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Balladeer
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0 posted 10-06-2006 10:05 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer


Associated press...today


House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi is thinking 100 hours, time enough, she says, to begin to "drain the swamp" after more than a decade of Republican rule. As in the first 100 hours the House meets after Democrats in her fondest wish win control in the Nov. 7 midterm elections and Pelosi takes the gavel as the first Madam Speaker in history.

Her plans are to:

Raise the minimum wage to $7.25 an hour, maybe in one step.

All the days after that: "Pay as you go," meaning no increasing the deficit, whether the issue is middle class tax relief, health care or some other priority.

Bush-era tax cuts would have to be rolled back for those above "a certain level."

recently said she would try to "cut-and-run" from Iraq while "launching bitter partisan investigations" of the Bush administration, possibly including impeachment hearings.

Asked what offices should would occupy if in the Capitol if she becomes speaker, she laughed. "I'll have any suite I want."



Drain the swamp? Launch bitter partisan investigations? Well, nice to know the House would be in such loving hands. Attampts at revenge seems to be the only thing she has ever done with vigor.......can't wait! Doing what's good for the country has always come secondary to doing what could  be bad for Republicans. At least she is following standard left wing protocol....
Midnitesun
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1 posted 10-06-2006 11:21 AM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Sure wish you'd stop lumping all liberals together as if we were just one big bowl of stew. I strive daily to not lump all conservatives into one big bowl of mush.
And for what it's worth, there might be as many Democrats as Republicans out there that would never get my checkmark on a ballot.
Have a great weekend Mike.
LeeJ
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2 posted 10-06-2006 12:35 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Mike, can you tell me how anyone, today, can live on  $7.25 per hour???

To, me, a minimum wage below 10.00 an hour is an insult to our compassion????

I don't know, that's just me thinking...and I know its lower then that now, but wow..a whole $7.25 per hour?????  

Just my thoughts...meaning no insult to any political side....

Mistletoe Angel
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3 posted 10-06-2006 02:06 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

I don't want either representing this nation as House Speaker.

I don't really like Nancy Pelosi, and not merely because she's from San Francisco as many conservative pundits complain, but because she strikes me as far more of a politician than an engaging leader, who's far more talk and far less belief.

However, Dennis Hastert has been quite a joke as a House Speaker as it is, who has become a central symbol of corruption in the party from connections to Abramoff to saying after Hurricane Katrina hit that spending federal money to rebuild New Orleans "doesn't make sense to me" and that "It looks like a lot of that place could be bulldozed.", to his personal attacks on Murtha and other dissenters on the Iraq war as appeasing our enemies and such among other partisan posterings.

My personal picks for an ideal House Speaker would be, if a Democrat, perhaps someone like Bud Cramer of Alabama's Fifth Congressional District, who is a centrist, Blue Dog Democrat not afraid to cross party lines, or if a Republican, like with Cramer, someone not afraid to cross party lines and has a moderate appeal like Jim Leach who represents Iowa's Second District, or even Christopher Shays who represents the Fourth District of Connecticut, both of which have flexible, independent leadership abilities and I think can encourage more cooperation and less partisanship.

I certainly won't agree with any one of them all the time on the issues, but that's hardly the point here. I recognize indeed that traditionally the role of the House Speaker is ensuring that the House passes legislation supported by the majority party, and also gauges when each bill makes the floor, but I also believe it doesn't necessarily mean the House Speaker has to be all unilaterally partisan him/herself.

When you really think about it, those names I suggested sound more fit for an ideal House Majority Leader than a Speaker of the House, but I just believe it would serve us well to try molding ourselves to the center-left and center-right again and keep moderation in check as we try and figure out what direction we want our nation to head next.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

[This message has been edited by Mistletoe Angel (10-06-2006 02:40 PM).]

iliana
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4 posted 10-06-2006 02:46 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Mike, you've quoted a bunch of things and I interpret that those are Nancy's words.  Could you please provide the link where you found them?  Thanks.  Oh, and, I'm with LeeJ on the minimum wage.  
Mistletoe Angel
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5 posted 10-06-2006 03:13 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

I may add too that though I overall disapprove of Nancy Pelosi on a personal level and don't think she'll make an effective House Speaker, I do share overall agreement with her on some particular issues she has outlined, including the minimum wage certainly.

I am fortunate to live in a state that has enacted its own minimum wage significantly higher than the national average, currently at $7.50 and will rise to $7.80 in January. But most states just aren't as fortunate currently, and the wage issue really is a moral issue, and over four-in-five Americans will agree with that.

