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You're it!!!...so sue me

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Balladeer
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0 posted 10-20-2006 09:38 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer


WASHINGTON (AFP) - Two Massachusetts primary schools this week joined a growing list of US schools that have banned the age-old game of tag for fear that children may get hurt and their parents will sue.

Elementary schools in the states of Wyoming and Washington have also recently banned tag during recess, in fear that possible injuries could leave the schools legally liable.


My question is......if lawyers were to play hide-and-seek, would anyone look for them?
Grinch
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1 posted 10-20-2006 11:01 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


The IRS?
iliana
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2 posted 10-20-2006 11:50 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Grinch...you're too funny!  But, you're right, too.  

Michael, This is unbelievable!  No more tag?  How stupid is that?!!  The answer is, of course!  And, there are some good ones out there, too; there really are.  I don't think you should pick on the profession, Michael...lol, you are tempting fate.  *smiles*
Mistletoe Angel
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3 posted 10-21-2006 02:14 AM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

I don't think I would want to play Cooperative Musical Hoops with them, that's for sure! "This hoop ain't big enough for the two of us!" LOL!

Look, growing up at Warder Elementary School in Arvada, Colorado, from my experiences on recess, yes, I got my knees and elbows scraped on plenty of occasions, and kids can get minor injuries every once in a while. But I was cool with it, as I believe a great majority of children are, and I believe those occasional scrapes and bruises are a small price to pay for helping children develop into resilient young adults and appreciate the finer things in life.

In fact, I ran this very story on Wednesday at KBOO Community Radio when I produced the news that day, and moreover ran a story last Tuesday regarding a new study by the American Academy of Pediatrics that has concluded that free and unstructured play is healthy for kids, and should be encouraged more in school environments as kids become increasingly overscheduled.
You can find a summary of the report at the link below:

EMaxHealth: October 9, 2006

I take this decision very seriously and believe we are limiting our children's potential through exaggerative politics such as this.

Moving at this rate, we might as well not only ban Annie Annie Over, but all baseball, kickball and dodgeball games from school grounds because the risks are too great that eight-year olds will have their baby teeth knocked out from such piddly. We might as well ban rope-climbing because a student with more sensitive skin can get ropeburn. And we might as well stop more West Virginia elementary schools from getting Dance Dance Revolution arcade machines in helping reverse the high, rising obesity rates state-wide.......all because a nine-year old girl might twist her ankle while dancing.

There is one game I am interested in playing with the lawyers, and that is Capture The Flag!

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
Ron
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4 posted 10-21-2006 03:31 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

I've got about two and half acres of lawn. I don't invite the neighborhood kids to come play at my house, though, and I honestly couldn't counsel anyone else with a good sized yard to do so either.

The problem is not with the schools, or the kids, or even with the lawyers (who, after all, can do nothing but represent their clients). The problem is with anyone who is willing to elevate easy money above personal integrity. I think blaming lawyers for a litigious society is a lot like blaming guns for violence, forgetting that in both instances, someone is back there pulling the trigger.


nakdthoughts
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5 posted 10-21-2006 07:05 AM       View Profile for nakdthoughts   Email nakdthoughts   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for nakdthoughts

Dodge Ball is out ( they don't want particular children picked on by those throwing the balls) as are any games of running during the little recess time they have. They can climb on the expensive equipment but can't jump off it.

And the playgrounds are no longer grass or dirt but are wood chipped even for those up to the 5th grade.  
But most of the time schools aren't even allowing enough time for any recess except for the last 15 minutes of the lunchtime.

And I agree with Ron...somewhere someone is behind not letting children be children anymore.
Nan
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6 posted 10-21-2006 08:26 AM       View Profile for Nan   Email Nan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nan's Home Page   View IP for Nan

..."Don't blame me, I'm from Massachusetts.."..


In my town alone - Field Day this past spring was devoid of the traditional Tug-of-War finale - an all-time favorite in every grade for as long as I can remember.  It seems that the gym teacher thought it was too risky.

Next week will also find at least one of the elememtary schools noticeably absent in the traditional Halloween parade.  The PTO, however, is welcome to host a non-sanctioned party at the school on that same evening.

