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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
There seems to be quite a debate going on (and off) in the CA forum, I'm a little uncomfortable that it's taking place on threads posted for critical analysis so I thought I'd start one here so that people can discuss the issues in the open without trashing someone's thread. To outline the discussion so far some people have suggested that the CA forum is in danger of becoming another Open forum with less emphasis on critical analysis and more emphasis on friendly banter. Several suggestions have been put forward including additional rules to limit the number of posts and guidelines to ensure that comments that don't include at least a modicum of advice don't proliferate. A side issue has been the form that critical analysis should take, some believing that truth, red in tooth and claw, should be allowed while others believe that less harsh comments should be the order of the day. Ron has maintained that he's ready to listen to suggestions though I believe he'd also like a clearer definition of what the perceived problems are. I understand starting this here will probably mean going over ground already covered but I think it'd be worthwhile having this discussion in one place where it's open to a wider audience and less likely to disrupt the CA Forum. Has anyone got any thoughts? |
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kif kif Member
since 2006-06-01
Posts 439BCN |
I think the problem lies with 'standard', but with standard, comes boundaries and dead ends. It's a question of individual connection. In Critical Analysis, I believe everybody posting there wants a discussion on the form of their writing, and the reasons behind their content...and, how it all links together. However, when a full breakdown is presented, and it strikes further debates about form, the write in question sometimes gets forgotten, and the writer sometimes feels 'left out'. This should not be so...the writer could feel glad that their 'openings' instigated such literal interest, but the nature of critics means that the writer is all to often left feeling unable. My thoughts...Critical Analysis posts should be open to honest critique, and the posters should understand that it's not personal. Also, the critics should remember that what they offer, no matter how academic, must be given with empathy to the receiver, for although the suggestions are impersonal, it's a real person that recieves them. Personally, I love a good argument...the more forceful, the better, but I'm an almost middle-aged woman, who gets a kick out of upfront declarations. I understand that the methods that work for my inspiration don't always work for others, and that's the beauty of this site, it gives us all a platform to explore how to communicate in different ways, with different people. To our benefit. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
In everyone's profile is an option to allow for critiques and to give some type of info on their personal comfort level or what they are seeking in requesting critiques. And that holds for most all forums. In CA, however, it can be boosted a bit, but the originating poster's critique flag should not be completely ignored. Yes, things can get firey and heated there, but a writer puts something in CA to get advice, help with trouble spots, scancion assistance, or specific aid towards whatever form or format they are attempting; generally speaking, it's not to instigate 'discussion' on the values and merits of a particular style of writing. Believe it or not, there's a forum just for that. Yes, if a writer puts something in CA to make it better, that shouldn't be a call for OPEN SEASON on the writer or work. It might help all involved to take a few seconds and check the writer's critique message just to see what it is they expect and want, not to mention their own comfort level with critical analysis. Just my penny'orth.  |
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Ratleader
since 2003-01-23
Posts 7026Visiting Earth on a Guest Pass |
I don't spend much time in CA, though some folks have said I ought to, and others that I need to....which makes me an instant expert, so here's my, um, two scents' worth. It sounds utterly simplistic to say so, but what you do in a critique depends entirely on the poet, not on the poem, nor on the one who is lending a hand. To do critique right, you have to be able to assess --to feel-- exactly where that poet is in developing their craft, and what they'll be open to receiving. Then you have to identify those things in the poem that they will be able to improve, and in so doing improve their writing overall, not the full laundry list of what the poem might need in order to become deathless verse. You give them what they can put to use in the poem, that they will learn from in a general way while doing it, and what they're able to handle personally. In giving the critique, you have to express it in a way that particular individual will respond to. What is appropriate talk for one poet may blow another out of the water. Things that one person may stretch to apprehend, might be too simplistic for someone else. Make a mistake in either direction and your critique will be rejected. Most important of all, you have to leave yourself out of it. I've seen far too many critiques that were done by someone whose real interest was in making himself (yes, it's mostly men who fall into this) feel or look better in some way than the person he's working with, or perhaps the other people who will read it in the forum. Such critiques are often brilliant, but they almost always fail to reach the person who is seeking help, because they've ignored the person behind the poem, and so failed to communicate. So -- my opinon on this question is: what may seem like fluff to one person browsing through the forum, maybe exactly what that particular poet needs most, to become a better writer. Not a perfect writer, a better writer. In the same way, a critique that would devastate that poet, may be just right for the next poet in line. General rules might be, to give no critique that doesn't focus on the positive points of the poem and its creator's style, as strongly as on the points that you feel should be improved; to do it (and make it obvious that you're doing it) solely because you like helping and want to help that person become a better writer; and to look honestly both at that poet and at yourself, before you say a word. ~~(¸¸¸¸ºº> ~~(¸¸¸¸ºº> ~~(¸¸ ¸¸ºº> ~~~(¸¸ER¸¸ºº> ______________Ratleader______________ |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
There are some who welcome sophisticated and harsh criticism, or as someone said "brutal" criticism. So, I have a suggestion for Ron. Would it be possible to add four choices at the top of the window where the poet first posts indicating whether or not they are 1) beginners, 2) advanced, 3) came here for enouragement and gentle help, or 4) want advanced and harsher critiquing? (I'm sure someone could come up with wording better than mine.) Or, in the alternative, maybe there could be a separate section in their profile regarding the critical analysis forum in particular. Maybe everyone could be happier that way. [This message has been edited by iliana (10-05-2006 12:19 AM).] |
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kif kif Member
since 2006-06-01
Posts 439BCN |
Yet, to pre-define can create blockages. Face to face, we don't usually wade in with our own, hasty opinions, or off the cuff remarks. In my experience, we watch and listen to someone before making a connection. I try to remember now (it's taken a while) that when I'm online, I'm involving myself in a real conversation, with a real person, and no matter how 'right' or 'funny' I appear to myself, the other person can't see my face, and has no idea where I'm coming from unless I make the effort to show them. In this poetry site, I'd rather show my abilities with people skills than my weird sense of humour, or 'artiste' persona, because I really don't want to appear as though *I'm laughing at or disrespecting anyone, for I don't want to be the one who destroys anyone's confidence with their creative practices. (*there are other, flyting sites for that, for people who get inspired and thrive on that kind of banter, and deliberately set themselves up to be shouted back at.) Every Hoe Ha Dem Stick A Bush. (there's a stick in the bush to fit every hoe.) |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Why can't critiques be offered in Open based on the critique message on each member's profile? If the answer is "they can" why do we need a CA forum? In fact wouldn't that be a better venue? People who want advice would receive it, people who want to give advice would know when to give it, people who didn't want advice wouldn't get it and people who didn't want to give advice wouldn't have to. Everyone would get exactly what they want and a bonus would be that the critique and subsequent discussions might actually increase the understanding of the poem and open up the mechanics of poetry to a wider audience. |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
When I read that thread I was disgusted at the number of insults. It was really to bad. I have posted poetry in critical analyses and critiqued 4 poems. I don't critique often, because so many are so protective of there poems. When I look at a poem I look at ways to improve it. I don't call it un original extra. I think it is unfair to the poet to nuke the poem with out a plan to rebuild it. Originality is something, like flow, you can help them with. Secondly when I take criticism, If some one starts attacking me, I don't talk to them. If they don't have a way of improving my poem or say in specifics what I did wrong, I ignore them too. When I get treated with disrespect I disregard them. Only because being told The poem is stupid alone won't make me a better person Thirdly, If some one is confused about something in my poem I always try to help them understand it, because not only does it help me, but it helps them as well. Lastly, There are people who will always through out attacks to make themselves feel better or lag on to arguments to long so they "win". It is life. As a person we should have the responsibility to be functional. -Juju -<>-~-<>-~-<>- |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
There is a vast difference in my mind between critique and criticism. The poem itself is up for critique and suggestions when placed in th CA forum. The writer could be completely anonymous, and it shouldn't make any difference. If s(he) requested 'gentleness' for whatever reason, then the one offering suggestions should take that into consideration. There is no place for personal insults and nastiness. That is not what critique is about. It's to offer some feedback that will (hopefully) help the writer improve that particular post. [This message has been edited by Midnitesun (10-05-2006 04:19 PM).] |
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Ratleader
since 2003-01-23
Posts 7026Visiting Earth on a Guest Pass |
Ditto-ditto-midnite-juju! I just finished reading that thread, and frankly parts of it turned my stomach. Thinking about it now, I would make the first rule of those I listed up there in my first post, be this: Leave Your (fill-in-the-blank) Ego At Home Or Don't Critique! ~~(¸¸¸¸ºº> ~~(¸¸¸¸ºº> ~~(¸¸ ¸¸ºº> ~~~(¸¸ER¸¸ºº> |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: They can. quote: Need is probably too strong a word, Grinch. In truth, we don't need it. But it's desirable, I think, for much the same reason a Dark forum or a Spiritual forum is desirable. Except for the separation between Mature Content and the rest, our forums try not to be exclusionary. If someone posts a dark poem in Open, which happens frequently, they aren't reprimanded, nor is the poem moved. We simply assume they want a slightly different audience than they might find in Dark, which clearly is going to be more geared towards those wanting a steady diet of dark. CA exists for those wanting a heavier concentration of what is otherwise readily available in all the forums. Now, having said that, I'm also going to admit that most of our poetry forums were created as pressure valves for Open. Personally, I would much prefer to have everything in a single forum where people can, perhaps, serendipitously discover a form or theme they might never have sought out on their own. Realistically, however, we soon discovered after opening the forums, that some genres have the capacity to overwhelm what should have been better balanced. I'd like to see everyone read a really dark poem occasionally, and the same goes for a spiritual poem or one riddled with teen angst. But beyond the occasional read, I've discovered most people don't want too high a concentration of the stuff. Those who do, know where to find it. Giving people options, in my opinion, usually works better than giving people rules. They're like tax incentives, encouraging people to do what we want rather than trying to force them. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Giving people options is always a good idea Ron and I can see the sense in some segregation so maybe trying to reintegrate CA in Open isn't such a good idea, though it seems slightly more palatable than turning the existing CA it into a knocking shop. Especially when those getting knocked are the people the place was created for. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
