people are more unbiased. Bush's popularity rating is somewhere areund 30% and yet 86% saw nothing wrong the FBI's actions or with searching congressional offices.

those whose intentions are to point fingers in other directions to mis-direct the heat will continue to do so but, at the end of the say, Jefferson will still be a crook.
Ron
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Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


27 posted 12-13-2006 07:10 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Fortunately, the majority of the American people are more unbiased. Bush's popularity rating is somewhere areund 30% and yet 86% saw nothing wrong the FBI's actions or with searching congressional offices.

Yea, but unfortunately, Mike, those are the same people who believe the police should be free to search anyone's car in Florida just because they are on the wrong freeway heading north and have dark skin. Those are the same people who rail against criminals getting off on technicalities and use the word like it only had four letters. Those are the same people who don't believe the innocent need to be protected from bad law, as long as it means THEY are protected from bad people.

Those are the same people who believe the end justifies the means.

Just out of curiosity, Mike, since you don't appear to believe that Congress should be protected from the Administrative branch, I'm wondering what's your take on Executive Privilege?  


Balladeer
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Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


28 posted 12-14-2006 04:16 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

That's quite a reply, Ron. You are claiming that 86% of the population believes in unwarranted searches because a person is not all-white? This large percentage believes that citizens don't need to be protected from bad law? They don't believe criminals should get off on technicalities?  It would be interesting to know where you get your facts to back up these claims.....or are you just saying that those who hold a view different from yours, even if they number 86% of the population, are all pure "end justifies the means" folks?

The actual truth of the matter is that 86% of the population feel that there is nothing wrong with searching a suspected criminal's dwellings if a warrant is issued and there is reasonable belief that evidence is present - even if that suspected criminal happens to be a member of Congress. 86% don't believe congressmen should be given a free pass when it comes from prosecution of criminal activities. Almost 9 out of ten Americans believe that the laws should apply to everyone equally. Now, if you want to take that to construct the above claims and brand them all as "ends justifies the means" people who are only interested in results regardless of how they are obtained, you are doing them an injustice and insulting this large majority just to try to prove some point that only 14% of the people agree with.

since you don't appear to believe that Congress should be protected from the Administrative branch...

I said no such thing and don't even see where that enters in here. Forget Congress....forget administrative branch....we are talking about a criminal investigation, a sting operation conducted by the FBI where evidence was uncovered and a warrant was issued to find further evidence in a search of the alleged criminal's abode....period. Had it been against a mobster or private citizen I'm sure you would have found nothing wrong with it but, since it was a congressman, somehow it gets changed into a "Administrative against the Congress" battle.

What do I think about executive privilege?

As presidents since George Washington and Thomas Jefferson have argued, the separation of powers embodied in the United States Constitution implies that each branch will be permitted to operate within limits free to some degree from the control or supervision of the other.

That's fine but what does it have to do with a criminal investigation of one member?

The most interesting line in the Wikipedia definition is this:

The concept of executive privilege is a legally murky one, and the Constitution does not mention it

There you have it, basically. All of the talk and finger-pointing about it being against the Constitution is hogwash. It's not even there. What do I think about it? I'm against it. I believe, as I mentioned before, that all individuals should be subjected to the same rules as all others. I would not respect any member of congress or the administration who tried to invoke it to cover a crime.

President Bill Clinton did the same when agreeing to testify before the grand jury called by Independent Counsel Kenneth Starr only after negotiating the terms under which he would appear.

I consider that bull. Terms for appearing before a grand jury after being subpoened are not to be dictated by defendants.

I  guess, Ron, I'm saying I'm one of those damnable 86% who believes the laws should apply to all.....God help us!
 
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