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Political Attack Ads & eventually Michael J Fox

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Mistletoe Angel
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25 posted 10-30-2006 06:52 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

No, Michael, it isn't a ridiculous position for him to take, and I sympathize very much with Bush's concern on this issue.

Although I believe in both stem cell research studies, I too hope that someday, as science continues to improve the quality of medicine and technology and such, that we won't even have to destroy the human embryo to conduct the research and seek these many potential cures, just as I hope that someday we will no longer have to resort to any sort of abortion once science and such finds a way in ensuring a better alternative.

I'm sure this is something we all desire to see within our lifetimes; where we can all comfortably ensure that help is on the way for everyone without also having to compromise any form of life, and that is understandably the national debate as it is; whether it is more moral or immoral to make some sort of sacrifice in the hope of seeking an opportunity to save others from their own inhibitions.

Though I wholeheartedly disagree with his recent veto regarding this issue, I do understand very much where Bush is coming from here, and I also highly respect that while he has his disagreements with many on the issue, he also is respectful toward their concerns.

*

By the way, I certainly hope we won't be seeing that kind of vitriolic border security ad anytime.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
Local Rebel
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26 posted 10-30-2006 07:57 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

That is not the point of my involvement in this thread, however. It's about how Michael J. Fox and his illness is being used and portrayed in  this ad in a political manuever. I know I shouldn't be surprised after Cindy Sheehan but they always seem to find a way to reach new lows. I'm waiting for the ad  which shows pictures of a California family of four  slaughtered in their home with  a caption underrneath which reads " With Bush  not getting tough enough on closing our borders, this could  be a common sight in the future!"



Is your disapproval uniform Mike?  Do you object when Fox does the same thing campaigning for Arlen Specter?

They always find a way to reach new lows?  THEY?  You mean politicians right?  Because we know that the Repbulican National Committee has admited to the 'Southern Strategy' -- race baiting southern voters after the civil rights movement to lure white Democrats into Republican ranks -- and the ad they've put up against Harold Ford is despicable.  

I don't see what's so low about a guy with a disease campaigning for someone who wants to fund activities that could possibly one day offer a cure for said disease -- but, about '
faking' it or even going off his meds -- niether is the case.  

You point to his performance on Boston Legal -- but don't recognize that on television one can make it look as if a person is blasting Cylons out of space -- they EDIT Mike -- they wait till Fox hits a pocket where he's moderately in control and work then.  Most of the country never even realized JFK could barely walk because of the way he was telecast and photographed.

In his bid for re-election Republican Chris Chocola of Indiana is putting his own Cindy Shehan on the air to talk about how bad and unpatriotic Democrat Joe Donelly is -- but, I imagine if it was your district you'd find a way to justify that.

The embryos that are destroyed in stem cell research are the embryos created for invitro fertilization that are destroyed anyway.  Under no circumstances are embryos being created for the purpose of research.
Ron
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27 posted 10-30-2006 09:10 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
To my knowledge Rush criticized the manner in which Fox presented the commercial, by either willingly or being talked into laying off the medication to make it as dramatic as possible. He certainly never laughed at Michael  J. for  having Parkinson's and your cosmic justice would not bejust.

No, he didn't laugh, Mike, nor do I recall anyone suggesting he did. And, of course, you seem to be forgetting that the medication possibility was only fifty percent of Limbaugh's either/or suggestion? Limbaugh essentially told Fox to stop acting like a spaz. That his comments were made through utter ignorance only reinforces the justice of perhaps acquiring a deeper understanding the hard way. No, Limbaugh doesn't deserve to be afflicted with an incurable disease like Parkinson's. Then again, neither did Fox.

If this thread is all about ugly politics, one certainly need look no further than Rush Limbaugh. Were I a little more partisan, Mike, I might wonder, as you did, whether he was duped into being a jerk? Instead, I'll content myself with wondering why any Republican would need to look for enemies when they already have friends like Rush Limbaugh?