The last thing I want to do (or will tolerate) is to turn CA into a knocking shop, Grinch. I've never found anything, from teaching to war (to even marriage), that has to preclude civility. Part of civility, however, is listening, which unfortunately is always going to include enduring a temper tantrum every now and then. |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
It was a real shock reading some of those comments It really is to bad -Juju -<>-~-<>-~-<>- * Juju * -<>-~-<>-~-<>- |
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Ratleader
since 2003-01-23
Posts 7026Visiting Earth on a Guest Pass |
quote: Yep. BTW, to be sure I was understood -- I said "rules" only because "guidelines" is such a cumbersome word! ~~(¸¸¸¸ºº> ~~(¸¸¸¸ºº> ~~(¸¸ ¸¸ºº> ~~~(¸¸ER¸¸ºº> ______________Ratleader______________ [This message has been edited by Ratleader (10-06-2006 08:53 AM).] |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Grinch: quote: Ron: quote: You're right Ron. You don't need it if you don't want an inclusive site. Right now your site excludes any established poet who is prepared to offer serious critique and debate. That isn't a signal, as you keep accusing me of, to exclude other less experienced writers and beginners. It's simply to make a place where saying WHY you like a poem is a requirement not an option. Is that really so onerous? How great would it be to have an internationally published poet of some standing to workshop in CA for a week or two helping beginners. Well I think it would be great anyway ~sigh~. It can be done, but not as CA is currently configured. Peace etc. M PS Oh, and I apologise to those who have read the various threads and got upset by my comments. I get excitable in debate. Too excitable. Another one of my many failings. Humm. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: No, it doesn't, moonbeam. That's a choice they make on their own. Next month is a big deal in rural Michigan, the official opening of deer hunting season. I'm not a hunter, so I might get the details wrong, but my understanding is that the hunters (established or not) are limited to shotguns and bucks. They can't shoot does or fawns. I think that's a reasonable limitation to impose. Poets (established or not) are welcome to offer serious critique and debate to those specifically requesting it. Again, I think that's a reasonable limitation to impose. Please don't shoot the fawns. quote: But where does it stop, moonbeam? "I like your poem 'cause it rhymes." "I like your poem 'cause it's short and sweet." "I like your poem 'cause it's, like, SO true." When the explanations don't meet your expectations, moonbeam, are we going to make yet another new rule? I help moderate at two web development forums, both of which offer web site reviews for people just putting up their own site. One of the forums insists a new Member has to make twenty-five posts before asking for a review, while the other makes no such demand. Would you like to guess which forum has a higher signal-to-noise ratio? Would you like to guess which forum spends far too much Moderator time deleting or disallowing what we call "me too" posts? Quality cannot be mandated, it can only be encouraged. Worse, making rules that can't be fairly enforced only teaches people that all your rules are meant to be bent or broke. I'd really like to avoid that as much as we can. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: A choice based on what they see happening in the forum. You know well what I mean Ron. A person posting in CA wants CA whatever their profile thingy says. And if they don’t then they are posting in the wrong place. quote: Precisely why I suggested helpful critiquing guidelines. And yes, I could see a situation where with a completely new and inexperienced critiquer even comments like those above would be fine. As long as the person TRIES to the best of his/her ability. You simply don’t believe me do you Ron, or don’t want to, I’m not some highflown academic intent upon a fixed “standard” I’m simply suggesting that the spirit of critical analysis should be adhered to and that posters should actually read the poem, think about it and then try their hardest to make a useful comment. Good grief, we ALL started somewhere. My initial critiques were simple verging on the banal - but at least I was trying. quote: I don’t have to guess I know of course. It might not have escaped your notice Ron that in life you have actually to work to get anywhere. I’m not suggesting that the workload for mods in CA won’t increase - it will. I wonder however which of your web-development forums achieves the most. quote: And you don’t think that posting this: “Dear Poster, We are happy for everyone to participate in this forum, but this is the one forum at PIP where we like to encourage people to explain WHY they like or dislike a poem. We would therefore be grateful if you would read the guidelines on critique above and re-post with any further comments you might have about this poem. All the best, Your friendly Mod.” directly after someone posts what we have been calling a “fluff” comments is encouragement? M |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
Moonbeam, I like reading newer poets here. I can tell you that no matter what we do in life there is always area of improvement. The reason I like reading newer poets is not only is it fresh, but it is an opportunity for my self to understand and learn. I can tell you right know being good at poetry doesn't happen over night. It takes years of practicing styles and learning. For example I am learning old English and reading old English poetry. I don't plan on writing my poems in old English, but I am taking what I can from it. I am a very young poet. 20 something years I have been around and have been writing poetry for five. So I am like a five year old. It is easy to forget this. It takes baby steps to grow up. It takes baby steps to teach. I have only one question for you. "What makes a good teacher." This is not an attack, just something I ask my self each time I teach some one something new. -<>-~-<>-~-<>- * Juju * -<>-~-<>-~-<>- |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: And your point is? quote: I know. quote: Qualities such as: Patience, understanding, subject knowledge, tolerance, discipline, ability to inspire and encourage, breadth of perception and thought, flexibility, ability to plan, self-knowledge, humility, respect. M |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
What about courage? Does being a good teacher require courage? |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Being a good teacher requires one thing above all others: A willing student. Which is probably why half the qualities mentioned are included in the list. Talking in terms of teachers and students is a little superfluous though, as far as poetry and the CA forum goes we're all students. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Nodding with you here Grinch. I never cared for the term "teacher", or even "guru". Which reminds me of a buddhist practice, (I think, my memory yanno...  ) which requires that the student, before being allowed to teach, must forget everything they know.Once you think you know it all, you cease to learn--and there is a very strong ego attachment to the accomplishment of mastery. But then? Forgetting is easier for some than it is for others though.   |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Karen, Courage too, especially to tell a pupil the hard things. And being a very good listener. Just being "good" helps too! From Grinch: quote: Actually as far as being a good teacher is concerned I am not sure. A really good teacher should be able to turn that situation around I suppose. Though I believe there are exceptions. Me learning French at school is a good one - or to be precise not learning. As far as CA is concerned though this goes to the heart of what I've being trying to say to Ron (check out my post a few moments ago in CA). Really we don't have the luxury to try and convert people to wanting to learn. To make a public internet forum work the people who come there have to want to learn from day 1. And that's all. They don't have to be Einstein, or Shakespeare or educated even; they don't have to know anything at all about poetry, they just have to want to learn and debate. And that's all I've been saying all along. ~sigh~ M |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I didn't ask the question to imply anything. In fact my reason for the question was personal and off topic. I asked about courage, because teaching remains a goal of mine, and after being given what I believe was a serious job offer, I had to admit that my number one reason that I haven't done anything to actualize my dream is that I am scared. And that's all there was to that... So carry on the good fight. I have my own demons. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: I know you didn't - I didn't mean to imply that you did - sorry. I just used the opportunity to make a point. Sorry again. M |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Moonbeam When it comes down to it there's no difference between your statement wanting to learn and mine a willing student.A willing student has to want to learn and anybody wanting to learn is, by definition, a willing student. All you need to do now is work out what you need to ensure you get both. I'll give you a clue, it's half the things you believe you need to be a good teacher. Karen, quote: It's not quite a fight, both Moonbeam and I are still holding our handbags. [This message has been edited by Grinch (10-06-2006 06:43 PM).] |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
But I think, that question is a very important one. You can be oh, that is a horrible question. It is your choice. I don't care that much. I say that to myself to humble my self. To think about my answer and understand the situation. It slows me down. A even better question is, What have my best teachers done. What was my worst teacher like. The only reason I use teachers is it is there profession to get there point across to students year after year. I am not using a metaphor. Just a real life example of some one. It is not a superiority thing. When have I said I was a better poet? I don’t. How do I know the poet is not using some exotic form of poetry? I am not going to argue this point any farther. I made it and I am out. If you have a question fine. -Juju -<>-~-<>-~-<>- |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Handbags can make a dandy weapon, yanno. That cliche' visual of the little old lady decking the boyscout with one ain't a cliche' for nuthin'. *laughing* |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Yeah, especially if it has something heavy in it, like a couple rolls of half-dollars or maybe even a handgun "ohboy: |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: Yes Grinch I know, I was using them synonymously. I was making two points: 1. In a real life one to one situation a really good teacher should be able to encourage an unwilling pupil to be willing, and 2. In a public internet forum it isn’t a practical proposition to do that, so the “student” (bad word for CA I know) must be willing in the first place. That’s all I was saying. quote: Karen You’re obviously wayyy too young to remember Mrs Thatcher! Heh. M |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Mrs. Who?  |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: I disagree. Strenuously! |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
