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Passions in Poetry

A Touch of Class

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Mistletoe Angel
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50 posted 11-12-2006 12:31 AM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

All I can say about the 2000 election debate is, we'll just have to wait and see if Thomas Alvin Cooper commits a felony on January 30th or not!  

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
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51 posted 11-12-2006 12:31 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LOLOL!! Your mind is a wonderful thing to watch at work, Iliana. The paths it can take are amazing.

No, we only referred to the irony of passing out cigarettes - you know, those round things that spread cancer, enmhazema, the things that the government warns against, that the Surgeon General says don't do, that millions are spent to warn Americans against...those things that bars, restaurants and office buildings don't allow. It seems a little ironic that THAT is what politicians would pass out to entice people to vote.

Nothing to do with plantations owners or buying the Black vote...sorry to disappoint.
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52 posted 11-12-2006 12:35 AM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

I think their point was that the Republicans gave out what amounts to office equipment, which is hardly addictive to most people. Not all, mind ya, as it do take all sorts.  Now, the Dems giving out cigarettes, which are rather addictive, which just doesn't quite measure up to office supplies.  Not to mention the Dems were all over that massive multi-state class action lawsuit against Big Tobacco in the late 90's, which was one of the primary reasons Gore lost his home state, tobacco being one of their primary industries, and the Gore family being heavily into tobacco production.
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53 posted 11-12-2006 12:40 AM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Ali - that's one reason why I have a hard time believing the newspaper reports of that happening were more than campaign and post-campaign (election dispute) propoganda.  
JesusChristPose
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54 posted 11-12-2006 12:40 AM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

~ I mean, come on people, if a presidential candidate cannot even win his/her home state, then he/she doesn't deserve to win the election at all. Think about it.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

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55 posted 11-12-2006 12:48 AM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Noah, that's too funny!
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56 posted 11-12-2006 12:53 AM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

JCP, what a comment -- "deserve."  It has nothing to do with deserving -- it has to do with EARNING and validity of the vote.  I said Gore was not my candidate of choice at the time.  My point is that with the irregularities in voting equipment which I've proven to you exist, challenging a close election is not an unclassy thing to do.  Especially, when the votes were at one time only about 400 apart.  I'd agree with you guys a little more if you had mentioned what appeared to be Gore's temper tantrums post-election, but you haven't mentioned those.  He seemed hot-tempered to me.  But knowing what I know now, I have to wonder if it wasn't justified.  
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57 posted 11-12-2006 12:59 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, let's face it. Gore's tantrums paled next to Kerry's....no contest.

I guess all of those irregularities in the voting equipment got fixed. This was the perfect election...no irregularities, no problems with ballots, no one denied the right to vote, absolutely nothing went wrong at all. What could have made such a huge difference for the first time in 6 years? Oh, yes....the Democrats won! Seems like those irregularities only come around when they lose, which recent history points out vividly.
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58 posted 11-12-2006 01:00 AM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Check you email, Mike.  
Local Rebel
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59 posted 11-12-2006 01:10 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Technicality, Reb? Isn't that just a politically loaded word for law of the land?

The election was disputed, the dispute was legally settled, and I'm sorry but the settlement isn't negotiable or open to interpretation. The state of Florida did NOT elect Al Gore, Reb, because the highest court in the land said it didn't. Is that a technicality? That's the law.



It's absolutely politically loaded Ron, and that's the point.     It's one of those technicalities Mike is always complaining about, like, juries and Miranda.  

In reading the arguments from Bush and Gore camps in Bush v. Gore the thing I find is that I agree with BOTH arguments -- the individual county recounts were a violation of equal protection AND every state and county in the United States SHOULD be ordered by the court to adopt the same standards.

However, even though the decision of the court is final, which Gore (and I) respected, it is most certainly open to interpretation because the court, in an unprecedented move, specifically ordered that this case was NOT to be used as precedent because of how wierd the situation was -- it all came down to a matter of the clock really.  (not to mention a 5/4 split that followed party lines on the court).