A minimum-wage earner working 40 hours a week all year long under the current minimum wage of $5.15 has an annual gross income of $10,712, which is $5,000 below the poverty line income-wise for a family of three, and also while most Americans are struggling with sharply rising housing, health and energy prices. In fact, while prices keep going up, over the past eight years, the purchasing power of the minimum wage has deteriorated by 17 percent, and when adjusting for inflation, the value of the minimum wage is at its second lowest level since 1955.

Another startling statistic is that if the minimum wage was growing at the same rate as CEO pay since 1990, according to United For A Fair Economy, "the lowest paid workers in the U.S. would be earning $23.03 an hour today." Moreover, today the real value of the minimum wage is more than $3.50 below what it was in 1968, and to have the purchasing power it had in 1968,  the minimum wage would have to be $9.09 an hour today, not $5.15.

It's truly women, minorities and the hard workers trying to get by in America today that would most benefit from such an increase like this, and according to the Economic Policy Institute, raising the minimum wage would benefit 7.3 million low-income workers.

I may not agree with Pelosi on some issues, but she's dead right on this particular issue.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
Mistletoe Angel
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6 posted 10-06-2006 03:17 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Jo, the source Michael's referring to was published in the Washington Post today. Here it is:


*

Washington Post: October 6, 2006

[Article Removed - The link should be enough, Noah, and doesn't infringe on anyone's copyrights. - Ron]

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

[This message has been edited by Ron (10-06-2006 03:55 PM).]

serenity blaze
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7 posted 10-06-2006 03:23 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze


She's WICCAN?
Ron
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8 posted 10-06-2006 04:12 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
... and the wage issue really is a moral issue, and over four-in-five Americans will agree with that.

Well, I'm certainly not one of them, I guess. When did the cost of bread in a grocery store become a moral issue? Because that's exactly what you're talking about when you talk about equitable wages -- supply and demand.

Of course, it's actually good that I don't consider it a moral issue, since I don't believe in legislating morality, but do believe that even Laissez-faire Capitalism has to have some social caps in place. A higher minimum wage just isn't one of those places, in my opinion.

How about this?

Instead of giving people what they need through the auspices of legislation, what say we work towards letting them earn the skills to make what they need to live the good life. I can guarantee you, when the only people available to fill minimum wage jobs are the very young and the very old (both of which are going to suffer when wages are raised with no regard to supply to demand), the minimum wage will rise of its own accord.

Businesses pay what they need to pay to get a job done. Not more, and fortunately for those with skills and training, not less.


iliana
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9 posted 10-06-2006 05:47 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Noah, thanks for the link.

Mike, your take on the news article is very slanted and I would expect no less from you on October 6, a month before elections.  For example, you say she said "cut and run" but according to the article, that was a republican who said that about her policies, and of course, they would characterize the democrats with that strategy and those negative sounding words.  

And talk about run-away spending, did you ever read the link I gave you where McCain was going on and on about Bush's pork barrel spending or do I need to repost that?  Want to talk about deficit spending really?  Then you had better be prepared because the Republicans in power have outdone everybody but not where it really helps the middle class survive.  The disparity between the rich and poor is growing wider every year they are in office and the middle class is shrinking.  I think the places where she wants to adjust spending are very important...at least they are to me since I am in the middle class.  She also wants to implement the 911 Commission's recommendations....yeah!  Good for her.  

Since you are not one of her constituents, nor am I, I think your post is strickly partisan and serves as a campaign of disinformation.  Nothing personal...just how it seems to me, Mike.  Have a nice day.
Balladeer
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10 posted 10-06-2006 07:05 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, Iliana,I stand abashed there. You are absolutely right. I had read that part as a comment of hers and not a comment about her. You may believe that or not, it doesn't matter, but it would be foolish of me to print direct quotes intentionally false which can be checked so easily. I assume you found  that "draining the swamp" was accurate, then? If you wish to use that part to write off the entire article as slanted partisanship, be my guest.

