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Brad
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since 08-20-99
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Jejudo, South Korea


50 posted 10-11-2006 04:15 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Why does this feel like deja vu all over again?

M,

I do know we tried most of your suggestions and for a moment it did work -- at least from my standpoint.

But it's very hard to keep it up and, I don't know, still maintain decent family relations and/or your sanity.

Honestly, you should see my wife's face when she sees these blue screens pop up on the screen.

But that's okay too. I encourage you to keep trying here. Those moments do happen from time to time and they are a treasure to remember.

But what you want is exclusive. I know you deny it, but that's the inevitable result of what you're trying to do. Exclusive isn't always a bad thing, but it's going to lead to people feeling excluded (They are a prickly, sensitive lot, these people who try to write) and that means you'll get people who misunderstand the intent.

I've always tried to think of CA as a coffee shop conversation after a good movie, but what happens when a new guy drops in, wants to talk, but hasn't seen the movie?

What happens when a person who is already 'in' simply detests one of these newbies?

What happens when a person feels slighted? What happens when a person who feels slighted slights the other guy?

And on and on and on . . .

But that's okay too. I do hope you fine that treasure moment. It was a fun ride.
  
Advice: E-mail as much as you can.

Oh wait, I think you're already doing that.

Oh, and never get near a computer screen after more than one drink.
Juju
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In your dreams


51 posted 10-11-2006 04:35 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Useful?

Usefulness is something relative.  I say you could critique someone to the moon and that might still not be as effective as telling someone you appreciated their poem.  

You know If Ron decides to make these changes, That is totally fine.  All I know is I kind of like the freedom.  

And Being known as a poet of little words, I can tell you, so much can be said and done in very little words.  

-Juju

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thougts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silient all these Years, Tori Amos

Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


52 posted 10-11-2006 04:48 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Oh, I think telling someone what you were thinking when you read their poem is more useful then simply telling them you liked it.

You don't have to say line 4 is awkward. You can say, "Hey, this reminded me of . . ." or "This popped into my head, I don't know why." kind of stuff too.
moonbeam
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53 posted 10-11-2006 04:58 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

quote:
Usefulness is something relative.  I say you could critique someone to the moon and that might still not be as effective as telling someone you appreciated their poem.


Yes, quite, as long as you tell them WHY you appreciated it, trying to be as precise as possible.

quote:
Oh, I think telling someone what you were thinking when you read their poem is more useful then simply telling them you liked it.

You don't have to say line 4 is awkward. You can say, "Hey, this reminded me of . . ." or "This popped into my head, I don't know why." kind of stuff too.


There ya go Juju - Brad can read my mind (as always).

M

moonbeam
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54 posted 10-11-2006 05:21 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam


Why does this feel like deja vu all over again?

>>> Because it is.

I do know we tried most of your suggestions and for a moment it did work -- at least from my standpoint.

>>> Yep, “for a moment” I understand.  And “very hard” I understand that too.  You’d need more moderators or quasi-mods.  More work, more time etc etc.  Ron would have to modify his views on why mods are there too, although I have a feeling his last post on that subject wasn’t representative of his “real” views.

But it's very hard to keep it up and, I don't know, still maintain decent family relations and/or your sanity.

>>>Tell me about it.  But “Many hands ... etc etc”

Honestly, you should see my wife's face when she sees these blue screens pop up on the screen.

>>>Lol.

But that's okay too. I encourage you to keep trying here. Those moments do happen from time to time and they are a treasure to remember.

>>>I know that too.  I remember a couple or two

But what you want is exclusive. I know you deny it, but that's the inevitable result of what you're trying to do.

>>> ~sigh~ Yes Brad, of course it’s exclusive in the sense that it might exclude people who had no intent “to participate”.

Exclusive isn't always a bad thing, but it's going to lead to people feeling excluded (They are a prickly, sensitive lot, these people who try to write) and that means you'll get people who misunderstand the intent.

>>>Brad the evidence (elsewhere) doesn’t really bear that out.  Even here at PIP after, what at least 3 years of “Ron’s way” in CA (no offence Ron), you’ve got Karen sensitive about her reception in CA and suggesting that there are many people in PIP who would post in CA but are intimidated.  So much for inclusiveness.  I think a lot of the problem resides not with requiring people to honour the spirit of a workshop environment but with this rather uneasy marriage between the main purpose of PIP and the ostensible purpose of a critical analysis forum.  It causes frictions and frictions cause sensitivities.  I feel sure that if everyone knew what was expected of them when they post in CA, that would help to make existing participants less resentful and more inclined to be welcoming - less snippy.  