quote: Ron, Wanted to say, I really think that is a good idea and would go a long way in helping more clearly define the purpose of CA. I take back what I said in the final post of the primary thread, re: “nothing will have been accomplished.” I wish to say regarding that same post, that an apology was not necessary, nor what I was going for. My main interest was and is, attempting to elicit clarity. You helped clarify a few things for me in that post. I thank you, and I apologize for, all too often failing at my own attempts to do the same. If I may repeat as well: Thanks for the opportunity to vent. Sid Note: I had said, that would be my final post to that thread, that's why I brought this here. If you must carp: Carpe diem! ICSoria My Poetry Forum |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
I don't think it is a matter of clarifying rules. -Juju -<>-~-<>-~-<>- |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
What do you mean by "willing student"? Some of the most important steps of learning and school in my life weren't determined by whether I was "willing" to learn or willing to go to school. Instead whether or not I was willing I needed to be exposed to learning things and knowledge, and things that are important and needed, whether I liked it or not! And looking back, I am glad that was part of it. If the learning and hard work was determined ONLY by whether I was "willing" at the time, I know for sure I had not learned or done much hard work at all. It is no different for me when critiquing a poem. I think the best learners are also lovers, but you need to meet someone or something before you may actually develop an affection for either the person or the subject. Whether someone is willing to learn the truth or not, we should always be willing to introduce it. Once the person actually meets the truth and understands it better, he may be much more willing to have a relationship with it [This message has been edited by Essorant (10-07-2006 05:23 PM).] |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: I mean someone who doesn't seek knowledge because they have to or are forced to but someone who seeks knowledge because they want to. Moonbeam, quote: I think we both agree that the first is valid, where we differ is that I believe the second, to someone who wants to teach, is a cop out, that's a small part of the job of being a teacher - the easy part at that. If all you want to do is teach willing students you can revise your list to just "subject knowledge" all the others are redundant. Personally I'd prefer the bigger challenge of turning one unwilling student into a willing one - in fact I'll do you a deal - you leave the unwilling to me and I'll supply you a steady stream of ready to teach students. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Reading through this, I'm confused. The original intent of CA was never to be a 'teaching forum'. Maybe that's what happened or maybe that's what seemed to happen, but the intent was not a teacher/student relationship, those in the know sharing with those who don't. The premise was to discuss what we mutually know, to share opinions, facts, research, whatever with others and then talk about it. Each poem was a trigger for that. How well that was actually accomplished, I'll leave for others to decide, but once you understand that calling a poem 'good' or 'bad', while necessary, was never really what it was all about to begin with. What makes a poem 'good' or a poem 'bad'? Why does this work in meter or not? Why don't cliches work very well? Or do they? Is concrete better than abstract or vice versa? The list of questions go on and on. Given that most people have no real interest in such questions, the forum was always supposed to be small. I know the confusion between being critical and critical analysis is always ever present, but in a real sense, there need be no teachers present or if you ask these questions, you're already a teacher. It's really just about doing it. Or if I can mangle my Shakespeare: "Thou art [already] a scolar, Horatio. Speek to it." |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Grinch I tell thee goodness must be taught whether students like it or not! |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Ahh, the imperative, the imperative!! Did anybody else notice that people seem to get hot under the collar the moment the word, 'don't' or something similar is used? What's all the hubub about? |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
Yeah, I am not sure if any one understood what I was trying to say. I used the teaching as an example as a way to reach out and communicate. I in no way meant it in a teacher/student relationship. A teacher/student relationship requires social status differences. While letting your self be the teacher or student is a choice. I wasn't speaking of the relationship, I was speaking of the act of being the good teacher. -<>-~-<>-~-<>- |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Brad: quote: 'Don't' doesn't bother me as much as 'should'. 'Should' lays somebody else's opinion of morals/duty on me and ices it with guilt. I hate when "they" do that. ("They" bug the hell outta me.) It's good to see you around again too, btw. Don't run off like that on me. You should stay on top of this stuff. *laughing* |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
There are many things I should be doing these days. Danny's doing fine by the way. One of these days, you should explain why everyone is so sure that an infant looks like you. I can kinda see it now, but c'mon, right after they are born? |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
There are noun and adjective forms of the word should in Old English: Scyld "guilt" Scyldig "guilty" A Norn and Valkyrie also has a Norse equivelent of the word as a name: Skuld |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Grinch (and Ron) Here I am again. First off, in the few days I’ve been away I see that Ron has moved CA. I think that was a very good idea indeed. It may go a long way towards addressing some of the “complaints” I had. However ... (there’s always a but) Grinch said: quote: As Brad said, CA isn’t a teaching forum as such. Personally I’ve always seen it as more of a workshop forum, which doesn’t imply so much of a one-way flow of knowledge. I think that distinction Grinch is fundamental to seeing why I am right about this and you and Ron are wrong .To contribute meaningfully in a workshop forum is actually more demanding than in a mere teaching environment. In the latter the pupil can simply sit there and absorb information, in the former everyone is equal. They really are. If you enter an online workshop you are granted, by default, equal status (regardless of your knowledge), and if you contribute poems and critiques to the best of your ability then that status remains and the workshop “works”. So far so good ... however, like it or not, quite a few people enter online workshops with either no idea of why they have done so, or no intention of participating in two-way exchanges. It’s not so much that they are, as you put it, “unwilling pupils”, more that they aren’t pupils or potential participants at all. The point that perhaps you haven’t grasped (forgive me if I’m wrong), and that I suspect Ron has grasped but doesn’t seem to care about, is that these “maverick” posts do actually do positive harm to the chances of the forum “raising its game”. (I’ve been over the precise reasons as to why this is the case already but if you want me to restate then I will). You offer me a deal. It’s a bit one sided (unfair on you) because for my part I have the pleasure of simply interacting with willing workshoppers. You on the other hand have, what I suspect is, the impossible task of persuading people who came to CA with no intention of participating in a workshop to participate. I still think that multiple postings of poems without a critique contribution should be removed or moved to Open with a very polite note. And I still think one line critiques without any effort to say WHY should be subject to a polite direction to critiquing guidelines and on repetition polite deletion. Ron’s argument that the poster of the poem should be allowed to determine the uselessness or otherwise of such critiques addresses a different issue entirely. In my view there is an overriding duty on the moderators of the forum to ensure that the face presented to the outside world is not one that will dissuade serious poets and critics. That is a duty that is owed to all the other people who are prepared to invest their time in making the workshop work. And no, lest I’m accused again of elitism, that does NOT mean a clique or a standard or a bar. It just means a polite note to those posters who clearly have no intention of contributing. So here’s the deal Grinch, you do as you seem to want to and persuade, to take a random sample from recent history, william foos, Master666, and mrmojorisin5908 to participate actively in the forum for a few weeks, and in return I’ll admit defeat and accept that non-participators can in fact be “converted” to contributors. If you fail however I shall expect you to support my next rant at Ron. Heh. M |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
I don't think a poem in ca should be moved to another forum if there is no one answering them. I am pretty sure that would be kind of mean. Just because no one has replied to someone’s poem in while doesn't mean someone wont. It usually takes a month when I post poems in that forum for them to be analyzed. I don't like the Idea if "no one replies to your poem it will be removed from this forum." I don't believe I will express my reasoning, it is self evident in that statement. -Juju -Juju -Juju |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
~sigh~ quote: It wouldn’t be just mean. It would be mean, and also counterproductive. It would mitigate against a thriving critical forum. Did I say anything about moving a poem to another forum if nobody was answering it? I don’t think I did. M |
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stargal Senior Member
since 2006-03-06
Posts 1352OR USA |
Okay, I just want to see if I’ve got your intent correct on this one moonbeam, and forgive me for being dense about this cause I am very dense Are you suggesting that if someone posts a poem in CA and doesn’t take the time to critique more then one line replies, or none at all, that their poem should be removed since they didn’t participate in critiquing? Just wanted to add, the online workshops you are talking about usually go down hill fast when there is a required amount of replies you have to make for each post. I know of six workshops that require, for every poem you post, 3-6 replies on other poems. The problem that they are dealing with, at the moment, is in requiring replies they receive such remarks, ”I loved your poem, it has nice flow”, instead of in-depth replies that you are looking for. The reason that their having this trouble is everyone wants to get rid of their required replies so that they can post more poems. I find that pip is doing just fine as it is, sure, it has a few replies like that in CA but for the most part it is more advanced in the “good” replies then other workshops. "I will love the light for it shows me the way, yet I will endure the darkness for it shows me the stars." - Og Mandino @-->--- |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
"I still think that multiple postings of poems without a critique contribution should be removed or moved to Open with a very polite note." -Maybe the poet doesn't want to critique. I may have miss read yours, but this I don't like either. "And I still think one line critiques without any effort to say WHY should be subject to a polite direction to critiquing guidelines and on repetition polite deletion. " -Once again, What if the person admires the poem, but doesn't feel like making critique. I don't like that either. "sigh" Yeah anomonapia! -Juju |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
