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Passions in Poetry

Jesus......REJECTED!

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Ron
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25 posted 11-16-2006 07:05 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Patriotism, yes. Ethics & familial love though... we're talking here about something that a parent can gain a measure of control over.

Ah, I misunderstood your concern, Christopher. It's not that brainwashing someone with "no substantial means of rational objectiveness" is bad, then, so much as it's just a job that should be left to the parent?


Alicat
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26 posted 11-16-2006 08:08 AM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

I can't really help but feel that this 'anti-Christian' incident had little to do with religion, and more to do with quarterly tax estimates.  Toys-for-Tots is a large, well-respected, charitible nonprofit organization, so the IRS knows they are legit.  Most action figures are not inexpensive or small.  So, take 10,000 of them, donate them, and bingo!: charitible donation tax shelter.  If the dolls are accepted, good deal: tax deductions from nonprofit donations.  If the dolls are refused, cause a media stink about 'Christian bashing' even while exploiting Christianity, write the action figures off as a loss, and enjoy a nice tax break before the end of the quarter while still getting media coverage, free advertising to untapped markets and further Christian exploitation.
serenity blaze
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27 posted 11-16-2006 11:09 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I'm just wondering if Christopher would rather write than argue now?



Christopher
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28 posted 11-16-2006 11:20 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

quote:
Ah, I misunderstood your concern, Christopher. It's not that brainwashing someone with "no substantial means of rational objectiveness" is bad, then, so much as it's just a job that should be left to the parent?
Come now, Ron, please.

I would most sincerely be interested in a method of rearing children that would ensure they weren't brainwashed, mistreated, ignored, abused, etc., etc., etc. Of course, we can write something into the constitution, homogenize our culture and live in harmonious sameness until society crumbles around us for lack of stimulus or growth.

Or, we can take the opportunities we have and do the best we can within our individual belief structures. Does that mean I support parents who take their children to church at young ages? Absolutely - that's something that fits within their beliefs. Does that mean I think they're right to do so? No, but what I believe should have no bearing on the rearing of another's child, should it?

In my house, we focus on questions and understanding, on working on problems and thinking things through. I mention some of these things to people I work with and they kind of laugh, pointing out that my son is only two and really doesn't have the cognitive capability to reason things through. They haven't seen him in action though, so it's understandable. He amazes me constantly with his ability to approach a problem and work on it, usually achieving some plan by which to resolve it - that it's not always tenable doesn't negate in any manner that he thought it through.

I suppose there could be some argument to say that teaching a child to think for themselves is a form of brainwashing, but I don’t believe it would hold much water. I support actions such as asking a child “why?”

“Why is that wrong?”

“Why do we not hit the dog?” (we ask this a lot, he still disagrees with the reasoning as to why this is a bad thing, lol)

“Why do we say thank you?”

“Why…?”

I have sworn to myself to never drop a “because I said so,” or “that’s just the way it is,” or – the worst, “do as I say, not as I do.” I believe every question by a child should be answered (and boy is that tiring sometimes). But I would prefer some questions come at later times. I really don’t want to try to explain religion to my son when he’s three or four. Nor would I want to explain sex to him that early either.

Can I get everything right? Probably not even most. But why should my job be made more difficult by someone else’s interference? Why should I accept someone else’s toys or rhetoric that will counter my wishes just to make them happy that they’re forwarding their own agenda? Where does freedom of speech and religion translate to freedom to interfere?
Brad
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29 posted 11-16-2006 12:22 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
I can't really help but feel that this 'anti-Christian' incident had little to do with religion, and more to do with quarterly tax estimates.  Toys-for-Tots is a large, well-respected, charitible nonprofit organization, so the IRS knows they are legit.  Most action figures are not inexpensive or small.  So, take 10,000 of them, donate them, and bingo!: charitible donation tax shelter.  If the dolls are accepted, good deal: tax deductions from nonprofit donations.  If the dolls are refused, cause a media stink about 'Christian bashing' even while exploiting Christianity, write the action figures off as a loss, and enjoy a nice tax break before the end of the quarter while still getting media coverage, free advertising to untapped markets and further Christian exploitation.


Yep, that's how I see it too.  