I've always tried to think of CA as a coffee shop conversation after a good movie, but what happens when a new guy drops in, wants to talk, but hasn't seen the movie?

>>>Good analogy.  Precisely why some clear signposts should be on show.  “Go HERE to see what’s expected of you” and, even better, “HERE for a quick synopsis of the movie”.

What happens when a person who is already 'in' simply detests one of these newbies?

>>>The mods (who must indeed be present and be police - despite Ron’s reservations) quickly step in.

What happens when a person feels slighted? What happens when a person who feels slighted slights the other guy?

>>>Yep Brad.  You’re asking what happens in life.  It gets sorted.

But that's okay too. I do hope you fine that treasure moment. It was a fun ride.
  
>>>I like to strive.  It’s the point.  

Advice: E-mail as much as you can.

Oh wait, I think you're already doing that.

>>>Indeed.  “Teaching” as you’ve already pointed out, doesn’t work in a workshop forum.  I discovered that the hard way a while back.

Oh, and never get near a computer screen after more than one drink

>>>Moi!  More than one Glenlivet?!  Jamais.  Heh.

Merci pour this Brad.  Vous puttez the smile back on my face.

M
serenity blaze
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55 posted 10-11-2006 06:17 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

sweetie, nobody's got me sensitive about anything.

I'm just trying to tone down my usual behavior because it seemed to be an affront to others, and I had to admit, it's rather difficult to tell when I'm serious when I'm not holding a .38.

(I really DO have other stuff to think about.)



My sensitivity of late is directly related to menopause, anxiety, post traumatic stress and a medical condition that renders me, um, almost allergic to my own chemistry. Go figger. Too much info, huh?

Oh well, that's me all over.

And that's enough bouncing for today.

I'm tard.

I'm gonna call in my valium refill. Ta.
moonbeam
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56 posted 10-12-2006 04:21 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Karen

quote:
sweetie, nobody's got me sensitive about anything.


Hunnie-bunch, there you are being sensitive about not being sensitive.    

Karen the serious point (and the one I need to make to make my argument - heh), is that you did complain of feeling unwelcome in CA and you did say that others in PIP were too intimidated to post in CA.  

Moreover, there have been destructive sensitivities between CA and Open.  All I'm saying is that Ron's desirably open brothel or rosy inclusiveness ain't been all it's cracked up to be for a while.  

There are enough good poets in other parts of PIP to provide a stimulating and continuous flow of discussion in CA more or less indefinitely, even if they posted at a rate of only one post per poet per month or something.  Where have they been if it's been working so well?

M
serenity blaze
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57 posted 10-12-2006 11:27 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Someday, perhaps, but not now, I will tell my grandkids, (hopefully) and the rest of the world about what life is like behind the iron curtain. Then you perhaps you might have some inkling of what's left of my sanity here behind the glass curtain.

DO YOU KNOW SOMEONE STOLE MY IDENTITY? MINE!?! As if life wasn't ridiculous enough, somebody decided to take the rags of life off of my freaking back, and now I can't get a social security card, AND medical bills were made in my name toward medicaid and now I'm supposed to somehow provide proof of citizen ship, in a place where ALL VITAL RECORDS WENT UNDER WATER--and HOMELAND SECURITY is dictating I gather forms that do not exist--from an institution that no longer exists, while I am quite honestly sitting here with a .38, waiting for the lastest crackhead who threatened me and mine to make bail--glad only that the only transportation he has are his feet, since the vehicle that was stolen was confiscated, so I figger I have nothing to fear but a "walk by" shooting, 'cause this dummy hasn't held a job in thiry years. For cryin' out loud, I am afraid to go to HOME DEPOT, lest I be rounded up and sent to Mexico with the rest of of the illegals--but yeah, I am quivering in fear, worried that I'll get my feelings hurt in CA.

ARE YOU FREAKING MAD, MAN???

(Do I spell that with one "ell" or two?)

My sensitivity was toward others. They don't know me, so they have no idea if I'm just there out of part of the dastardly plan to ruin that HUGE party that was going on in CA. But now, I LIKE it there, so put up with me.

And yanno, I'm not even mad at YOU. Curious, yes. I have to wonder what is going on in someone's life that they feel compelled to run willy nilly through online forums, picking fights and making mental muscles.