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28 posted 10-31-2006 11:11 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, Ron, I have to tell you that Limbaugh is certainly a blowhard at times! A self-confessed one at that...but he is certainly an entertainer. An enemy of the Republican party? Hardly. There is SOME reason why he is the  number one listened to talk show in America although you may argue that most of America which listens to talk radio are idiots. Seen Air America around lately? Oh, that's right. They filed for bankruptcy last month. The were to great Left hope to unseat Limbaugh. There are actually reasons why he is popular. First,he's entertaining, as I said. Second, you hear things from him the news reports won't give you or downplays or ignores. You want the economic figures or the stock market new highs? They get little hoopla in the newspapers or biased news reports. You want to hear how it was so ridiculous for the Democrats to scream about foreign ownership of ports since the majority of ports already WERE foreign owned? He tells you. You want to hear how dumb it is to scream about wiretapping or checking phone records of suspected terrorists in an effort to go after Bush? He tells you. You want to hear how putting panties ove a prisoner's head does not equate to beheading an American soldier on videotape and transmitting it to the world? He says that, too. When he points out that Bush's tax cuts and economic philosophy was exactly the same as Kennedy's and proves it with Kennedy's own words, the Democrats hate it but the public loves it. When he says the tax cuts are good for the economy, people agree. When he ridicules Jesse Jackson, people nod their heads yes. When he shows how the democrats are trying to use the recent e-mail acandal to influence the upcoming elections and yet turn their backs on any democratic scandals, of which there have been many, people can see it.

Third, he is upbeat. He is high on America. He loves the country and projects it. That's what happened to Air America and every other democratic news medium I've heard. They only speak of negatives - what is wrong with America. They complain but offer no alternatives. They condemn and never praise and give no plan of their own. They scream out to impeach Bush, impeach Rice, kick out Rumsfeld, impeach Hastert....that's their message. They have no one who can relate to the  public. Al Frankel? From everything I've heard, even the Democrats have a hard time stomaching him.

Yep, Rush can be a real buffoon but he relates to one heck of a lot of people in this country by speaking out and saying it like it is. He's gone after Republicans quite a bit lately, also, and he has criticized Bush on many levels, from spending to the Iraq situation. He does have  a good message, though,and a message that normal, common, everyday people can relate to and one can feel upbeat about the country from listening to him. The Democrats have no such message and that's why they continue to lose.

Rush needs to be taken with a grain of salt, I know, but when one ignores the self-congratulatory praises he heaps on himself in a comical manner and one accepts the fact that he is prejudiced against the philosophy of the Democratic party, one can find interesting grains of truth in what he has to say, grains you won't find on PMSNBC, as he likes to call them.  

An enemy of the republican party? Not a chance but he is certainly a thorn in the side of the Democratic party and that's why they give him so much attention. I feel pretty certain that they WISH he were a Democrat!

[This message has been edited by Balladeer (10-31-2006 11:49 AM).]

hush
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29 posted 10-31-2006 01:28 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Uh, never quite said I wanted him to be disabled... but when I see video of him sarcastically cutting up Fox for his mannerisms and imitating them by flailing around just to show how silly he thinks Fox looks... it really irritates me. On a human level, of course I don't want to see anyone sick or disabled, and I was probably exaggerating when I said I wouldn't feel the least bit sorry... I would probably feel a little bit sorry, like, if I was there with him, but I also see sick people every day at work, so my perspective is a little flawed. Let me put it this way: when you see so much suffering, it doesn't all get through, and I do not feel sorry for everyone I take care of. It's just the nature of healthcare- you lose some of your sensitivity to human suffering. If I fawned and cried over everyone in pain, I'd have no time to take care of people. The thing is, the ones who do get through and register on my radar are not the ones who would mock others- they are usually the kind ones, the person with lung cancer who never smoked a day in her life or the gunshot victim who never hurt a fly... not that smokers deserve cancer, but the sad truth is, I don't feel quite as sorry for them. Is that right? No, but it's the truth, and I'm not going to lie and say it isn't.