I'm with Ron on the minimum wage. It's the old adage of giving a man a fish or teaching him to fish. Besides, when you raise the wages where does the money come from? Do you think a company of 1000 employees who now will pay out a large collective increase in pay will take it out of their bank accounts? No, they will raise the cost of whatever product or service they provide to cover it. You will pay for it. Yes, 7.50 would be hard to live on. Whose fault is it....the government who hasn't given them more or the individual who didn't do  anything which would allow them to earn more  than minimum wage? Like education or training or personal drive? I would like to see a government that provides more opportunity for one to improve one's lot in life than one which simply hands out a little more cash for not learning anything.
iliana
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11 posted 10-06-2006 09:24 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Surprise...I will go as far as agreeing with you and Ron that educational and training opportunities need to be provided.  The root of much of the problem is corporate greed and subcontracting out many jobs, including the low paying ones, to third-world countries or illegal immigrants the Wal-Mart mentality which very effectively has reduced the number of jobs available to U.S. citizens.  Educational funding has been cut under the current administration.  Do I want more cuts by keeping the current representatives and congressmen in office?  No.  I am a registered Republican who will vote for the person or party that will do something to save this country.  I am not proud of the direction my party has taken in the past 20 years.  I wont blame it so much on the party as the people who have gotten ahold of it and Mike, that is big business and their lobbyists.  I want to see change that will benefit the middle class of our society because that is the mortar that holds this country together.  Destroy the middle class and the country that you and I grew up in will be no more.  To tell you the truth, I would have been happy to have foregone the $600 handout in tax refunds that Pres. Bush gave shortly after in office, had the minimum wage been increased instead.  Of course, that was not an option.  This used to be a place where anyone could live the dream if they had the ambition and werent lazy.  Mike, it is just not as simple as that anymore work hard, study hard, save and you will succeed.   I want it back.  Im not saying Pelosi is the answer, but I do believe she cares about the middle class.  

The analogy -- "drain the swamp" -- actually seems quite appropo in that things do seem pretty murky like a swamp and it does need sorting out.  There is corruption and it does need to be uncovered. It might uncover some democrats, too, Mike, who knows.

Im still wondering what the purpose of this thread is, being most of us are not in her voting constituency.  
Mistletoe Angel
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12 posted 10-06-2006 10:25 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Most Americans don't even know who Nancy Pelosi is yet, so I find it interesting why a notable number of attack ads are aimed more against her than the challengers themselves. Same thing with Karl Rove.

I must say that I have reservations about Pelosi to some degree, but I think the real theme that will influence voters this election cycle is performance more than anything, across the wide spectrum of issues led by Iraq, the war on terror, corruption, the economy and perhaps immigration in particular.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Balladeer
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13 posted 10-06-2006 10:54 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Im still wondering what the purpose of this thread is, being most of us are not in her voting constituency.  

Well, Iliana, it's all in the definition of the Alley


The Alley
.
.
This forum is for flaming, complainin', and screaming your head off. Respectfully, of course.


I'm flaming and I'm complaining about something that irritates me. That's what the alley is for. Attached comments of support or conflict are optional ;0
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14 posted 10-06-2006 11:04 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
The root of much of the problem is corporate greed and subcontracting out many jobs, including the low paying ones, to third-world countries or illegal immigrants the Wal-Mart mentality which very effectively has reduced the number of jobs available to U.S. citizens.

Which, of course, has increased the number of jobs available to Earth citizens by the same numbers, Iliana. And made American products more affordable not just in America, but throughout the world.  

If American workers can't compete against those in third world countries, they should lose their jobs. It's called competition and it is always healthy. How can an American worker protect their job when someone else is willing to do it for a fraction of the money? By upgrading their skills and doing jobs that third world countries can't do. The only alternative is to implement artificial barriers to free trade, which never work for long and invariably make things even worse.

Does that sound harsh? Then why do we all, as consumers, buy our groceries and clothes and electronic gizmos from the business that can give us the better value instead of the business that most needs our money? Why should we expect our businesses to "buy American (labor)" when most Americans don't? Instead, we buy from the best seller, and that's as it should be.

It's called competition and it is always healthy.

quote:
I wont blame it so much on the party as the people who have gotten ahold of it and Mike, that is big business and their lobbyists.  I want to see change that will benefit the middle class of our society because that is the mortar that holds this country together.  Destroy the middle class and the country that you and I grew up in will be no more.

Who do you think employees the middle class, Iliana? They can't ALL be working for the Federal government, can they?  

The mortar that holds this country together is business, both big and small. Destroy that and the middle class will soon follow.

quote:
This used to be a place where anyone could live the dream if they had the ambition and werent lazy.  Mike, it is just not as simple as that anymore work hard, study hard, save and you will succeed.

