How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 The Alley
 Philadelphia Records Its 290th Murder Fo   [ Page: 1  2  3  ]
 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Philadelphia Records Its 290th Murder For 2006

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


50 posted 10-05-2006 10:13 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Sigh.

Repetition doesn't make something true, Lee, nor does belaboring the obvious lend weight to your arguments. You just said the same things in this post you said in your first, with no allowance, either yay or nay, for anything said in between.

If you don't want to listen, the rest of us can quit talking?


LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


51 posted 10-05-2006 11:12 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

so I suppose that means I should keep quiet and nod my head like a nice little girl
your right, your right, your right?

ok, guess your not really listening to me either...thought I had some very good points to make in answering your questions, your statements...but you haven't answered mine.

No matter
Thread closed
Midnitesun
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Empyrean
since 05-18-2001
Posts 29020
Gaia


52 posted 10-05-2006 12:59 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

I've read most of this thread at one sitting, though I must admit I did lightly scim a few lengthy posts.
It isn't necessarily worse today than 40-50 years ago. When I was in school, I knew two drug dealers by their first names...local neighborhood hoods. When I was barely 17, I witnessed a gang style murder, half a block from my home. My childhood neighborhood is a nonstop wall of gang graffitti.
But most days I went to school without the fear of some insane person coming onto campus, tying up innocents and murdering them. That this recent school massacre happened in a 'safe' rural Amish setting tells me things have become worse, in many ways. It doesn't seem to make any difference whether or not there is a death penalty, or prison consequences. Guns are only one weapon, but I can't help but believe they are just far too easy to get your hands on, in spite of all the regulations in place nationwide. I'd personally enjoy a total ban, but know that will never happen.
For what it is worth, my thoughts are similar, Lee...there is no rehabilitating some of these criminals, and the courts have become far too lenient, even as the prisons and jails are becoming so overcrowded the state of California is now going to begin farming out their prisoners to other states.
Working with families, parents and children from preschool upwards to change behavioral violent patterns is the only long term solution. Yet it seems we spend most of our efforts as a nation pumping time and money into incarceration or more layers of laws. The root causes and solutions of violence are often ignored, although on a smaller scale, I have witnessed a handful of parents who said, enough! and encorporated anger management training sessions into their school programs. It has to start at an early age, and if not done in the home, then it must be done within the schools. A lot of the violence starts early, with the too-often ignored verbal bullying, then escalates into the physical. Until we address the first levels of violence more effectively, we are doomed to building more prisons, and watching more horror stories unfold in the media.  
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


53 posted 10-05-2006 01:58 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
so I suppose that means I should keep quiet and nod my head like a nice little girl
your right, your right, your right?

You're perfectly free to disagree, Lee.

You're neither agreeing nor disagreeing, though. You're just saying the same things again and again. Violence bad, retribution good. And that's okay, too. Just don't expect me to continue pointing out WHY your proposed solutions won't work, don't work, and have never worked in the past.


Midnitesun
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Empyrean
since 05-18-2001
Posts 29020
Gaia


54 posted 10-05-2006 02:25 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

I came back to thank you, Reb, for that info on Homeboy Industries...an excellent start in the right direction.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


55 posted 10-05-2006 04:44 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LR, the blacks didn't sit in the back of the bus and women were already in the workplace but I thank you anyway for such an inane reply.

Thank you for responding with sarcasm. I only lived there. Certainly you must know better...
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


56 posted 10-05-2006 06:22 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I didn't say it wasn't that way Mike, for you.  Just pointing out what still isn't obvious, to you.

Here's what else I know Mike,

Conservative Republican Presidents have been appointing more judges during the last half-century than liberal Democrats have been... Nixon/Ford = 8 Years + Reagan/Bush =12 years + Bush = 6 years -- that's more than twice as many years as the Carter 4 + Clinton 8.

Conservative Republicans have been in control of making the laws in Congress for 12 years.

Where is your utopia?

Kacy -- you're welcome.

Lee -- you still don't get it.  Sympathy isn't part of the equation.  Efficacy is what I'm talking about.  You want to reduce recidivism.  You want to reduce crime.

The primary way to do that is to have fewer criminals.  The secondary must be to rehabilitate the criminals you have.  Pre-habilitation and re-habilitation are matters of logic -- not sympathy.

Increasing penalties and tying judges hands doesn't work.  Gee -- if fat people only knew that Snickers bars made them fat they'd never eat them right?

If people only knew that unprotected sex caused pregnancy and STD's they wouldn't do that right?

If criminals know they face stiff penalties they just won't commit crimes?  All that does is encourage more murder -- dead men can't finger you in a line-up.
LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


57 posted 10-06-2006 07:33 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

I only have one thing to offer this morning
that I thought imparative to share.  Last night I was completely humbled...and thought of this thread that I started...and my comments...here is why.

For those of you who don't know...this past Monday, Oct. 2nd a man walked into an Amish Community's one room school house and proceeded to shoot 10 children...exectution style.  At that time 5 children were dead and 5 were seriously wounded.  

This has been a shocking event for us, here in PA, as it never has happened before, that I can remember.

Not that its any worse b/c it has happened here, but it has certainly for me, made Columbine and all other school shootings more real, then before.

The Amish are a guiet and humble people...tremendous workers who are steadfast in their faith.  Their children do not attend public schools. They plow their fields with horses that are trained to voice command.  They refuse the rest of the world and are totally self providing and will not allow their pictures taken, etc.    

They do no have electric in their homes and transport themselves by horse and carriage. We who live near their community, love to visit there, enjoy their hand crafted quilts, canned goods, cooking, and farm harvests, not to mention, the beauty of rolling farm lands for miles and miles.  