As far as finding grains of truth in Limbaugh's program, I'll admit to usually only hearing the outrageous claims that filter through to mainstream media (not just his concervative audience). But he strikes me as a conservative counterpart to Micheal Moore- opportunistic of any information that supports his point or his conviction, and turing a blind eye to those that don't.
Mistletoe Angel
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30 posted 10-31-2006 01:53 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Yeah, though I'm certainly no fan of Rush Limbaugh, all in all I agree with your theories on why Limbaugh has achieved the level of popularity he has, and why he has widely influenced public discourse within the last three decades.

I would add as a fourth reason that he strikes the curiosity of people from both sides of the aisle (same with O'Reilly). I actually believe quite a bit of his weekly net audience are Democrats and those who actually staunchly disagree with him, who tune in out of curiosity to hear what inflammatory piece of rhetoric he'll conjure up next, and eyeing him like a hawk in understanding his usual on-air personality demeanor and format so the Democrats can adopt his approach as a left-wing equivalent of it, which in fact I think Ed Schultz has attempted to do, deeming himself the "Rush Limbaugh of the Left".

Just a note regarding your third point, however. Limbaugh, too, has resorted to frequent negative attitudes as well whenever Democrats were in power. In fact, immediately when Bill Clinton was elected president in 1992, Limbaugh started the "America Held Hostage" segment, which is telling in that, though I certainly sympathize with everyone sick of all the Democratic Party's corruption in Congress at the time, he never even wanted to give Clinton a chance to begin with and had a biased grudge against him from the start, simply because he shared the name of the party that was tainting Congress.

So essentially Limbaugh has been exactly during the 90's what Air America is right now; spending all one's breath seeking retribution on political opposition without declaring a vision for a positive alternative; calling to impeach Clinton, making up all kinds of conspiracy theories about the Clinton family (such as Hillary being involved in the 1993 suicide of deputy White House counsel Vincent Foster) like some Air America personalities do about the GOP being behind Pall Wellstone's death, and so-forth. Moreover, he too demonizes those he doesn't ideologically agree with, including saying, "What's good for Al Qaeda is good for the Democratic Party.", once calling abortion rights activists "feminazis", and even saying outrageous things like referring to prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib as "blowing some steam off".

*

Despite my strong opinion that Limbaugh resorts to his own brand of negativity just as much as the Jeanane Garofalos of Air America, I do think his entertaining persona and his tempering of curiosity explains his wide influence on the airwaves today, even when I think his program is about as biased as it can get.

I think it's just that same sort of appeal that explains the rising popularity of Keith Olbermann on MSNBC, who hosts "Countdown". Being a former ESPN sportscaster and anchor personality, and a great fan of sports in general, Olbermann has a very unique anchor personality, which I like to think of as the Jacques Servin or Igor Vamos of cable news, welded into the dress suit of a contemporary Edward Murrow and straightened up with the mandarin collar of a Broadway aficionado.

I think Olbermann has slowly but consistently continued to strike the curiosity of the general public in that he too touches up on harder-news stories most other media outlets won't ever cover (like going into deep detail of the recently-signed Military Commissions Act and its implications to the definition of torture and executive power, and the growing KBR-Halliburton scandals) while also balancing the serious news with a lighter news segment known as "Oddball" and airing positive stories as well including the Amish community and their forgiveness in ligh of the recent tragedy. Also, I think there's an appeal in that he treats his guests with respect, in that he never interrupts them in the middle of any question (including John Ashcroft two weeks ago) and lets them say what they want to say, unlike what personalities like O'Reilly do in interrupting individuals he doesn't agree with.

Olbermann, too, can certainly be inflammatory at times, particularly in his "Special Comments" where when something the current Administration especially troubles him in the news, like with the signing of the Military Commissions Act without habeas corpus guarantees or the sluggish response to Hurricane Katrina, he dedicates 7-10 minutes in an essay sort of format in a no-prisoners sort of anchor approach, criticizing its leadership while also documenting other historical accounts of similar negligence.

