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Passions in Poetry

Jesus......REJECTED!

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Essorant
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50 posted 11-18-2006 03:38 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I'm glad they came to their senses.
Balladeer
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51 posted 11-18-2006 06:58 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Thank you, Amy

My growing up and gotten smart comment was, of course, a little sarcasm on my part. I wish we could ALL maintain the innocence of youth.

Also, there is nothing wrong with you mentally categorizing people by  their ethnicicity, religion or even physical attributes. For many countries in the world, that is the accepted norm. In South America it is customary and even a term of endearment to nickname someone "flacko" (skinny), "gordo" (fat) or "negro". Why there and not here?.....because we lead the world in being offended. Our feelings get hurt much more easily, it seems....either that or we are more on the lookout for things to complain about. No Venezuelan, for example, would ever get offended by such descriptiveness. When I was living there, there was a black soccer player who was nationally famous. When he was on a breakout running down the field, all you could hear were screams of "Vaya, mi negro!" (Go, my negro). Imagine screaming that out here!!LOL! No, we worry too much about being "correct" and we have so many people willing to raise hell for pathetic reasons.

In  this case, for example, let's suppose Toys for Tots sent a Jesus doll to your house. You are Muslim or Jewish. What are your choices?

(1) you can give it to your child and  explain what it stands for.

(2) You can not give it to your child but recognize that Toys For Tots does not really know the religious preferences of its receiptients so you don't get offended or bothered by it. Perhaps you give it to a Christian friend of yours so he can give it to HIS child.

(3) You can get offended. You can scream about how can someone make such a stupid mistake. You can yell about how offensive this action was. You can call your friends, the radio stations, the newspapers, your lawyer and let everyone know how displeased you are. You can rave about attempts to brainwash your child. You can call Toys for Tots idiots.

Unfortunately, in this country, we have too many who would go the number three route...and we see evidence of it every day in many facets of life. We lead the world in many things. Tolerance is not one of them....
Brad
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52 posted 11-18-2006 07:18 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Mike,

I agree.

Our only difference here perhaps is that you think they gave the doll for 'innocent' reasons. I think they gave the doll knowing full well that this would happen.

Grinch
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53 posted 11-18-2006 07:52 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

I'd go for number three but replace the ranting with simply throwing the doll in the bin.

I've no respect for any religious group that uses blatant propaganda in favour of their beliefs and tries to palm it off to kids as a charitable act. This group didn't make Jesus figures for fun but for profit and with the intention of spreading their belief by introducing kids to Jesus, offering them as a charitable gift just makes their intention that much more insidious.

I see no difference between receiving a Christian icon disguised as a doll as an icon from the moonies or the KKK - they're all promoting a belief I don't want my kids exposed to until they can understand the agenda behind the gifts. By the time that happens though I suspect they'd be way past playing with dolls.

Balladeer
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54 posted 11-18-2006 09:57 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Perfect answer, grinch. If you object to it, throw it away and go on with your life. Why can't others see the simplicity of that?


Brad, I can't  say I disagree with ulterior motives. If that's the case, they are pretty smart because they got results. Interesting to gamble and win on the presumed actions and reactions of American mentality.
Denise
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55 posted 11-18-2006 10:36 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I always thought that the Toys for Tots program, particulary during the Christmas Season appeal, was primarily about providing Christmas presents for less fortunate children of households that celebrate Christmas. But I can see that maybe they also provide Hanukkah gifts as well. But what gift giving holiday do the Muslims celebrate at this time of year? And what would be so difficult for the charity to simply ask which holiday the potential recipients celebrate? Or for the potential recipients to advise the charity which holiday they celebrate?

And why would anyone be anything other than gracious when they are the recipient of another's charity?
Grinch
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56 posted 11-19-2006 07:05 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

Denise,

quote:
And why would anyone be anything other than gracious when they are the recipient of another's charity?


Because the underlying motives may be anything but charitable, if you don't believe me ask the Trojans.  

In this case one2believe are fairly clear as to their intentions:

"Just as in the days of the Judges in Israel we believe that teaching Bible stories to a child is the precursor to a relationship with God."

"A child's spiritual development is our mission and the focus of our passion."

"We at one2believe feel compelled by God to research and produce as many different ministry tools for parents and educators as we can."

"We are dedicating ourselves to the spiritual development of children and their lasting faith in our Lord and savior Jesus Christ."