...Damn Yankees...



Ringo
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7 posted 10-21-2006 12:14 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

What's next? No Little League because someone might get hit with the ball? No Pop Warner football because someone's little precious might get hurt when he has 11 kids drop him because he has the ball? No basketball leagues because there are no protective pads used by the players, and because the game is played on a hard-wood floor... varnish leaves a nasty burn, after all.

Having been a foster parent for 15 years or so, and having raised 1 1/2 kids (the other is still not fully raised) of my own, I can tell you one thing for an absolute fact... and it's one of the only absolute facts I can come up with... kids need to be kids, or they will grow up to be kids, and not responsible adults.

I got into fights as a kid: it taught me both how to win and how to lose.
I played dodgeball as a kid: it taught me how to think ahead, and predict another's actions by watching their eyes and their body movements.. and how to dust myself off and get back into the game.
I played baseball as a kid (organized and sandlot): it taught me how to work with a team of various strengths and how to dust myself off and get back in the game after taking one in the back.
I played football as a child: it taught me how to overcome obstacles that appeared to be much larger than I (I was only 5'tall, 110" as a 13 year old polaying aginst others who were up to 145.) and how to not give up when I was hurt and tired.

As everything is cyclicle, and the pendulum does swing both ways, I cannot wait for it to come back to our childhood.

You may burn my flag... only after you wrap yourself in it first.
www.myspace.com/mindlesspoet

Ron
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8 posted 10-21-2006 12:36 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
What's next? No Little League because someone might get hit with the ball? No Pop Warner football because someone's little precious might get hurt when he has 11 kids drop him because he has the ball? No basketball leagues because there are no protective pads used by the players, and because the game is played on a hard-wood floor... varnish leaves a nasty burn, after all.

Do you really think anyone at all is unduly worried about the kids getting hurt, Ringo?

It's not about the kids. It's about you and the other parents still raising the kids.
JesusChristPose
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9 posted 10-21-2006 01:02 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

~ I totally agree with what Ron had to say in both of his replies - everything else said about this matter is like leaves on a tree, but the roots are the parents and society as a whole.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."
serenity blaze
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10 posted 10-21-2006 01:11 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Am I the only one here who has to sign release forms for EVERYTHING?

Field trip? Sign here and relinquish your rights.
Football? Initial this, sign here, AND provide proof of medical insurance.

The sad thing is, my kids grew up in that sociological gap where we were so poor we couldn't afford medical insurance, but not poor enough to qualify for Medicaid--so um, they never participated in a single sport.

Might explain why they are little computer geeks though.
Balladeer
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11 posted 10-21-2006 06:25 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The problem is with anyone who is willing to elevate easy money above personal integrity.

That's exactly what I said,Ron....the lawyers. How has suing people become such easy money? Why have lawsuits skyrocketed so dramatically over the past couple of decades? You think Mom and Pop just decided to start suing by some divine inspiration? Get into an accident and see how long it takes for your phone to start ringing from lawyers speaking of lawsuits. Lawyers read  police reports,  hospital reports, any reports that produce the opportunities for lawsuits. They advertise on television..."Injured? You may be eligible to sue for damages! Call the law firm of Dewey, Screwem and Howe right now!!!" Somebody falls of a ladder from being clumsy, there'a a lawyer there to tell them they can sue the ladder company. A woman spills coffee on herself, sue the restaurant. A boy doesn't show up to take a girl to the prom, sue him for pain and suffering. It feeds on itself. Anything is sueable and there are plenty of lawyers available to make it happen. True, there are people who would not sue because they don't believe it's right but for everyone of them there are a hundred who will. There is also a percentage of the population which falls in between. Susie gets hit on the head by a rock propelled by a tire in the school parking lot. A lawyer tells the parents,"Susie is the victime here. It's only right to collect damages." The parents of the driver get sued. The school gets sued for  negligence, lack of supervision, impediments on the parking lot. Sue them all.  Why not? What is there to lose? Your son gets poked in the eye playing tag? Sue the school for allowing such a barbaric game.

