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moonbeam
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25 posted 10-06-2006 05:21 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

quote:
I didn't ask the question to imply anything.


I know you didn't - I didn't mean to imply that you did - sorry.

I just used the opportunity to make a point. Sorry again.

M
Grinch
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since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


26 posted 10-06-2006 05:26 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

Moonbeam

When it comes down to it there's no difference between your statement wanting to learn and mine a willing student.A willing student has to want to learn and anybody wanting to learn is, by definition, a willing student.

All you need to do now is work out what you need to ensure you get both. I'll give you a clue, it's half the things you believe you need to be a good teacher.  

Karen,

quote:
So carry on the good fight.


It's not quite a fight, both Moonbeam and I are still holding our handbags.  

[This message has been edited by Grinch (10-06-2006 06:43 PM).]

Juju
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27 posted 10-06-2006 05:39 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

But I think, that question is a very important one.  You can be oh, that is a horrible question.  It is your choice.  I don't care that much.  I say that to myself to humble my self.  To think about my answer and understand the situation.  It slows me down.

A even better question is,  What have my best teachers done.  What was my worst teacher like. The only reason I use teachers is it is there profession to get there point across to students year after year.  I am not using a metaphor. Just a real life example of some one.  It is not a superiority thing.  When have I said I was a better poet?  I don’t.
How do I know the poet is not using some exotic form of poetry?      

I am not going to argue this point any farther.  I made it and I am out.  If you have a question fine.  

-Juju


-<>-~-<>-~-<>-  
*    Juju     *
-<>-~-<>-~-<>-

serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
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28 posted 10-06-2006 05:41 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Handbags can make a dandy weapon, yanno.

That cliche' visual of the little old lady decking the boyscout with one ain't a cliche' for nuthin'.

*laughing*
Not A Poet
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29 posted 10-06-2006 09:10 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

Yeah, especially if it has something heavy in it, like a couple rolls of half-dollars or maybe even a handgun "ohboy:
moonbeam
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30 posted 10-07-2006 02:34 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

quote:
When it comes down to it there's no difference between your statement wanting to learn and mine a willing student.A willing student has to want to learn and anybody wanting to learn is, by definition, a willing student.


Yes Grinch I know, I was using them synonymously.  I was making two points:

1. In a real life one to one situation a really good teacher should be able to encourage an unwilling pupil to be willing, and

2. In a public internet forum it isn’t a practical proposition to do that, so the “student” (bad word for CA I know) must be willing in the first place.

That’s all I was saying.


quote:
Handbags can make a dandy weapon, yanno.


Karen

You’re obviously wayyy too young to remember Mrs Thatcher!

Heh.

M
serenity blaze
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31 posted 10-07-2006 02:38 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Mrs. Who?



Ron
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32 posted 10-07-2006 10:43 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
2. In a public internet forum it isn’t a practical proposition to do that, so the “student” (bad word for CA I know) must be willing in the first place.

I disagree. Strenuously!
cynicsRus
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since 06-06-2003
Posts 599
So Cal So Cool!


33 posted 10-07-2006 11:07 AM       View Profile for cynicsRus   Email cynicsRus   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit cynicsRus's Home Page   View IP for cynicsRus

quote:
I'm pretty sure I want to move CA down into the same section with the Workshops.


Ron,
Wanted to say, I really think that is a good idea and would go a long way in helping more clearly define the purpose of CA.  

I take back what I said in the final post of the primary thread, re: “nothing will have been accomplished.”

I wish to say regarding that same post, that an apology was not necessary, nor what I was going for. My main interest was and is, attempting to elicit clarity. You helped clarify a few things for me in that post. I thank you, and I apologize for, all too often failing at my own attempts to do the same.
If I may repeat as well: Thanks for the opportunity to vent.

Sid

Note: I had said, that would be my final post to that thread, that's why I brought this here.




If you must carp: Carpe diem!
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Juju
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In your dreams


34 posted 10-07-2006 01:10 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

I don't think it is a matter of clarifying rules.

-Juju

-<>-~-<>-~-<>-  
*    Juju     *
-<>-~-<>-~-<>-

Essorant
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35 posted 10-07-2006 01:46 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

What do you mean by "willing student"?