Last evening I learned that on the evening of the shooting, the Amish community, got together and went to the woman whose husband shot their children.  They told her if she needed anything...they would assist, and took up a collection for her, to help her in her time of need.  They assured her, that they sought no retribution, that God for some reason, had His reasons for this happening.  They gave her more love, then I ever thought imaginable.....

Just thought this needed to be said and shared.
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


58 posted 10-06-2006 10:57 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

I, too, live in the midst of Amish country, Lee, probably closer in fact than most. I usually can't drive to the nearest store, some seven miles into town, without slowing down at least once or twice for a rambling buggy (or a huge pile of horse droppings).

My nearest Amish neighbor, Harvey, lives at the end of my dirt road, a bit more than a stone's throw, but certainly close enough to easily see if you're willing to look around a few standing pines. Harvey helped me clear some brush and sumac saplings a few years back, and it was a real delight to walk around my few acres while he gave name to every tree, every shrub, and nearly every weed. His love for the land is obvious and has only served to wet my own.

Isn't it lovely, Lee, when people can react not out of anger and hate and fear, but out of honest love and compassion?


LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


59 posted 10-06-2006 12:28 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

well, it surely gave me a reality check...

and yes, it is....

Love to you and yours Ron, and thank you
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


60 posted 10-13-2006 02:29 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Want a little insight as to what's wrong with the system from an officer's standpoint?
http://mfile.akamai.com/12948/wmv/vod.ibsys.com/2006/0728/9591734.300k.asx
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


61 posted 10-13-2006 08:39 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

If you want to blame the Judge Mike you have to wonder how a panel of them is going to solve the problem.  

But, as is the case so often -- here is the REAL problem (if the Judge is to blame)
http://www.smartvoter.org/2002/03/05/ca/sf/race/20/

He ran unopposed in 2002...

background
http://www.examiner.com/a-199354~Suspects_in_Birco_killing_arraigned.html
http://www.examiner.com/a-234608~Keep_killers_off_The_City_s_streets.html

It's a story Conservatives are whipping up around the web -- but, the question remains -- what do you want to do -- when you talk about a suspect's rights -- you're talking about YOUR rights.  When I talk about protecting YOUR rights -- I can't do that without protecting the suspect's rights.

As with so many instances this is yet one more where many are willing to give up liberty for security.

I think Police UNION President (featured in your video)Gary Delagnes struck on the real trouble (in this case) right here:

quote:

To add insult to injury, Petrilli was financing 100 percent of four different bails because of a new practice by some bail bondsman who no longer require an arrestee to post 10 percent of the bail up front.

That came to more than $800 per month in payments. I wonder where he was getting the money to make those payments.
http://www.examiner.com/a-234608~Keep_killers_off_The_City_s_streets.html



There's no Constitutional right to a bail-bondsman, nor to a no-money-down bail bondsman.

This is going to be a favorite no-doubt because it features San-Francisco -- but, Officers seem to die in the line of duty everywhere;
http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/police/ofckilled.htm
http://members.tripod.com/~Stacy_P/officerdown.htm http://www.odmp.org/year.php
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


62 posted 10-13-2006 10:47 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I agree, reb, that officers die everywhere. Two  got shot tonight in Miami. More times than not, the acts are committed by people who should not be out on the street.

The video blames judges. Icombine the judges with the jury system where the most flambouyant lawyer wins and I also blame what the legal system has become.

I think there was a time when the object of a trial was to find the truth. It's not that way anymore. It is only a contest between the prosecutors and the defense lawyers. Truth is secondary. Want proof? What happens if thedefense attorney uncovers information that proves his client is guilty? Can he turn it over to the prosecutors? Can he do anything wth it? No, that violates the rights of the person who is guilty of the crime. We have traffict lawyers here who guarantee to get you out of your ticket - indeed, there are some who have never lost. Truth? Truth is secondary. The contest is first. Combine that with judges as in the example, a jury system that bases their decisions on what their "heart" tells them to do and how much they are impressed by the attorneys and you have the justice system we have now.
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


63 posted 10-13-2006 11:34 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Yep, it sucks, Mike.

The only thing worse is everything else. Not just everything currently available, but everything man has devised in several thousand years of trying. Justice, just like freedom, doesn't come cheaply.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


64 posted 10-13-2006 11:57 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The only thing worse is everything else

Ron, on that we agree completely.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


65 posted 10-14-2006 12:13 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

jury system that bases their decisions on what their "heart" tells them to do



Well I think there are a couple of people letting their great big hearts lead them on this thread Mike -- and I don't blame you for it.. it's easy to do when we see the innocent being harmed.

But, you, like the jury, are using your hearts based on information that comes to you about individual cases.  That's where compassion must be applied, compassion for victims always, for the accused always, for the guilty maybe.  Because we know the DETAILS of a particular instance we will know where to apply that sympathy.

When it comes to the policy/legislative/constitutional level though, we have to face the mechanics of the system as dispassionately as possible in regards to individual cases and place our passion squarely on the collective individual,  because what's going to be 'right' in one case is almost never going to be so in another case and surely never so in all cases.

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


66 posted 10-14-2006 12:37 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

because what's going to be 'right' in one case is almost never going to be so in another case and surely never so in all cases.


Lemmee tell you, Reb, you hit the nail on the head with that one. I agree completely and yet our legal system relies on rules "written in stone" and that is a major problem in our system. That is why cases,even involving major felonies, get thrown out on ridiculous technicalities. Common sense takes a backseat in too many cases.
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> The Alley >> Philadelphia Records Its 290th Murder Fo   [ Page: 1  2  3  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors