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Philadelphia Records Its 290th Murder For 2006

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Local Rebel
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25 posted 10-01-2006 11:42 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

So if our 'ordinary'  peers decide that turning on a red light is not such  a bad thing if no traffic is coming and let me off, that's a good thing? Making their judgements based on their own interpretations and feelings is better than actually upholding the law?



Yes it is.  It's called Jury Nullification.  The Jury is the final check and balance on the government.  Even though a law has passed through a legislative body (be it State, Local, or Federal) and signed into law by its' respective executive, the jury in any given case ultimately decides the applicability of that particular law in that particular case.

Mike Mechanic can decide if Mike Pest-Controller's rolling stop is equal to a sociopath who blows through every light in town at 110 mph leaving wreckage, injury, and death in his wake.

He can decide that the system is hopelessly skewed against somebody, from the legislative level on through to the police, the prosecutor, and the judge who is a former prosecutor, and be the final voice of freedom against tyranny.

Mike Mechanic, Nancy Nurse, CEO Sally, all bring their own prejudices and opinions into the court with them -- but mostly they bring complete independence from the system which makes them the invaluable finders of fact.

Yes, government institutions are REQUIRED for any nation to have econmic success.  Economic success is required for there to be liberty.  

It's ok Mike.  I know what Conservatives mean when they say small government.  They mean they don't want poor people to have benefits -- but they want huge military, police, and penal systems.  I know all that.  I'm just pulling the curtain back so everybody can take a peek.

You'd have a much smaller government though if you actually addressed the root causes of most crime and had a much more productive populace than you would by putting it in jail.
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26 posted 10-01-2006 11:48 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

They mean they don't want poor people to have benefits -- but they want huge military, police, and penal systems.

Aha...the  standard liberal line, perfected by the Kennedys, Kerrys and other champions of the poor. I leave you with the fantasy....
Balladeer
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27 posted 10-01-2006 11:59 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

but mostly they bring complete independence from the system which makes them the invaluable finders of fact.

What happened with this thought?

Really?  You want to talk to several thousand wrongly convicted persons about that?

Perhaps our invaluable finders of fact could use a little tweaking?
Local Rebel
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28 posted 10-02-2006 05:53 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

the  standard liberal line, perfected by the Kennedys, Kerrys and other champions of the poor



Hate to break it to you Mike but that's not a pejorative.  Without the New Deal we'd had no WPA, no infrastucture, full blown communist revolution in the country while Hitler was marching across Europe.  What do you think the world would be like today?  You want to pay for some kids education, food, housing, and help him find some work before he tries to rob the corner store and accidentaly kills the proprietor while doing so?  Or, after?

quote:

What happened with this thought?

Really?  You want to talk to several thousand wrongly convicted persons about that?

Perhaps our invaluable finders of fact could use a little tweaking?



No.  Without them there would be thousands and thousands more innocent convicted.  Prosecutors, Police, and Judges could herd suspects through the system without any check on rules of evidence or habeus corpus.  It would be merely you and whatever counsel you can afford vs. the entire government.

Juries are the ultimate rule 'by the people'.  Without them the only two people in the courtroom who understand life not on the government payroll and outside the legal system are you and your lawyer.

It seems Conservatives are rarely happy with the decisions of that one panel of judges, lets see, what's it called again?  Oh, yeah... the Supreme Court... judicial activism and the like.  

quote:

(juries are) "the spinal column of American democracy"  -- Justice Scalia


[This message has been edited by Local Rebel (10-02-2006 06:31 AM).]

LeeJ
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29 posted 10-02-2006 09:02 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

I believe our legal system has descended to nihilism (total rejection of established laws & institutions, absolute destructiveness toward the world at large)

Ron, thank you for your views and can sincerely understand your reasoning…believe you are valid in your views to a degree, but believe now, after hearing your explanation, an automobile in the hands of an irresponsible person IS a lethal weapon, but not more lethal then a gun, and my reason for stating this is there are far more people murdered with guns, knives, beatings, then there are people killed by cars.  Doesn’t make is less meaningful, or less of a crime, mind you…but crime is on the upswing.  
http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/a/automobile_accidents_injury/deaths.htm
Crime in the United States accounts for more deaths, injuries then Automobile Accidents and Natural Disasters combined.     http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
How many people actually get in their cars & think, today I’m going to try and hit someone, rape someone, or rob a convenience store with my car?   (I’m also including drunken drivers)… (I call it drunk driving, because I don’t believe people who drink & drive merit an intellectual word as intoxicated or under the influence).   Yes, a drunken driver is an accident waiting to happen, but is it premeditated?  No.  