One simple way to cut down on the lawsuits would be to make the suers assume the costs if the lawsuits are thrown out......but you won't see that. First of all, the Bar is completely against that. Politicians say that's not good because it would inhibit poeple from filing lawsuits. DUH!!! If the people had to  assume the costs, including the expenses of the defendants in time lost and defense bills, you would see  a dramatic drop in the frivolous lawsuits that clog the system. You would not see schools worried about playing tag.......don't hold your breath. You won't see it.

The lawyers don't have all the blame, though. They share it with a court system that allows them to do it....but that's a whole topic within itself.

Easy money, you say? You couldn't be more right. Easy for the accusers and easy for the lawyers.....all with basically no risk. Such a deal.....
iliana
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12 posted 10-21-2006 07:00 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Mike, on this topic you are wrong in so, so many ways.  

Just for starters:  You say, "One simple way to cut down on the lawsuits would be to make the suers assume the costs if the lawsuits are thrown out......but you won't see that.

WRONG.  Here in Texas (and this is a state by state issue but exists in several states), there is law that provides for exactly that.  Additionally, in many states if not all, there is law which provides for monetary sanctions on any attorney who files a frivolous lawsuit.  

Next you say, "First of all, the Bar is completely against that. Politicians say that's not good because it would inhibit poeple from filing lawsuits. DUH!!! "  

What politicians and which Bars, Mike?  

And then, I quot you, "The lawyers don't have all the blame, though. They share it with a court system that allows them to do it....but that's a whole topic within itself.

The law provides the remedy, Mike, not Judges.  And as I said, it is already in place here and in many other states thanks to Tort Reform the past 15 years.  

Not nearly as many lawsuits are being filed these days in Texas.  I know that for a fact because of the work I do.  

I never thought I would have to file a lawsuit myself.  However, in 2000, I was rearended by a 80-year-old man on drugs which indicated he should not operate a vehicle.  He hit the van behind me while we were stopped at a red light.  He was going 55 at the time in a 35 mph zone.  He did not apply his brakes at all or try to avoid hitting the van, which in turn, hit me and totaled my new car.  I was taken by ambulance to the hospital, x-rayed, told I had sprains and strains and a sprained wrist, bruises, etc.  I could not move for about 10 days, I was so stiff.  After months of follow up with the doctors to find out why I kept getting worse, one doctor referring me to another to another, it was finally determined that I had something called fibromyalgia and permanent nerve damage in my neck.  The nerve damage is the reason I can't sleep at night without my limbs going numb.  That was after three surgeries.  One of which was replacing my thumb joint.  So one of my hands is permanently disabled, making it impossible for me to do certain tasks...like button my pants or blouse or hand someone money at a drive-thru McDonalds, for instance.  I can't play guitar, flute or piano anymore at the level I could prior to the accident because of the inability to manipulate my fingers in a coordinated fashion.  I can't knead bread...one of my favorite things to do was bake.  There are so many things I can't do as a result of that freaking accident.  My medical bills were over $30,000.  And, the nerve damage is permanent and inoperable.  It will never get any better.  My point is, that accident was not my fault.  I had medical bills that were unpaid.  Initially, I tried to settle this with the insurance company of the man who was responsible.  I did not want to sue.  I asked for reimbursement for the time I missed from work and my medical expenses.  That is all I asked for though according to law, I could ask for pain and suffering.  I didn't even ask for future medical expenses, which I will have for the rest of my life.  The insurance company kept stalling me, telling me they were trying to get my medical records.  I gave them authorization for the records months before.  Finally, I got records myself and sent them to the insurance company and sent them a demand letter for the meds and lost wages.  I told them in the letter I did not want to sue them, I just wanted reimbursement.  (My car claim was settled with my own carrier as their offer was $5000 more than what the responsible party's carrier made.  Then my carrier had to sue the other carrier for reimbursement.)  The 80-year-old man's insurance carrier continued to stall me and finally, as there was only 30 days before the statute ran on the claim, I broke down and asked an attorney to help me.  The case settled two years later.  It did not go to trial.  

