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Philadelphia Records Its 290th Murder For 2006

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LeeJ
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since 06-19-2003
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0 posted 09-26-2006 12:37 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Philadelphia has now recorded it's 290th murder for this year so far.

and so the result http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=local&id=4596950  

People are frantic...the other day, a woman's child was killed
http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=local&id=4596915

I don't know when, people are going to wake up and realize...until we put the criminals behind bars, there is not one gun law that will detere violence and murders.  

The criminals will still acquire guns, underground and now even more expensive, and a lucrative business for anyone selling them underground....

It will be the honest people who adhere to gun laws, not the criminals...get the criminals off the streets, and we'll be doing something. That to me, is the answer.  

Do you think a criminal is going to march up to his local police department and hand over their guns?  I don't think so. Do you think criminals care you you make a law that one can purchase one gun a month??????  

We as a community are going to have to build many many more prisons, that should be, horrible places to go...

....and hound our judges who sentence these criminals (who are a menace to society), to jail for a very, very long time!

If you break the law there should be strict consequences to fear.....I'm talking murders, people who rob stores at gun point, child molesters....any crime committed with a gun or knife or weapon that takes the life of another.  If you are guilty of criminal assult with intent, then you belong in prison.  

How many of us have said, "What could they be thinking" after we hear our judges serving up ridiculous sentences? I wonder if they are parents, and think of how they would feel if their children were victimized.  They, the judges have a responsiblity to society, to get these criminals off the streets.

How many repeated offenders are out on the street?

How many of these repeated offenders had parents that were not educated, living on welfare....

How many cops have to have their lives taken before judges get these criminals off the streets.  

Until the gangs are broken up, and criminals are put away...there is no gun law that will keep our streets and children and neighborhoods safe.  

Our country needs to realize the importance of real education...education Helps to keep citizens law abiding...realizing the effects their actions have on others.  

Education also, teaches the student, the importance of abilities, potentials that are open to them...and not to become dependent upon welfare...self gratification in reaching goals, confidence in our laws, and respect for oneself, which will glow respect for the lives of others.

We need to hound our judges, to do their jobs and get these murders off the street, children and adults alike...anyone who takes the life of another, must be held accountable for their actions.  

There is no fear of consequences for our actions in this world today, we have become a world of pitiful excuses for the criminal, which in turn slaps the victim right in the face.

I'd really like to pay my condolences to anyone who has ever been a victim of crime and apologize for our country allowing that criminal back out on the streets.  

I'm sorry our laws do not defend the victims of our nation...but the rights of the criminals.  Then... adding insult to injury, they can go to jail, and gain a college degree on our tax money??????  Where is the justice in that? In work out rooms, tiled showers, libraries....and programs of all sorts????
I'd like to know your feelings on this issue.

thanks so much for allowing me to vent
I hope I inflicted no insult to anyone...

and please feel free to educate me with your thoughts....and/or comments...
  

PhaerieChild
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1 posted 09-26-2006 05:07 PM       View Profile for PhaerieChild   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for PhaerieChild

There's a distinction for ya. I can't wait to read the tourist brochures for that one. It's pretty sad that the "city of brotherly love" (gag) can't live up to it's name.
Balladeer
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2 posted 09-26-2006 06:12 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Man, don't even get me started, LeeJ. I agree with you 1000%. In so many ways our jury system is such a complete joke. Somebody forgot along the way that the main object was supposed to be determining who was guilty and punishing them.

We as a community are going to have to build many many more prisons, that should be, horrible places to go...

I agree again and if you feel that way about criminals what do you feel about prisons where terrorists go? Just curious...
Grinch
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3 posted 09-26-2006 06:16 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

LeeJ

quote:
How many of these repeated offenders had parents that were not educated, living on welfare


quote:
Our country needs to realize the importance of real education...education Helps to keep citizens law abiding...realizing the effects their actions have on others.


quote:
Then... adding insult to injury, they can go to jail, and gain a college degree on our tax money


Maybe your country has realised the importance of education and is targeting your tax dollars where it would do most good, by educating offenders.

As far as gun control goes I think the request for change in this case is reasonable, as it stands anyone can purchase as many guns as they like and then re-sell them with minimal controls in place. What the article suggests is that the guns are then used in crimes in surrounding states. While I agree that this legislation wouldn't stop illegally imported weapons getting into criminal hands it would stem the flow of legally purchased guns destined for illegal use.