But, when you pick up a gun, you’ve already predetermined your going to take control of the situation, even if it means shooting someone.  (And yes, I’m certain there are a small percentage of people who believe “they’re not really going to shoot anyone”, just use the gun to control the situation) but DO end up shooting someone.  

And Reb, totally understand where your coming from as well….and thank you for your feedback.

It would be nice if this rehabilitation worked 100%, but they don’t.  A person has to want to change, in order to make a difference and that IS the difference.  I’m happy to hear that some can be rehabilited…as one life saved, affects an entire community…but what about those who won’t be rehabilitated…? Those who are set in their ways and desire NOT to change?  Far more then those who can and will change.  And what about their victims, and the families of those victims…should we sweep their pain under the table and allow their murderers out to strike again, simply because we feel sorry for them?  

It would be a perfect world if everyone got along and there was no crime at all….but there is crime, and we’ve been trying things differently since the Movie Cool Hand Luke, which gained sympathy for prisoners…. And I’m all for trying, but it isn’t working….and when crime is on an upswing, and a thing isn’t working, then it’s time to make a change.  


I believe the point Mike and I are trying to make (and correct me if I’m wrong Mike) but we both realize a moral conviction…we both practice a respect for the law…it isn’t all about fear of being caught, but about respect for the law, and the lives and property of others.  We both understand what severe consequences our actions of crime could have on the lives of others.

There are a lot more people in the world today who feel, they deserve something for nothing and unfortunately, I believe society holds (some) responsibility for this.   We’ve become to lenient in our laws…which dictates to would be criminals, it’s ok to commit a crime, cuz the consequences are going to be lenient.  Same as welfare…everyone at one time in their lives needs help, but to actually encourage people to live on welfare for the rest of their lives breeds’ laziness, a disregard for any responsibility to society as a working member….not to mention, welfare breeds welfare.  We are making people lazy; we are allowing criminals to get off easy and encouraging crime.  

Some lines have to be drawn when it comes to breaking the law…there are some crimes that are certainly more heinous and brutal then others, which should merit different penalties, but, most certainly there should be penalties.  To me, if a person commits murder, once, twice, and three times, then they are not a productive member of society and need to be placed somewhere, where they can never harm another person.

If a child molester is a repeated offender, then they don’t deserve to be a member of society.  What we are doing, is allowing these people to be free again and again, and they ruin more lives…and this to me, is a result of society feeling more empathy for the criminal then for the families of those people who are yet to be assaulted or murdered by criminals YOU say have rights.  

We’ve been trying it your way for years…and the percentage of rehabilitation is very low. http://www.whatisscientology.org/html/part10/chp31/pg0518.html

Again, I refer to my son’s testimony on this because he is a police officer.

I suggest Ron, and Reb…considering your comments in all due respect to be in good taste and judgment, you both talk to police officers, ask if you can go along on a ride with them…and write a study of your finds, non-biased of course.  And, I believe you both would…but I also believe, your train of thought is not working.  I want to see change, I want to see a safer place for our children… we shouldn’t have to worry about on line predators…or friends of the family or clergy, taking advantage of our children’s innocence and trust and raping them.  And if it takes stricter laws for people to get a grip and stop violating another human being, then so be it.  

Let’s pretend your out in the wild…and some predator, who feeds on human flesh, oh lets say a cougar, attacks you?  What are you going to do, lie down and let him eat you cuz you feel sorry for him cuz he’s a little hungry?  Same scenario with criminals today, predators who would feed off the innocence of others, or the success of others, who believe they have a right to take whatever it is they want.  Well they don’t.  No one does.  And until we once again, take hold of our judicial system, encouraging people to be more law abiding by stricter laws, longer sentences…crime will be on the upswing.  When you excuse bad behavior, you encourage it.  

And Ron, in some cases, lines HAVE to be drawn…, to protect the whole of humanity against those who would harm humanity, sorry, but that is reality.    And as far as speeding, I wish there were many more police officers to go around.  Many more speed traps, with really outrageously high fines…..of which a percentage of those fines could go towards the city hiring more police officers.  

One of the questions a candidate testing for a police officer career is this…
If your on a speed trap, and three speeders come down the road…the first, being a clergy, the second, the mayor, and the third, a kid….who are you going to stop and ticket?

Correct Answer:  The very first driver no matter who he/she is, b/c the next two drivers will automatically slow down.  It’s a proven fact.