StarGal quote: You have to go back to what I happen believe the “point” of CA is. It’s a learning forum, I prefer to think of it as a workshop, rather akin to an offline workshop where everyone sits in a circle and each person reads a poem and then all the group discuss it, each person putting forward their view of the poem in turn. In my view there are immense benefits to this mutual exchange as it encourages people to think about writing other than their own and in my experiece usually benefits both poet and critic (as poet) alike. The point is, that without that mutuality, that giving of your thoughts on other’s work as well as the taking of people’s thoughts on your work, a learning forum like CA will gradually stagnate. The givers of thought gradually become disillusioned and drift away, the comments that do remain become of low quality, potential poets looking in from the outside see this and see no point in posting their work, and the cycle of deterioration continues. So back to your question. It’s a matter of degree. My own view is that a newcomer should perhaps be given the chance to post one poem and receive comments. But yes after that there should indeed be a compulsion to critique others before posting another. quote: And I know of several that work just fine with this criteria. The problem isn’t the rule, it’s the way it’s administered. At the end of the day, as Ron has said recently, “you can lead a horse to water ...”. Someone who is going to abuse the spirit of a workshop forum is always gonna do so no matter what you do. It’s how you deal with it and how that action is perceived by potential “punters” or, er, “clients” to use Ron’s dubious analogy. quote: Well I’m happy that you do. Most of PIP is great. Up till a short while ago though, CA was a wasted opportunity, a dishonesty and frankly a mess IMO. Ron’s made a change for the better, though it still has a way to go IMO. Juju quote: If the poet isn’t prepared to critique then, with respect, what the hell is he/she doing in the CRITICAL ANALYSIS forum? quote: If a person admires a poem but doesn’t have anything useful to contribute as to WHY he/she likes it then he/she should either say nothing or else e-mail the poet. Juju, my views on what CA should be are set out above in my reply to StarGal. M |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Why does this feel like deja vu all over again? M, I do know we tried most of your suggestions and for a moment it did work -- at least from my standpoint. But it's very hard to keep it up and, I don't know, still maintain decent family relations and/or your sanity. Honestly, you should see my wife's face when she sees these blue screens pop up on the screen. But that's okay too. I encourage you to keep trying here. Those moments do happen from time to time and they are a treasure to remember. But what you want is exclusive. I know you deny it, but that's the inevitable result of what you're trying to do. Exclusive isn't always a bad thing, but it's going to lead to people feeling excluded (They are a prickly, sensitive lot, these people who try to write) and that means you'll get people who misunderstand the intent. I've always tried to think of CA as a coffee shop conversation after a good movie, but what happens when a new guy drops in, wants to talk, but hasn't seen the movie? What happens when a person who is already 'in' simply detests one of these newbies? What happens when a person feels slighted? What happens when a person who feels slighted slights the other guy? And on and on and on . . . But that's okay too. I do hope you fine that treasure moment. It was a fun ride. Advice: E-mail as much as you can. Oh wait, I think you're already doing that. Oh, and never get near a computer screen after more than one drink. |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
Useful? Usefulness is something relative. I say you could critique someone to the moon and that might still not be as effective as telling someone you appreciated their poem. You know If Ron decides to make these changes, That is totally fine. All I know is I kind of like the freedom. And Being known as a poet of little words, I can tell you, so much can be said and done in very little words. -Juju -Juju |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Oh, I think telling someone what you were thinking when you read their poem is more useful then simply telling them you liked it. You don't have to say line 4 is awkward. You can say, "Hey, this reminded me of . . ." or "This popped into my head, I don't know why." kind of stuff too. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: Yes, quite, as long as you tell them WHY you appreciated it, trying to be as precise as possible. quote: There ya go Juju - Brad can read my mind (as always). M |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Why does this feel like deja vu all over again? >>> Because it is. I do know we tried most of your suggestions and for a moment it did work -- at least from my standpoint. >>> Yep, “for a moment” I understand. And “very hard” I understand that too. You’d need more moderators or quasi-mods. More work, more time etc etc. Ron would have to modify his views on why mods are there too, although I have a feeling his last post on that subject wasn’t representative of his “real” views. But it's very hard to keep it up and, I don't know, still maintain decent family relations and/or your sanity. >>>Tell me about it. But “Many hands ... etc etc” Honestly, you should see my wife's face when she sees these blue screens pop up on the screen. >>>Lol. But that's okay too. I encourage you to keep trying here. Those moments do happen from time to time and they are a treasure to remember. >>>I know that too. I remember a couple or two But what you want is exclusive. I know you deny it, but that's the inevitable result of what you're trying to do. >>> ~sigh~ Yes Brad, of course it’s exclusive in the sense that it might exclude people who had no intent “to participate”. Exclusive isn't always a bad thing, but it's going to lead to people feeling excluded (They are a prickly, sensitive lot, these people who try to write) and that means you'll get people who misunderstand the intent. >>>Brad the evidence (elsewhere) doesn’t really bear that out. Even here at PIP after, what at least 3 years of “Ron’s way” in CA (no offence Ron), you’ve got Karen sensitive about her reception in CA and suggesting that there are many people in PIP who would post in CA but are intimidated. So much for inclusiveness. I think a lot of the problem resides not with requiring people to honour the spirit of a workshop environment but with this rather uneasy marriage between the main purpose of PIP and the ostensible purpose of a critical analysis forum. It causes frictions and frictions cause sensitivities. I feel sure that if everyone knew what was expected of them when they post in CA, that would help to make existing participants less resentful and more inclined to be welcoming - less snippy. I've always tried to think of CA as a coffee shop conversation after a good movie, but what happens when a new guy drops in, wants to talk, but hasn't seen the movie? >>>Good analogy. Precisely why some clear signposts should be on show. “Go HERE to see what’s expected of you” and, even better, “HERE for a quick synopsis of the movie”. What happens when a person who is already 'in' simply detests one of these newbies? >>>The mods (who must indeed be present and be police - despite Ron’s reservations) quickly step in. What happens when a person feels slighted? What happens when a person who feels slighted slights the other guy? >>>Yep Brad. You’re asking what happens in life. It gets sorted. But that's okay too. I do hope you fine that treasure moment. It was a fun ride. >>>I like to strive. It’s the point. Advice: E-mail as much as you can. Oh wait, I think you're already doing that. >>>Indeed. “Teaching” as you’ve already pointed out, doesn’t work in a workshop forum. I discovered that the hard way a while back. Oh, and never get near a computer screen after more than one drink >>>Moi! More than one Glenlivet?! Jamais. Heh. Merci pour this Brad. Vous puttez the smile back on my face. M |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
sweetie, nobody's got me sensitive about anything. I'm just trying to tone down my usual behavior because it seemed to be an affront to others, and I had to admit, it's rather difficult to tell when I'm serious when I'm not holding a .38. (I really DO have other stuff to think about.) My sensitivity of late is directly related to menopause, anxiety, post traumatic stress and a medical condition that renders me, um, almost allergic to my own chemistry. Go figger. Too much info, huh? Oh well, that's me all over.  And that's enough bouncing for today. I'm tard. I'm gonna call in my valium refill. Ta. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Karen quote: Hunnie-bunch, there you are being sensitive about not being sensitive. Karen the serious point (and the one I need to make to make my argument - heh), is that you did complain of feeling unwelcome in CA and you did say that others in PIP were too intimidated to post in CA. Moreover, there have been destructive sensitivities between CA and Open. All I'm saying is that Ron's desirably open brothel or rosy inclusiveness ain't been all it's cracked up to be for a while. There are enough good poets in other parts of PIP to provide a stimulating and continuous flow of discussion in CA more or less indefinitely, even if they posted at a rate of only one post per poet per month or something. Where have they been if it's been working so well? M |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Someday, perhaps, but not now, I will tell my grandkids, (hopefully) and the rest of the world about what life is like behind the iron curtain. Then you perhaps you might have some inkling of what's left of my sanity here behind the glass curtain. DO YOU KNOW SOMEONE STOLE MY IDENTITY? MINE!?! As if life wasn't ridiculous enough, somebody decided to take the rags of life off of my freaking back, and now I can't get a social security card, AND medical bills were made in my name toward medicaid and now I'm supposed to somehow provide proof of citizen ship, in a place where ALL VITAL RECORDS WENT UNDER WATER--and HOMELAND SECURITY is dictating I gather forms that do not exist--from an institution that no longer exists, while I am quite honestly sitting here with a .38, waiting for the lastest crackhead who threatened me and mine to make bail--glad only that the only transportation he has are his feet, since the vehicle that was stolen was confiscated, so I figger I have nothing to fear but a "walk by" shooting, 'cause this dummy hasn't held a job in thiry years. For cryin' out loud, I am afraid to go to HOME DEPOT, lest I be rounded up and sent to Mexico with the rest of of the illegals--but yeah, I am quivering in fear, worried that I'll get my feelings hurt in CA. ARE YOU FREAKING MAD, MAN???  (Do I spell that with one "ell" or two?) My sensitivity was toward others. They don't know me, so they have no idea if I'm just there out of part of the dastardly plan to ruin that HUGE party that was going on in CA. But now, I LIKE it there, so put up with me. And yanno, I'm not even mad at YOU. Curious, yes. I have to wonder what is going on in someone's life that they feel compelled to run willy nilly through online forums, picking fights and making mental muscles. OH. Do you live in New Orleans too?  |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: Er, ~scratches head~, have I missed something? "Picking fights" "running willy nilly" "mental muscles"? Maybe you were right Brad ~deep sigh~. Perhaps this is all a waste of time. M PS Karen, the last thing I intented to do in this post was annoy or upset you. Mea culpa. I was just trying to make a teeny point to Messrs Ronald and Grincho. Mea culpa mea culpa tres sorry. Simply put, watch my lips closely: There is nothing I'd like better than for you to post in CA every minute of every day, the world would be a better place for it. Truly. Peace. PS Oh yes, and the delightful poet called Maree, and Christopher, and Balladeer ... and Martie, oh yes, Alicia too. . . . . . . . and, er, Marge ... . . . . there I said it ... |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
My apologies too. (Guess who didn't get her Valium refilled.) And I am watching the clock for Nurse Ratchet (my husband's new nickname) to wake up so I can have my other meds. And btw, if you actually have a four page critiqe on my last post there, I would love to see it--posted or via e mail. thank you I think I am over myself now. (This one was easy, mb--last week I threw dirty dishes out the back door--wish I were kidding--sigh) |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
np Karen, sorry to hear about your woes, Anyway it was worth reading your post just for this: an image that would have been mightily useful over the last few weeks, and might again yet I guess. M "one ell" |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