Those "Special Comments" are tough indeed, and I don't agree with his tone at times, but in the general sense the main points he makes in them are quite convincing and appear thoughtfully researched, and I think they explain how his ratings have really soared in recent months, standing out among an otherwise poorly-rated network; much of the American public believes the Bush Administration is not being fully honest with the American people on Iraq and other issues, the're not hearing what they want to hear from them, and so they curiously hear Olbermann out, regardless of how much they agree or disagree with him, because he provides some interested grains of truth that get expressed minimally in the rest of the cable news environment.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
Local Rebel
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31 posted 10-31-2006 08:30 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

This ability to believe is rather weak in some circles, above all in those with money and education. They may trust more in pure cold reason than a glowing idealistic heart. Our so-called intellectuals do not like to hear this, but it is true anyway. They know so much that in the end they do not know what to do with their wisdom. They can see the past, but not much of the present, and nothing at all of the future. Their imagination is insufficient to deal with a distant goal in a way such that one already thinks it achieved.

They were also unable to believe in the victory of National Socialism while the National Socialist movement was still fighting for power. They are as little able today to believe in the greatness of our national German future. They perceive only what they can see, but not what is happening, and what will happen.

That is why their carping criticisms generally focus on laughable trivialities. Whenever some unavoidable difficulty pops up, the kind of thing that always happens, they are immediately inclined to doubt everything and to throw the baby out with the bath water. To them difficulties are not there to be mastered, but rather to be surrendered to.

One cannot make history with such quivering people. They are only chaff in God's breath. Thankfully, they are only a thin intellectual or social upper class, particularly in the case of Germany. They are not an upper class in the sense that they govern the nation, but rather more a fact of nature like the bubbles of fat that always float on the surface of things.

Today, they seek to give good advice to National Socialist Germany from abroad. We do not have to ask them for it. They focus all their energies on the small problems that always are there, complain about the cost and believe that crises and unavoidable tensions are on the way. They are the complainers who never tire of bringing National Socialist Germany before the so-called court of world opinion. In the past they always found willing and thankful followers. Today, they only have a few backward intellectual Philistines in their camp.

The people want nothing to do with them. These Philistines are the 8/10 of one percent of the German people who have always said "no", who always say "no" now, and who will always say "no" in the future. We cannot win them over, and do not even want to. They said "no" when Austria joined the Reich; they said "no" when the Sudetenland followed. They always say "no" as a matter of principle.

One does not need to take them all that seriously. They do not like us, but they do not like themselves any better. Why should we waste words on them? They are always living in the past and believe in success only when it has already happened, but then waste no time in claiming credit for it.

The people want nothing to do with these intellectual complainers. The year 1938 was filled with great and sometimes unnerving tension. But they are delighted at the close of this year with the Führer's great historical successes.




Joseph Goebbels
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/goeb16.htm
Local Rebel
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32 posted 10-31-2006 08:45 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

There is no doubt that some people have taken pleasure in hoarding coffee. They did this in part to ensure their own supply — as if coffee were a necessity of life — but also in part to make difficulties for the National Socialist government. For example, a woman from Berlin's better circles in the Wilmersdorf district was caught with eight quarter pounds of coffee that she had bought from various shops. She explained she wanted to be sure she had enough. Well, that's one way of looking at it.

Such people are naturally only a ridiculous minority, but they are in the position to damage our people's good name. And it is always the same people. They give reluctantly to the Winter Relief drive, they abuse the National Socialist government and the National Socialist movement, oppose everything that we do, lose heart in every crisis, find the party block warden in their building an annoyance, are convinced adherents to confessional movements, love political jokesters, and get their news from foreign radio stations or newspapers.

Naturally they do not think it beneath their dignity to enjoy the benefits of the National Socialist state. Their thanks is to cheerfully vote no in the referendum to approve Austria's joining the Reich. They have no idea what national discipline means. Their political behavior is disgraceful. Everything that comes from abroad is chic, everything that we do is shocking.



Joseph Goebbels
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/goeb22.htm

You see... what Limbaugh does is hardly new -- you make sure that your opposition don't love the country -- they don't even love themselves.... he had the best teacher.