Some of the most important steps of learning and school in my life weren't determined by whether I was "willing" to learn or willing to go to school.  Instead whether or not I was willing I needed to be exposed to learning things and knowledge, and things that are important and needed, whether I liked it or not!  

And looking back, I am glad that was part of it.  If the learning and hard work was determined ONLY by whether I was "willing" at the time, I know for sure I had not learned or done much hard work at all.  

It is no different for me when critiquing a poem.  I think the best learners are also lovers, but you need to meet someone or something before you may actually develop an affection for either the person or the subject.  Whether someone is willing to learn the truth or not, we should always be willing to introduce it.  Once the person actually meets the truth and understands it better, he may be much more willing to have a relationship with it  



[This message has been edited by Essorant (10-07-2006 05:23 PM).]

Grinch
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Whoville


36 posted 10-07-2006 03:22 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
What do you mean by "willing student"?


I mean someone who doesn't seek knowledge because they have to or are forced to but someone who seeks knowledge because they want to.

Moonbeam,

quote:
1. In a real life one to one situation a really good teacher should be able to encourage an unwilling pupil to be willing, and

2. In a public internet forum it isn’t a practical proposition to do that, so the “student” (bad word for CA I know) must be willing in the first place.


I think we both agree that the first is valid, where we differ is that I believe the second, to someone who wants to teach, is a cop out, that's a small part of the job of being a teacher - the easy part at that. If all you want to do is teach willing students you can revise your list to just "subject knowledge" all the others are redundant.

Personally I'd prefer the bigger challenge of turning one unwilling student into a willing one - in fact I'll do you a deal - you leave the unwilling to me and I'll supply you a steady stream of ready to teach students.
Brad
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since 08-20-99
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Jejudo, South Korea


37 posted 10-07-2006 05:04 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Reading through this, I'm confused. The original intent of CA was never to be a 'teaching forum'. Maybe that's what happened or maybe that's what seemed to happen, but the intent was not a teacher/student relationship, those in the know sharing with those who don't.

The premise was to discuss what we mutually know, to share opinions, facts, research, whatever with others and then talk about it.

Each poem was a trigger for that.

How well that was actually accomplished, I'll leave for others to decide, but once you understand that calling a poem 'good' or 'bad', while necessary, was never really what it was all about to begin with.

What makes a poem 'good' or a poem 'bad'? Why does this work in meter or not? Why don't cliches work very well? Or do they? Is concrete better than abstract or vice versa?

The list of questions go on and on.

Given that most people have no real interest in such questions, the forum was always supposed to be small.

I know the confusion between being critical and critical analysis is always ever present, but in a real sense, there need be no teachers present or if you ask these questions, you're already a teacher.

It's really just about doing it.

Or if I can mangle my Shakespeare:

"Thou art [already] a scolar, Horatio. Speek to it."
Essorant
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Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


38 posted 10-07-2006 06:45 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Grinch

I tell thee goodness must be taught
whether students like it or not!
Brad
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since 08-20-99
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39 posted 10-07-2006 06:46 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Ahh, the imperative, the imperative!!

Did anybody else notice that people seem to get hot under the collar the moment the word, 'don't' or something similar is used?

What's all the hubub about?

Juju
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since 12-29-2003
Posts 3353
In your dreams


40 posted 10-07-2006 09:12 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Yeah, I am not sure if any one understood what I was trying to say.  I used the teaching as an example as a way to reach out and communicate. I in no way meant it in a teacher/student relationship.  

A teacher/student relationship requires social status differences.  While letting your self be the teacher or student is a choice.  I wasn't speaking of the relationship, I was speaking of the act of being the good teacher.

-<>-~-<>-~-<>-  
*    Juju     *
-<>-~-<>-~-<>-

serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


41 posted 10-07-2006 09:29 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Brad:

quote:
Did anybody else notice that people seem to get hot under the collar the moment the word, 'don't' or something similar is used?



'Don't' doesn't bother me as much as 'should'. 'Should' lays somebody else's opinion of morals/duty on me and ices it with guilt. I hate when "they" do that.

("They" bug the hell outta me.)

It's good to see you around again too, btw. Don't run off like that on me. You should stay on top of this stuff. *laughing*
Brad
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42 posted 10-07-2006 10:34 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

There are many things I should be doing these days.



Danny's doing fine by the way.

One of these days, you should explain why everyone is so sure that an infant looks like you. I can kinda see it now, but c'mon, right after they are born?