On the critty thingy - I was just teasing Brad, but I'm up for a four page forensic on one of yours, er, poems I mean. Gimme a day or two, or three. M |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Well, I just posted something confounding me just now. And I may be hitting you regularly on poems of a similar theme, so...um, have at it. I'm considering inclusion of some of this stuff in chapbook printing--a little something for the survivors of ourselves. My very own basketball diary--without the basketball. Or the diary. Or Leonardo DiCaprio.  But seriously, I would appreciate your input. I ain't askeered of you. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I think the next best step may be formalizing the guideline for writing a good critique. Moonbeam did a very good job at starting a guideline here If we worked on this and completed it, would Ron be willing to give it an official standing in CA, so people have an outline or reference to help them write a critique? |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Ty Ess but I still think it was a bit long and also badly in need of some mention of scansion. Not a topic I'm comfortable with. Volunteering? M |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
I think something has been missing from this discussion which I came across today. The focus of unpolished works in CA is to help the writer by critiquing the work in question, not critiquing critiques to the work in question. Responses should always be about the poem, not about what others think about the poem. This grants the writer a bit more clarity when trying to polish their work by the recommendations of those who read and offered critiques, rather than ferreting out the wheat from the chaff of responses to responses. But then, I'm simple like that. |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
(; -Juju |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: GOOD GRIEF!!!! Heh! Now we're rockin' !! Beautifully and elegantly stated Alicat. You’ve highlighted the main difference between most serious critique and workshop boards, and for that matter, most offline workshops, and CA. If you look through the voluminous discussions in recent weeks in CA you’ll see that I have several times expressed my reservations about CA effectively being a playground in which anyone can say anything (within PIP rules) about other people’s critiques. My head, and logic, and indeed experience, tell me that what you say is absolutely right. My heart sorta says well let’s give the free for all approach a chance at least. I’m also swayed by the fact, of which you may not be aware, that both Ron and Pete, and presumably most of the other senior mods, are absolutely against imposing a restriction that rules out responses to others’ critiques. Ron has always seen CA a as a free discussion board where its quite legitimate to say that you don’t agree with the critique of another poster. Personally I think this is an incredibly high risk strategy in a writing forum. There are quite a few reasons why it’s a bad idea to allow such a freedom not least of which is the fact that if a poet posts a poem in CA he/she is presumably wanting critique and glad to have it. It’s an invitation. It’s quite another matter for a novice critic to pluck up the courage to post a comment to try and help that poet only to have his/her opinion questioned or even rubbished by another critic. A recipe for resentments and tit-for-tat. Also a recipe for frightening people away from CA as far as critiquing is concerned. My own view is that a laissez faire approach allowing critiques of the critiques could work but only with VERY strong and fair and active moderation of the board, something that Pete is quite obviously not able to do alone even if the rules permitted it. Which they don’t. Since I’ve been here my views have modified slightly in that some other boards I’ve been on can end up being a bit sterile and academic if absolutely no extraneous discussion is allowed at all in the threads. So I wondered whether a compromise whereby discussion and comment on others replies could be allowed but only provided that no negative comments at all were made either directly or indirectly. In other words if you can’t say something in agreement with somebody else’s crit then just shut up and let the poet decide which opinion to use instead of embarking on an in-thread argument. You have no idea how very grateful I am that you raised this Ali. Many thanks. Ron, anyone? Comments? M |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Yes, I was hoping we could begin a thread specifically for working on the guidelines collaberatively, so all members could contribute as much as they are able and according to what they know best. Do you think that is a good idea? |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: Yes. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
By the way, I strongly disagree with limiting comments to only the poem or trying to stipulate that a comment about something raised in a critique should never be negative!--I think both of those are contrary to what makes critical analysis. There is much evidence to show, including the past few weeks in Critical Analysis, opening discussions and opinionwrestles about critical points raised anywhere in the thread, surely gives the forum more critical activity in respect to both critiquing poems and discussing and debating things that are raised among critiques. I think both are necessary to allow for diversity of critical activity and sharing opinions, judgements, an overall critical analysis. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Like I say Ess I'm becoming ambivalent about that point. I think it COULD be made to work but I think it can also lead to potential for a good deal more upset than if comments were limited to poems or to positives. The secret IMO is rigorous moderating. I really do think that there is a serious chance of frightening new critics away otherwise. It can be worked out though. M |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Okay. But as long as ya'll know ya'll ain't the boss 'o me.  |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: Never ever Mistress Karen  |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
"The secret IMO is rigorous moderating." I somewhat agree. Although I wouldn't say "rigorous" moderating instead of just more moderating. I think the forum could benefit if it were opened to Deputy Moderators. A Deputy moderator would help everything out as much as he can, and take it on as a bit of a commitment for a short period of time. That would both help Pete and help the members in the forum as well. I also think it may help maintain the criticalness of activity a bit better. That in combination with a formal Guideline to help write a good critique I think could make a long-lasting improvement to the forum. Does anyone else support the idea of Deputy Moderators in CA? |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
I do, if it means that somebody steps in to prevent new critics being too badly mauled by existing members (or any members for that matter) we really don't want to dissuade people from having a shot at critiquing. I'd also like them to be able to deal with "carpet bombing" and "timewasters"; but that's another battle for another day. M |
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Ratleader
since 2003-01-23
Posts 7026Visiting Earth on a Guest Pass |
LOL "carpet bombing" -- great term! So....maybe the answer would be to limit the number of responses per day in CA, instead of the number of poems you can post.....? No, I wouldn't seriously suggest that, but the thought did make me pause for a moment, so I thought I'd share the joy..... ~~(¸¸¸¸ºº> ~~(¸¸¸¸ºº> ~~(¸¸ ¸¸ºº> ~~~(¸¸ER¸¸ºº> |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Well, some of my more conversational replies might be limited to less if I have someone's e mail. But my style, even in writing, is conversational, and I think I have made some attempt to tone that down. But if someone offers me advice or reading material I find agreeable, I will still feel compelled to politely thank them or otherwise comment. And Deputy Mods? I think I'd have to shrug off the place altogether. I'm not sure what you guys want, and you called my uncertainty sensitivity. I toned it down when I found my generally friendly tone to be deemed unseemly and distracting, but I don't know how to be anyone else. So, here I am, just being me, Karen of no ell, and if I post something there, then my critiques get critique, and if I don't post my stuff there first, then I'm obviously not "serious" about improving my poetry. Is there any way to make you guys happy? That's not a rhetorical question either. I find myself confounded by what it is you actually want, short of Pete throwing up his hands and saying "Here, Moonbeam. Here, Essorant. The forum is YOURS." How long do you think folks would stick around if you pounce on every comment, every smilie, and anything said in the spirit of fun? Or have I misunderstood you yet again? I mean, c'mon, I went in there and pitched a few balls, and I'm beginning to suspect the bat is being swung at ME. I've gone in there before too, previous to this recent commotion and found my work ignored, my critque seemed to be not received very well and so I just shrugged and went back to open. And now that I am here, I'm finding templates being shoved under my nose, and it seems my entire personality is under the scope too. If you want people to utilize the forum, you should make it user friendly. I'm not saying go back to "how wonderful" and applause applause applause, but as of right now? The general consensus of the informal survey I have taken is that no one wants any part of it--and it isn't because of me, or the quality of posts, it is because of the rigid formality and the convenience of application of rules. (Um, there was some fun exchange between Ess and another member, but that's acceptable, whereas if two newer members tried that, I'm quite certain we'd be smacked with a metaphorical discipline ruler. And now, if I am reading correctly, you want Deputy Moderators as well. Gee, I wonder who might be nominated for THAT? Or was that snide and sarcastic, and is such banter only allowed amongst yourselves? sighing here because I AM in earnest--you seem to want more participation in CA--but can't seem to digest that the problem lies in the stifling atmosphere. I think that part of the problem there is that some members have already self-appointed themselves as moderators, teachers, or instructors, and any disagreement is met with derisive sarcasm. I set my sarcasm aside to type this, and I ask you, quite sincerely, if you don't think I might have a small point that the very things you criticize about the forum, you belie by the examples of your own behavior. I find myself coming to the conclusion that I am in a no win situation. Every opinion, every post, every letter of every word I type will be feeding time at the zoo. And I am truly dismayed, because for a while there, I had some hope. Silly me. |
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Ratleader
since 2003-01-23
Posts 7026Visiting Earth on a Guest Pass |