What's shocking is that so many people believe that loving America is abandoning Habeus Corpus and Torturing people because a few men said so.

Yes, I'm PROUD to criticize what America does -- when what it does isn't AMERICAN!
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33 posted 10-31-2006 10:07 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Typical response but you can save your energy on the "People are for torture and abandoning the constitution" because it doesn't fly and people - honest, caring and even moral people- are not going to don the yoke of guilt you so freely try to adorn them with. Habeus corpus is alive and well, undamaged by the logical and prudent steps taken by Bush to uncover terrorist communications, and no Americans are screaming to have terrorists drawn and quartered.

Yes, I'm PROUD to criticize what America does...

America cannot be criticized except by people who despise what America basically stands for. America is a country made up of individuals. It's the individuals that can be criticized. That's why Limbaugh criticized Clinton and that's why Democrats criticize Bush. If you  want to claim that they all take a page out of the Goebbels playbook, go ahead. I've seen you stretch farther...
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34 posted 10-31-2006 10:14 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

But once again Mike -- you're wrong.

There is a collective 'America does' to be criticized -- the official acts that are carried out in the name of the people.  

I can criticize you.  I can criticize Bush.  I can criticize the government -- which, is America.

Mike -- you're a propagandist too.

Me... I just look biased -- because the facts are biased.
Local Rebel
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35 posted 10-31-2006 10:27 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I'm not going to let your 'honest, caring, and moral' people barb pass either Mike.

Propaganda can't exist without an audience that's ready to consume it.  People take pleasure in hearing their own biases reinforced and put into pretty words.

Just like this instance;

quote:

It was called "the southern strategy," started under Richard M. Nixon in 1968, and described Republican efforts to use race as a wedge issue -- on matters such as desegregation and busing -- to appeal to white southern voters.

Ken Mehlman, the Republican National Committee chairman, this morning will tell the NAACP national convention in Milwaukee that it was "wrong."

"By the '70s and into the '80s and '90s, the Democratic Party solidified its gains in the African American community, and we Republicans did not effectively reach out," Mehlman says in his prepared text. "Some Republicans gave up on winning the African American vote, looking the other way or trying to benefit politically from racial polarization. I am here today as the Republican chairman to tell you we were wrong."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/13/AR2005071302342.html  




If people don't have an inherent racist element to thier personality -- this strategy wouldn't work on them.  Are they moral?  Are they decent hardworking people?  Sure, for the most part -- but, that fella that most of these people claim as their personal savior says -- none of them are 'good'.

We all have our areas don't we Mike?

And, it is specifically because I happen to LOVE what America is supposed to stand for --that I criticize what America does when it falls short.
iliana
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36 posted 10-31-2006 10:32 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

"Habeus corpus is alive and well, undamaged by the logical and prudent steps taken by Bush to uncover terrorist communications, and no Americans are screaming to have terrorists drawn and quartered. "

Mike, I see you have still not REALLY read the war crimes act.  

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37 posted 10-31-2006 11:29 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ok, I'll confess that I haven't the foggiest what your 50 year old example is supposed to represent unless you are trying to say that people support Bush's actions because, deep down, they are all actually people who support torture and destroying the constitution. If that is the case, you are missing (or ignoring) the whole point. People do not believe that Bush's actions on moving quickly to set up communications on suspected terrorists was either wrong or detrimental to the constitution. Actually the only people who do seem to be Democrats using it as a another attack on the administration. Has Bush  been brought up on charges for it? Censured for it? Does anyone even discuss it any more? No, it was just the complaint du jour that didn't fly and went away. People do not either believe that sleep deprivation or loud music or even threats used against a terrorist to extract information that could save American lives is torturous. If you want to claim that they do because they have a streak inside them which condones torture and they support whoever reinforces that feeling, you are so far off-base that you're in a different ballpark. They are simply smart enough to recognize the tactics and don't buy them.

I can criticize the government -- which, is America.