Essorant
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43 posted 10-08-2006 11:47 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

There are noun and adjective forms of the word should in Old English:

Scyld "guilt"

Scyldig "guilty"

A Norn and Valkyrie also has a Norse equivelent of the word as a name: Skuld


moonbeam
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44 posted 10-11-2006 09:57 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Grinch (and Ron)

Here I am again.

First off, in the few days I’ve been away I see that Ron has moved CA.  I think that was a very good idea indeed.  It may go a long way towards addressing some of the “complaints” I had.

However ... (there’s always a but)

Grinch said:

quote:
Personally I'd prefer the bigger challenge of turning one unwilling student into a willing one - in fact I'll do you a deal - you leave the unwilling to me ...


As Brad said, CA isn’t a teaching forum as such.  Personally I’ve always seen it as more of a workshop forum, which doesn’t imply so much of a one-way flow of knowledge.

I think that distinction Grinch is fundamental to seeing why I am right about this and you and Ron are wrong   .

To contribute meaningfully in a workshop forum is actually more demanding than in a mere teaching environment.   In the latter the pupil can simply sit there and absorb information, in the former everyone is equal.  They really are.  If you enter an online workshop you are granted, by default, equal status (regardless of your knowledge), and if you contribute poems and critiques to the best of your ability then that status remains and the workshop “works”.  So far so good ...

however, like it or not, quite a few people enter online workshops with either no idea of why they have done so, or no intention of participating in two-way exchanges.  It’s not so much that they are, as you put it, “unwilling pupils”, more that they aren’t pupils or potential participants at all.  

The point that perhaps you haven’t grasped (forgive me if I’m wrong), and that I suspect Ron has grasped but doesn’t seem to care about, is that these “maverick” posts do actually do positive harm to the chances of the forum “raising its game”.  (I’ve been over the precise reasons as to why this is the case already but if you want me to restate then I will).

You offer me a deal.  It’s a bit one sided (unfair on you) because for my part I have the pleasure of simply interacting with willing workshoppers.  You on the other hand have, what I suspect is, the impossible task of persuading people who came to CA with no intention of participating in a workshop to participate.  

I still think that multiple postings of poems without a critique contribution should be removed or moved to Open with a very polite note.

And I still think one line critiques without any effort to say WHY should be subject to a polite direction to critiquing guidelines and on repetition polite deletion.  

Ron’s argument that the poster of the poem should be allowed to determine the uselessness or otherwise of such critiques addresses a different issue entirely.  In my view there is an overriding duty on the moderators of the forum to ensure that the face presented to the outside world is not one that will dissuade serious poets and critics.  That is a duty that is owed to all the other people who are prepared to invest their time in making the workshop work.  And no, lest I’m accused again of elitism, that does NOT mean a clique or a standard or a bar.  It just means a polite note to those posters who clearly have no intention of contributing.

So here’s the deal Grinch, you do as you seem to want to and persuade, to take a random sample from recent history,

william foos,
Master666, and
mrmojorisin5908

to participate actively in the forum for a few weeks, and in return I’ll admit defeat and accept that non-participators can in fact be “converted” to contributors.

If you fail however I shall expect you to support my next rant at Ron.  Heh.  

M

Juju
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45 posted 10-11-2006 10:21 AM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

I don't think a poem in ca should be moved to another forum if there is no one answering them.  I am pretty sure that would be kind of mean.  Just because no one has replied to someone’s poem in while doesn't mean someone wont.  It usually takes a month when I post poems in that forum for them to be analyzed.  I don't like the Idea if "no one replies to your poem it will be removed from this forum."  I don't believe  I will express my reasoning,  it is self evident in that statement.

-Juju


-Juju

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thougts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silient all these Years, Tori Amos

moonbeam
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46 posted 10-11-2006 10:54 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

~sigh~

quote:
I don't think a poem in ca should be moved to another forum if there is no one answering them.  I am pretty sure that would be kind of mean.


It wouldn’t be just mean.

It would be mean, and also counterproductive.  It would mitigate against a thriving critical forum.

Did I say anything about moving a poem to another forum if nobody was answering it?

I don’t think I did.  