I do agree that the penalties for serious crime are not at present a sufficient deterrent and that judges should be given clear guidelines that stricter penalties should be handed down for serious crimes.
LeeJ
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4 posted 09-27-2006 06:50 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Deer:  Yes, totally agree, now if we could only raise awareness & educate those who belieive that gun control is the answer....

PhaerieChild

thanks for your comment, sad, isn't the word for it...in my book, it's an insult to our intellegence and law abiding citizens.

Hey Grinch

Good Morning
quote:
Maybe your country has realised the importance of education and is targeting your tax dollars where it would do most good, by educating offenders.

Grinch, we're taking about educating people who are a menace to society, it doesn't work...people who would shoot pregnant woman, pistal whip them for money...people who rape and/or moleste children, and kill them...yours & my children, people who would pistal whip the elderly for $10.00 to cop a fix...people who rob efficency stores/gas stations at gun point...and shoot people working there, even children.  We're talking about Gang members who care nothing about anyone who gets in the way of their bullets... we're talking
the absolute most frightening mean and uneducated people of society here, and people out there "really believe" they can be rehabilitated or controlled by gun laws? Grinch, I don't believe for one second that they can be educated, let alone rehabilitated?  It has to come from the time they're born.

Just some of my Thoughts.....
  
You cannot rehabilitate an uneducated criminal who is strung out on drugs, or hungers with the thirst for youthful flesh, or gets off on taking someone's life in a brutal way.  Rehabilitate?  I think not!  

When I speak of education, I mean educating poverty stricken families to encourage them to educated their children from birth to stay in school, teach them morals and respect for life...respect for themselves...

We need to get rid of these agencies that go into correctional institutions, thinking these repeated offenders can be rehabilitated, putting them back on the street, again, and again, to rob, to murder, rape, steal....prisioners...correctional facilities do not work...and if we'd take all that federally funded money and build bigger prisions that will house these people for the rest of their lives, you take them off the streets, you get their guns away from them. Now your doing something constructive to prevent crime, and protect society.  They do not fit into society.  They are a menace and a threat to society.  

Gun laws will do nothing to protect us from these criminals...It's a quick fix that people really believe will work and it always becomes policital around voting time...

Do you believe, a criminal is going to go to a gun shop and legally purchase a gun?  People like you and me, will do so, and we will adhear to any gun law proposed...why?  Because we are law abiding citizens...Crimimals are NOT law abiding citizens, if they were, they wouldn't be called criminals...they have no respect nor care for abiding by any laws...to them, anything goes, no matter how, where and when...

So, what you do with gun control is control those that can be controlled.  Those who already respect the law and abide by it.  You or me....

Criminals are going to purchase guns underground & off the streets from other criminals.  Think about it, do you really believe a law prohibiting the sale of more then one gun a month is going to keep murderers down?  

The only thing gun laws will accomplish is provide a more lucritive business for underground gun salesmen (the criminals).  

You can go out into our nation and take everyone's guns you can find...but the criminals will still own guns, and obtain them...b/c they don't care about the laws...they are law breakers...and will do anything to purchase a gun off the street, from other criminals...the flow of underground guns cannot be controlled.    

If you start busting the men who are selling the guns illegally, and put them away for good, then your doing something.  Then you go after the criminals....now that is a start.  Hold them just as responsible as the man that bought the guns from him to rob, kill, steal, rape.

What we need to do, is tackle the problem at the root of the problem...The criminals...put them away, and put them away for good.  

We're very lucky, we live in our middle class areas or higher.  We have no idea what is really going on.
feel the high they get off of murder...

Until criminals and the mentally incompetent people who do not and will not fit into society are put away somewhere for good, society will continue to suffer the consequences.  Would you want a gang moving into your area...how bout hard core drug dealers...selling drugs on your street corner, murdering kids b/c they can't pay for their drugs, gang wars and shooting all during the course of the night?

You'd think by now, we'd learn.  Unfortunately, when we loose a loved one to these criminals, we tend to educate ourselves and find out through these sad circumstances, what our judicial system does Not accomplish to protect American Citizens.  

Sheesh, talk about war on terror? How can we even begin to fight a war on terror, when we are over run with free criminals?  Think about it?

I consider myself a law abiding citizen...and feel no pity for anyone who does not possess respect for rules, the law, or human life....I feel very sorry for those who have been violated by criminals and will be effected for the rest of their lives.  What about them, do they receive free counseling, rehabilitation?  What about children who are raped by these animals...and yeah, they are animals.  