Almost.
serenity blaze
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30 posted 11-16-2006 12:49 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Is no one curious as to what they look like?
http://money.cnn.com/2005/04/12/news/midcaps/jesus_dolls/


Hmmm....interesting. I'd always wondered m'self.
Christopher
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31 posted 11-16-2006 01:18 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

quote:
They will also have movable limbs and hands that can grip objects.
How long do you think it will be until some little boy puts a GI Joe gun in his hands and has him acting like the Terminator?
serenity blaze
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32 posted 11-16-2006 01:20 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Oh Boy.

I just showed them to my 78-year old mother in law who proclaimed them as "sacrilege."

I didn't have to point out that she owns several statues--she brought the point up herself; and she conceded that the statues confused her a bit too, but at least they aren't toys.

And she wanted her opinion in here, so here it is, Bettie. (I would give Bettie her own membership, but she's afraid of computers--not so much the actual machine, but the temptation of online gambling is "evil".)

There.

I think she's done.  

OH.

Maybe not.

Sheesh. What hath I wrought?

(She's gonna go on about this one for days I'll bet.)

*laughing*

She just asked me to not show this to my husband--'cause her son is dumb enough to buy one for her.

And it's "sacrilege" she tells ya!

*shaking my head*

I don't think I'm too bright either.
Susan Caldwell
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33 posted 11-16-2006 04:17 PM       View Profile for Susan Caldwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Susan Caldwell

I have a lot to say about this but I don't feel like typing...

meh...

Thank you Karen for typing for your Mother- in-law.  She makes me smile and miss..well, everything.

This from Michael:

"At the same time, millions of kids DID receive these toys and were not turned  into psychopaths by them."

it's a different world....*sigh* it's just a way different world.  

oh and this...I did get exposure to many different religions as a kid...and I was very, very scared of the following:

-hell
-armageddon
-a vengeful "god"
-bad people (that didn't believe)
-the fact that the 144,000 had already been chosen
-snakes

and now I have typed most of it anyway..

"too bad ignorance isn't painful"
~Unknown~

Not A Poet
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34 posted 11-16-2006 06:14 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

Have to change the argument now. Toys For Tots has now agreed to accept the dolls after all.
Christopher
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35 posted 11-16-2006 06:17 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

Anyone have some extra copies of Origin of the Species we can send along with the dolls?
Balladeer
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36 posted 11-16-2006 06:46 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Chris, I think YOUR son is the only two-year-old who could understand Darwin.


Well, now that the groundwork has been laid, let's see how many lawsuits are filed by enraged parents claiming irreparable mental damage to their youngsters
Midnitesun
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37 posted 11-16-2006 07:18 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

LOL, Michael, my daughter at the tender age of two was asking Q's that would have made Darwin smile.
I actually like the idea of Darwinian dolls!
serenity blaze
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38 posted 11-16-2006 07:36 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Kacy?

They could be TRANSFORMERS!!!

Brad
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39 posted 11-16-2006 07:56 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
Well, now that the groundwork has been laid, let's see how many lawsuits are filed by enraged parents claiming irreparable mental damage to their youngsters


Exactly, with the publicity, we've probably got a few lawyers ready to pounce on it. And if we're really lucky we'll have a few lawsuits just in time for the O'Reilly annual Christmas jihad.

Oh, and if the parents win, we can all complain about the judiciary again.

It's a win/win situation.

You can say one thing about these guys, they ain't stupid.

Local Rebel
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40 posted 11-16-2006 08:38 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/prehistoric_life/games/evolution/
serenity blaze
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41 posted 11-16-2006 09:04 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

"I coulda been a contendah..."

inot2B
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42 posted 11-17-2006 01:18 AM       View Profile for inot2B   Email inot2B   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for inot2B

Can you see a group of people donating a bunch of dolls resembling the U.S. Presidents. I'm talking about talking dolls.
Would they be allowed to spew their propaganda.  I see that happening and yet dolls who resemble Jesus are found questionable because he tells bible stories.  Please if it offends The Toy for Tots I hope they give them to a Christian Church to be shared with families who are thankful somebody was able to give their child a gift.  May God forgive those who don't know it was meant as a gift from the heart not to brainwash your children but to let them know they are loved. No secret message just someone cared enough to share a gift with them.
Midnitesun
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43 posted 11-17-2006 06:21 AM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Personally? I think the real Jesus would be offended by such dolls. MHO
hush
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44 posted 11-17-2006 08:37 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Karen... OMG, the Jesus/Darwin transformer is the answer to all these problems!!! LMAO!!