You tell me why these stupid insurance companies threat claims like mine the way they do and think people are so stupid that they will just lose out if the insurance companies stall them long enough to let the statute of limitations run.  This is one of the major reasons why people hire attorneys in automobile injury cases.  It is because they can't get anywhere on there own.  So, Mike......blame it on the insurance companies!!!
Ron
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13 posted 10-21-2006 08:14 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Get into an accident and see how long it takes for your phone to start ringing from lawyers speaking of lawsuits.

Walk down Fifth towards Olive in L.A., Mike, and see how long it takes for someone to offer to sell you drugs. Or just turn on your television and count how many minutes (seconds?) it take before a commercial entices you with something else we all know is patently unhealthy for you. Lawyers don't have a market on temptation, Mike.

quote:
One simple way to cut down on the lawsuits would be to make the suers assume the costs if the lawsuits are thrown out......but you won't see that. First of all, the Bar is completely against that. Politicians say that's not good because it would inhibit poeple from filing lawsuits.

The problem, Mike, is that it doesn't inhibit people equally. It certainly won't faze the rich, and even the middle class isn't going to blink over investing a few thousand dollars in hopes of winning six figure settlements (it's just like playing the lottery for them). The only ones who end up being inhibited, the ones who no longer have any legal recourse under such a system, are the poor.


Balladeer
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14 posted 10-21-2006 10:26 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The problem, Mike, is that it doesn't inhibit people equally. It certainly won't faze the rich, and even the middle class isn't going to blink over investing a few thousand dollars in hopes of winning six figure settlements (it's just like playing the lottery for them). The only ones who end up being inhibited, the ones who no longer have any legal recourse under such a system, are the poor.

Interesting, Ron. The interview I watched on television asking a senator (sorry,Iliana, it was too long ago to remember the senator's name but I certainly recall the interview) that question, the senator gave an answer exactly identical to yours. I didn't buy it then and I don't buy it now. I don't believe the middle class spends thousands playing the lottery and I don't even believe the rich don't care about throwing away thousands on a possible lost cause. I don't know for fact but I do believe that the rich do not make up a large percentage of those who sue.  As far as the poor is concerned, I think that if they are that sure they are right, they will proceed.  Those who  don't feel that way won't and lawyers who don't feel that they can win the cases will not take them.

If you are sued by someone and you are innocent, why then should you absorb the cost of hiring a lawyer to defend you and why should you absorb the time lost from work? Does that seen right to you.....basically the   accused being punished for being found innocent?

Iliana, I'll try to find out how many states have that law in effect. I'm surprised to hear Texas has it. Maybe Bush did it as governor?

...and no, Iliana, I waste no love on the insurance companies, either.
hunnie_girl
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15 posted 10-21-2006 11:46 PM       View Profile for hunnie_girl   Email hunnie_girl   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hunnie_girl

well now, what happens to the kid that was tagged last? that kid is gonna be it for the rest of his life... and at the 10 or even 20 year school reunion he will still be it and he can't do anything about it imaging having to live with that for the rest of your life... kids should be kids i think and there are a lot more dangerous activities that a kid will engage in than tag... i mean it such a dosile game... i still play tag and i'm in high school!!! haha let the kid inside never die... tag banned? haha i think that is lamer than pathetic and there lies my opinion.
hunnie*

A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war and a time for peace   ~Ecclesiastes 3:8~

iliana
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16 posted 10-22-2006 01:32 AM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Mike, Bush was not responsible for getting tort reform through.  Bush just uses it as a talking point and he has gotten some done with Federal caps, addressing class action suits, primarily.  Most of Texas tort reform happened under a Democrat although it was a movement sponsored by Republicans.  Although Perry's congress got further reform passed which basically limits the noneconomic damages to $250,000.  That would be emotional loss, pain and suffering, mental anguish...that kind of thing.  There are caps on almost all damages now.  Municipalities and Texas government entities have an even smaller cap which is economic and noneconomic, I think either $100,000 or $200,000.  Juries may award millions, but when it boils right down to it, the Plaintiff doesn't recover that much...unless the case was filed before tort reform.  The big headlines you see in lawsuits are just sensationalism....it just doesn't happen anymore.  If the case goes through appeal, the Supreme Court reverses it or cuts the damages awarded by the jury.  This is Texas law, I'm talking about.  