How would you feel if Charles Manson was released?  Same issue...look how many times criminals are repeated offenders and out walking the streets again and again.

One more thing...I have a friend whose son was a private investigator...undercover.  Do you have any idea, how much money is spent, the time involved, to stake out crime, so they can arrest these criminals...only to have judges release them, or give them very little time in jail.  

This undercover police officer said..."I'm sick and tired of wasting the tax payers money, my time, putting my life on the line, to gain evidence against these criminals, only to have them get off on a miss-demeaner, or to have the judges set them fee.  After all the taxpayers money was spent to catch these guys? Weeks, months, years of undercover survellance?  

He got out, and is now walking a beat, until retirement, he's fed up...he's had police brothers killed and he says, until the people of this country understand and do what's right for society, he's not going to put his life on the line any longer.  He's got a wife and kids.  Can you blame him?  

I don't know why people do not talk to police officers and find out their views, they are certainly more educated about this issue then we all are...???  

Are you aware of the fact, that murders are to, repeated offenders?  In and out of jail?  

I am SO trying to raise awareness here, that there is no gun law that is going to bring crime down...why, these criminals are laughing at us...with these silly laws that govern and are supposed to protect our society.

thank you so much for the opportunity to vent.  I suppose this hits close to home for me, cuz my son's a cop and the stories are unbelievable, so much so, ya have ta wonder sometimes, Is this the United States we're living in, our home?






[This message has been edited by LeeJ (09-27-2006 11:29 AM).]

icebox
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5 posted 09-27-2006 11:29 AM       View Profile for icebox   Email icebox   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for icebox

I do not wish to get into an argument, but this statement (beyond the opinion of what is reasonable):

"As far as gun control goes I think the request for change in this case is reasonable, as it stands anyone can purchase as many guns as they like and then re-sell them with minimal controls in place."

...is simply a gross mis-statement of fact.

Local Rebel
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6 posted 09-27-2006 05:35 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

What has been the efficacy of mandatory sentencing of drug offenders in ending America's illegal drug problem?

Is it more important to eliminate the environments that foster criminality or to punish criminals?

Would you rather prevent your murder or have your murder avenged?
Grinch
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7 posted 09-27-2006 06:33 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
a gross mis-statement of fact.

http://www.ceasefirepa.org/gun_traffic.htm


quote:
22% of guns used in Crime nationally that were traced by the ATF come from multiple handgun sales.
51% of traced Crime guns with obliterated serial numbers come from multiple handgun sales.
Guns were used in over 400 homicides in Pennsylvania.
81% of Crime guns in Pittsburgh and 76% of Crime guns recovered in Philadelphia were originally purchased in Pennsylvania. This suggests we are not doing enough to prevent handgun trafficking within our borders.

As far as gun control goes I think the request for change in this case is reasonable, as it stands anyone can purchase as many guns as they like and then re-sell them with minimal controls in place.
Ron
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8 posted 09-27-2006 08:49 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I don't believe for one second that they can be educated, let alone rehabilitated?  It has to come from the time they're born ...

I consider myself a law abiding citizen...and feel no pity for anyone who does not possess respect for rules, the law, or human life

I'm curious, Lee, if that means you've never broken a single law in your entire life? Not even a traffic ticket? Or perhaps exceeded the speed limit but didn't get caught? I certainly don't want details, but I do wonder if you're laying claim to a perfect record.

Assuming that your answer is that you're not perfect, could you also tell us if you believe your infraction (and we don't need to know what it was) should have been punishable by life imprisonment?


icebox
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9 posted 09-27-2006 10:18 PM       View Profile for icebox   Email icebox   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for icebox

“As far as gun control goes I think the request for change in this case is reasonable, as it stands anyone can purchase as many guns as they like and then re-sell them with minimal controls in place.”

Change to what?  The actions you describe already are serious violations of state and federal laws.  

Are you talking about taking action against criminals or about taking rights away from law abiding citizens, and turning them into criminals with the stroke of a pen?

Or, do you simply support the personal power politics of Joshua Horwitz  and Michael  Beard?

“22% of guns used in Crime nationally that were traced by the ATF come from multiple handgun sales.  51% of traced Crime guns with obliterated serial numbers come from multiple handgun sales.”