OH.

Do you live in New Orleans too?
moonbeam
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58 posted 10-12-2006 11:58 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

quote:
My sensitivity was toward others. They don't know me, so they have no idea if I'm just there out of part of the dastardly plan to ruin that HUGE party that was going on in CA. But now, I LIKE it there, so put up with me.

And yanno, I'm not even mad at YOU. Curious, yes. I have to wonder what is going on in someone's life that they feel compelled to run willy nilly through online forums, picking fights and making mental muscles.


Er, ~scratches head~, have I missed something?  "Picking fights" "running willy nilly" "mental muscles"?  

Maybe you were right Brad ~deep sigh~.

Perhaps this is all a waste of time.

M

PS Karen, the last thing I intented to do in this post was annoy or upset you.  Mea culpa.  I was just trying to make a teeny point to Messrs Ronald and Grincho.

Mea culpa mea culpa tres sorry.

Simply put, watch my lips closely:  There is nothing I'd like better than for you to post in CA every minute of every day, the world would be a better place for it.  Truly.

Peace.

PS Oh yes, and the delightful poet called Maree, and Christopher, and Balladeer ...

and Martie,

oh yes, Alicia too.

.
.
.
.
.
.
.

and, er, Marge ...
.
.
.
.
there I said it ...
serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


59 posted 10-12-2006 12:07 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

My apologies too.

(Guess who didn't get her Valium refilled.)



And I am watching the clock for Nurse Ratchet (my husband's new nickname) to wake up so I can have my other meds.

And btw, if you actually have a four page critiqe on my last post there, I would love to see it--posted or via e mail.

thank you

I think I am over myself now.

(This one was easy, mb--last week I threw dirty dishes out the back door--wish I were kidding--sigh)
moonbeam
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60 posted 10-12-2006 01:42 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

np Karen, sorry to hear about your woes,

Anyway it was worth reading your post just for this:



an image that would have been mightily useful over the last few weeks, and might again yet I guess.

M

"one ell"
moonbeam
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61 posted 10-12-2006 01:45 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

On the critty thingy - I was just teasing Brad, but I'm up for a four page forensic on one of yours, er, poems I mean.  Gimme a day or two, or three.

M
serenity blaze
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62 posted 10-12-2006 02:02 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Well, I just posted something confounding me just now.



And I may be hitting you regularly on poems of a similar theme, so...um, have at it.

I'm considering inclusion of some of this stuff in chapbook printing--a little something for the survivors of ourselves.

My very own basketball diary--without the basketball. Or the diary. Or Leonardo DiCaprio.

But seriously, I would appreciate your input.

I ain't askeered of you.
Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


63 posted 10-12-2006 02:18 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I think the next best step may be formalizing the guideline for writing a good critique.  Moonbeam did a very good job at starting a guideline here  If we worked on this and completed it, would Ron be willing to give it an official standing in CA, so people have an outline or reference to help them write a critique?
moonbeam
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64 posted 10-12-2006 03:34 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Ty Ess but I still think it was a bit long and also badly in need of some mention of scansion.  Not a topic I'm comfortable with.  

Volunteering?

M
Alicat
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Coastal Texas


65 posted 10-12-2006 08:31 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

I think something has been missing from this discussion which I came across today.  The focus of unpolished works in CA is to help the writer by critiquing the work in question, not critiquing critiques to the work in question.  Responses should always be about the poem, not about what others think about the poem.  This grants the writer a bit more clarity when trying to polish their work by the recommendations of those who read and offered critiques, rather than ferreting out the wheat from the chaff of responses to responses.

But then, I'm simple like that.
Juju
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In your dreams


66 posted 10-12-2006 09:00 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

(;

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thougts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silient all these Years, Tori Amos

moonbeam
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67 posted 10-13-2006 05:19 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

quote:
I think something has been missing from this discussion which I came across today.  The focus of unpolished works in CA is to help the writer by critiquing the work in question, not critiquing critiques to the work in question.  Responses should always be about the poem, not about what others think about the poem.  This grants the writer a bit more clarity when trying to polish their work by the recommendations of those who read and offered critiques, rather than ferreting out the wheat from the chaff of responses to responses.


GOOD GRIEF!!!!

Heh!  Now we're rockin' !!

Beautifully and elegantly stated Alicat.

You’ve highlighted the main difference between most serious critique and workshop boards, and for that matter, most offline workshops, and CA.