Let me ask you this, Mike.  Let's take a realistic scenario.  You own a small one-story building which you use for your business.  You bought it because of its location and the kind of business traffic you get in that location.  You've been very successful there.  Now the city you live in comes along and condemns your property under eminent domain.  You get the bank or an appraiser to estimate the value of your property and what kind of losses you'll undergo as a result of having to relocate.  They come up with a figure of $1 Million.  The City's appraisers say the property is only worth $500,000.  Tell me in all honesty that you will not hire an attorney to represent your interest and go to Court to protect your investment?  According to the Supreme Court's ruling a year or so ago, land can now be acquired/condemned by cities or communities simply on the grounds that the land would be of more financial benefit to the city if it was used in another way.  People think they own land....all they really own in most cases is a license to use the land and it can be confiscated anytime there is a better use for it.  One of my clients here in Texas told me they had over 400 eminent domain cases and were anticipating more since the U.S. Supreme Court's ruling.  Tell me those attorneys are not needed to represent citizens' rights.  

Personally, I would hate to see a world with no one to represent the interests of the little guy.  I used to think like you, Mike, but I have witnessed far too much not to have changed me unless I had no conscious or just didn't understand intellectually what was happening.  Even before my own legal action, I thought I had all I needed to get my claim settled by myself.  I had an admission of liability, a police officer's report citing the man who caused the accident, a totaled car with pictures to show it, and medical bills of over $30,000, all of which I provided to the insurance company along with several doctors' reports indicating the severity of my injuries.  I signed a statement which the insurance company asked me to sign indicating I could be prosecuted if I was making a false claim.  Mike, I was still living in an illusion...that insurance companies would be fair, especially if I didn't ask for any extra.  Wow, was I wrong.  There is such an attitude of arrogance that permeates the insurance industry (at least here in Texas) that they won't even offer to settle death claims where there is clear liability.  Their TV ad campaigns (many times involving politicians) over the last 15 years have served to prejudice jurors here in Texas with the exception of a very few counties.  On this, I can speak with authority, since this is my job to know.  

I'm not saying that there are no crooks out there and people who would take advantage of a system.  What I am saying is thank God there are some "white knights."  It is not a black and white issue as you would argue.  Laws favor big business and insurance companies now...that has been happening right in front of our eyes for the past 20 years.  It was a planned assault and executed strategically by lobbyists in many, many states and in Washington, D.C.  They have more or less succeeded in shorting the little guy and limiting losses.  Additionally, the federal laws concerning class action cases...those were not designed to protect me and you...they were designed to protect big business.  

If manufacturers produced products that were not defective (many times on purpose); if contractors kept their end of the bargain; if insurance companies would just pay a claim when legitimate; if truck drivers weren't overworked or on drugs when they ran down and killed a car full of people; if farmers kept their cows fenced in on their property and they didn't get out in the road and cause someone to crash; if people kept their dogs on chains or in pens so they didn't get out and destroy a herd of sheep or a flock of ostriches or chew the hand off a little 6-year-old; if drugs all had clear warnings on the labels; if bar owners made sure no one ever left drunk; if pipeline inspectors never neglected their jobs and didn't miss a leaking hole which caused an explosion killing two teenagers in a horrendous fire with the dad watching his kids burn alive; if construction companies adhered to safety standards and OSHA regulations; if no one dumped toxic waste into back yards to drain down into your property contaminating your drinking water and causing cancer; if cities or states did not want to acquire property to boost revenue; if people and businesses always paid their bills, rent or mortgages on time; etc., etc., THEN we wouldn't need attorneys.  But until that day, I am thankful we have them.  

Oh, and by the way, the Texas State Bar has rules regarding attorney advertising and solicitation which are very strict.  I suspect that is true in Florida, too.  There are a few bad apples in the barrel that give attorneys a bad name...there may be some ambulance chasers, but that is unethical practice....why don't you report them to the state bar ethics committee?  No one ever approached me after my accident.  I had to seek help.  

In my opinion, federal tort reform is one more attempt by this administration to take power from the states and put it into the federal domain...I always thought Republicans wanted limited federal government and were states' rights advocates (since 1930s), and yet here we are right along with all the other legislation that has gotten through, e.g., No Child Left Behind, to name just one.  Geez....if I remember my history, wasn't it states' rights issues that brought on the Civil War?  