"By creating an atmosphere where children become fascinated with Bible stories, their inquisitive nature about spiritual things can be sparked and nurtured."

"It is in a child's early developmental years that they need to be introduced to the Lord."


These are all statements taken from their website http://www.one2believe.com/mission/  which is fairly blatant in it's message that
these dolls are not toys but tools with which to indoctrinate children into the Christian faith. In my opinion that's just another version of the Trojan horse tactic which in turn is no different from handing out free samples of drugs to kids outside the school gates in the hope they'll get hooked.

I believe that despite advice to the contrary you should always look a gift horse in the mouth just in case there's a bunch of sword wielding Greeks in its belly.  

Balladeer
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57 posted 11-19-2006 09:13 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

these dolls are not toys but tools with which to indoctrinate children into the Christian faith

Then I have to ask...who does the indoctrination? Do the children, upon seeing a Jesus doll, suddenly become overwhelmed to be a part of Christianity? Do they jump up and scream, "I believe!!!"?  

You are right, grinch. They are TOOLS for a parent to use, should they choose to. If they choose not to, then toss 'em in the dump. TV is filled with religious services and sermons every Sunday. That's also a tool. If you don't want your child exposed to it, you simply don't turn on that station. How much simpler can it be? You don't berate the station for putting it on...you just ignore it. BY what you have said here, you despise ANY organization that would attempt to influence for religion's sake, so you must despise all of those programs, too, which bring church services into your home. You must also be against any radio station that would play "We Three Kings of Orient Are", or "Oh, Holy Night" around Christmas on stations that your child may be exposed to.

Your Trojan Horse comparison is a little weak. Let's make a more comparable comparison. The wooden horse gets wheeled into your city and you open it. Inside there are soldiers. The leader of the soldiers says, "Take us out, arm us, and allow us to murder, ravage and pillage your city". You can either do so or shut the hatch and keep them away from you. What do you do? A religious doll is not a soldier who is going to cut your son's throat, nor is it Chucky in "Child's Play", who has the power to overtake your son's soul and turn him into a monster. As you stated, it's only a tool for you to use as a parent, should you choose to do so. If not, then just go back to your original statement and toss it in the dump and let it go. There are enough things in the world to show disdain for or despise than choosing a religious toy company giving out religious gifts for underpriviledged children, wouldn't you say?

Oh, and your comparison to drugs borders on the incredible. I read somewhere that drugs are addictive. You don't pass them out "in the hopes" someone will get hooked. You pass them out to INSURE someone gets hooked, which will turn them into junkies, which will destroy their families, earnings,health and lives and lead them to jail. If you feel exposure to a religious doll will cause the same damage, you have pole-vaulted over Ron and LR for the crown of the king of amazing comparisons
Brad
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58 posted 11-19-2006 04:09 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Since Mike brought it up:

Mathew 10:22

"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death."

Either it's not that big a deal or it's that important.

Grinch
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59 posted 11-19-2006 04:52 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


I don't mind using your Trojan horse comparison Mike as long as the person the soldiers ask is a four year old kid, the outcome is the same, something unwanted and unasked for is smuggled in using a device that's supposed to be a gift. The gullibility of the person who receives the gift doesn't reduce the nature of the original intent.

quote:
Oh, and your comparison to drugs borders on the incredible. I read somewhere that drugs are addictive. You don't pass them out "in the hopes" someone will get hooked. You pass them out to INSURE someone gets hooked, which will turn them into junkies, which will destroy their families, earnings,health and lives and lead them to jail. If you feel exposure to a religious doll will cause the same damage, you have pole-vaulted over Ron and LR for the crown of the king of amazing comparisons


So if I can provide one example that religion has destroyed families, earnings, health and lives and lead people into jail the comparison is acceptable but my pole-vaulting abilities are called into question?

I can live with that.

Northern Ireland is scattered with examples of religion leading to all of the above.
serenity blaze
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60 posted 11-19-2006 05:01 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

What would Jesus Do?

There is also some evidence in the New Testament that Jesus himself was outraged by crass commercialism. Wasn't there a little incident of him turning over the tables of the moneychangers outside of the temple?



And yer right though, let's not blow this out of proportion. It's a bad product, in poor taste.

Now.

If we agree on that--we can move on to personal responsibility regarding crass commercialism. We can move on to the nauseating spectacle of Orenthal James Simpson.

sigh.