Ron/Reb…again, my son is a police officer, and maybe you guys need to see what he sees…maybe all those who are for liberal laws and penalties, should do mandatory drive alongs…just to experience, what is really going on out there?  I don’t expect you to come completely over to my side of the fence, but simply to consider the lives of the victims.  It’s not about revenge…it’s about respect for the law, respect for life, and realizing the whole of lives affected (the hurt, the fear/depression, the loss, the effects that affect victims all because one person thought he/she had a right to break the law)?
Ron
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30 posted 10-02-2006 11:21 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
... and my reason for stating this is there are far more people murdered with guns, knives, beatings, then there are people killed by cars.

Check your numbers again, Lee.

According to your own references (there are more current ones on the 'Net), there were 42,443 automobile deaths in 2001 versus 16,037 murders. I make that at more than twice as many fatalities from automobiles than from murder. Way more.

quote:
Yes, a drunken driver is an accident waiting to happen, but is it premeditated? No.

I disagree.

Drinking alcohol is premeditated. Getting behind the wheel of a car is premeditated. The result of combining those two is never going to be an accident.

quote:
It would be nice if this rehabilitation worked 100%, but they don’t.

Of course rehabilitation doesn't work 100 percent of the time, Lee. But neither does it fail 100 percent of the time, either, which is exactly what you're contending. You don't want to give anyone a second chance at life because the success rate doesn't meet your standards?

quote:
Some lines have to be drawn when it comes to breaking the law ...

Absolutely. And you are perfectly free to argue that you should be the one to decide where those lines are drawn, Lee. My earlier point was simply a recognition that was what you are doing.

quote:
Again, I refer to my son’s testimony on this because he is a police officer.

And that is precisely what makes the testimony biased, Lee. You don't ask a PFC sitting in a trench how the war should be run, after all, just as you can't ask a widow to hand down the sentence for her husband's killer. In all instances, they know too much of one side of the story and can't be expected to remain impartial. Their goals, very understandably I think, won't necessarily coincide with the goals of society.

quote:
It’s not about revenge…it’s about respect for the law, respect for life, and realizing the whole of lives affected (the hurt, the fear/depression, the loss, the effects that affect victims all because one person thought he/she had a right to break the law)?

I agree completely, Lee. But that has absolutely nothing to do with harsher sentences or the assumption that no one can be rehabilitated.

Here's an excerpt, Lee, from your own references:

quote:
In the year 2000 Texas had an estimated population of 20,851,820 which ranked the state 2nd in population. For that year the State of Texas had a total Crime Index of 4,955.5 reported incidents per 100,000 people. This ranked the state as having the 8th highest total Crime Index. For Violent Crime Texas had a reported incident rate of 545.1 per 100,000 people. This ranked the state as having the 13th highest occurrence for Violent Crime among the states. For crimes against Property, the state had a reported incident rate of 4,410.4 per 100,000 people, which ranked as the state 10th highest. Also in the year 2000 Texas had 5.9 Murders per 100,000 people, ranking the state as having the 17th highest rate for Murder. Texas’s 37.7 reported Forced Rapes per 100,000 people, ranked the state 17th highest. For Robbery, per 100,000 people, Texas’s rate was 145.1 which ranked the state as having the 16th highest for Robbery. The state also had 356.3 Aggravated Assaults for every 100,000 people, which indexed the state as having the 13th highest position for this crime among the states. For every 100,000 people there were 906.3 Burglaries, which ranks Texas as having the 12th highest standing among the states. Larceny - Theft were reported 3,057.4 times per hundred thousand people in Texas which standing is the 10th highest among the states. Vehicle Theft occurred 446.8 times per 100,000 people, which fixed the state as having the 13th highest for vehicle theft among the states.


That same year, Lee, in 2000, there were 85 people executed in the state of Texas. Killed. Dead. Do you really think you can come up with a harsher sentence than that?


Balladeer
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31 posted 10-02-2006 01:12 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

er, can I count being married to my ex-wife, Ron?
LeeJ
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32 posted 10-02-2006 01:45 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Ron, Hello

Well, you caught me...I meant to say all crime combined, not just murders….sorry,  Guess I became overly focused….or something?   And your right, way more then murders…but look at overall crime and take a total.  That is what I should have written, so on that one, I stand corrected.  

Yes, exactly my point on rehabilitation…it doesn’t work 100% but there are far less rehabs then repeated offenders….far less….statistics show it doesn’t work, especially with older criminals…I believe there are a few younger kids that can be rehabbed…but on the average, rehab doesn’t work, it is a very small percentage.

