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Passions in Poetry

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moonbeam
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75 posted 10-13-2006 04:08 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

I do, if it means that somebody steps in to prevent new critics being too badly mauled by existing members (or any members for that matter) we really don't want to dissuade people from having a shot at critiquing.

I'd also like them to be able to deal with "carpet bombing" and "timewasters"; but that's another battle for another day.

M
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76 posted 10-13-2006 04:14 PM       View Profile for Ratleader   Email Ratleader   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ratleader's Home Page   View IP for Ratleader

LOL "carpet bombing" -- great term!

So....maybe the answer would be to limit the number of responses per day in CA, instead of the number of poems you can post.....?

No, I wouldn't seriously suggest that, but the thought did make me pause for a moment, so I thought I'd share the joy.....

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serenity blaze
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77 posted 10-13-2006 05:42 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Well, some of my more conversational replies might be limited to less if I have someone's e mail.

But my style, even in writing, is conversational, and I think I have made some attempt to tone that down. But if someone offers me advice or reading material I find agreeable, I will still feel compelled to politely thank them or otherwise comment.

And Deputy Mods? I think I'd have to shrug off the place altogether.

I'm not sure what you guys want, and you called my uncertainty sensitivity. I toned it down when I found my generally friendly tone to be deemed unseemly and distracting, but I don't know how to be anyone else.

So, here I am, just being me, Karen of no ell, and if I post something there, then my critiques get critique, and if I don't post my stuff there first, then I'm obviously not "serious" about improving my poetry.

Is there any way to make you guys happy? That's not a rhetorical question either.

I find myself confounded by what it is you actually want, short of Pete throwing up his hands and saying "Here, Moonbeam. Here, Essorant. The forum is YOURS."

How long do you think folks would stick around if you pounce on every comment, every smilie, and anything said in the spirit of fun?

Or have I misunderstood you yet again?

I mean, c'mon, I went in there and pitched a few balls, and I'm beginning to suspect the bat is being swung at ME.

I've gone in there before too, previous to this recent commotion and found my work ignored, my critque seemed to be not received very well and so I just shrugged and went back to open.

And now that I am here, I'm finding templates being shoved under my nose, and it seems my entire personality is under the scope too.

If you want people to utilize the forum, you should make it user friendly. I'm not saying go back to "how wonderful" and applause applause applause, but as of right now?

The general consensus of the informal survey I have taken is that no one wants any part of it--and it isn't because of me, or the quality of posts, it is because of the rigid formality and the convenience of application of rules. (Um, there was some fun exchange between Ess and another member, but that's acceptable, whereas if two newer members tried that, I'm quite certain we'd be smacked with a metaphorical discipline ruler.

And now, if I am reading correctly, you want Deputy Moderators as well.

Gee, I wonder who might be nominated for THAT?

Or was that snide and sarcastic, and is such banter only allowed amongst yourselves?

sighing here because I AM in earnest--you seem to want more participation in CA--but can't seem to digest that the problem lies in the stifling atmosphere.

I think that part of the problem there is that some members have already self-appointed themselves as moderators, teachers, or instructors, and any disagreement is met with derisive sarcasm.

I set my sarcasm aside to type this, and I ask you, quite sincerely, if you don't think I might have a small point that the very things you criticize about the forum, you belie by the examples of your own behavior.

I find myself coming to the conclusion that I am in a no win situation.

Every opinion, every post, every letter of every word I type will be feeding time at the zoo.

And I am truly dismayed, because for a while there, I had some hope.

Silly me.

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78 posted 10-13-2006 06:56 PM       View Profile for Ratleader   Email Ratleader   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ratleader's Home Page   View IP for Ratleader

As far as I can tell, I’m more in Karen’s camp than anyone’s on this, though I certainly appreciate the points – and frustrations – of both sides in this…..so I guess I’m mostly talking to her right now.