I don't think that's changed, Iliana, and I suspect the immigrants who come to this country with absolutely nothing and then work their way through college while still managing to graduate at the top of their class would agree with me. The American Dream is still alive. It's just not an entitlement and, indeed, never was.


iliana
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15 posted 10-06-2006 11:58 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Ron, I respect what you are saying, but I have my opinions and will probably not be swayed.  

Corporate greed destroyed many lives here in Houston.  Corporate greed gets bills passed that hurt the common folk.  Corporate greed uses the general public as its testing grounds for deadly drugs (FenPhen, Vioxx, etc.).  Corporate greed does not care about the middle class or its survival if they can get a 10-year-old child in Indonesia to glue Nike's together -- competition, hmmmm. There was a time in this country, that was the case, too.  Have we forgotten that?  Or, is it going to revert to that in order for us to be competitive?  

Ron, who is talking about destroying big business?  I just want to see it better regulated along with control over the influence of lobbyists.  I'd like to see pharmaceutical companies impaired from offering doctors incentives to promote drugs which are known to be dangerous, for instance.    

I am not convinced a New World Order based on net profits is the solution, no matter how eutopian it may sound.  For that to happen, the U.S. will have to lose its place of power along with its middle class -- that is how it appears to me.  I hope I am wrong.  


[This message has been edited by iliana (10-07-2006 12:05 AM).]

Local Rebel
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16 posted 10-07-2006 12:05 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Well, about 70% of our economy can't be outsourced.  Retail -- which, as we know is Wal Mart -- mom and pops can't compete -- Radio Shack can't even compete -- Sears can't even compete -- K Mart can't even compete..... Hotels, um Restaurants, health care -- none of these things can be outsourced... but, guest workers can come here and drive our trucks and build our houses -- you know -- those jobs Americans just don't want to do.

So tell me.  What product can be manufactured only in America by Americans that we're hoping to be able to sell abroad in trade with the companies that bomb us with Barbie Dolls and Sneakers? And cars, and computers, and computer chips, and dvd players, and headphones, and guitars, and what product Ron?

What economists who champion unfettered globalization hope they will buy is our insurance, our financial services, and our telecom services -- but why should they?  Why can we offer those with a competitive advantage any better?

How do you run an economy of people shining each other's shoes Ron?

What do you call a country who's primary industry is retail, hotels, and restaurants?  Ah, I remember... third world.
iliana
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17 posted 10-07-2006 12:27 AM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

I read somewhere yesterday (sorry can't remember where) that even our border security is being outsourced to an Israeli contractor.  Is that true?

A few years ago, I called the government to find out how to go about getting my daughter's passport renewed.  When I paid $10 or something like that in order to talk to a person, I got someone who didn't speak English well, so I asked where he was....he was somewhere outside the United States, and he said their company had been contracted to do this work.  I have forgotten whether it was Canada or India.  Either way, I was appauled to think that when I called about U.S. passports, that had been outsourced, too.  


Balladeer
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18 posted 10-07-2006 06:07 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

There you have, it folks. The United States is a third world country (with 795,000,000,000 in exports)

Iliana, I know what you mean. I can't understand Canadians, either! )
iliana
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19 posted 10-07-2006 07:06 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Mike, this was an Indian or Pakistani who worked for a Canadian or Indian company NOT a U.S. company (and that is the point) whose English was extremely difficult to understand.  sheezzzz
Brad
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20 posted 10-07-2006 07:27 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

"The Witch" v. "El Diablo"?


Who ya gonna call?
Local Rebel
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21 posted 10-07-2006 10:37 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

There you have, it folks. The United States is a third world country (with 795,000,000,000 in exports)



And just surpassed a trade DEFICIT of 594,000,000,000 so far for the year -- that means money going out of the country...

-- there is a difference in present tense and future tense -- you used the word IS... not me.

One of the dirty little secrets of that export number though Mike -- is it includes manufacturing equipment 'sales' to countries that are taking the manufacturing out of this country so they can make the products there instead of here...

quote:

A new study has found that the United States' growing trade deficit with China has had an increasingly negative impact on the U.S. economy, causing job losses that reach into the most technologically advanced industries in the manufacturing sector and affect every state, according to a January 11 press release by the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission (USCC).  

Robert Scott, director of international programs at the Washington-based Economic Policy Institute (EPI), prepared the study, "U.S.-China Trade, 1989-2003," for the commission.  EPI is a nonprofit, nongovernmental research organization that focuses on the economic conditions of lower and middle-income American workers.