I know a lot of people who would disagree with that statement. I may be one

True story that I'll try not to bore you with. In 1974, while living in Venezuela, I came back to the states to bowl in the PBA Masters held in Indianapolis. An old Venezuelan married couple (good  friends of mine)accompanied me. After the tournament I decided to drive to St. Louis, my home town, to get some things from my parents house to take back with me. The Venezuelan couple came along. They were in complete awe staring at the farmlands and towns we passed....how neat everything looked. My town had 110 people. We stopped at the tavern for a burger and a beer. The couple were so amazed at the friendliness displayed. They told me they had no idea what America looked like, having only had seen Miami and New York and never the midwest. I smiled and told them to forget Miami and New York...THIS was America.

Actually I believe that. America is it's people. The government? Sure, we elect them they are supposed to be representative of what we believe in but some of them are elected with less than half of the popular vote. We are given two choices and told to pick the lesser of two evils....and does it ever change? Every election year for the past half-century we hear the same promises and the same rhetoric that we know we will hear four years later. Are these people America? True, they can dictate what affects the lives of every citizen...but are they really America? We tolerate them because our system requires their presence and we hope that they won't get us into too much trouble but....America? My small little town and the people in it gets my vote for that title.
JesusChristPose
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38 posted 10-31-2006 11:32 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Hey, my post got deleted. So with that, I'll just say, Mike I might not agree with all that you say, but I think you are a great debator. Hopefully, saying that is not enough to get my words rejected.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

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39 posted 10-31-2006 11:39 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Yes, I just noticed  that, too, JCP. Thanks for your kind words
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40 posted 11-01-2006 12:08 AM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Mike, I said the war crimes act, when indeed, I should have said the act which repeals parts of the war crimes act and that is the military commissions act of 2006 signed into law just last week, I believe.  There are many articles on the net about how that affects the right to habeas corpus and, obviously, you have not studied the act.  I spent one night reading it and my stomach rolled inside me.  I believe this is what Local Rebel is referring to in his comparison about how one political movement accomplished what it did through propaganda, misinformation and control.  Read this:  
Habeas Corpus Suspended  Maybe you will take the words of people who are trained to interpret the constitution and law as truth.  Then again, maybe you won't.  
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41 posted 11-01-2006 12:15 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Your stomach rolled  inside you reading the act that repeals parts of the war crimes act???? That's intense1
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42 posted 11-01-2006 12:20 AM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

No, Mike, while reading the military commissions act of 2006, not the war crimes act of 1996.  As far as I know, the 1996 act still acknowledged our international treaties (the Geneva Convention, specifically).  Still not going to read it, are you?

PS to Reb:  I'd like to see if there are any signing orders tacked onto it.  Are you aware of any?
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43 posted 11-01-2006 12:35 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, I just read the complete article from the link you sent and my stomach hasn't turned yet...sorry. If you find something there that makes you physically sick then that's up to you. We all have our own rights to our own opinions, of course.

The internement of Japanese in the forties was certainly a blow to habeus corpus. It happened 60 years ago. Did it destroy the constitution and throw the country into chaos? Tums may help....

iliana
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44 posted 11-01-2006 02:47 AM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

I was not referring to the article turning my stomach, Mike.  I was referring to the Military Commissions Act of 2006, which I am waiting for you to read so we can have a meaningful conversation regarding whether or not habeas corpus has been suspended.  
iliana
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45 posted 11-01-2006 03:22 AM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

In case you don't have time to read the 90+ page Act, Mike, here are some relevant points which I pulled from Wikipedia for you:  

quote:

"The Act changes pre-existing law to explicitly disallow the invocation of the Geneva Conventions when executing the writ of habeas corpus or in other civil actions [Act sec. 5(a)]. This provision applies to all cases pending at the time the Act is enacted, as well as to all such future cases.

If the government chooses to bring a prosecution against the detainee, a military commission is convened for this purpose. The following rules are some of those established for trying alien unlawful enemy combatants.