If you believe that bit of fiction from CeaseFire, then you should at least consider the reality that if in fact serial numbers had been obliterated, then any trace of provenance is impossible, unless of course you believe in the mythology of ballistic fingerprinting.  Just an aside, defacing a weapons serial number also is a serious crime.

If you think it is so easy to make multiple gun purchases LEGALLY from a federally licensed dealer without any consequences, then I suggest you try it, either in Pennsylvania, or New Jersey, or New York, or Ohio (a few of the neighboring states) and see what happens.

Catch and release law enforcement and the criminals who pass through the legal systems via the tender mercies of deluded judges, are the real problems.
Balladeer
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10 posted 09-27-2006 11:25 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Catch and release law enforcement and the criminals who pass through the legal systems via the tender mercies of deluded judges, are the real problems.

100% right, icebox.

Is it more important to eliminate the environments that foster criminality or to punish criminals?

LR, the statement by icebox is one of the environments that foster criminality.
LeeJ
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11 posted 09-28-2006 07:32 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Good Morning

and thanks to you all for your feedback on this issue.  

Icebox and Deer I'm with you both all the way on this one...

Again...gun laws "are" adheared to by law abiding citizens.  They are not and will never be adheared to by criminals.

No matter how many gun laws are and will be in place, nothing will stop a criminal who is looking for his next fix or...looking to rape a child or keep him from raping a woman and killing her so he won't be identified.

Gun laws will not protect our children, or keep criminals from stealing our children and selling them into 3rd world prostitution rings.  Gun laws will not keep the drug cartels from selling drugs and killing those who buy drugs and don't pay up.    

Ron, of course I've broken laws such as speeding (2 traffic tickets in my lifetime) and no, I don't deem myself to be perfect. And actually quit embarrassed about it and

Yes, absolutely I did wrong, and paid for my actions Ron, as it should be...and will say in all honesty, if I murder (take someone's life, or harm another in any way, then I am not safe or a productive member of society, and deserve to go to prision for the rest of my life.

Do I speed, I try my darnest not to...and will say, most of the time, no I don't, but if my eyes were afixed to my speed domitor all the time, I couldn't see where I was going.     I'm certain, that the needle goes over the speed limit from time to time Ron.  I will say though, I at my age, really dislike speeding.  

Ron, I've had to stop twice in my lifetime, to avoid hitting a child who ran out in the road, and many times to avoid getting hit by someone who pulled out in front of me, so, thank God for becoming more aware of my speed.  

Difference is Ron, I would not hold up a store at gun point...rob an old woman with a knife or gun, pistol whip someone for their money, rape a child at gun point...and then kill them...or a woman...rob someone for a fix, kill someone because they owe me money for drugs, I'm the same as you or anyone else in this forum.  None of us are perfect, but....we all have standards and wouldn't think of taking another human beings life.  One can hardly compare a traffic ticket, to cold blooded murder...and yes, there absolutely "is" a big difference.  We're talking apples and oranges here.  

Ron, curious, are you saying then, that someone who ties their wife to a car, and drags her until she is dead, who is 35 years old, and a repeated offender, can be rehabilitated...????  

Or someone who rapes a child, who is a repeated offender, can be rehabilitated and put back on the streets again and again.

My next question would be, then do you believe that these repeated offenders will not be able to purchase a gun, because of new gun laws?

Believe me, these criminals will in fact gain guns the moment they are left free from jail.  

They know who to contact, and for the right price, they will have a piece in the hands within hours....

Kevin Felder, 25, (A Felon)accused of firing at the car carrying Casha'e Rivers, 5 years old, because he (thought) it was tailing him???
  http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/states/pennsylvania/counties/philadelphia_county/philadelphia/

This guy is a convicted Felon??? Why was he out?????  And because he was, a five year old child is gone forever????  

I'm interested in knowing how much medication they had him on and how long he was under the care of a physiciatrist while in prision, and why he was left free...

These are the questions we have to ask ourselves.  How many prisioners went under theropy and were medicated and for how long? and how many of them are repeated offenders, and where did they get their guns from?  

Fact is, correctional facilites are not working

Ron, we're not talking traffic tickets.....One can hardly compare the two...

People who cannot blend peacefully into society with respect for the law and lives of others, do not deserve to be any other place then where they can be contained and kept safely away from guns & society.  These people are mentally incompetent & unable to perform normally in society.  

Freedom comes as a priviledge...a right, with respect for others, respect for the lives of others, not to mention, realizing there are grave consequences or should be, for our actions against society.