We all need to remember that it’s voluntary, fer cryin’ out loud! Strictures and structures are for people we’ve hired for a job – they take the bribe and do things exactly like we tell ‘em….but voluntary implies freedom to do as much or as little as a particular individual wants to do, and that’s how I think it should be.

I for one LIKE some “more conversational” replies – while it’s good to make a comment that you think will help the writer “build” the poem if they want to, I just can’t see anything wrong with telling someone you like their poem as it stands, including merely telling them you enjoyed it, if you don’t see something you feel strongly enough about, to make a critical comment.

That’s doubly true for the Deputy Mod suggestion – I doubt that there’s anybody in this discussion with any uncertainty about where I’d come down on that one, and since in my own experience the deputy mod has virtually no voice in the running of a forum, it would be pretty pointless to have them helping out in a forum where many of the general rules for posting don’t necessarily apply anyway. In other words I think they’d be in the way, and whoever took it on would almost certainly get sick of it and quit.

Karen, about that friendly tone you mentioned…..you’re absolutely right. I’ve worked successfully with a number of poets here, but only one-on-one (and not just "newbies" -- some of the names would probably make you think I was making it up). While I’ve avoided CA partly for personal reasons, I’ve also stayed out because of the tone I’ve seen in too many responses during the two or three false-starts I’ve made at helping out in there. That friendly approach, toward someone who just put a slice of his guts on the table for your inspection, is absolutely necessary.

Posting without critiqueing…..why the heck not???? The very reason a person posts something to CA is that they’re feeling unsure of themselves or of their current strength as a writer. It seems two or three notches past silly, to require someone with that kind of uncertainty, to expose even more of their innards by taking the risk that they’ll showcase in a critique some of the very things they’re most afraid they don’t know.

Also…little side note to Karen here…you just saw in another thread, an example of my own oversensitivity…I took a little nip out of you not because something you said was too much, but because I’ve been rubbed raw myself, by having certain people “lay in wait,”  as a friend once put it, to stomp on things I might say, because they didn’t like my personality. In fact, I don’t come in The Alley much, because some of those people hang around here, and I’m feeling QUITE uneasy about participating in this thread on account of it. So…I very much do understand your feeling there, and I’m sorry I added to it a while ago. Email Shmeemail, I gave offense right out where everybody could see it -- thought I ought to lead by example, and apologize in exactly the same highly visible way  -- so I did!

Anybody who doesn't like it -- heh-heh-heh...send me an email.


Having a “small point”…..NO…you have a very large point, and it’s NOT on top of your head. I think you are saying things that have needed to be said….I also think that the next sound you hear is likely to be an echo from a fortress wall – but that’s just my feeling, and I’ve grown quite used to having those ignored in PiP – earlier in this very thread, for instance -- so I may not even notice.


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moonbeam
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79 posted 10-14-2006 04:29 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Karen

For heaven's sake.  Why do you think any of this debate is directed at you personally?  

What gets into you mornings?  or evenings!

Look, I had a little beef at you the other day for your comment about self satisfied or whatever it was, which wasn't even really at you, but more at the "system"; end of story.

quote:
And now that I am here, I'm finding templates being shoved under my nose


This hurt a little Karen.  You asked specifically in your thread for some advice about critiquing free verse.  I went to some trouble to clarify what you wanted and to make some suggestions and to find the link to my critiquing guidelines.  I didn't "shove" it at you, you asked and I made a suggestion.

quote:
I've gone in there before too, previous to this recent commotion and found my work ignored, my critique seemed to be not received very well and so I just shrugged and went back to open.


You're making my point for me Karen.  CA needs change.  I wouldn't say that your recent posts have been "ignored" would you?  Perhaps the "commotion" you refer to is doing some good.

I'll say this one more time, (I know I'm saying it but I'm fairly sure most of the CA regulars would feel the same way):

1   I love your conversational style, and your intelligent comments.

2   I love your contribution to CA and think it's one of the best, we need many MORE of you not less.

3   None of what I've said above was directed at you, I'm just debating possibilities for CA.

4   I only said yesterday, was it? that I'd be happy to see you in the CA 24/365 - what more do I have to say for gawd's sake!?