‘‘(b) NOTICE TO ACCUSED.—Upon the swearing of the charges and specifications in accordance with subsection (a), the accused shall be informed of the charges against him as soon as practicable.

A civilian defense attorney may not be used unless the attorney has been determined to be eligible for access to classified information that is classified at the level Secret or higher. [10 U.S.C. sec. 949c(b)(3)(D)]
A finding of Guilty by a particular commission requires only a two-thirds majority of the members of the commission present at the time the vote is taken [10 U.S.C. sec. 949m(a)]
In General- No person may invoke the Geneva Conventions or any protocols thereto in any habeas corpus or other civil action or proceeding to which the United States, or a current or former officer, employee, member of the Armed Forces, or other agent of the United States is a party as a source of rights in any court of the United States or its States or territories. [Act sec. 5(a)]
As provided by the Constitution and by this section, the President has the authority for the United States to interpret the meaning and application of the Geneva Conventions and to promulgate higher standards and administrative regulations for violations of treaty obligations which are not grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions. [Act sec. 6(a)(3)(A)]
No person may, without his consent, be tried by a military commission under this chapter a second time for the same offense. [10 U.S.C. sec. 949h(a)]. "


Wiki also shows arguments against the Act:  

quote

"A number of legal scholars and Congressional members - including Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Arlen Specter (R-PA) - have said that the habeas provision of the Act violates a clause of the Constitution that says the right to challenge detention "shall not be suspended" except in cases of "rebellion or invasion."[18]

The Act has also been denounced by critics who assert that its wording makes possible the permanent detention and torture (as defined by the Geneva Conventions) of anyone - including American citizens - based solely on the decision of the President.[19] Indeed, the wording of section 948b[20] of the act appears to explicitly contradict the Third Geneva Convention of which the United States is currently a signatory.

In the House debate, Representative David Wu of Oregon offered this scenario:

Let us say that my wife, who is here in the gallery with us tonight, a sixth generation Oregonian, is walking by the friendly, local military base and is picked up as an unlawful enemy combatant. What is her recourse? She says, I am a U.S. citizen. That is a jurisdictional fact under this statute, and she will not have recourse to the courts? She can take it to Donald Rumsfeld, but she cannot take it across the street to an article 3 court.[21]

One has described the Act as "the legalization of the José Padilla treatment" - referring to the American citizen who was declared an unlawful enemy combatant and then imprisoned for three years before finally being charged with a lesser crime than was originally alleged.[22] A legal brief filed on Padilla's behalf alleges that during this time he was subjected to sensory deprivation, sleep deprivation, and enforced stress positions.[23]

Amnesty International said that the Act "contravenes human rights principles."[24] An editorial in The New York Times described the Act as "a tyrannical law that will be ranked with the low points in American democracy, our generation’s version of the Alien and Sedition Acts."[25]

"American Civil Liberties Union Executive Director Anthony D. Romero said, "The president can now, with the approval of Congress, indefinitely hold people without charge, take away protections against horrific abuse, put people on trial based on hearsay evidence, authorize trials that can sentence people to death based on testimony literally beaten out of witnesses, and slam shut the courthouse door for habeas petitions." [26]

The law has also been criticized for allegedly giving a retroactive, nine-year immunity to U.S. officials who authorized, ordered, or committed potential acts of abuse on detainees.[27]"

Ron
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46 posted 11-01-2006 06:28 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
People do not believe that Bush's actions on moving quickly to set up communications on suspected terrorists was either wrong or detrimental to the constitution. Actually the only people who do seem to be Democrats using it as a another attack on the administration.

I'm not a Democrat, Mike?
Balladeer
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47 posted 11-01-2006 03:48 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

My apologies...

"Democrats....and Ron"
iliana
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since 12-05-2003
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USA


48 posted 11-01-2006 04:37 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

No apology for me, Mike?  I'm not one either.  

[This message has been edited by iliana (11-01-2006 05:49 PM).]

Balladeer
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49 posted 11-01-2006 08:53 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LOL! Ok, Democrats,  Ron, Iliana and I'll even throw in Noah for good measure
 
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