As far as I can tell, I’m more in Karen’s camp than anyone’s on this, though I certainly appreciate the points – and frustrations – of both sides in this…..so I guess I’m mostly talking to her right now. We all need to remember that it’s voluntary, fer cryin’ out loud! Strictures and structures are for people we’ve hired for a job – they take the bribe and do things exactly like we tell ‘em….but voluntary implies freedom to do as much or as little as a particular individual wants to do, and that’s how I think it should be. I for one LIKE some “more conversational” replies – while it’s good to make a comment that you think will help the writer “build” the poem if they want to, I just can’t see anything wrong with telling someone you like their poem as it stands, including merely telling them you enjoyed it, if you don’t see something you feel strongly enough about, to make a critical comment. That’s doubly true for the Deputy Mod suggestion – I doubt that there’s anybody in this discussion with any uncertainty about where I’d come down on that one, and since in my own experience the deputy mod has virtually no voice in the running of a forum, it would be pretty pointless to have them helping out in a forum where many of the general rules for posting don’t necessarily apply anyway. In other words I think they’d be in the way, and whoever took it on would almost certainly get sick of it and quit. Karen, about that friendly tone you mentioned…..you’re absolutely right. I’ve worked successfully with a number of poets here, but only one-on-one (and not just "newbies" -- some of the names would probably make you think I was making it up). While I’ve avoided CA partly for personal reasons, I’ve also stayed out because of the tone I’ve seen in too many responses during the two or three false-starts I’ve made at helping out in there. That friendly approach, toward someone who just put a slice of his guts on the table for your inspection, is absolutely necessary. Posting without critiqueing…..why the heck not???? The very reason a person posts something to CA is that they’re feeling unsure of themselves or of their current strength as a writer. It seems two or three notches past silly, to require someone with that kind of uncertainty, to expose even more of their innards by taking the risk that they’ll showcase in a critique some of the very things they’re most afraid they don’t know. Also…little side note to Karen here…you just saw in another thread, an example of my own oversensitivity…I took a little nip out of you not because something you said was too much, but because I’ve been rubbed raw myself, by having certain people “lay in wait,” as a friend once put it, to stomp on things I might say, because they didn’t like my personality. In fact, I don’t come in The Alley much, because some of those people hang around here, and I’m feeling QUITE uneasy about participating in this thread on account of it. So…I very much do understand your feeling there, and I’m sorry I added to it a while ago. Email Shmeemail, I gave offense right out where everybody could see it -- thought I ought to lead by example, and apologize in exactly the same highly visible way -- so I did! Anybody who doesn't like it -- heh-heh-heh...send me an email. Having a “small point”…..NO…you have a very large point, and it’s NOT on top of your head. I think you are saying things that have needed to be said….I also think that the next sound you hear is likely to be an echo from a fortress wall – but that’s just my feeling, and I’ve grown quite used to having those ignored in PiP – earlier in this very thread, for instance -- so I may not even notice. ~~(¸¸¸¸ºº> ~~(¸¸¸¸ºº> ~~(¸¸ ¸¸ºº> ~~~(¸¸ER¸¸ºº> ______________Ratleader______________ |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Karen For heaven's sake. Why do you think any of this debate is directed at you personally? What gets into you mornings? or evenings! Look, I had a little beef at you the other day for your comment about self satisfied or whatever it was, which wasn't even really at you, but more at the "system"; end of story. quote: This hurt a little Karen. You asked specifically in your thread for some advice about critiquing free verse. I went to some trouble to clarify what you wanted and to make some suggestions and to find the link to my critiquing guidelines. I didn't "shove" it at you, you asked and I made a suggestion. quote: You're making my point for me Karen. CA needs change. I wouldn't say that your recent posts have been "ignored" would you? Perhaps the "commotion" you refer to is doing some good. I'll say this one more time, (I know I'm saying it but I'm fairly sure most of the CA regulars would feel the same way): 1 I love your conversational style, and your intelligent comments. 2 I love your contribution to CA and think it's one of the best, we need many MORE of you not less. 3 None of what I've said above was directed at you, I'm just debating possibilities for CA. 4 I only said yesterday, was it? that I'd be happy to see you in the CA 24/365 - what more do I have to say for gawd's sake!? C'mon Karen please can you quit with the rant - apart from anything else it ruins my morning pedicure to wake up to this level of hissy fit! ............... Anyway ~sigh~ Back to the Debate: It's quite clear from what Rat and you have just said that this thread is getting too long again and people are missing what's being said. The huge irony is that a lot of what you both complain of is precisely what I complain of. And yes RAT I AM listening ~waving~ even if no-one else is as I personally value the contribution from people like you and Alicat more than that from CA regulars (no disrespect) simply because you bring a "new" view of the place, and you are the very people who should feel comfortable enough to post there. I don't agree with you when you suggest that it's ok to post poems but not to critique. I feel very strongly about that, mainly based upon first hand experience of forums and real life where people were allowed to do that. I have addressed the point at length elsewhere but to try and convince you I'd be happy to cover it again later (just a bit busy now). I think your earlier post in this thread raised some interesting points about tailoring the critique to the person receiving it. Again, in some kind of perfect forum of communication, this would be the ideal. But, lets get real here, even in a real life one to one it's hard enough to achieve that. In a public internet critical analysis forum it's totally impossible, because what you're suggesting is what's already been ruled out (by Ron et al, quite rightly) in CA which is a teaching environment as opposed to a learning one (more later). For such a forum to "work" it's a case of setting out clearly and openly at the head of the forum exactly what a poster can expect from the place - that way if expectations aren't set at an unrealistic level then disappointments will be minimised. Again I'll have to explain more of what I mean about that at a later date. As for Deputy Mods I have no idea what they do in PIP, what their status is etc. Everyone seems to be jumping up and down at the suggestion of introducing them to CA. Perhaps they are the wrong solution. All I do know is that Pete alone can't be expected to do everything that might be needed if any further changes were made along the lines I've been suggesting. More later. (sorry for any typos) M [This message has been edited by moonbeam (10-14-2006 09:06 AM).] |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Darn it, I can’t concentrate on writing with your critiquing point hanging in the air Rat ... The point is that I’m sure we agree that in a teacher pupil relationship it’s most beneficial to try to tailor the teaching to the individual pupil’s needs - which is of course why small class sizes are thought to be better in the UK. The thing is though, as Ron as pointed out, CA isn’t a teaching place. (I don’t know whether you read Ron’s brothel analogy?). It’s simply a circle of people sitting around chucking in their poetic efforts and then chatting about them. In a real life situation this can work quite well as the group is restricted and because there’s eyeball to eyeball contact people tend to behave better than when there isn’t. A pubic internet forum is quite different; self evidently the potential for disruptive influences is high and my own view is that because of this some level of basic expectation and policing has to be established to maintain a “friendly” environment. So here we all are in a circle chucking in poems, with no obligation to comment or critique. Let’s look at that: Self evidently a group where most people want to post poems and receive critique but not give it, won’t work. It slowly dies as the people who are doing the hard and sometimes thankless work of really thinking about other’s poems get fed up and leave. They aren’t replaced either, because people looking into the group from the outside see what is happening and don’t bother to enter. For such a forum to thrive you have to have lively interaction and debate and that means mutual participation - not a one way flow from teacher to pupil. And let’s not get in a state about the word “critique”. In your post you make the good point that people critiquing may be frightened of having their opinions shredded. I make the same point if you read my reply to Alicat above. I happen to agree (again from first hand experience) that it is incredibly important that new critics aren’t subjected to ridicule or made to feel small. That’s where the “rules” and the “mods” that Karen seems to be afraid of come in. And after all what is a critique but saying in simple terms WHY you like or dislike a poem? And Brad said it too up above: quote: Is that really so very onerous? Or maybe it’s just that people just can’t be bothered to read and think about others work. Rat, I think you need to get away from the idea that CA is about some heavyweight tailored teaching experience - it’s not. It’s simply a free ranging discussion about poems - an attempt to make people really think about what their peers are writing, to help both themselves and the poet learn. Above all it should be fun. Finally, addressing your earlier post directly, the one thing you can’t ever expect in such a forum is that people are going to automatically think about you the poet. You enter the forum as a writer granted absolute equality with everyone else there (regardless of ability). Nobody knows you personally. Nobody knows that your favourite dog has just died or that you’ve had one beer to many or that you’re 10 years old. So when you post a poem to receive critical comments expect and demand only one thing: honesty from your reviewers. The level of expertise of critics, the politeness, the brevity, the usefulness of the comment; all these are outwith your control - all you have to do is to take what is useful to you and leave the rest. Obviously as you integrate into the forum balances will change, people will come to know your style and areas of knowledge, but nevertheless it remains fundamental to the working of the forum that posters do not expect. I’ve rambled a bit. Feel free to query, discuss, shout, argue etc etc M |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: Heh! You might regret that Karen!! Moonbeam’s Happiness Manifesto (...er wishlist) 1. Move CA to the workshop section of PIP - (done) 2. Post prominent signposts in PiP where potential new members will see them to direct potential posters to the critical forum. 3. Post prominent sticky or notice at top of forum setting out guidelines for posting which would inter alia include: a Suggested critiquing approach to help new critics b Strong encouragement to say why a poem is liked or disliked, and strong encouragement for the poet to say thank you to critics and to provide some feedback on the comments received c Requirement to post three critiques before posting a second poem and thereafter a strong suggestion that three critiques for each poem posted would be polite d Re-enforcement of PiP rules regarding comments directed at the person rather than the poem e A suggestion that debate within the threads is encouraged but gratuitous adverse comment about others critiques, especially that directed at new or learning critics, is strongly discouraged 4 A zero tolerance policy for any hint at all of personal criticism whether indirect or direct and whether in poems or critiques 5 Posts that repeatedly (more than twice) break the spirit or letter of the guidelines to be gently (in the case of poems) directed to Open, and in the case of comments, deleted and replaced with a respectful message asking the poster to comply with the guidelines 6 More moderators/quasi moderators. No necessity for them to be teachers or poetic experts. But essential for them to be active policemen of the forum guidelines, and for there to be sufficient off board contact between them such that difficult decisions can be shared 7 A real effort to encourage existing members of PiP to participate in CA and to make them feel welcome and their opinions valued 8 The contribution of “critics” valued equally with that of “poets” ......... And if I get really lucky ... 9 Brad’s wife gets hooked on little blue screens 10 A free beer for every one hundred posts in CA 11 Ron takes a long holiday ... that was joke honest!Clear now Karen? M [This message has been edited by moonbeam (10-14-2006 09:07 AM).] |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: Hi Rat, Hi Karen Evening here now. No fortress wall here either, just a nice friendly debate gate ...Take care both of you, and come back soon ... Je suis lonely. Heh. M PS And you Alicat PPS Hope you had a better day Karen. |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
I believe Ratleader/SerenityBlaze Just expressed what I have been trying to say, so I am retiring from this thread. I Don't have the guts to say what the problem is sometimes. Maybe that was my problem. Everytime I mentioned something it was used the wrong way. I am done with this thread. Done. Done. Done. -Juju -Juju -"So you found a girl Who thinks really deep thougts What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silient all these Years, Tori Amos |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Heh. Juju there is no problem. quote: You've said that a least once before! M |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: I'm sorry you feel that way Karen, you asked a question (not rhetorical) and I answered it honestly. I'm not sure what's ridiculous about that, I thought we were having a good discussion. I'm going to try and say the next bit without being inflammatory, but I think it has to be said: The fact is that people in PiP have levelled a lot of pretty direct remarks at CA in the last four weeks: Disgusting behaviour Elitist Exclusive Unwelcoming Fortress-like etc etc And now here I am trying to have a good discussion in an objective way with Brad and you and Alicat and Rat and others, and you label it as an argument and a ridiculous waste of time. I’m doing my best to show that CA needn’t be all those horrible things listed above, and now that doesn’t seem to be acceptable either. ~shrug~ M PS Can’t we discuss here and critique. |