C'mon Karen please can you quit with the rant - apart from anything else it ruins my morning pedicure to wake up to this level of hissy fit!                      

...............

Anyway ~sigh~ Back to the Debate:

It's quite clear from what Rat and you have just said that this thread is getting too long again and people are missing what's being said.

The huge irony is that a lot of what you both complain of is precisely what I complain of.

And yes RAT I AM listening ~waving~ even if no-one else is as I personally value the contribution from people like you and Alicat more than that from CA regulars (no disrespect) simply because you bring a "new" view of the place, and you are the very people who should feel comfortable enough to post there.

I don't agree with you when you suggest that it's ok to post poems but not to critique.  I feel very strongly about that, mainly based upon first hand experience of forums and real life where people were allowed to do that.  I have addressed the point at length elsewhere but to try and convince you I'd be happy to cover it again later (just a bit busy now).

I think your earlier post in this thread raised some interesting points about tailoring the critique to the person receiving it.  Again, in some kind of perfect forum of communication, this would be the ideal.  But, lets get real here, even in a real life one to one it's hard enough to achieve that.  In a public internet critical analysis forum it's totally impossible, because what you're suggesting is what's already been ruled out (by Ron et al, quite rightly) in CA which is a teaching environment as opposed to a learning one (more later).  For such a forum to "work" it's a case of setting out clearly and openly at the head of the forum exactly what a poster can expect from the place - that way if expectations aren't set at an unrealistic level then disappointments will be minimised.

Again I'll have to explain more of what I mean about that at a later date.

As for Deputy Mods I have no idea what they do in PIP, what their status is etc.  Everyone seems to be jumping up and down at the suggestion of introducing them to CA. Perhaps they are the wrong solution.

All I do know is that Pete alone can't be expected to do everything that might be needed if any further changes were made along the lines I've been suggesting.

More later. (sorry for any typos)

M

[This message has been edited by moonbeam (10-14-2006 09:06 AM).]

moonbeam
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80 posted 10-14-2006 05:35 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Darn it, I can’t concentrate on writing with your critiquing point hanging in the air Rat ...

The point is that I’m sure we agree that in a teacher pupil relationship it’s most beneficial to try to tailor the teaching to the individual pupil’s needs - which is of course why small class sizes are thought to be better in the UK.  

The thing is though, as Ron as pointed out, CA isn’t a teaching place.  (I don’t know whether you read Ron’s brothel analogy?).  It’s simply a circle of people sitting around chucking in their poetic efforts and then chatting about them.

In a real life situation this can work quite well as the group is restricted and because there’s eyeball to eyeball contact people tend to behave better than when there isn’t.

A pubic internet forum is quite different; self evidently the potential for disruptive influences is high and my own view is that because of this some level of basic expectation and policing has to be established to maintain a “friendly” environment.

So here we all are in a circle chucking in poems, with no obligation to comment or critique.  Let’s look at that:

Self evidently a group where most people want to post poems and receive critique but not give it, won’t work.  It slowly dies as the people who are doing the hard and sometimes thankless work of really thinking about other’s poems get fed up and leave.  They aren’t replaced either, because people looking into the group from the outside see what is happening and don’t bother to enter.  For such a forum to thrive you have to have lively interaction and debate and that means mutual participation - not a one way flow from teacher to pupil.

And let’s not get in a state about the word “critique”.

In your post you make the good point that people critiquing may be frightened of having their opinions shredded.  I make the same point if you read my reply to Alicat above.  I happen to agree (again from first hand experience) that it is incredibly important that new critics aren’t subjected to ridicule or made to feel small.  That’s where the “rules” and the “mods” that Karen seems to be afraid of come in.