We've been calling our prisons rehabilitation facilites for years now and allowing convicted criminals, felons,  out on good behavior, or because simply put, we do not have enough prisions or room in prisions.  Why, b/c we think these criminals should have rights...should have TV's, tiled floors, work out rooms, be able to take classes, have the right to obtain a college degree...on our tax dollars.  

I'm sorry, but I can no longer feel pity for these people?  I used to, but when you take a look at the families of all the victims of these criminals, I've come to a point in my life and it needs to be said...

(it's not working this way)....we've tried to make bigger & better gun laws, we've gone soft with sympathy for prisioners and set aside the safty of ssociety.

And the poor police are going crazy, trying to keep law and order and putting their lives on the line to keep us safe and our children out of harms way.
What are we telling them when we put another criminal out on the street that they worked so hard to capture and put away?

How many police officers have to be murdered until we stop and listen to them.  Can you imagine the frustration of these guys?

They are out on the streets, trying to catch these criminals, and when they finally get them, a lenient judge or jury slaps them on the wrist, saying bad boy, and puts them back on the street again...and once on the street again, your now placing the arresting officer in jeprody of a revenge killing.  A police officer who is a human being, with a family...trying to do a job for you and me????

Shame on us, for not thinking of these things...shame on us, for putting these guys back on the streets, shame on our judicial system and attorneys for setting them free...cuz the way I see it, we are all responsible for the next murder that occurs out there...and maybe, if we'd look at it that way, we wouldn't look for quick fixes, but remody the problem by going stright to the root of it.

How many children need to be raped or stolen, or worse, until we realize, criminals need to be incarcerated?

I suppose what I'm asking everyone to do, is to think about that...
the next time you hear someone has been murdered on the news...ask how many times this person was arrested...ask yourself, why the jury and judge left him go...and realize, that if that murderer had been encarcerated, maybe that 5 year old little girl would still be alive today or that woman that was raped might not have to live the rest of her life with HIV, and the shame of being assulted, afraid to go out of the house.  The next time we hear of a repeated criminal who has violated the life of another, we should think about the victim and ask ourselves, what would we do, if it was our child, our wife, or husband, and how would we feel when we hear, after 5 years in prison, he was left go?

Talk to my cousin, a woman who was forced to the floor at gun point, one guy was holding a baseball bat, she said, that scared her even more then the gun, and to this day, she doesn't know why, all she can remember thinking was that he was going to beat her to death with the bat.  They robbed the store she was manager of, got away with her purse, with her check book and her street address.  The last one was left out of prison, last year...can you imagine, what her life is like? How she fears?  And her situation, was minor compared to some very henous crimes.  These guys had robbed other places as well.  

Folks, thanks so much for reading and for taking the time to reply with your comments on this issue.  

Ron, thanks so much for this opportunity, for challenging me, and for this forum to be able to express my thoughts on this subjet.

Thanks to all of you...whew, I need to go take a deep breath now   sorry folks....

Sincerely
Lee J.  

  

Balladeer
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12 posted 09-28-2006 10:05 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

One can hardly compare a traffic ticket, to cold blooded murder..

LeeJ, you obviously haven't been reading Alley posts for the past  couple of years!!
LeeJ
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13 posted 09-28-2006 10:30 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ


Morning Michael
your kidding, right?

Local Rebel
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14 posted 09-28-2006 05:38 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

So, were it not for the fear then Mike, of being captured, prosecuted, and incarcerated.. you would rape, murder, rob, and sell drugs?

Who among you wants to live under a system that, were you to be wrongly accused and arrested, favored the prosecution instead of the defendant?  Of course, the system we have actually DOES, executively, favor the government, because all of the government's resources can be brought to bear against you -- whereas you only have yourself, and your Constitutional rights.

Catch and release.  Cute to talk about in fishing terms I suppose -- but do you want to have the opportunity to bail your sons and daughters out of jail when innocent?  What about if they're guilty?  Are you convinced there is a fair system to treat them as they should be treated?  Releasing suspects certainly presents the opportunity for repeat offenses -- but doesn't MAKE a criminal.  Is it the fact that a burglar alarm doesn't electrocute the burglar that made him a burglar?

How is it, that, sitting in a remote location, having access to no more than what you read in the newspapers you don't trust -- you can say a jury of 12 ordinary citizens doesn't have intimate enough knowledge of the details of a case to make an educated decision about it?