There are moments when I am embarrassed by my own culture.
Denise
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61 posted 11-19-2006 06:28 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Our Passion is to confront children with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We know that if a child has a foundational understanding of the Bible and its stories, they will be tender toward developing a relationship with Jesus.

Research studies show that parents feel primarily responsible for the spiritual development of their children yet at the same time feel poorly equipped to bring their children to faith*. David Socha, head of one2believe says, “Over the years I have heard from many parents and friends that want to teach their children Bible stories, but are unsure of the stories themselves. This year as part of our mission to teach 10 million children Bible stories our ministry one2believe has decided to put the 50 greatest stories together and make it available to anyone who wanted them, free.”

Besides being a great resource for parents, the stories give pastors and Sunday school teachers a way to introduce the children in their church to the Bible in an easy to understand format. “We have found that for many children the size of the Bible can be a little overwhelming, our hope is these stories will get them excited about their faith and lead them into further learning.” Socha adds.

In regards to the one2believe's lofty goal of teaching 10 million children Bible stories in 2 years, Socha says “God willing, this free e-book along with the high impact, low maintenance church fundraising program that we have established around our Messengers of Faith dolls will enable us to teach a large number of children rather quickly.”

Committed to using the talents God has given him, David has created one2believe with the intention of creating ministry tools and other merchandise for the faith-based community.


These folks don't sound like crass commercialists to me. They sound like they have a genuine desire, a ministry, to make bible stories accessable and understandable to children. And most importantly they do so through the parents, pastors, Sunday school teachers, etc., not behind their backs or against their wishes. Nobody is sneaking a Trojan Horse into their midst.
Balladeer
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62 posted 11-19-2006 06:50 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

grinch, if you are going to move on to compare gifting Jesus dolls to the war in  Northern Ireland, your pole-vaulting crown is not only secure, you have won the decathalon!

It's my understanding that the parents have the say  about whether the children get the gift or not. In that case, your Trojan Horse edit won't work and the only way the drug one will is if the pushers give the drugs to the parents and tell THEM to give them to their kids.

See, this is a good example of why our society and legal system is so screwed up. Someone takes a small topic like this....offering religious dolls to underprivileged kids....and in no time we're making comparisons to drug dealers and religious wars. Come on, people. See it for the small thing it is. No wars are going to be started because of it. It's not going to spawn a horde of religious zealots. No one's life is going to be thrown into complete turmoil because their child was exposed to it. No device has  yet been created which can measure the insignifigance of this protesting.

You want to protest against whatever may try to influence your child in a religious way around Christmas time? You are going to be very busy. Christmas is actually a religious holiday here. You will be protesting against  tv shows, radio selections, lit up trees in people's yards, Salvation Army Santas, decorations, Santa's workshops, school posters....the list goes on with all the things that can influence the youngsters.

Isn't it easier to just toss the doll in the dump if you find it so dangerous or defensive and go on with your life?
Brad
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63 posted 11-19-2006 07:12 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

So it's not important.

Fair enough.

Yet, why not then let toys for tots make up their own mind?

Why start a thread with Jesus . . . REJECTED?

Who began this thread trying to be inflammatory?

What if it were, gasp, teletubbies?

What if it were only the purple ones with, I forget, the triangle on top?

I suppose, in a sense, I'm agreeing with you, Mike.

Note to self: must stop doing that, makes me feel uncomfortable.

Not A Poet
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64 posted 11-19-2006 07:23 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

Jeez, Brad almost agreeing with Mike. Now that's making me uncomfortable.
Balladeer
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65 posted 11-19-2006 07:47 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Good question, Brad. I started the thread in a controversial way. Why? Because I feel sure that the Marines didn't reject the offer  due to concerns about children being tainted. I believe they rejected it because they felt that public opinion of a few would turn it into a major publicity screamfest. Well, it did...except the loudest screaming turned out to be by the majority and FOR the acceptance of the dolls. There is hope  yet...