But, the decision is not the point here at all -- I think we were talking about class?
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60 posted 11-12-2006 01:14 AM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

quote:

As of 3 p.m., the Election Protection coalition, which includes the Lawyers' Committee, People for the American Way, and the NAACP, had received 12,300 calls, most of which were informational but many that reported voting troubles including closed polling stations, malfunctioning machines, etc. Even Rep. Jean Schmidt, an Ohio Republican, had difficulty in getting her ballot read by an automatic scanner.

Most calls, by state, since 6 a.m.:

Ohio

Georgia

Florida

Pennsylvania

California

North Carolina

In addition, the coalition is now considering lawsuits in Pennsylvania, Florida, Utah, and Georgia, according to a People for the American Way spokesman. A lawsuit was filed in Maryland yesterday regarding absentee ballots but was denied by a judge.

Voting Irregularities
Local Rebel
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61 posted 11-12-2006 01:28 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

The Florida election has been closely scrutinized since the election, and several irregularities are thought to have favored Bush. These included the Palm Beach "butterfly ballot", which produced an unexpectedly large number of votes for third-party candidate Patrick Buchanan, and a purge of some 50,000 alleged felons from the Florida voting rolls that included many voters who were eligible to vote under Florida law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election%2C_2000



When election results don't match polling data what you do Mike is get somebody with the calling capacity (ie your much ballyhooed New York PR firm -- do you keep complaining that it's from New York for a reason ) to survey people who actually voted and find out who they voted for or thought they voted for.  It's really that simple Mike.

It's completely in character though for you to claim that your opposition's complaints aren't valid and that yours would be.  Why are Democrats constitutional rights different from yours?
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62 posted 11-12-2006 02:13 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Ms. McKINNEY. Mr. Speaker, I mentioned awhile ago a fact of what happened in the elections in Florida, which I would like to take an opportunity to revisit, and I am glad that the gentlewoman from Florida (Ms. BROWN) has agreed to stay here so that she can respond to this information.

   An enterprising journalist by the name of Gregory Palast who operates out of London and works with BBC-TV has provided some very interesting information to me. I have got a list here, and the list is about those people who were put on the voter file that said that they could not vote because they were convicted felons. I have got the list here.

   For instance, number 354 on the list is Johnny Jackson, Jr., who is a black male from Texas, and then, unfortunately, John Fitzgerald Jackson. They said that those two people were the same people, so John Fitzgerald Jackson in Florida was denied the right to vote because a list from Texas that had the name of Johnny Jackson, Jr., on it, said that Johnny Jackson, Jr., was not eligible to vote.

   I have got on this list, for example, Thomas Alvin Cooper, who is a white male from Ohio. Thomas Cooper is a pretty common name. There is more than one Thomas Cooper, I am sure, in all of the people in Florida. But Thomas Cooper was denied the right to vote in Florida, and Thomas Cooper in Florida, who was denied the right to vote, was a black man.

   I have got here Michael Rodriguez from New Jersey, and I am sure Michael Rodriguez is a common name. But in Florida, Michael Rodriguez was denied the right to vote. In New Jersey it was Michael A. Rodriguez.

   What this list shows is that there were about 2,800 people who were not allowed the right to vote because the State of Florida said that they were convicted felons in other states, and, therefore, they could not vote in Florida.

   Mr. Speaker, 57,700 people, innocent people, I might add, were targeted for removal. Ninety percent of the people on the list that was purged so that these people could not vote in Florida, 90 percent of the names were wrong. At least 54 percent were black. 80 percent of those who finally were purged were black, and 93 percent of the people who were targeted to be purged vote Democratic.

   Ms. BROWN of Florida. If the gentlewoman would yield for one minute, let me give you the rest of the story. Florida used $4 million of taxpayer money that they gave to a firm, it was not bid out, to a firm from Texas. Katherine Harris' office did that to the people of Florida, and they came up and purged people. There was no procedure, none whatsoever.

   In fact, when I went to the poll on election day, I went downtown and there was some young black guys there saying they are not letting them vote because they said they were felons, and they had never been arrested.

   Ms. MCKINNEY. It was a procedure, all right, but the procedure was that if you were black, then you had your name on this list and you were denied the right to vote.