If you look through the voluminous discussions in recent weeks in CA you’ll see that I have several times expressed my reservations about CA effectively being a playground in which anyone can say anything (within PIP rules) about other people’s critiques.

My head, and logic, and indeed experience, tell me that what you say is absolutely right.  My heart sorta says well let’s give the free for all approach a chance at least.  I’m also swayed by the fact, of which you may not be aware, that both Ron and Pete, and presumably most of the other senior mods, are absolutely against imposing a restriction that rules out responses to others’ critiques.  

Ron has always seen CA a as a free discussion board where its quite legitimate to say that you don’t agree with the critique of another poster.

Personally I think this is an incredibly high risk strategy in a writing forum.  There are quite a few reasons why it’s a bad idea to allow such a freedom not least of which is the fact that if a poet posts a poem in CA he/she is presumably wanting critique and glad to have it.  It’s an invitation.

It’s quite another matter for a novice critic to pluck up the courage to post a comment to try and help that poet only to have his/her opinion questioned or even rubbished by another critic.  A recipe for resentments and tit-for-tat.  Also a recipe for frightening people away from CA as far as critiquing is concerned.

My own view is that a laissez faire approach allowing critiques of the critiques could work but only with VERY strong and fair and active moderation of the board, something that Pete is quite obviously not able to do alone even if the rules permitted it.  Which they don’t.

Since I’ve been here my views have modified slightly in that some other boards I’ve been on can end up being a bit sterile and academic if absolutely no extraneous discussion is allowed at all in the threads.  So I wondered whether a compromise whereby discussion and comment on others replies could be allowed but only provided that no negative comments at all were made either directly or indirectly.  

In other words if you can’t say something in agreement with somebody else’s crit then just shut up and let the poet decide which opinion to use instead of embarking on an in-thread argument.

You have no idea how very grateful I am that you raised this Ali.

Many thanks.

Ron, anyone?  Comments?

M
Essorant
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68 posted 10-13-2006 11:34 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant


"Ty Ess but I still think it was a bit long and also badly in need of some mention of scansion.  Not a topic I'm comfortable with.
Volunteering?     "

  



Yes, I was hoping we could begin a thread specifically for working on the guidelines collaberatively, so all members could contribute as much as they are able and according to what they know best.  Do you think that is a good idea?  

moonbeam
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69 posted 10-13-2006 12:03 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

quote:
Yes, I was hoping we could begin a thread specifically for working on the guidelines collaberatively, so all members could contribute as much as they are able and according to what they know best.  Do you think that is a good idea?


Yes.
Essorant
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70 posted 10-13-2006 12:33 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

By the way, I strongly disagree with limiting comments to only the poem or trying to stipulate that a comment about something raised in a critique should never be negative!--I think both of those are contrary to what makes critical analysis.  There is much evidence to show, including the past few weeks in Critical Analysis, opening discussions and opinionwrestles about critical points raised anywhere in the thread, surely gives the forum more critical activity in respect to both critiquing poems and discussing and debating things that are raised among critiques.  I think both are necessary to allow for diversity of critical activity and sharing opinions, judgements, an overall critical analysis.


moonbeam
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71 posted 10-13-2006 12:40 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Like I say Ess I'm becoming ambivalent about that point.

I think it COULD be made to work but I think it can also lead to potential for a good deal more upset than if comments were limited to poems or to positives.

The secret IMO is rigorous moderating.

I really do think that there is a serious chance of frightening new critics away otherwise.

It can be worked out though.

M
serenity blaze
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72 posted 10-13-2006 01:49 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Okay.

But as long as ya'll know ya'll ain't the boss 'o me.
moonbeam
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73 posted 10-13-2006 03:13 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

quote:
But as long as ya'll know ya'll ain't the boss 'o me.


Never ever Mistress Karen
Essorant
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74 posted 10-13-2006 03:19 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"The secret IMO is rigorous moderating."

I somewhat agree.  Although I wouldn't say "rigorous" moderating instead of just more moderating.  I think the forum could benefit if it were opened to Deputy Moderators.  A Deputy moderator would help everything out as much as he can, and take it on as a bit of a commitment for a short period of time.  That would both help Pete and help the members in the forum as well.  I also think it may help maintain the criticalness of activity a bit better.  That in combination with a formal Guideline to help write a good critique I think could make a long-lasting improvement to the forum.  

Does anyone else support the idea of Deputy Moderators in CA?


 
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