I didn’t say I should be the one to decide and I’m not saying I should be the one…certainly there should be different levels of punishment according to the severity of the crime.  

My son’s testimony surely and clearly does not make the testimony biased…he works in the field for goodness sakes, that is a whole lot different then asking a widow to sentence her husband’s killer…

Ron, he is closer to the situation then we’ll ever be.  He is constantly arresting repeated offenders…and our judicial system lets them go…over and over again…some of which are kids…and by the time they are 28 – 55, do you believe they are going to be rehabilitated?  

Respecting the law, respect for life, and realizing the whole of all lives affected by crime certainly does have to do with this thread and harsher sentences and my concept of believing if we had stricter laws, harsher sentences, less people would be affected by crime.  

No, I cannot come up with a harsher sentence then 85 people going to the electric chair, and just in case you’re interested, I don’t really know where I stand on that type of punishment, but what I do know is this…

If there were stricter punishments for crime, and a lot more jails build to house criminals…there would be less crime, more people safer.  

We’ve been trying it your way for years now, and it just isn’t working….crime fighting is going to take new strategies….and should be a big issue this coming election.  

I believe a big contributor towards crime is role models for kids today.  This comment includes all crime.  Crime seems to be sensationalized….child porn, rape, physical fighting, shooting, etc.  Kids act out this same scenario…kids also know when they are not loved, and will act out, in anger, resulting in crime, perhaps even for attention, so rehabilitating parents on how to be parents needs to be a big practice as well.

If we don’t do something soon, you’re going to be seeing much more of this… http://CNN.com
And it isn’t about stronger gun laws…
Again…criminals will always get guns…bigger and better then the police force has…
It’s law abiding citizens who will adhere to gun laws…
But gun laws will not stop crime…putting criminals away will…common sense tells ya, when you get sick you treat it, not look for a quick fix…treating a disease takes time and hard work…and sometimes difficult decisions which may not always seem fair to some, but if something isn’t working you certainly have to try something different.…it is because of lenient laws that crime is on the upswing…it is because people feel more sympathy for the criminals then the victims, that people are being violated.  Go look at all the criminals in jail…go talk to them, and see if you still feel the same way…they don’t call them hard core criminals for nothing.

And I do understand what your trying to say, but I don’t agree with you…and you don’t have to agree with me…but, one thing for certain…your way is not working Ron….Crime is on the rise.

Ron
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33 posted 10-02-2006 02:51 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
er, can I count being married to my ex-wife, Ron?

Sorry, Mike, but I'm told self-inflicted pain doesn't qualify as punishment. They, uh, call that something else. Besides, you (and I) managed to escape ...

quote:
Ron, he is closer to the situation then we’ll ever be.

So, too, is the widow, Lee. And, of course, the police are no closer to the situation than are the criminals. You want to ask their opinions, too?

There's such a thing as being too close. It's called bias.

quote:
If there were stricter punishments for crime, and a lot more jails build to house criminals…there would be less crime, more people safer.

You mean like in Texas?

I just think you're looking for simple solutions to complex problems, Lee. It would be wonderful if we could erase crime by passing a few laws, but I think the problems in society run a little more deeply than that. A criminal doesn't run a cost/benefit analysis before picking up a pistol, so increasing the cost has never been an effective deterrent. And people who feel they have little to lose aren't easily frightened.

I believe actions carry consequences and criminals should be treated like criminals. I do not believe all criminals should be treated the same. The distinction may be subtle, but it's nonetheless an important one.

LeeJ
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34 posted 10-02-2006 04:14 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Bias...?  Or knowledgable?

Not to mention, being shot at, spit at, kicked...they're out there protecting you and your families...it's their job...then you could say that a fireman would be biased for putting the fire out on your home?  

What could be more realistic then someone who works closely with the criminals...then I could say anyone who tries to rehabilitate them is also biased....

why aren't we out there concerning ourselves with the victims, giving them free rehabilatation...counseling...?

Police know much more then most of us do, as a matter of fact, presently right there where you live, there is probably so much that goes on that never reaches the papers....or that you hear about...but it's going on...

exactly, Ron, and my point....a criminal doesn't run a cost/benefit analysis before picking up a pistol,  so increasing the cost has never been an effective deterrent. And people who feel they have little to lose aren't easily frightened.  Your absolutely right, and are a menace to society.