And after all what is a critique but saying in simple terms WHY you like or dislike a poem? And Brad said it too up above:

quote:
Oh, I think telling someone what you were thinking when you read their poem is more useful then simply telling them you liked it.

You don't have to say line 4 is awkward. You can say, "Hey, this reminded me of . . ." or "This popped into my head, I don't know why." kind of stuff too.


Is that really so very onerous?  Or maybe it’s just that people just can’t be bothered to read and think about others work.

Rat, I think you need to get away from the idea that CA is about some heavyweight tailored teaching experience - it’s not.  It’s simply a free ranging discussion about poems - an attempt to make people really think about what their peers are writing, to help both themselves and the poet learn.  Above all it should be fun.  

Finally, addressing your earlier post directly, the one thing you can’t ever expect in such a forum is that people are going to automatically think about you the poet.  You enter the forum as a writer granted absolute equality with everyone else there (regardless of ability).  Nobody knows you personally.  Nobody knows that your favourite dog has just died or that you’ve had one beer to many or that you’re 10 years old.  

So when you post a poem to receive critical comments expect and demand only one thing: honesty from your reviewers.  The level of expertise of critics, the politeness, the brevity, the usefulness of the comment; all these are outwith your control - all you have to do is to take what is useful to you and leave the rest.

Obviously as you integrate into the forum balances will change, people will come to know your style and areas of knowledge, but nevertheless it remains fundamental to the working of the forum that posters do not expect.

I’ve rambled a bit.  Feel free to query, discuss, shout, argue etc etc

M
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81 posted 10-14-2006 06:25 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

quote:
Is there any way to make you guys happy? That's not a rhetorical question either.


Heh!  You might regret that Karen!!

Moonbeam’s Happiness Manifesto (...er wishlist)

1.   Move CA to the workshop section of PIP - (done)

2.   Post prominent signposts in PiP where potential new members will see them to direct potential posters to the critical forum.

3.   Post prominent sticky or notice at top of forum setting out guidelines for posting which would inter alia include:

a   Suggested critiquing approach to help new critics

b   Strong encouragement to say why a poem is liked or disliked, and strong encouragement for the poet to say thank you to critics and to provide some feedback on the comments received

c   Requirement to post three critiques before posting a second poem and thereafter a strong suggestion that three critiques for each poem posted would be polite

d   Re-enforcement of PiP rules regarding comments directed at the person rather than the poem

e   A suggestion that debate within the threads is encouraged but gratuitous adverse comment about others critiques, especially that directed at new or learning critics, is strongly discouraged

4   A zero tolerance policy for any hint at all of personal criticism whether indirect or direct and whether in poems or critiques

5   Posts that repeatedly (more than twice) break the spirit or letter of the guidelines to be gently (in the case of poems) directed to Open, and in the case of comments, deleted and replaced with a respectful message asking the poster to comply with the guidelines  

6   More moderators/quasi moderators.  No necessity for them to be teachers or poetic experts.  But essential for them to be active policemen of the forum guidelines, and for there to be sufficient off board contact between them such that difficult decisions can be shared

7   A real effort to encourage existing members of PiP to participate in CA and to make them feel welcome and their opinions valued

8   The contribution of “critics” valued equally with that of “poets”

.........

And if I get really lucky ...

9   Brad’s wife gets hooked on little blue screens

10 A free beer for every one hundred posts in CA

11 Ron takes a long holiday     ... that was joke honest!


Clear now Karen?

M

[This message has been edited by moonbeam (10-14-2006 09:07 AM).]

moonbeam
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82 posted 10-14-2006 04:27 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

quote:
I also think that the next sound you hear is likely to be an echo from a fortress wall – but that’s just my feeling, and I’ve grown quite used to having those ignored in PiP – earlier in this very thread, for instance -- so I may not even notice.


Hi Rat, Hi Karen

Evening here now.  No fortress wall here either, just a nice friendly debate gate ...

Take care both of you, and come back soon ...

Je suis lonely.  Heh.

