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Passions in Poetry

Jesus......REJECTED!

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serenity blaze
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100 posted 11-23-2006 05:26 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Thank you hush.

The natives here just laugh at that stuff now.

It is the truth that Hurricane Katrina effectively canceled last year's scheduled Southern Decadence festival (that would be like, um, a GAY carnival ARH) so surely there MUST BE A CONNECTION. (The all caps is sarcatic yelling just for your benefit, hush. )

But let's take a moment and think, shall we? Or try. Nod. Let's try.

Hurricane Katrina, actually MISSED New Orleans. Had the levees contained the massive tidal surge, this argument would be null and void.

Actually, I think it's null and void anyhow.

It not only missed New Orleans, but if you KNOW New Orleans, then you would know that the sections of the city that the majority of our very vocal gay community reside in were virtually untouched.

That's right.

The French Quarter? Ya'll didn't see that blown away, did you? I didn't. I didn't even see water in the streets there. Nor was there any in neighboring Faubourg Marigny, nor the gorgeous renovo jobs off Magazine, and it was close, but nope, not even the section of the Garden District.

So hmmm---either God took a swipe at all the queers and MISSED--or, using the logic of ARH, God just hates rednecks? (That is a good natured joke-word, as referenced by Jeff Foxworthy of "You might be a redneck if..." fame, no offense intended to our fellow Katrina victims in Mississippi and Alabama, who btw, are not forgotten by the REMAINING residents of New Orleans.)

So do tell doomsday prophets, who had sinned in those states?

Or in Florida the previous year, when they were unmercifully pounded with three Hurricanes in a row?

Romantic Rose? I think you've snorted too much pollen dear.

Your logic, like New Orleans, is a wash.

Happy Thanksgiving sweetie.

(and serenity loves hush. You too, C. MUAH)

And actually, I got more offended for two of our more silent members of Pip who virtually lost everything they owned in St. Bernard.

serenity blaze
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101 posted 11-23-2006 05:29 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Bettie has something to say.

She also lost everything to Hurricane Katrina, but she said a prayer of gratitude today for her family and her feast, reunited AT HOME, IN SIN CITY, with her family.

This little lady says the rosary at least once a day.

I'd love to hear you say that to my mother in law's face.

I could sell tickets.
Stephanos
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102 posted 11-23-2006 09:02 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Why not admit that there is much unexplained, which warrants our thoughtful sensitivity (in making statements of judgement), and yet still keep an open mind when it comes to the connection between divine wrath and the power and terror of nature?  It's not the first time such connections have been made, and I'm not sure that they've all been mistaken about that ... though I'm not inclined to think that every would-be-preacher is right either.  It seems the safest, least cocky place to stay, ideologically speaking.  


Just a plea for balance, for all.  There may be even truth in the argument of the person(s) who aggravate us most.  


Stephen.  
serenity blaze
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103 posted 11-23-2006 09:38 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Sure.



I don't think Romantic Heart meant to hurt anybody's feelings. I truly don't.

I actually think that if she should come to New Orleans, especially during carnival, and wear one of those lovely vintage style costumes that I've seen pictures of her in, I think that she would be joyfully embraced by the gay community, and if she should happen to meet some of my gay friends, I truly believe she would see the beautiful humanity of them, and would reconsider her stance with this oft-repeated, and thoughtless tirade of "God's Wrath."

And some call it God's Wrath, I call it Earth Changes, so shrug...either way, the aftermath truly IS living hell.

But don't mistake my tone there for animosity--I am wearily amused actually.

Now, my mother-in-law, Bettie? She might require extra meds tonight--this kinda talk gets her going.

(ah...good, she's very calmly reading now--Nora Roberts--Bettie's a big fan of hers.)



And really--Love to All.

Ta!

Ron
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104 posted 11-23-2006 09:57 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
For the earth is our mother, nourishing all her children, bears, birds, fish and all men. The woods, the streams, everything on it belongs to everybody and is for the use of all.

Spoken by someone who clearly never tried to share a cave with a bear and her two cubs?
Brad
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105 posted 11-23-2006 10:08 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
I see a difference between what you have focused on, L.R. and what the founding fathers focused on: they spoke of inalienable rights endowed by the Creator (among these life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness), and you speak of government granted equal rights. Governments can't grant what God has already given. They can only respect, uphold and protect our God-given rights, which was the philosophy of the founders, or governments can disregard them by placing themselves on the throne.