"In the rapidly changing big and broad economic relationship with China, it is crucial to have a full, comprehensive understanding of the facts and scope of the relationship," USCC chairman C. Richard D'Amato said.  "With such data, we can begin to assess the impacts China is having on our economic health and our national security."

Using a methodology that determines the number of jobs needed to produce exports and imports, the EPI study found that 1.5 million jobs were lost to lower-wage Chinese competition in the 14-year period between 1989 and 2003.  During that time, the U.S. trade deficit with China rose twenty-fold, from $6.2 billion to $124 billion.  It is expected to increase another 20 percent in 2004, to $150 billion.  

The study noted that the pace of job loss has more than doubled since China entered the World Trade Organization (WTO) in 2001, and that China's exports to the United States of sophisticated electronics and communications equipment requiring skilled labor are growing much more quickly than its exports of low-value, labor-intensive products.  

"The assumptions we built our trade relationship with China on have proven to be a house of cards," Scott said.  "Everyone knew we would lose jobs in labor-intensive industries like textiles and apparel, but we thought we could hold our own in the capital-intensive, high-tech arena.  The numbers we're seeing now put the lie to that hope -- as China expands its share even in core industries such as autos and aerospace."
--------
The report's key findings are:

-- The rise in the United States' trade deficit with China from 1989 to 2003 caused displacement of production that supported 1.5 million U.S. jobs.  The loss of jobs due to the growing trade deficit with China has more than doubled since it entered the WTO in 2001.

-- China's exports to the United States of electronics, computers, and communications equipment, along with other products that use more highly skilled labor and advanced technologies, are growing much faster than its exports of low-value, labor-intensive items such as apparel, shoes and plastic products.

-- The U.S. trade deficit in Advanced Technology Products (ATP) with China is now $32 billion, equal to the total U.S. ATP deficit.

-- China is also rapidly gaining advantage in more advanced industries such as autos and aerospace products.

-- The 1.5 million job opportunities lost nationwide are distributed among all 50 states and the District of Columbia, with the biggest losers, in numeric terms:  

California  (-211,045)

Texas (-106,262)

New York (-87,037)

Illinois (-74,070)

Pennsylvania (-73,612)

Florida (-65,733)

North Carolina (-65,279)

Ohio (-61,914)

Michigan (-54,313) and

Georgia (-49,589)

-- The ten hardest-hit states, as a share of total state employment, were:



Maine (-15,396, or -2.54%)

Arkansas (-19,859, -1.74%)

North Carolina (-65,279, -1.72%)

Rhode Island (-7,840, -1.62%)

New Hampshire (-9,878, -1.60%)

Indiana (-45,285, -1.56%)

Massachusetts (-48,086, -1.51%)

Vermont (-4,426, -1.48%)

Wisconsin (-41,150, -1.48%) and

California (-211,045, -1.46%)


http://usinfo.state.gov/ei/Archive/2005/Jan/12-31762.html




And, I notice you didn't answer the question...
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22 posted 10-08-2006 12:40 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

And cars, and computers, and computer chips, and dvd players, and headphones, and guitars, and what product Ron?
How do you run an economy of people shining each other's shoes Ron?

.
.
(to Balladeer) And, I notice you didn't answer the question...

Simple enough. My name's not Ron

you used the word IS... not me.

True enough. You simply used innuendos to refer to the U.S. as a third world country. I suppose that makes it ok....(and I'm fighting back the impulse to say "Well, that all depends on what "is" is)
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23 posted 10-08-2006 12:44 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

By the way, don't forget to thank the unions for making overseas products and services so lucrative....
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


24 posted 10-08-2006 02:18 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Why wouldn't it be 'OK' under any circumstance for me to refer to the U.S. any damn way I choose?  And I'm not making innuendos at all... nor am I refering to it AS a third world country -- I'm comparing our future economy to the economies OF third world countries.  Right now our only competitive advantage is capacity -- but with a billion people China will outstrip that capacity in short order.

And I will have to forget the labor unions because they simply aren't that big of a piece of the pie.  Labor costs have been very narrow slices in the makeup of product costs compared to costs of material, costs of capex, time cost of money, energy, marketing, distribution... all those costs remain or get higher.  Energy and time cost of money in particular when you start importing -- one place the labor pool goes UP is dock workers -- you've heard about that union and what those guys make right?

All in all it's a very, very slim cost improvement -- what's really lucrative though is telling Wall Street that you're downsizing and outsourcing -- because it sounds lucrative to them -- which drives your stock price up beyond your performance -- which is really lucrative if you're optioned.

 
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