M

PS And you Alicat

PPS Hope you had a better day Karen.
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83 posted 10-14-2006 04:42 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

I believe Ratleader/SerenityBlaze Just expressed what I have been trying to say, so I am retiring from this thread.

I Don't have the guts to say what the problem is sometimes.  Maybe that was my problem.  Everytime I mentioned something it was used the wrong way.  I am done with this thread.  Done. Done. Done.

-Juju

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thougts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silient all these Years, Tori Amos
moonbeam
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84 posted 10-14-2006 05:03 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Heh.  Juju there is no problem.

quote:
so I am retiring from this thread.


You've said that a least once before!

M
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85 posted 10-15-2006 06:21 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

quote:
Perhaps if we all stopped arguing and started doing, this stuff would not happen. (So smack me if I go back to that ridiculous thread, instead of critiquing poetry, as we should be, k?


I'm sorry you feel that way Karen, you asked a question (not rhetorical) and I answered it honestly.  I'm not sure what's ridiculous about that, I thought we were having a good discussion.

I'm going to try and say the next bit without being inflammatory, but I think it has to be said:

The fact is that people in PiP have levelled a lot of pretty direct remarks at CA in the last four weeks:

Disgusting behaviour
Elitist
Exclusive
Unwelcoming
Fortress-like

etc etc

And now here I am trying to have a good discussion in an objective way with Brad and you and Alicat and Rat and others, and you label it as an argument and a ridiculous waste of time.

I’m doing my best to show that CA needn’t be all those horrible things listed above, and now that doesn’t seem to be acceptable either. ~shrug~

M

PS Can’t we discuss here and critique.
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86 posted 10-15-2006 03:27 PM       View Profile for Ratleader   Email Ratleader   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ratleader's Home Page   View IP for Ratleader


quote:
AARGH!!!


Yeah, like that.

A tantrum.

Sense of humor is like an athlete's legs -- it's the first thing to go.

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[This message has been edited by Ratleader (10-15-2006 04:07 PM).]

moonbeam
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87 posted 10-15-2006 04:59 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Er, Rat, which particular "ARGG" were you quoting?

Anyway, never mind that. Vous avez- quelque chose compréhensible à dire?

M
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88 posted 10-15-2006 07:46 PM       View Profile for Ratleader   Email Ratleader   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ratleader's Home Page   View IP for Ratleader

Not yewwwww!

And really it's ancient history....guess I ought to avoid that kind of archaeology.

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89 posted 10-15-2006 11:28 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Did you ever notice the welcome message here at Passions doesn't say anything about the critical/workshop side of poetry?

"Poetry has magic, especially when it comes from the heart.

Poetry can touch us, move us, delight us, enlighten us, make us laugh, make us cry, and both soften and enrich our deepest memories. Poems are the ties that bind one stranger to another, often in friendship, sometimes in love, always in understanding.

The pipTalk forums are dedicated to poetry, but more importantly, the forums are dedicated to fostering an understanding of the human condition through communication. Our poetry is a vehicle, fueled by imagination, that provides a means of building strong friendships and common goals among a very large, very diverse group of individuals. Young and old, rich and poor, male and female, we come together in appreciation of poetry and understanding.

pipTalk celebrates the power of poetry, and the incredible magic of Respect and Tolerance among friends. Our poets are truly changing the world we know, one word at a time."


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90 posted 10-15-2006 11:41 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

On the other hand the critical side gets mentioned first in the google search-engine:

Passions in Poetry
"Passions in Poetry Boards include mild critique, heavy critique, teen, adult, spiritual, and archives. Poetry headlines also included.

    

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91 posted 10-16-2006 03:27 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Ess

That's interesting.

I of course knew about the PiP intro!  I've moaned enough about it already .  

I hadn't noticed the Google entry though.

I guess that kind of bears out what I was asking Ron.  Would it be possible to have a direct reflection of the Google message in the intro with maybe a direct link to CA or something.