   Ms. BROWN of Florida. There is no question. But I am going back to how it came about. There was a bid, a non-solicited bid, where a contract was given to a firm, and all this is in the record, and the firm told the State of Florida that this system that you are using will identify people that are not convicted felons. The State of Florida says, oh, that is okay. That is okay.

   Ms. MCKINNEY. That is exactly what happened. The name of the firm was Database Technologies, which was later absorbed by ChoicePoint, which has its headquarters right outside of

Atlanta. The gentlewoman is absolutely right, that they told Katherine Harris, for whom a Congressional District I understand is being specially carved, that the information we are going to give you, according to your specifications, is wrong. We want you to know that the information that we are going to give you, the information that you have requested, is wrong. Do you want us to give you wrong information? And Katherine Harris and company, said yes, we want the wrong information.


http://rs9.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?r107:H05DE1-0083:
iliana
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63 posted 11-12-2006 02:40 AM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Reb, I believe that about 49% of this country is in a deep state of denial.  It's just too hideous to think that these things go on.  Fortunately, 51% of the country is waking up.  
Ron
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64 posted 11-12-2006 07:44 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
This was the perfect election...no irregularities, no problems with ballots, no one denied the right to vote, absolutely nothing went wrong at all. What could have made such a huge difference for the first time in 6 years? Oh, yes....the Democrats won!  Seems like those irregularities only come around when they lose, which recent history points out vividly.

Mike, one could also conclude, from exactly the same premises, that only the Republicans cheat? Such a conclusion would very nicely explain the events you've described, after all.


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65 posted 11-12-2006 09:14 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

your much ballyhooed New York PR firm -- do you keep complaining that it's from New York for a reason

Interesting comment. I went back and checked and can find that I only mentioned it once and then as an informational fact....a PR firm from New York City.  Is that considered "much ballyhoo" or "keeping complaining that it's from New York"?

It's also completely in character for you to do something like that to invent and shift focus....doesn't work this time but keep trying

Mike, one could also conclude, from exactly the same premises, that only the Republicans cheat?

Yes, I guess that would be true, Ron.....if they were found to be cheating. Otherwise it becomes the only ones being accused of cheating.  I've seen nowhere throughout these sterling examples where that came to pass. In the words of someone whose name I can't recall....."Sayin' it don't make it so"


Iliana, there were some interesting parts of the link you offered (do YOU read them, I wonder?)  There were citings of voting irregularities, for sure. Unfortunately, the article did not specify which side they came from. Many of them were shocking!  For example....
Cincinnati: A police cruiser was parked about 30 feet from the entrance to bldg. at this precinct. Two officers were in the car, motor running, just watching the entrance to the polling place. Didn't seem to be on a call; were there for a while; no flashing lights.

one polling place opened late because of an overnight break in.

Franklin: Voter instructed to use provisional ballot because poll worker thought, incorrectly, that voter had requested absentee ballot.

Holmes: Student voter was given conflicting information regarding whether she could vote using her home address when her driver's license indicated her student address.

Delaware: Voter tried to vote with driver's license with old address, a letter from the DMV indicating her new address, and an electric bill with hew new address. She was allowed to vote but nervous because poll workers recorded the last four digits of her license number.

Boulder: Woman lives in Latino neighborhood and saw "weirdo" man walking around the neighborhood wearing a mask with an "X" on it and telling individuals not to vote


49% of the  country is in denial? I DENY that!! .....but it's interresting that you know what 49%are thinking. I applaud your powers
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66 posted 11-12-2006 09:37 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Perhaps, Iliana, you are basing your conclusions on polls, instead of divine inspiration, although I cannot find that 49% poll.  I did find  an interesting Newsweek poll  this morning, though..

While a bare majority of 51 percent called the Democrats' victory "a good thing," even more said they were concerned about some of the actions a Democratic Congress might take, including 78 percent who were somewhat or very concerned that it would seek too hasty a withdrawal of troops from Iraq.

Another 69 percent said they were concerned that the new Congress would keep the administration "from doing what is necessary to combat terrorism," and two-thirds said they were concerned it would spend too much time investigating the administration and Republican scandals.


I'd call that  pretty accurate. Guess part of that 49% living in denial are not really the dummies you portray.

"Too much time investigating scandals.."  As I say, a matter of class.