Government granted rights can change with the wind, depending on the government. Creator-endowed rights stand, unchanged, for all time, whether a government protects and upholds them or not, whether I actually get to enjoy them or not. And I believe that governments are judged on that basis


I now understand why Natural Rights theory has always bothered me. It has nothing to do with protecting rights, it's a basis for judgement. One wonders how this argument plays in Myanmar.


quote:
Why not admit that there is much unexplained, which warrants our thoughtful sensitivity (in making statements of judgement), and yet still keep an open mind when it comes to the connection between divine wrath and the power and terror of nature?  It's not the first time such connections have been made, and I'm not sure that they've all been mistaken about that ... though I'm not inclined to think that every would-be-preacher is right either.  It seems the safest, least cocky place to stay, ideologically speaking.  

Just a plea for balance, for all.  There may be even truth in the argument of the person(s) who aggravate us most.


C'mon Stephen, are you kidding? What would happen if someone came on this site and said that 911 was Divine retribution from God? That America and its citizens, none of whom are innocent, deserved it and God's wrath will continue unless we all convert to the one true God, praise Allah?

I recognize that silence against such an onslaught is sometimes the best policy, but appeasement is not.

We were talking about dolls at the beginning of this thread were we not?

And still my basic point is the same. As a harmless gift, I just think it should have been left up to Toys for Tots. If it is a tool to advance a fundamentalist and theocratic agenda, then well, don't your words somehow just ring a little hollow?

For the record, I don't think you personally are involved in either fundamentalism or a theocratic agenda, but I don't think it does any of us much good to soften the bloody obvious.

  
Stephanos
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106 posted 11-23-2006 10:47 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
C'mon Stephen, are you kidding? What would happen if someone came on this site and said that 911 was Divine retribution from God? That America and its citizens, none of whom are innocent, deserved it unless we all convert to the one true God, praise Allah?

I'm not kidding anyone Brad.  Since you asked, I believe that such disasters are ultimately under the hand of God, for some purpose.  And divine "wrath" is a part of the picture, and a compelling reason for personal repentance.  If someone said that to me, the inaccuracies of Islamic religion aside, I would think that they were unwittingly right in many ways.  I don't believe in the exclusive "God Bless America" god who wears stars and stripes.  I do however think that some of our stars and stripes are heaven sent, to awaken us.  


It's only when we're so convinced that we don't somehow deserve wrath, that we are angered by the mere suggestion of it's expression in space-time.  Does that mean that we should glibly say it, often say it, or put on self righteousness?  No, quite the opposite.  I despise that attitude too.  Jesus was one who wept over Jerusalem on the eve of her demise.  And I respect most those who say such things with tears in their eyes, not sneers on their lips.  


But I can't help but to point out that reacting to bad taste, is no excuse for discarding the whole idea.  


Stephen.

  
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107 posted 11-23-2006 11:20 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I've never understood the "divine wrath" theory. We ask why God doesn't just make man perfect and free of tragedies and the answer comes that God created Man to make his own decisions. So then,by  making his own decisions, we are to understand that God will invoke his divine wrath on them if their decisions are not to His liking??? If God didn't want it to happen, then why allow it to happen in the first place?

Why is it so hard for people to understand that things can happen just because they happen?? Hurricanes can happen because there are hurricanes. They are no more an indication of God's wrath than early civilizations viewed an eclipse  as a sign ofan angry god and sacrificed people to appease him. Things happen.....period.

I refer once again to the bumper sticker that reads..

DEAR GOD...PLEASE  PROTECT ME FROM YOUR FOLLOWERS.
Brad
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108 posted 11-24-2006 12:08 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Stephen,

If I understand you correctly, doesn't it follow that natural disasters or disaster of any sort would have to be random?

That is, Mike's euphemistic, 'things happen'.

Otherwise, doesn't the idea that all sinners are equal in the eyes of God become

"All sinners are equal but some are more equal than others."?



JesusChristPose
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109 posted 11-24-2006 10:53 AM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

I agree with both Mike's and Brad's latest replies.

To me, it is completely silly to believe that a God would create people, give those people free-will, and then "have a hand" on killing those people through natural disasters, etc., because some, few, many, of those people don't have the capacity to understand EXACTLY what said God wants.