Okay, just a few points here:

1. I would not take my child to church at age 6. I was terrified when I was taken to church at that age, and Mike? You cannot be serious when you write off the "burn in hell" and "other religions are inferior" messages. Every Church I have EVER been to has endorsed one or the other message...

Actually, I was just at church the other day, ALL BY MYSELF (through an unlikely series of events) and... man... it still scares me.

2. I think we should get rid of "in god we trust" on money. It makes a liar out of me every time I buy something.

3. "One clip shows a 4 or 5 year  old muslim girl talk about hating Jews because they kill and eat people."

Anyone else seen "Borat?"

4. "Children are not prejudicial. They have to grow up and get smart to reach that state of mind."

Dude, you cannot be serious. How grown up do you mean? Read any Countee Cullen lately?

"Now I was eight and very small,
And he was no whit bigger,
And so I smiled, but he poked out
His tongue, and called me, '.....'"

That notwithstanding (you might argue it was in a different time, etc., etc.), ever heard kids pick on other kids for being fat, too stupid, too smart, too black/white/asian/whatever? I mean... are you out of touch with the fact that kids are really mean to each other for no good reason?

5. "I would not worry about the brainwashing among the civilized religions. That gets left to the radical ones."

Can you provide a list of "civilized" vs. "radical" religions? Which ones do we need to worry about? I'm curious.

6. I think the idea of political talking dolls is far scarier and more offensive than religious ones...

heh... transformers....
Balladeer
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45 posted 11-17-2006 01:21 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Hush...believe me, I CAN be serious. I went to church at a very  early age beginning with the Catholic church, where I was baptized and then to an Evangelical church when we moved to the country and, in neither religion, did I ever hear about non-religious people burning in Hell or bashing of other religions. By the way, I was not going to church by choice. It was my parents' decision so I did not and have not turned into a religious zealot. I think I just mentioned I do not even consider myself religious so I am not defending churches because I am a believer. If I say I didn't see it, it's because I didn't see it. I still have friendly arguments with my girlfriend, who is a devout Christian, that my complaint with Christians is that they claim one cannot enter Heaven without being one of them....sort of like a country club where your dues are fully believing in their fellow. Still, I have never heard a Christian say that non-believers of Christianity will burn in hell....they simply can't pass the pearly gates. If being in church by yourself causes you to be scared for days, I'd say you have some issues. Did you expect the statues to come to life and eat you?  

Anyone else seen "Borat?"

You are going to make comparisons of actuall footage of children stating such things with a popular movie that's playing????? It's MY turn for the "You can't be serious" line.

So tell me where that little 8 year old white boy learned that word, hush.  Yes, schoolchildren can certainly be mean but they learned it growing up. They weren't born with that mentality.

The difference between civilized and radical religions? I really have to show the distinction? Well, let's say those that behead others in the name of their God, those that claim anyone who does not hold their beliefs must be murdered, those who scream out "God is great!" while massacreing innocents could be considered radical for a start, unless you want to brand those actions as those of civilized people. True, one can claim that radical view does not portray a true picture of their religion, but when millions applaud it while those claiming it is a false portrayal of their religion remain silent, then the difference is lost. Christianity, during the crusades, wasa radical religion. Which ones do you need to worry about? How about the ones with the knife or sword in their hands aimed at your head? Of course, if the simple act of being in church alone scares you for days, then i would say "All of them" would be the right answer for you.  
serenity blaze
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46 posted 11-17-2006 02:57 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

First of all, serenity loves hush.

It's great to see you here again. You are so sane and sensible that you frighten ME.



(ssssssssh, Mike, don't pout--I love YOU too.)

Susan? I have a friend who loves to talk Rapture and Tribulation and such, but I had to enact a rule that he can't do so in my home. He really WAS frightening my kids. So *hugs*. I love YOU too.

That said, I was wondering if anyone found out if there were particular guidelines or instructions for handing out these dolls?

First of all, I know many Christians who are offended by this idea. Some consider it idolatry, irreverent, and yep, sacriligious.