Ron
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67 posted 11-12-2006 10:31 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Yes, I guess that would be true, Ron.....if they were found to be cheating. Otherwise it becomes the only ones being accused of cheating. I've seen nowhere throughout these sterling examples where that came to pass.

Neither have I, Mike, though I do find Local Rebel's figures on the infamous list of felons turned away from the polls more than a little troubling. Especially this part:

"Mr. Speaker, 57,700 people, innocent people, I might add, were targeted for removal. Ninety percent of the people on the list that was purged so that these people could not vote in Florida, 90 percent of the names were wrong. At least 54 percent were black. 80 percent of those who finally were purged were black, and 93 percent of the people who were targeted to be purged vote Democratic."

If that is true, or even just largely true, I think it should trouble you, too. While it's still just circumstantial evidence of foul play, it's pretty darn convincing circumstantial evidence.

Personally, I believe there are honest and less-than-honest men residing on both sides of the aisle. But I also believe that tendencies, which are surely evident in both parties, usually become realities as a reflection of those in charge. It's not just do-do that rolls downhill, after all, but also attitudes and organizational cultures. It has become abundantly clear to most people that President Bush is perfectly willing to lie to the American people when he's convinced it's for their own good. Do you think it at all likely that Bush believes electing Democrats is for their own good? I don't think it's a giant leap, by any means, to imagine President Bush rigging an election for what he honestly believes is the greater good. And those following his leadership surely know that, too.

When someone believes the end justifies the means, it's very difficult to predict the boundaries they will choose to honor.


iliana
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68 posted 11-12-2006 03:09 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Mike, let's get one thing straight.  I did not call 49% "dummies."  What I said was that they were "in denial" and I'm sticking by that.  I thought it was evident what I meant by 49% -- meaning the split in the Senate.  That's a fairly accurate reflection of the vote, I'd say.  You've been studying out of the Karl Rove playbook, me thinks.  
Mistletoe Angel
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69 posted 11-12-2006 04:52 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

I just wanted to chime in here again and also say I respect Conrad Burns, too, for his class following a close election in Montana as well.

Normally I couldn't care less who gets elected to the Senate, as it seems only the richer of Americans can run steady campaigns these days. But there's one senator who I was delighted to see get elected Tuesday, and that was Jon Tester in Montana.



Ever so often, we get senators that sprout from elite establishments and the same, familiar big cities, and I believe that's exactly why the Democrats have had difficulty electing presidents in the past twenty-five years; they rely on wealthy, elitist-minded individuals who have trouble speaking unequivocally, like Michael Dukakis, Walter Mondale and John Kerry (Democrats, look to the likes of Barack Obama and Mark Warner for clues on how to win a future presidency.)

But this time around, it seems the Democrats are finally getting an idea of what sort of candidates will draw the greater voting blocs in; by running what's being described now often as "big-tent Democrats" who don't try to emulate the Dukakis and Kerry doctrines, and rather appear like they are not only in tune with middle-American values; they personify and breathe them, and I think that's really what helped the Democrats rise above the deep odds in taking the Senate majority as well Tuesday.

Jon Tester is like that. Besides the flat-top haircut, LOL, here we have a Democrat who was born and raised in Big Sandy, a town of only about 700 in population, with little to show off except the Big Bud 16V-747, a custom-made tractor that is now in the Guinness Book of World Records as the largest tractor on Earth. Moreover, Big Sandy is a community that has been struggling to keep up with the winds of change like many rural communities. Two of their three banks have closed down, their movie theater has called it curtains, and their school is so quiet now that their football team plays an eight-man version of the game.

Tester understands hometown pride and the value of rural community, and has lived on the family farm virtually his whole life up until now, which has been passed on down from his grandparents to him, who now does organic farming there and harvests lentils and wheat. He has also served as a local butcher (he lost three fingers on his left hand in a meat grinder accident growing up), a conservation board member, and a high school basketball referee and music teacher at Big Sandy Elementary School.

Obviously, it's certainly not the first time a small-town boy has been elected to the Senate, of course. But personally I think it's inspiring that in this day in age especially, 1/100 of our Senate is represented by a native from a small-town of 700, and I'm optimistic this could inspire increasing attention to the importance of preserving these valuable farm towns and communities and such.