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Ratleader
since 2003-01-23
Posts 7026Visiting Earth on a Guest Pass |
quote: Yeah, like that. A tantrum. Sense of humor is like an athlete's legs -- it's the first thing to go. ~~(¸¸¸¸ºº> ~~(¸¸¸¸ºº> ~~(¸¸ ¸¸ºº> ~~~(¸¸ER¸¸ºº> ______________CENSORED______________ [This message has been edited by Ratleader (10-15-2006 04:07 PM).] |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Er, Rat, which particular "ARGG" were you quoting? Anyway, never mind that. Vous avez- quelque chose compréhensible à dire? M |
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Ratleader
since 2003-01-23
Posts 7026Visiting Earth on a Guest Pass |
Not yewwwww! And really it's ancient history....guess I ought to avoid that kind of archaeology. ~~(¸¸¸¸ºº> ~~(¸¸¸¸ºº> ~~(¸¸ ¸¸ºº> ~~~(¸¸ER¸¸ºº> ______________Ratleader______________ |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Did you ever notice the welcome message here at Passions doesn't say anything about the critical/workshop side of poetry? "Poetry has magic, especially when it comes from the heart. Poetry can touch us, move us, delight us, enlighten us, make us laugh, make us cry, and both soften and enrich our deepest memories. Poems are the ties that bind one stranger to another, often in friendship, sometimes in love, always in understanding. The pipTalk forums are dedicated to poetry, but more importantly, the forums are dedicated to fostering an understanding of the human condition through communication. Our poetry is a vehicle, fueled by imagination, that provides a means of building strong friendships and common goals among a very large, very diverse group of individuals. Young and old, rich and poor, male and female, we come together in appreciation of poetry and understanding. pipTalk celebrates the power of poetry, and the incredible magic of Respect and Tolerance among friends. Our poets are truly changing the world we know, one word at a time." |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
On the other hand the critical side gets mentioned first in the google search-engine: Passions in Poetry "Passions in Poetry Boards include mild critique, heavy critique, teen, adult, spiritual, and archives. Poetry headlines also included. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Ess That's interesting. I of course knew about the PiP intro! I've moaned enough about it already . I hadn't noticed the Google entry though. I guess that kind of bears out what I was asking Ron. Would it be possible to have a direct reflection of the Google message in the intro with maybe a direct link to CA or something. Just thinking aloud here. M |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
That is sort of what I was thinking too. The welcome message expresses the spirit of sharing and enjoying the power of poetry and community, but not really the spirit of a critical side, of working hard to learn and improve, which I think is also a very important part. I think something about the critical/workshop side would represent Passions a bit more completly. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
I'm lifting this out of oblivion mainly for you Bob in case you haven't seen it. From what I've read I think I share your aspirations, but I wonder about the practicality of implementation. This thread was controversial, sometimes acrimonious even, but highlighted some of the problems you might like to think about. M |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Haven't had a chance to look yet, Moonbeam, but I'll take a gander and see what I can glean. Thanks for the reference; I'll try to do it justice. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Haven't had a chance to look yet, Moonbeam, but I'll take a gander and see what I can glean. Thanks for the reference; I'll try to do it justice. I think, though, that I wouldn't want to try to convince people I was trying to improve their poetry. After all, what's that? Many if not most folks are perfectly happy with the poetry they're writing already, and what they want is to be told that they're wonderful. I don't think I can be anybody's judge about personal or even poetic wonderfulness. What I can do is talk about how a poem works in terms of what a fair number of publishing professional poets today would think or say about it. I can probably say if a poem is publishable in its current form or not, and what might be helpful in getting it there. I can't make any claim about absolute judgement or knowledge, and won't. I'm suspicious of anybody who claims they can. I can do my best to offer those things, with the understanding that I'll be wrong a fair amount of the time. I'd be happy to work with other people trying to do the same thing. I need the same thing for my own work. That's all for now, I guess. |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Hi All! I've been sick and missed all of this. What with CA having had its plug pulled, even the best of arguments and intentions have been rendered moot. I'm sorry to see it go. Best, Jimbeaux |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
Moot it is. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Hi Jim. Glad to see you back, I've missed you . Hope the frail vessel is still in one piece.Moot, humm, please don't look so pleased about it Mysteria it upsets me. Moot? Actually, though I think not. Perhaps CA or anything like CA will never be permitted at PiP again, but there are many lessons to be learned from the experience. I, for one, have special reason to regard CA as the best thing Ron and all involved did. I believe that from time to time it was the "best" forum here by a mile. Ron says that PiP is principally a social networking site, a place to chat and make friends. The poetry is secondary and of relatively little importance. The fact is though I can chat and make friends in a zillion places online and off, but for me, in my particular circumstances, CA at one time, provided a vary rare opportunity for me to learn about poetry and become interested in the way poetry works. And there's another way in which it may not be "moot". There are several people who used to post at CA who are now a little rudderless, and who hopefully may fan out and start to offer more detailed comment around the other forums. Perhaps this may effect the way some people in other forums think about poetry - perhaps, and this is my hope, there may gradually be a little less emphasis on social networking and a little more on the medium of communication in its own right. Just a miniscule amount more would be good. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
There will never be less interest in social networking here so you may as well get used to it. That is what made this place what it is. Friendships have been formed and even lives have been changed by what has transpired here. For those who are "rudderless" without a CA forum, this site is probably not the best choice for them because they have missed the point of why this site exists. Grinch said it best just now... I’ve had it with the whole critique argument, it‘s just getting way too serious, I’m going back to just writing and posting for the fun of it. No critiquing and no requests for critique. Life’s too short. Amen... |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
~sigh~ I wonder why people apparently find the idea of treating poetry seriously so incompatible with social networking and making friends. Is it so very threatening to PiP to occasionally have more in depth discussions about poems? That's all I'm suggesting Mike. Why the sudden "might as well get used to it" thrust? Why the sudden all or nothing attitude? I've made many friends here over the years while also treating poetry as a serious art form. All I'm hoping for is just a little more of that in the other forums. Is that so very wrong? Is it a threat to the PiP ethos? Why so vehement Mike? As for "rudderless" - well, if something you've been part of for 10 years suddenly vanishes you can be forgiven I think for feeling a little like that. Whether you like it or not Mike, CA was part of PiP, and for part of the time a very wonderful part. I'm slightly aghast at your apparent suggestion that all those who were at PiP because of CA were somehow here under false pretences. Maybe you didn't mean that. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
M. Ha! My thoughts exactly. I will never understand this either/or thing. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
No, moonbeam, I certainly didn't mean it the way you are taking it. It was no challenge or either/or in my intention. If I came across like that, I apologize. Actually, at the beginning of PIP, there was only one forum. The others came at the requests of poets and from Ron's expansion of the site. Treating poetry seriously is not in conflict with social networking UNLESS the seriousness becomes in conflict with the social part. Apparently that is what happened with CA. In a perfect world, or perfect site, those who want only the social part and are happy to post poems they know are limited, have their place to inter-act and those who want to work on improving their work and receive constructive input from others toward that end would have their area. There's certainly nothing wrong with that and i'm sure that was Ron's thought when he created CA. It would appear, though, that it didn't work out that way and constructiveness gave way to abrasiveness, insults and clashes of personalities. Since that is the exact opposite of PIP's motives, Ron determined it had to go. I hadn't spent that much time in CA but I'll wager that, if I go back and check, Ron gave more than a few subtle and not-so-subtle warnings before closing it. No, I'm not saying that those who were here for CA were rudderless, sir, but if they were here for ONLY CA without understanding why this site was created and respecting those guidelines, they were not in the right place. Apparently that's what happened. No vehemence intended. Sometimes my directness comes out as brusque and I don't realize it or mean it that way. Sorry......... |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Ron never said any such thing. Hell, when these doors first opened, social networking sites hadn't even been invented yet. Even Google was just a gleam in Larry Page's eye. What I said, Rob, was that poetry is secondary to people. Guess what? In my world, everything is secondary to people. I'm sincerely glad you feel CA provided an opportunity to learn about poetry and become interested in the way poetry works. That's a worthy goal, but for me that's not enough. I wanted CA to provide an opportunity to learn respect and tolerance, too. FTR, let me be as clear as possible. Poetry is not simply a vehicle for what you call social networking. If anything, it's the other way around. The friendship created in these forums has spawned a LOT of really great poetry over the years, some just for fun and some as insightful as it was beautiful. It's one of those chicken and egg things, I guess. Bottom line, though, is that you can't have a chicken without the egg. quote: Me, either, Brad. I certainly never wanted an either/or thing. I wanted a forum where we could talk seriously about poetry AND treat people kindly. That's not what we had, though. Instead, we had a forum where a non-conforming poster came in and was treated very unkindly by most of the forum regulars. Again. The either/or conundrum was thrust upon us by people who apparently wanted to talk seriously about poetry so long as it was done the way they wanted it, and damn anyone who might be hurt in the process. The scariest part for me, I think, was that any long time Member seriously thought that was going to continue to fly? |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