Brad, thanks for agreeing with me but please don't make a habit of it. It makes ME nervous, too!
Local Rebel
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66 posted 11-19-2006 07:53 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I see no reason for you to insult Ron or Grinch by comparing either of them to me!
latearrival
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67 posted 11-19-2006 08:09 PM       View Profile for latearrival   Email latearrival   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for latearrival

The way it works in my work place, volunteers at our offices work with the Marines to distribute the toys.  They are already at it, gathering and collecting toys to be put in a large storage place. They take personal leave days as it does take a lot of time.  They have a telephone number and people who sign up for the toys give the gender and ages of  the children to be given a toy. We had a room stocked with bicycles one year and people who called in and asked for one were given a time and day to come and pick up a bike. It has become such a big project that we no longer use our building. They had received the donation of a storage area from one of the larger Real Estate offices in town. The same with the other toys. They were not just given out to anyone. So no “Talking Doll” of any religion was going to go to just any one.  It would certainly be easy enough for whoever is handling the toy collection to call and ask any church if they would like the dolls. I would presume a Fundamental type church would love to have them. Such  an easy solution.

latearrival
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68 posted 11-19-2006 08:14 PM       View Profile for latearrival   Email latearrival   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for latearrival

Just had a question come to mind? If these workers give up four or five days of their personal leave time to these charitable projects, can they then take a deduction from their income tax? I always wondered how or why they give up so much time. My supervisor is rarely around at Toys for Tots time and either is the front desk first shift gal.
Local Rebel
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69 posted 11-19-2006 08:19 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

The IRS does not allow donations of 'time' as deductible charitible contributions.
latearrival
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70 posted 11-19-2006 08:23 PM       View Profile for latearrival   Email latearrival   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for latearrival

Thank you.
Ron
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71 posted 11-19-2006 10:27 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
The way it works in my work place ...

I worked with Toys for Tots in 1971, when I was TAD to a Marine Reserve Base, Martyjo, and things were much different back then. We not only collected the toys, often refurbishing used ones by hand, but also distributed them as well. That all changed in 1991, when the Toys for Tots Foundation was established as a separate entity and the individual Marines were distanced from the families and children being served. I have no doubt it was more efficient.

quote:
Well, it did...except the loudest screaming turned out to be by the majority and FOR the acceptance of the dolls. There is hope yet.

In this case, Mike, I don't think it mattered which side yelled the loudest, only that there was a whole lot of yelling.

According to Bill Grein, VP of the Marine Toys for Tots Foundation, "We realized it's a lot less time-consuming to find homes for the dolls than it is to answer media and complaints." Finding appropriate placement for the dolls was the lesser of two evils, but I'm not sure I can interpret that to mean either of the two evils was desirable. Essentially, the Beverly Hills Teddy Bear Co. managed to force the Marines into spending time on them one way or another, time that ostensibly could have been better invested and served more kids elsewhere.

This is from the official Toys for Tots site:

"Over the 58 years of the U.S. Marine Corps Reserve Toys for Tots Program, Marines have distributed more than 351 million toys for 166 million needy children. This charitable endeavor has made U.S. Marines the unchallenged leaders in looking after needy children at Christmas. Over its 15 year life span, the Marine Toys for Tots Foundation has supplemented local toy collections with more than 64.5 million toys valued at more than $344 million; plus has provided promotion and support materials valued at over $3.9 million."

These are the people whose judgment couldn't be trusted when it came to distributing Jesus dolls.


hush
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72 posted 11-20-2006 05:03 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

'Christmas is actually a religious holiday here. You will be protesting against  tv shows, radio selections, lit up trees in people's yards, Salvation Army Santas, decorations, Santa's workshops, school posters....the list goes on with all the things that can influence the youngsters.'

Mike, you know as well as I do that Santa and decorated trees have nothing to do with Jesus. Heck, my Christmas tree is up already. I'm sure you're also aware that the story of Jesus' birth and the term 'Christmas' were introduced to give a new face to the pagan celebration of Saturnalia. (How could you not- there's a debate about that here on the boards every year too.)

In America, some people do find Christmas a very religious time of year... but a lot of people celebrate it secularly, as well.

My Jesus doll would have been preaching to my dogs, because it would have been a dog chew-toy.
Balladeer
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73 posted 11-20-2006 07:30 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

SOME people find it a religious holiday? A fantastic understatement there, Amy. Well, when the star on top of the tree stops representing the star over Bethlehem, when Santa is not called SAINT Nicholas, when the exchange of gifts do not represent the gifts the three wise men laid before Jesus, when the songs associated with Christmas do not refer to little towns in Bethlehem, holy nights, away in mangers, kings of orient are, when the CHRIST part is removed from CHRISTmas, then I'll believe people do not regard it s a religious holiday.

As for your other comment....hey, even dogs can use a little taste of religion!
Christopher
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74 posted 11-20-2006 11:07 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

I think I'm more offended that it's not even Thanksgiving yet and Amy already has her tree up!!!
 
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