How can we sit here and think of every circumstance that may arise now and forever and determine the outcome and punishment for crimes that haven't been committed?
Local Rebel
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15 posted 09-28-2006 06:01 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

On the mean streets from East L.A. to South-Central L.A., gang members are leaving the thug life and trying to make it in a 60-person business called Homeboy Industries.

They come from the region's most notorious gangs and housing projects. But they've chosen to leave their crews and take up honest, blue-collar trades that often resurrect their lives. Their slogans: "Jobs, Not Jails" and "Nothing Stops a Bullet Like a Job."

"When I got that first paycheck, damn, it made me feel good," says Gabriel Flores, 25, a former gang member who works at Homeboy Industries' silk-screen business. "I didn't go steal a car or sell drugs for money. I worked for it."

The Rev. Gregory Boyle, a Jesuit priest known to homies as G-Dog or "Father Greg," began Homeboy Industries in 1992 as a job-training program to salvage the futures of gang members.

Many had long arrest and prison records, and nearly all had no work skills. But Boyle and Homeboy Industries officials have counseled and found jobs for several thousand youths from 500 Los Angeles gangs — many of them enemies on the streets. Law enforcement officials have criticized Homeboy Industries for going too easy on gang members. But the non-profit and Boyle also have been praised by first lady Laura Bush, and they have gained national media attention.

Now Homeboy Industries — funded mostly by local and federal grants and foundation gifts — hopes to become more independent by growing its several small businesses, including its moneymaking silk-screen and merchandising operation.
------------------

The non-profit places 300 youths a year in construction, clerical, textile, health care and other jobs, says Norma Robles Gillette, a former human resources manager at Neutrogena who is Homeboy Industries' job-development supervisor.

Job counselors coach the youths, helping them write their résumés, prepare for job interviews and fit into the business culture.

"We've seen a lot of really smart, talented kids who have been able to succeed in the work world," Robles Gillette says.


http://www.usatoday.com/money/smallbusiness/2005-07-10-homeboy-usat_x.htm



http://www.homeboy-industries.org//father_gregg.php#
Ron
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16 posted 09-28-2006 08:11 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Ron, we're not talking traffic tickets.....One can hardly compare the two...

Why not, Lee? Certainly, there are some similarities. Speed limits are posted, after all, to save lives and property, not to just give the police something to do, and people who willfully break those laws are no less dangerous to society than any other criminal. An automobile in the hands of an irresponsible person is a far more lethal weapon than a Colt 45 in the hands of a responsible one.

Beyond the inevitable similarities, however, a comparison of extremes is often a good way to recognize what is important to us and what is trivial. Mike has always made fun of my comparisons because he sees only the differences and refuses to acknowledge the similarities. I think we can only learn from those differences, however, if we also are willing to learn from the similarities.

For example, I think this comparison has shown us that you don't really believe people can't be rehabilitated or should be locked away for life. Your second ticket, after all, made you a repeat offender, Lee, but you seem to be saying those lapses were exceptions and don't represent your typical behavior. You paid the price, hopefully learned from it, and moved on with your life.

There are a good many crimes in various states that carry a mandatory life sentence with no opportunity for parole. So, obviously, there are people out there who agree with you, Lee. They agree with you that some crimes, like breaking the speed limit, should be punished less aggressively than more heinous crimes. They, like you, draw an arbitrary line through society, essentially saying, "Okay, these criminals can possibly be saved, but these criminals are beyond redemption."

All you're really doing, Lee, is trying to redraw the line somewhere else.


JesusChristPose
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17 posted 09-28-2006 09:53 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

~ I believe that there are criminals who can be rehabilitated and those who can not.

~ Those who cannot - commit crimes due to genetics and there is nothing that can change that.

~ Those who can - commit crimes due to their social upbringing, and that is all they know. I believe those individuals can be rehabilitated.

~ The problem is the penal system. It does not promote rehabilitation, but what are the answers? That is the question that no one can answer [pun?].




"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."
Local Rebel
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18 posted 09-29-2006 06:04 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Those who cannot - commit crimes due to genetics and there is nothing that can change that.



These people are called sociopaths, or pscyopaths with an official diagnosis of Antisosial Personality Disorder http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder and comprise about 3% of the male population and 1% female.

But they aren't all criminals.  They can mimic normal personalities and become high achievers, become CEO's of corporations, politicians, presidents.... because of thier lack of empathy for others the climb to the top is easily facilitated.