Just thinking aloud here.

M
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92 posted 10-16-2006 12:57 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

That is sort of what I was thinking too.  The welcome message expresses the spirit of sharing and enjoying the power of poetry and community, but not really the spirit of a critical side, of working hard to learn and improve, which I think is also a very important part.  I think something about the critical/workshop side would represent Passions a bit more completly.  

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93 posted 03-18-2009 07:04 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

I'm lifting this out of oblivion mainly for you Bob in case you haven't seen it.

From what I've read I think I share your aspirations, but I wonder about the practicality of implementation.  This thread was controversial, sometimes acrimonious even, but highlighted some of the problems you might like to think about.

M
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94 posted 03-19-2009 03:05 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Haven't had a chance to look yet, Moonbeam, but I'll take a gander and see what I can glean.  Thanks for the reference; I'll try to do it justice.  
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95 posted 03-19-2009 03:32 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Haven't had a chance to look yet, Moonbeam, but I'll take a gander and see what I can glean.  Thanks for the reference; I'll try to do it justice.  

     I think, though, that I wouldn't want to try to convince people I was trying to improve their poetry.  After all, what's that?  Many if not most folks are perfectly happy with the poetry they're writing already, and what they want is to be told that they're wonderful.

     I don't think I can be anybody's judge about personal or even poetic wonderfulness.  What I can do is talk about how a poem works in terms of what a fair number of publishing professional poets today would think or say about it.  I can probably say if a poem is publishable in its current form or not, and what might be helpful in getting it there.  I can't make any claim about absolute judgement or knowledge, and won't.  I'm suspicious of anybody who claims they can.

     I can do my best to offer those things, with the understanding that I'll be wrong a fair amount of the time.  I'd be happy to work with other people trying to do the same thing.  I need the same thing for my own work.  

     That's all for now, I guess.

      



      
oceanvu2
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Santa Monica, California, USA


96 posted 03-21-2009 12:11 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Hi All!  I've been sick and missed all of this.  What with CA having had its plug pulled, even the best of arguments and intentions have been rendered moot.   I'm sorry to see it go.

Best, Jimbeaux

Mysteria
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97 posted 03-21-2009 01:32 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

Moot it is.   
moonbeam
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98 posted 03-21-2009 05:09 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Hi Jim.  Glad to see you back, I've missed you   .  Hope the frail vessel is still in one piece.

Moot, humm, please don't look so pleased about it Mysteria it upsets me.   Moot? Actually, though I think not.  Perhaps CA or anything like CA will never be permitted at PiP again, but there are many lessons to be learned from the experience.  

I, for one, have special reason to regard CA as the best thing Ron and all involved did.  I believe that from time to time it was the "best" forum here by a mile.  Ron says that PiP is principally a social networking site, a place to chat and make friends.  The poetry is secondary and of relatively little importance.  

The fact is though I can chat and make friends in a zillion places online and off, but for me, in my particular circumstances, CA at one time, provided a vary rare opportunity for me to learn about poetry and become interested in the way poetry works.

And there's another way in which it may not be "moot".  There are several people who used to post at CA who are now a little rudderless, and who hopefully may fan out and start to offer more detailed comment around the other forums.  Perhaps this may effect the way some people in other forums think about poetry - perhaps, and this is my hope, there may gradually be a little less emphasis on social networking and a little more on the medium of communication in its own right.  Just a miniscule amount more would be good.  
Balladeer
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99 posted 03-21-2009 06:22 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

There will never be less interest in social networking here so you may as well get used to it. That is what made this place what it is. Friendships have been formed and even lives have been changed by what has transpired here. For those who are "rudderless" without a CA forum, this site is probably not the best choice for them because they have missed the point of why this site exists.

Grinch said it best just now...

I’ve had it with the whole critique argument, it‘s just getting way too serious, I’m going back to just writing and posting for the fun of it. No critiquing and no requests for critique.

Life’s too short.


Amen...
 
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