When I studied Christianity, I came away with a different view on why natural disasters occur, including why God allows suffering - a view that is much much more palatable and logical than the rantings of so-called christian preachers who say sinners deserve God's wrath.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

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110 posted 11-24-2006 11:51 AM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Mike? I want one of those bumper stickers!
And I am not Christian, Jew, Muslim, ...they all attempt to box the mind and soul within their own parameters, their walls.
But I just cannot imagine giving or receiving something so inherently commercially obscene as a bible spouting doll. At the very least, it is a lame lame gift! And if my daughter had ever been handed one such doll? (Chuckling here) Well, when given a Barbie doll, she took the clothes off, yanked the head off, then threw the whole pile into the trash can and went back inside to play with her 'my little kitties' and 'my little ponies'  I applauded her!
Stephanos
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111 posted 11-24-2006 06:10 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Brad and Balladeer,

I guess I'll respond by saying that the easiest way to discount something is to make a caricature of it ... or to mistake it for an extreme.  The picture of natural distasters and other occurences which may be called "divine judgement" in the Bible, is actually much more complex than any quick answer.  

The biblical examples of Divine wrath being expressed through weather, war, disease, are obvious.  But does that mean that every time there is ill weather, or a crippled child, that God's wrath is being expressed?  I think the theology of the book of Job, and Ecclesiastes deal with that question.  Such books were given to make us understand that our tendency to label are often misplaced, and cause others pain.  Just think of Job, who was told by "friends" that his personal sin was the root of his affliction.  Then the writer of that book had the audacity to attribute it to his righteousness!  And even in the New Testament, Jesus rebukes his disciples for assuming that a man was born blind because of his sin, or his parents.  


The other extreme, of course, is to discount the rest of the data we have ... to say that it's archaic, cruel, and superstitious to believe that God expresses displeasure through Earthly occurrences.  But if the one position tends to self righteousness, (in telling others that their sufferings are due to sin), so does this one.  We begin, humanistically, to think that we are beyond the deserving of such, that the communications of scripture which tell us that we are separated from God through sin, are wrong.  "We're pretty good people", I've felt my own heart say from time to time.  Until I realize how utterly presumptuous that is.


Does that mean that God is hurling lightning bolts?  Does that mean that such things should be viewed as active retribution?  I'm not sure.  I think an equally apt picture of judgement is a removal of protection.  Would God cause 9/11?  Would God lift a certain layer of protection, because of an increased tendency in the country for self reliance and impiety?  I think that's more than a possibility.


Is it just to hurt us and make us cry?  I think that's less probable.  Even Karen has reported that she's seen much human virtue arise out of such a situation.  I have no doubt that priorities change quite a bit under such duress, and neglected aspects of human nature are dusted off and reconsidered.  Church attendance was exposive immediately following 9/11.  Was it superficial?  Did it last?  That's another question.  But my point is that there are purposes, and reasons behind all such happenings that are connected with God's will.  That's not always a bad thing, though the tragedy is no less of a tragedy.


The same includes things which happen not as "judgement" at all.  Consider Job, where revelation was given, confidence restored, character sharpened.  I suppose that's my answer to Brad's statement about things being "random".  I'm not convinced, on one level, that they ever really are.  On a strictly physical level perhaps it can be interpreted that way, but my view of the world is more multi-layered than that.      


Don't tell me that I am ignoring the subtleties of life, with my view.  Scripturally all of this discussed and anticipated.  I'm only here to tell you that my view seems broader, not narrower than one that would discount divine wrath off hand.  And whenever I hear it attacked, I feel obligated to sound a warning of "p-please don't ...".  Not angry, am I.  Just that I am convinced of the reality of sin and judgement, that I want to sow the seed in the minds of those who seem to reject the idea.  And reintroduce a more subtle view, to those who have been offended by a more extreme view from some pulpit somewhere.


Thanks for listening,


Stephen.
serenity blaze
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112 posted 11-24-2006 06:25 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

quote:
Even Karen


*shaking my head*

I'm not sure if I want that explained...

Mysteria
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113 posted 11-24-2006 07:23 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

I did read this thread and had nothing to say until today on the news they showed the Muslims, and East Indians, busy putting up Christmas decorations.  The announcer of course started his interview, including questions about the Jesus and Moses dolls about to be marketed.

Now, these were recent citizens to Canada and they love the Christmas holiday season so much they volunteer to put up the city's decorations for the holidays too!  I loved it when asked, one man said, "Of course we celebrate, we love this holiday, and respect all religions."  "Our children attend school with many nationalities, we show our respect to our children's friends and their families in this way" said one lady.  She also said, "Yes we  might buy our children the doll just to show them what Jesus looks like and what he taught."  She then asked the announcer on CBC, "Don't you think we all need to understand other religions more in order to stop the hatred, war, and sheer ignorance?"  

I cheered, "You go gurl!"