Tester strikes me as a unique candidate that I think will really stand out in the next Senate. I don't know if I can say the same thing for the other elected Democratic senators or not. Claire McCaskill impresses me on first impressions in that she's very articulate and seems to understand the spirit and legacy of Harry Truman in her native Show-Me State, and I think Webb could help place a more moderate, even conservative face on the party, but all in all I don't feel the other candidates like I feel Jon Tester.

I still am far more than hesitant of evolving from a registered Independent to a registered Democrat, as I still feel the leadership of the Democratic Party is undulated with those elitist influences and on a fundamental level are equally as responsible for the devolving of our democratic process as the GOP. But I believe, first with the electing of Barack Obama in 2004, and now with the electing of Jon Tester this year, I believe the party is gradually moving in the right direction.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
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70 posted 11-12-2006 07:10 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

It has become abundantly clear to most people that President Bush is perfectly willing to lie to the American people when he's convinced it's for their own good.


I don't think it's a giant leap, by any means, to imagine President Bush rigging an election for what he honestly believes is the greater good. And those following his leadership surely know that, too.

Ron, I would expect such sweeping comment like that from some members who post here but coming from you surprises me. Ok, I'll play. How can you claim it is abuntantly clear?  What facts support that? How can you speak for most people?   Do you  rely on some report that states most people are willing to brand Bush a liar? Which one? How do you claim that those following his leadership know that he would rig an election? Who? What makes you sure that they surely know that? You make these statements as fact. Validate them.  As I say....from you, I am surprised.

As far as the quote you began with, that does cause thought and I'm going to see what information on it I can gather from more than just one source.
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71 posted 11-12-2006 08:10 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Central_Voter_File#2000_Florida_Election_Controversy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChoicePoint

there's a start
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72 posted 11-12-2006 10:45 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

~ Wow. How this thread took off in so many directions.

~ The bottom line is the "touch of class" shown by the good senator from Virginia. A man, who could of started all kinds of "conspiracy crap"  
but didn't. A man who could of taken all of the  information about the irregularities of the voting machines, but didn't. A man who could automatically called for a re-vote, but didn't. Maybe he couldn't use the "minority card" and that is why he didn't. However, the  fact remains...

He could of, but didn't. Out of class.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

JesusChristPose
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73 posted 11-12-2006 10:55 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"there's a start"

~ It comes from this specific source, so it MUST be true. LOL.  

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Ron
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74 posted 11-12-2006 11:44 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
How can you claim it (President Bush lying) is abuntantly clear? What facts support that?

Uh, you want to talk about WMD again, Mike?  

No? Okay, let's stick to more recent history. Like just a few days ago.

President Bush November 8, 2006: "No, you and Hunt and Keil came in the Oval Office and you asked - Hunt asked me the question one week before the campaign, and basically it was: You going to do something about Rumsfeld and the vice president? And my answer was, you know, they're going to stay on.

"And the reason why is I didn't want to inject a major decision about this war in the final days of a campaign.

"And so the only way to answer that question and to get you onto another question was to give you that answer."

The President went on to explain why he thought it was in the best interest of the country to lie to the press, and later concluded by saying, "And it was the right decision to make, by the way." That's the scary part, in my opinion. It wasn't just necessary, which in this instance I think is very questionable, but it was right.

quote:
How can you speak for most people? Do you  rely on some report that states most people are willing to brand Bush a liar?

Perhaps I'm just being na´ve, Mike. I don't take a poll before saying most people know the sun came up this morning, if only because I think the sun rising is pretty self-evident. I really can't see anyone honestly thinking Bush has never deliberately lied to the American people to justify what he thought was necessary. That, too, it seems to me, is self-evident.

quote:
How do you claim that those following his leadership know that he would rig an election? Who? What makes you sure that they surely know that? You make these statements as fact.

No, I make the statements as observations, and perhaps as an explanation for why so many found themselves wrongly labeled as felons and were subsequently prevented from voting. If Reb's figures are correct, it's exceedingly difficult not to suspect foul play. My point was that I don't think we should be surprised because the culture that promotes the ends justifying the means starts at the top.
 
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