[This message has been edited by iliana (10-22-2006 04:20 AM).]

Balladeer
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17 posted 10-22-2006 09:19 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Iliana, you seem to be on a roll there but your examples have no connection to my comments at all. If you were to re-read my thoughts you would know that I am referring to FRIVOLOUS lawsuits being the culprit. I even gave examples of frivolous lawsuits. Your examples do not resemble them at all. No one has said lawyers are not necessary. No one has said there are not true life situations where lawyers are needed. Your comparisons make as much sense as Ron's, telling me how lawyer's trying to induce lawsuits are the same as Tony trying to get you to buy his Frosted Flakes.

Hey, at least you worked in an evilness of THIS administration. No thread would be complete without it.
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18 posted 10-22-2006 12:24 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Those who  don't feel that way won't and lawyers who don't feel that they can win the cases will not take them.

Ahh, so you want the lawyers to decide the cases now, Mike?

quote:
Your comparisons make as much sense as Ron's, telling me how lawyer's trying to induce lawsuits are the same as Tony trying to get you to buy his Frosted Flakes.

I'd love to hear you explain the difference, Mike.

Marketing is marketing.

quote:
If you were to re-read my thoughts you would know that I am referring to FRIVOLOUS lawsuits being the culprit. I even gave examples of frivolous lawsuits.

But you haven't told us why anyone should accept your particular definition of frivolous, Mike. Indeed, from where I sit, at least one of the examples you provided is questionable.

I don't think anyone would argue that frivolous lawsuits should be allowed, Mike. That's why judges dismiss them every day.

Local Rebel
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19 posted 10-22-2006 02:12 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Please continue the current Lawyer/Frivolous lawsuit discussion.  I'm not going to pile on that one because I've already said everything on the subject before.

What I find interesting and salient is this statement:

quote:

The problem is not with the schools, or the kids, or even with the lawyers (who, after all, can do nothing but represent their clients). The problem is with anyone who is willing to elevate easy money above personal integrity.



To what do we owe this cultural problem?

Could the erosion of loyalty from employers to employees be a part of this?  defaulting on pension plans, downsizing, defrauding Wall Street, political graft and the lobby culture, religious leaders fleecing the flock to finance lavish lifestyles, manufacturers who are all too willing to withhold safe technologies from the market (like seat belts) and intentionally market harmful products (like cigarettes), aren't these all representative of being willing to elevate easy money above integrity?

Is it new?

The only thing I see that is new is that people have lost faith in those who are supposed to lead, and figure, why not take advantage of the only opportunity that I might have -- even if it isn't fully legitimate -- might this be viewed as a way to cut into a stacked deck?

Furthermore -- why shouldn't we be all too ready to hold those who are charged with our personal safety, or that of our children, to accountability if they are negligent or willfully harmful -- as in the case of parishioners being sexually abused by clergy.

I was playing battle ball in Jr. High School inside a gymnasium.  It was just P.E. time and winter and we couldn't go outside.  Things got a little bit rough -- I was running to retrieve a ball -- pushed a kid headfirst into the bleachers -- busted his head.  There were medical bills.  Why shouldn't I, my parents, and the school have been sued?
iliana
Member Patricius
since 12-05-2003
Posts 13488
USA


20 posted 10-22-2006 03:44 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Excellent point, Reb!  I believe you have hit on the root of the problem.  
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


21 posted 10-22-2006 06:37 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
Why shouldn't I, my parents, and the school have been sued?


Because when you agree to play battle ball or any other physical game there's a likelihood that you could get hurt. The kid who banged his head and his parents should have understood that. If they are willing to play, or allow their kids to play, they are accepting the risk and it stands to reason that when something goes wrong they should have the integrity to pay the cost out of their own pocket.

The alternative gets us right back to the start of this thread, kids parents sues school, school's insurance company increases the premium, school stops kids playing battle ball.

Here's a little story of my own, it happens to be true.