For what it's worth, I think that Jesus doll looks like Al Pacino and I told Karen and Mike - but here you decide.
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114 posted 11-24-2006 07:37 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Karen,

I will explain, whether wanted or not.  

What I meant was, that you, who have seen more suffering and pain from natural distaster than any of us ... have still recognized blessings in the midst of, because of, and in spite of what happened.  It's much more credible from your mouth than from mine, that's why I mentioned it.  

Stephen.
serenity blaze
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115 posted 11-24-2006 07:48 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

ah sweetie?

I think maybe I just complained more.



serenity blaze
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116 posted 11-24-2006 07:50 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

and OMG...Shar?

that's hilarious...

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117 posted 11-24-2006 09:39 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

You expected different, Mysteria? God - Godfather...no explanation is necessary
serenity blaze
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118 posted 11-24-2006 09:53 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Not to be forgotten...Al Pacino as Satan in "The Devil's Advocate".

"Vanity" was his favorite sin.



*ahem*

Just to get us nearer to "on topic"

*cackle*
Balladeer
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119 posted 11-24-2006 10:00 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Stephen, thank you for taking the time to explain your position.

"We're pretty good people", I've felt my own heart say from time to time.  Until I realize how utterly presumptuous that is.

That is a fence that will always separate us. I happen to believe we ARE pretty good people and don't find it presumptious at all. I find it much more realistic than to believe we are unworthy creatures who should be constantly on our knees begging for forgiveness. If God really did create us in His image, I doubt he would use a derelict as his model. Show me a religion that preaches that Man is inherently good and worthy and I will show you a religions that will have me in the palm of its hand. Unfortunately the religions of the day prefer to have us buckle under the yoke of original sin, which we had no voice or choice in at all. I am not into self-immolation.....

I do believe that cause and effect has been the greatest weapon in religion's arsenal throughout the ages. For anything bad that happens to you, there is a priest who will tell you exactly why you deserved it. They will even tell New Orleans that the hurricane was the price of a lawless, gangter-filled, den of bars, strip joints, casinos and crooked politicians.......when, in reality, the only problem with New Orleans was that it happened to be in the path of a natural occurance.....a hurricane. For those who can realize that, they can make a new beginning and go on. Those who prefer the divine retribution philosophy will be convinced they are damned by their Creator and spend the rest of their lives cowering in fear. I think the church prefers the second choice...
JesusChristPose
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120 posted 11-24-2006 11:57 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Again, Mike makes much sense.

"... Church attendance was exposive immediately following 9/11.  Was it superficial?  Did it last?  That's another question.  But my point is that there are purposes, and reasons behind all such happenings that are connected with God's will.  That's not always a bad thing, though the tragedy is no less of a tragedy."

Stephanos,

I hope you are not suggesting that God assisted with or would allow 911 to occur in order to increase church attendance.




"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."
Stephanos
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121 posted 11-25-2006 01:40 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

JCP, your hope is not disappointed.  In the quote you used, I wrote that there are "reasons and purposes" connected with God's will.  I only mentioned church attendance as a crude outward indicator of spiritual intererst and desire.  And the importance of such things, even sometimes above temporal well-being, should be obvious to any casual student of the Bible.


Commenting on the doll, which I haven't done yet ... I think there are some pertinent questions to be asked:


1) Can there be a distinction between crass commercialism, and using something like a toy in order to teach and share?  


2) Can there be a distinction between doing something for political propaganda, and doing something out of a desire to share truth and beauty?

(as you answer #2, remember that most people are not prepared to politicize the actual words and deeds of Jesus ... rather insisting that the original purity was corrupted by the political and ill motives)


3)  Is poor taste merely a matter of opinion?  Would a child feel the same way?  And whose insight is more profound the child's or the adults?  



I'm not saying that I like the dolls, or even the idea of it.  It's kinda cheesy in a way.  But I think these questions are still worth asking.  



Stephen.
      
JesusChristPose
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122 posted 11-25-2006 02:47 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Stephanos,

How can a Christian condone creating an image of the Lord? Was Jesus a white man with dark brown hair and a beard? There is a commandment condemning making the Lord God into an image.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

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123 posted 11-25-2006 03:49 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Interesting fact.....there was a poll on MSNBC in which people were asked their opinion on the Jesus doll issue. The group that most overwhelmingly supported it were Muslim mothers. They claimed that it is a good idea to expose their children to the fact that there are other religions, what their leaders look like and what their philosophies are. They stated they would happily allow their children to have the doll.

How about that, sports fans?
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124 posted 11-25-2006 06:54 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Mothers know best.
 
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