M
stargal
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47 posted 10-11-2006 11:31 AM       View Profile for stargal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for stargal

Okay, I just want to see if I’ve got your intent correct on this one moonbeam, and forgive me for being dense about this cause I am very dense  

Are you suggesting that if someone posts a poem in CA and doesn’t take the time to critique more then one line replies, or none at all, that their poem should be removed since they didn’t participate in critiquing?

Just wanted to add, the online workshops you are talking about usually go down hill fast when there is a required amount of replies you have to make for each post.

I know of six workshops that require, for every poem you post, 3-6 replies on other poems. The problem that they are dealing with, at the moment, is in requiring replies they receive such remarks, ”I loved your poem, it has nice flow”, instead of in-depth replies that you are looking for. The reason that their having this trouble is everyone wants to get rid of their required replies so that they can post more poems.

I find that pip is doing just fine as it is, sure, it has a few replies like that in CA but for the most part it is more advanced in the “good” replies then other workshops.



"I will love the light for it shows me the way, yet I will endure the darkness for it shows me the stars." - Og Mandino            @-->---
Juju
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In your dreams


48 posted 10-11-2006 11:39 AM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

"I still think that multiple postings of poems without a critique contribution should be removed or moved to Open with a very polite note."

-Maybe the poet doesn't want to critique. I may have miss read yours, but this I don't like either.  

"And I still think one line critiques without any effort to say WHY should be subject to a polite direction to critiquing guidelines and on repetition polite deletion. "

-Once again, What if the person admires the poem, but doesn't feel like making critique. I don't like that either.

"sigh"

Yeah anomonapia!

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thougts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silient all these Years, Tori Amos

moonbeam
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49 posted 10-11-2006 03:29 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

StarGal

quote:
Are you suggesting that if someone posts a poem in CA and doesn’t take the time to critique more then one line replies, or none at all, that their poem should be removed since they didn’t participate in critiquing?


You have to go back to what I happen believe the “point” of CA is.  It’s a learning forum, I prefer to think of it as a workshop, rather akin to an offline workshop where everyone sits in a circle and each person reads a poem and then all the group discuss it, each person putting forward their view of the poem in turn.  In my view there are immense benefits to this mutual exchange as it encourages people to think about writing other than their own and in my experiece usually benefits both poet and critic (as poet) alike.

The point is, that without that mutuality, that giving of your thoughts on other’s work as well as the taking of people’s thoughts on your work, a learning forum like CA will gradually stagnate.  The givers of thought gradually become disillusioned and drift away, the comments that do remain become of low quality, potential poets looking in from the outside see this and see no point in posting their work, and the cycle of deterioration continues.

So back to your question.  It’s a matter of degree.  My own view is that a newcomer should perhaps be given the chance to post one poem and receive comments.  But yes after that there should indeed be a compulsion to critique others before posting another.

quote:
Just wanted to add, the online workshops you are talking about usually go down hill fast when there is a required amount of replies you have to make for each post.

I know of six workshops that require, for every poem you post, 3-6 replies on other poems. The problem that they are dealing with, at the moment, is in requiring replies they receive such remarks, ”I loved your poem, it has nice flow”, instead of in-depth replies that you are looking for. The reason that their having this trouble is everyone wants to get rid of their required replies so that they can post more poems.


And I know of several that work just fine with this criteria.  The problem isn’t the rule, it’s the way it’s administered.  At the end of the day, as Ron has said recently, “you can lead a horse to water ...”.  Someone who is going to abuse the spirit of a workshop forum is always gonna do so no matter what you do.  It’s how you deal with it and how that action is perceived by potential “punters” or, er, “clients” to use Ron’s dubious analogy.

quote:
I find that pip is doing just fine as it is


Well I’m happy that you do.  Most of PIP is great.  Up till a short while ago though, CA was a wasted opportunity, a dishonesty and frankly a mess IMO.  Ron’s made a change for the better, though it still has a way to go IMO.

Juju

quote:
-Maybe the poet doesn't want to critique. I may have miss read yours, but this I don't like either.


If the poet isn’t prepared to critique then, with respect, what the hell is he/she doing in the CRITICAL ANALYSIS forum?

quote:
-Once again, What if the person admires the poem, but doesn't feel like making critique. I don't like that either.


If a person admires a poem but doesn’t have anything useful to contribute as to WHY he/she likes it then he/she should either say nothing or else e-mail the poet.  

Juju, my views on what CA should be are set out above in my reply to StarGal.

M
 
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