When my youngest son was a toddler he was due for an annual booster injection, it was the usual cocktail only in this particular year, after a lot of debate in the media about the possible dangers, they'd decided to offer it with or without the measles inoculation. After weighing the risks my wife and I decided that we didn't want our son inoculated for measles, we had to visit the surgery, discuss the decision with our family doctor and the sign a waiver accepting the responsibility. A week later Martin was given his jab, two days after that I got a call from our family doctor saying that he need to see me. When I got to the surgery he explained that Martin had been given the wrong inoculation by accident, he apologised and gave me copies of all the relevant paperwork and suggested I spoke to a legal advisor. My lawyer confirmed that the mistake constituted common assault and that if I did take action at that time I was guaranteed to win and that I'd probably receive substantial damages. Though to his credit he also suggested that I should consider not taking action as the doctor had had the integrity to voluntarily admit the mistake. The lawyer explained that if any consequences came of the mistake we could at the time the consequences became apparent reconsider. Both my wife and I decided that we'd take no action at that time.

A lot of people said at the time that we were rewarding a mistake that we should have taken the doctor for every penny he had. They couldn't understand that the doctor had integrity, the lawyer had integrity and that we felt the need to reciprocate.

I think that's what Ron was talking about when he said "The problem is with anyone who is willing to elevate easy money above personal integrity." The doctor didn't need to own up to his mistake, the lawyer could have made a killing in fees and we could have made one in damages but we'd all have lost a little something along the way.

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


22 posted 10-22-2006 06:53 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Um, how does one enforce this ban?

As I recall, we never played tag during school hours, it was only after school.

Maybe things have changed, of course, but do schools have the resources today to watch the kids in order to enforce such things?

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


23 posted 10-22-2006 07:40 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Because when you agree to play battle ball or any other physical game there's a likelihood that you could get hurt. The kid who banged his head and his parents should have understood that. If they are willing to play, or allow their kids to play, they are accepting the risk and it stands to reason that when something goes wrong they should have the integrity to pay the cost out of their own pocket.



Your first sentence is the entire problem Grinch.  There is no such agreement.  Unless you want to fall back upon an implied agreement to send one's children to school rather than face charges.  Education is mandatory -- private schools are an option -- but still mandatory -- and home-schooling hadn't been invented at the time.  One must, by law, send children to school.  And in public or private school in order to pass one must participate in the full school curriculum.  Physical Education is part of that curriculum.  It was the school's choice to allow the gym coach to let adolescent males pick up hard rubber balls and throw them at each other as hard and as fast as possible.  Help us burn off hormones... keep the fights in the cafeteria under control... blow off steam.  Physical contact between the players was not part of the game.  I was ignoring the rules.  The situation was out of control.  Who's responsibility was it to control?

It was my responsibility to obey the rules and my parent's responsibility to be liable for any actions that I, as a minor, may take.  Was it not the school's responsibility to choose activities that would moderate the likelihood of severe physical injury?  Wasn't the school supposed to protect a boy half my size from me?

Would we even be having this conversation if we were talking about a window?  "I'm sorry I didn't mean to hit the baseball through that three-thousand dollar plate glass."  Would the response be -- "Oh, well, you didn't mean to so in order to maintain integrity we'll just eat the cost of replacing it."?

After all, it is glass -- shouldn't one expect to bear the risk for it being broken?

If a motorist is blowing through stop signs and red lights do we tell the people he injures along the way -- sorry -- you took that risk by getting out of bed this morning.  You should bear the responsibility for it.
JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 06-21-2005
Posts 679
Pittsburgh, Pa


24 posted 10-22-2006 08:01 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

~ And that people can defend their pursuit of MONEY because a game of whatever was being played at a school when someone pushed another sickens me.

~ Let's see ... with that rationale, I am at school walking down a pair of steps and because I didn't see another student or because I tried to avoid bumping to another student, I fell down the steps. Therefore, all steps should be taken out of school.

~ Purely, ridiculous.

~ To comment about the "battle ball" scenario, I'd say this. If one student blantantly pushes another, causing injury, whether it happened during battle ball or while praying in the school's church, the only thing that should happen is that the medical bills, if any, should be paid by the student doing the pushing - the school should not be held liable [insert period here]

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

 
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