While there is no known cure for the condition, behavior modification is difficult due to the general lack of understanding of consequenses.

In other words -- the prospect of long jail sentences or even the death penalty have no effect in deterring thier behavior.  
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19 posted 09-29-2006 08:17 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

So, were it not for the fear then Mike, of being captured, prosecuted, and incarcerated.. you would rape, murder, rob, and sell drugs?

Actually, reb, no I wouldn't but I confess that I have not come to complete stops before making a right turn. Not only that, I'll probably do it again. Perhaps, by ron's meaning, that makes me a habitual criminal but I can live with it. Here in Florida we had a seat belt law for years which stated that, if you were seen not wearing a seat belt, you could be stopped. Stopped with a warning but no ticket or fine issued. Since this did not mean much to many people, the state passed a new law that non-compliance carried an automatic fine. Immediately the rates of people wearing seatbelts skyrocketed. Did the threat of punishment mean anything to them? I think you could safely say yes No, it's not rape or murder but breaking the law is breaking  the law, right? I remember years ago when blackouts hit the east coast and New York City, common ordinary people did things they would never have considered, especially theft. Store full of people, the lights go out, people grab things. I recall people saying things like, "I don't know what came over me. It (something) was there, no one could see me and I just grabbed it." The fear of being seen or captured or prosecuted was eliminated and they just did it. Does that make them criminals? Yep, sure does, but one can also argue that the baser side of  human nature entered into it a little.  You don't think that fear of being captured or prosecuted deters criminal activity? Disband police departments and see what happens.

Who among you wants to live under a system that, were you to be wrongly accused and arrested, favored the prosecution instead of the defendant?  Of course, the system we have actually DOES, executively, favor the government, because all of the government's resources can be brought to bear against you -- whereas you only have yourself, and your Constitutional rights.

I certainly agree with that. I do not want to live in a society where one is not innocent until proven guilty. I disagree that the system favors the government, though. Sure they have more resounces...so what? resouces cannot turn lies into truth. As  a former police officer I can assure you that the law bends over backwards the majority of the time to favor the rights of the accused, too much so, in many's opinion. I can think of nowhere in the world where accused individuals have more benefits and protections than here. I really don't think Lee's point is to have a legal system of guilty until proven innocent. She is addressing the issue of sentencing AFTER one is found guilty.

How is it, that, sitting in a remote location, having access to no more than what you read in the newspapers you don't trust -- you can say a jury of 12 ordinary citizens doesn't have intimate enough knowledge of the details of a case to make an educated decision about it?

12 ordinary making an educated decision? Sure they can but is that good enough? What determines their educated decision? If you look at a list of the "great" or well-known successful lawyers, such as Johnny Cochran(before he died), F. Lee Bailey (before he went senile), Roy Black, the Indian fellow out west..you find one thing in common. They are all great showmen.  Guilt or innocence many times depends on who has the best or  most flambouyant lawyer. Need I mention O.J.? Personally I disagree with our jury system. You have  lawyers who went through 8 years of schooling, a  judge who has spent years studying the law and yet the final decision comes down to Sally Homemaker, Joe  Six-Pack, Mike Mechanic and  nine others who know very little about  actual law except for the obvious things we all know. Yes, they try to make reasonable decisions but they are also influenced by  their own personal views and the theatrics of the defense attorneys. What do they know about the finer points of  the law, which could make a great deal of difference in a case? Should they select 12 random individuals to choose receipientsof Nobel prizes? Of course not but we do it for our legal system to determine guilt and innocence.  Personally, I would use the system several European countries use....a panel of judges instead of a jury. Then you have educated, experienced legal scholars,not so easily influenced by lawyer antics, making the decisions. When I am elected President, I will make it so

JesusChristPose
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20 posted 09-29-2006 11:25 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"These people are called sociopaths, or pscyopaths with an official diagnosis of Antisosial Personality Disorder http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder and comprise about 3% of the male population and 1% female."

~ Every single one of them are diagnosed this way? Prove it. Yet, that doesn't matter.

"But they aren't all criminals."

~ I never said they were.

"They can mimic normal personalities and become high achievers, become CEO's of corporations, politicians, presidents.... because of thier lack of empathy for others the climb to the top is easily facilitated."

~ They do well, especially in car sales.

"While there is no known cure for the condition, behavior modification is difficult due to the general lack of understanding of consequenses."