Second, if you looked at the pictures, these dolls are notably caucasion in appearance. I dunno if anybody checked out demographics of welfare states (where I would presume and hope that Toys for Tots would be most active) but I know that around here? The majority of the families likely to utilize Toys for Tots would be minorities, and probably um, NOT caucasion.

Would that be on the checklist for consideration?

Frankly I am quite surprised that they haven't offered a choice of dolls with darker skin--if only to squeeze out the extra dollars.

What we have here is a company who introduced a product in 2005, and they are managing to garner some renewed interest and free advertising by donating stock that they already knew was controversial.

and *offtopic* for inot2be:

Lovie? My husband has a Bill Clinton doll. Old Bill doesn't talk, he just hangs there on the noose we fashioned for him. *shrug* (We figgered he was intent on hanging himself so we just helped him along.) My husband is a collector, and he tried to get Monica Lewinsky to sign this thing at one of her book signings. You should have seen the security strong arm him out of line! They took away the cigars he had intended to get autographed too. My husband was so diappointed--and confused too. He had no idea why Ms. Lewinsky would be offended. So you see, Bettie wasn't just bad mouthing her son. We have to watch him like a little bitty kid. I did tell him that if he bought one of those Jesus dolls, chances were he would not be able to get it autographed. <--wishes she was kidding.

I hope this makes sense.

sigh. I'm running on de-caf today.
Christopher
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47 posted 11-17-2006 04:27 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

quote:
Still, I have never heard a Christian say that non-believers of Christianity will burn in hell....they simply can't pass the pearly gates.
Isn't the basic idea that if you're not "saved," don't ask Christ for forgiveness for your sins, you go to Hell? That's what I've always understood.

Balladeer
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48 posted 11-17-2006 07:17 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Hey, don't ask me, Chris! I'm not that up on those things. I heard that there are levels of Hell, seven I think, and one's sins or crimes determine what level his eternal lost soul will reside in. My comment was that I have never heard a preacher preaching that not believing in Jesus will haveone burning in Hell. It may be a given to Christianity that non-heaven residents will have Hell as their only  alternative but the comments here paint  a picture of a preacher standing on the pulpit threatening non-believers with raging fires devouring them daily for eternity. If that's the case I fell asleep during that part of the sermon....
hush
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49 posted 11-18-2006 08:50 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Agreeing with Chris here... I have personally been told (several times) that since I am not baptized, I will go to hell, and the only way to prevent going to hell was to get baptized.

Now, I was a pragmatic child (and I think I grew up to be a pretty pragmatic adult). To me, all this business with pearly gates and Jesus' resurrection and God was hard to swallow. To be told, on top of that, that I can avoid the flames of hell by getting some water dripped on my head? Very puzzling.

But you're right, I do have issues.

I am serious though... if you have seen "Borat," you'll realize why I bring it up in conjunction with ingrained anti-semitism. And if you've actually thought about "Borat," you might actually see what an incendiary social commentary it is. It is very relevant to this conversation. It's like a footnote to my point, actually.

Mike:

"Children are not prejudicial. They have to grow up and get smart to reach that state of mind."

"So tell me where that little 8 year old white boy learned that word, hush.  Yes, schoolchildren can certainly be mean but they learned it growing up. They weren't born with that mentality."

So and 8-year-old has "grown up and gotten smart?" I'd argue then as soon as a child utters its first 'mama' it has already grown up and gotten smart, listening to its parents' cultural viewpoints and criticisms, which will forever be ingrained in its worldview.

I was not raised in any sort of overtly racist way, but I was raised in a white neighborhood and I went to a school with mostly white kids (you know, we had a "token" black kid), and so when I was exposed to more cultural and ethnic diversity in my teen years, while I wasn't scathing or necessarily prejudiced, I was acutely aware of certain differences and apprehensive at times to bridge that gap. And I'd be lying, even though I work in an inner city hospital and am exposed (via patients and medical staff) to a huge variety of ethnicity and culture, if I said I didn't still take note and mentally catalogue race and culture ("the male nurse, the Indian doctor, the black patient"). Part of my personal milleu when I was growing up... a sort of homogenization that makes me notice the different (from myself).

Karen... believe it or not, I've been around, a-readin... and I think of you more than you might imagine.

(Psst... Mike... it's okay, you can call me Amy )
 
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