And why should they have thought it wasn’t going to fly forever? Very little was ever done in the last year to address the issue of rudeness that kept popping up over and over. I pulled out last fall after it became rather apparent personal attacks, some veiled, others not, and off top, baiting, button pushing posts were going to be allowed to continue and disrupt the forum, that mods and admins were not going to step up and try to keep that sort of thing in check as is routinely done in other forums. Why would anyone expect that learning respect and tolerance were goals when it seemed the opposite was being condoned. Recent examples - a mod called one poster crazy, a poet was allowed to do the same to another poster, a deputy mod referred to a poet’s poem as being drivel. Other examples are there if one takes the trouble to look. This thread was started approximately two and a half years ago. A lot of time and effort went into pointing out the problems in CA and suggesting remedies to address and correct those problems. What action was taken to get CA back on its feet again? As far as I can see, none. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Mike and Ron Thanks for clarifying I think I'm a little sensitive right now. I accept what you both say and thanks for coming back to me. Just to be clear, I believe Ron's decision to close CA was the right one (in fact I think he was extraordinarily patient, I'd have done it a year earlier at least). But even so anything which smacks of other members here at PiP being pleased to see it go riles me somewhat, because you see I don't believe its demise was simply a matter a clash between social networking and seriousness. Of course Ron, I wouldn't suggest that poetry is secondary to people, but I think CA tried to make general chat secondary to discussion about poetry, and I see nothing wrong with that. Nor were out of control personality clashes the malaise, rather they were just a symptom. Perhaps I'm into semantics here, but my reading of the problem is that Ron closed CA because of the outward manifestations of a flawed system. I think what gets to me slightly is any suggestion that the problems of the forum suddenly blew up out of nowhere, and that they all arose because the members couldn't get on with each other, or put poetry before kindness, or didn't understand the PiP ethos etc. The problems arose principally because the forum could not or would not be structured in such a way as to provide clarity as to purpose and administrative input to backup that purpose. I am not saying even that it would have possible to achieve such clarity and backup, but in all the 10 years of its existence it lived with that underlying flaw, and every serious eruption arose from it imo. Ron mentions Monk Frost as an example, and as the final straw. But let's look at that. The poster comes into what is billed as a workshop sits down among us and starts to fire of a stream of epigrams of varying quality. To begin with there is no rudeness and indeed some intelligent commentary. But most reasonable people in a forum tagged as a workshop and as a place to discuss poetry would expect, for such a place to function, a degree of two way communication, or at least the politeness of a thank you or acknowledgement. When simply more epigrams followed, and in the absence of administrative intervention, over a course of weeks the replies became more forthright and eventually ironic, and then sarcastic. In a real life workshop the "participator" would have been shown the door after just a couple of days. And all this was against a background where the expectations of the so called serious posters in CA had not matched the reality of the place for some time, causing frustrations and loss of active support. Personally I think those expectations were reasonable and quite compatible with social networking, but, as you know from this thread, I have been convinced for some time that they could never be met with CA set up as it was. Please don't take this as a personal criticism Ron because I know CA wasn't all your doing and,as I say, it may be that it could never have worked in the PiP environment, but you say you wanted it to promote respect and tolerance as a prime goal, that's a fine aspiration, but I think once you also added the critiquing dimension you really needed to reinforce or modify the PiP rules to give it some chance of prevailing against the natural inclinations of human behaviour. Is walking into a workshop and firing off epigrams respectful? Not in real life it isn't, and as you often say, PiP is a mirror of real life. Anyway I've said all this a thousand times before. CA had to go, but at least let's try to understand why it didn't work, and not simply throw all blame at the inability of members to get on with each other or rudeness to a new poster. Rob [This message has been edited by moonbeam (03-22-2009 06:16 AM).] |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Rob, as you probably know, I would have sent Monk Frost on his way within a few days, as you suggested, if the rule had given me that authority. No, he was no "lost soul" looking for salvation. He was nothing more than a disrupter, for the exact reasons you listed. Even though his motivation became apparent quickly, he was still gently urged to abide by the goals of CA numerous times. Yes, those urgings became more insistent as time went on. What other means did the group have of defending its integrity? Honestly, the only thing I would do different, if I had it to do over, is begin moving sooner. Of course, I can't agree with you that CA needed to be closed. I will always believe it provided a valuable service, and I am certainly not that serious about poetry. Sure, I learned a lot about how not to write and will forever be indebted for that. What I really enjoyed though was the interaction with the other people there, well at least the great majority of the time. But as was pointed out so eloquently by a Pipster who did NOT participate in CA, "it's a moot point now." Pete |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Jennifer, you have my sincere apologies. I didn't know. Which is not an excuse, but rather an admission of culpability, because I certainly should have known. I clearly need to spend more time reading in the poetry forums. quote: Whose purpose, Rob? quote: Why? Are you suggesting that the purpose you spoke of earlier was to promote two-way communication and exchanges of thank-yous? That certainly was never my purpose for CA, Rob, and frankly, I'd be surprised to discover it was yours either. More importantly, it was deliberately never part of the rules or structure. MY purpose for CA, as with all the forums here, was to promote communication in the form of poetry. It's nice when the communication is two-way, and it's wonderful when the poetry is effective and beautiful, but those are resulting benefits not starting-point criteria. Those things can't be forced upon others. You can hold out your hand, but you can't make someone shake it. The most you can do is try to exclude those who refuse. Monk Frost was not a disruption in the forum. He didn't hurt anyone and he didn't stop others from doing what they were there to do. His only crime was not doing what others thought he should. Ultimately, it wasn't the poster's actions that provoked an attack, but rather his lack of actions. Grinch seemed to be the only one willing to accept Monk Frost at face value, and I thank him for that. You're clearly right, though, Rob. Clarity of purpose was obviously missing, and that's my fault. It wasn't for lack of trying, though. As evidenced, I think, by the age and depth of this thread? The failure of Critical Analysis was, indeed, mine, guys. On many different levels. And I suspect, now, my greatest failure was probably being too stubborn to realize earlier that it was beyond my capabilities. I just didn't have what it takes to make it work. |
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Artic Wind Member Rara Avis
since 2007-09-16
Posts 8080Realm of Supernatural |
CA forum is in danger of becoming another Open forum with less emphasis on critical analysis and more emphasis on friendly banter............." This is wrong? Friendliness is a good thing, no? ARCTIC WIND [This message has been edited by Artic Wind (03-22-2009 04:46 PM).] |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
While it's nice of you to apologise to Jenn Ron I can't see how you could have possibly been expected to read in the forum to the extent that would have been necessary to arbitrate with equity all the various machinations. quote: Your purpose of course, and that of the other senior people involved in moderating CA I suppose. But your stated purpose on the tag line was promotion of in depth discussion of what makes poetry work or some such. I appreciate only now from what you've said recently that there's always been the potential for tension between your prime objective for PiP and the aspirations of some people involved with CA. It's been there from the start I think, but to begin with there was a lot of goodwill and effort to make things work, active moderation, and active enthusiastic participants. People get tired, jaded, bored and maybe you got a little more intolerant, the poor mods never changed for years, and I just think the tension or the gap became unsustainable. If your purpose was to simply promote communication in the form of poetry then perhaps you shouldn't have yielded to pressure a couple of years back and moved CA to the workshop forums. It would have been more honest to simply say what you just said, viz: "CA is here for the purpose of promoting social interaction through poetry". Instead, by moving it to workshop you simply reinforced the perception that I'd had from the outset that it was there specifically to offer poets the opportunity to discuss their poems in depth with the aim of improving them. No, obviously Monk Frost wasn't a disruption to your perception of the forum, because in your perception the forum wasn't a workshop or a place where two way discussion was specifically encouraged. In my perception of the forum he was just low level rude, and could quite easily have been asked nicely at any time (as Pete eventually did) to contribute in a more pro-active way. I hear what you say Ron about not wanting to "change" rules, yet would it have even involved a change? Just the other day in another workshop, Balladeer who moderates, gently pointed out to Chops that he shouldn't post an unrelated poem in the workshop, but instead in Open. Just a little latitude on your part could have allowed such flexibility in CA too perhaps. Maybe this all boils down to a misunderstanding, and you accepted my point about clarity. In turn I have to accept the implication from both you and Grinch that sometimes my own very abrasive style of critique has caused problems and probably contributed to you becoming more and more impatient with the antics going on in CA. For that I'll always be sorry, and hopefully I've learned a lot from the experience and will try not to repeat it. Rob |
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Artic Wind Member Rara Avis
since 2007-09-16
Posts 8080Realm of Supernatural |
I have to say though, that there shouldn't be any fear at all that CA was having more friendly discussions, then an actual, deep discussion about the serious topic because some people were being attacked personally by others... Being nice to each other could seriously prevent these from happening. Open poetry just has lots of friendships that were developed. Just hearing that people were getting annoyed by friendships getting in the way with a discussion, got me But I guess some people just get over excited, and believe strongly about their own opinion, which I understand.. ARCTIC WIND |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Sorry Pete, I missed your comments. I don't think you and disagree about much on this. I sometimes think that, not knowing what was going on in the background in the mods forums, I would have far wiser just to keep my mouth closed and go quietly away. But what's done is done. And we are all older, though the jury is still out on wiser I think |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Never said that, Rob.  My purpose -- again -- was to promote communication (I could say "poetry," but I feel just as strongly about prose). Respect and Tolerance is the lubricant that makes that possible, and social interaction is the inevitable side-effect. More succinctly? It doesn't have to be either/or. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Sorry Ron it was late and I got lazy with my phrasing. I understand. |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
And it continues...... Wow I have been here almost 7 years. Wow. -Juju |
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