~ Yes, due to their genetics.

"In other words -- the prospect of long jail sentences or even the death penalty have no effect in deterring thier behavior"

~ More importantly, the affect their behavior on others does not deter what they do to others. I don't think of the "long jail sentences" when they commit the crimes they do, just what is in it for me.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Local Rebel
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21 posted 10-01-2006 11:09 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Personally, I would use the system several European countries use....a panel of judges instead of a jury. Then you have educated, experienced legal scholars,not so easily influenced by lawyer antics, making the decisions. When I am elected President, I will make it so



Well it should come as a relief to you that you needn't wait for the opportunity to become President and attempt abusing your power (and to the rest of us for not having to consider the prospect ) in order to have such a panel of judges hearing a case... it just so happens that every case has that opportunity NOW through the appeals process.

What I fail to comprehend though is that big 'C' conservatives are supposed to be suspicious of government and more reliant on Sally Homemaker, Joe Sixpack, and Mike Mechanic.  This is yet one more example where the coin flips the other way when it is a matter of convenience.

I happen to believe more in the efficacy of partnership between Senator Blowhard, Judge Krank, Officer O'Malley, and the forementioned than to favor it one way or another.  It is the very fact that our peers are 'ordinary' that makes them the best judges because they can decide whether or not your rolling stop is a true menace to society or merely an individual exercising reasonable judgement based on the presently existing conditions.

quote:

Sure they have more resounces...so what? resouces cannot turn lies into truth.



Really?  You want to talk to several thousand wrongly convicted persons about that?

quote:

the law bends over backwards the majority of the time to favor the rights of the accused



substitute 'my rights' for the phrase 'the rights of the accused' and see how far you think the system should bend backwards Mike.
Balladeer
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22 posted 10-01-2006 07:07 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

What I fail to comprehend though is that big 'C' conservatives are supposed to be suspicious of government and more reliant on Sally Homemaker, Joe Sixpack, and Mike Mechanic.  This is yet one more example where the coin flips the other way when it is a matter of convenience.


LOL....that is probably one of the sillier pieces of reasoning and insults I've seen....a tad unworthy of you, reb  

It is the very fact that our peers are 'ordinary' that makes them the best judges because they can decide whether or not your rolling stop is a true menace to society or merely an individual exercising reasonable judgement based on the presently existing conditions.

Exactly. My rolling stop is illegal, regardless of my judgement based on existing conditions. ...but, officer, I looked and no one was coming.. somehow never appears to be a very good defense.


Local Rebel
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23 posted 10-01-2006 09:01 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

that is probably one of the sillier pieces of reasoning and insults I've seen



Really?

Anytime a Conservative says that he is for 'small government' he's favoring the ability of Suzie Homemaker to see to herself.

If he says 'free market' he's favoring Mike Mechanic's ability to compete

If he says 'low taxes' he claims he's favoring Joe Sixpack's trickled down income

But, when you say bigger prisons, tighter control over judges, more judges, no juries -- you're saying the opposite.
Balladeer
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24 posted 10-01-2006 10:44 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I  fail  to follow your reasoning, LR. You make it sound like there is some checklist for all big C conservatives and if one does not follow any entry, then he must be flip-flopping. There is no such checklist, either for conservatives or liberals. Besides, I see no conflict in my reasoning. Conservatives believe that one  of the few main obligations of government is the protection of its citizens.That protection would include the best judicial system possible, which would be handled by professionals in that field. It also includes the best penal system possible to protect the law-abiding populace. That has nothing to do with Mike Mechanic's free market or Joes Sixpack's trickle down economics. Actually, iIt offers them a better chance to enjoy those freedoms with less of a chance of being mugged, robbed or murdered by those with no regard for law or rights.

What I DON'T understand is this....

It is the very fact that our peers are 'ordinary' that makes them the best judges because they can decide whether or not your rolling stop is a true menace to society or merely an individual exercising reasonable judgement based on the presently existing conditions.

So if our 'ordinary'  peers decide that turning on a red light is not such  a bad thing if no traffic is coming and let me off, that's a good thing? Making their judgements based on their own interpretations and feelings is better than actually upholding the law? There is a very short step between me beating the traffic ticket and O.J. getting away with murder because "After all, blacks have gotten the short end of the stick for years so let's even it up a little".  That is the policy you favor? I find that unlikely, even though that is basically what you are advocating with that statement.
 
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