Some are, Ron, some are not...but fact of the matter is, regardless if they are or are not...they are a menace to society and should not be allowed back out into society, if they are repeated offenders of murder, rape, or using a weapon with intent, or sexual offenders.

It is because of the way you and many others believe, that crime is on the upswing, more then ever....and punishment is effective if we get them off the streets....

If they are not on the streets, and locked away...lets say until they are deemed rehabilitaded, who is going to commit the crimes?  You?  Me?  Your mother, brother, sister?  

Crime shouldn't be rewarded and to my way of thinking your way of thinking is rewarding the criminal.

If I'm wrong, tell me why
and also tell me what fixes you would impliment to help reduce the problem.  Cuz it's not working now.

Again...biased or not (which to me is simply an answer to prove your point)...my son is constantly arresting repeated offenders...and you know something, even if he is out there biased or not, I'm certainly glad I've gotten the education from him on crime that I've received...and again say, do a ride along sometime, talk to police officers, perhaps they can assure you how bad crime really is, and what will help to protect law abiding citizens of this country.

I don't believe the problem can be fixed 100%, but I do know when I was young, laws were much more strick, there was less crime, less gangs, less murders...we didn't have to lock our doors or cars then...crime was controlled...

I believe criminals to be mentally incompitent, to be an unproductive menace to society.  

If your so apt to believe they are not, then perhaps you should take up a room at your local penetry for about a week and come back and tell me the same thing.  

I don't get it, Ron, seriously, why there are people out there who tend to feel more empathy for the prisioner then for the victims and their families?  

It used to be considered abnormal to want to hurt another person, take away they're lives...their innocence.

Let me put this another way?  Have you ever had people break in and rob your home while you were away.  

Have you ever felt the complete loss, the fear, the what if's the total feeling of violation...and that's simply a robbery...now consider someone who enters your home while your there, with a gun, and kills you or your family.  Or worse, rapes your wife in front of you and your children.  

How can you feel sympathy for that criminal?

Tell you what, for all those people who believe criminals should be felt sorry for, why don't you put a sign on your home, All Criminals Welcome Here...? Just kidding

You've made some very good points, and some not very good points...and thank you for the conversation...and your point of view.  I know we're never going to solve the problem 100%, but as suggested before, we've got to change, cuz it's not working this way.

And your absolutely right Ron, crime goes much deeper then the act...but yanno, we've all experienced hardships, hard lives...does that make it right for us to go out and take what we want at gun point, or molest a 13 year old child or younger, or steal children and sell them for child prostitution? And would we?  I think not...why wouldn't we.

Why wouldn't you commit a crime like that Ron?  

Why wouldn't you murder someone?

Have you ever talked with a police officer on this subject just to gain some knowledge and perspective on the issue?

I really think, feel and believe, if laws were strict, if our judicial system were strick...criminals wouldn't be as protected, criminals would have to serve longer sentences, our society would be better for it...crime would not be totally abolished from society, but crime statistics would certainly decline.

Where's John Wayne when you need em?

Many thanks for listening, but most of all for contributing.



[This message has been edited by LeeJ (10-03-2006 09:04 AM).]

Local Rebel
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35 posted 10-02-2006 05:26 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

And Reb, totally understand where your coming from as well



I'm sorry to say Lee, you are a far cry from being there yet.  But keep working on it.
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quote:
I really think, feel and believe, if laws were strict, if our judicial system were strick...criminals wouldn't be as protected, criminals would have to serve longer sentences, our society would be better for it...crime would not be totally abolished from society, but crime statistics would certainly decline.

Once again, Lee -- you mean like Texas?
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37 posted 10-03-2006 04:29 AM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

*Laughing* ..."like Texas."  You mean the place were the Court systems are so backed up with criminal cases, they can't get them all processed?  

I have absolutely no answers to this issue.  Crime is certainly growing by leaps and bounds here in Texas.  Do tougher laws stop it?  Apparently not.

LeeJ, this has been an interesting thread to watch and I certainly sympathize.  Your comment about what about helping victims of crime caught my attention.  That is something that I feel real strongly about, too.  
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38 posted 10-03-2006 08:45 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Reb

Respectfully I'll say, I do understand where your coming from…what I don’t understand is how members of a community can have more empathy for criminals the victims of crime.  I’m trying to understand your point of view, and you’ve brought some very good points to the table…

You say…”you are a far cry from being there yet…but keep working on it”?
Reb, I have every intention to remain steadfast to my view points on this….I believe it is admirable that you have faith in rehabilitation, and if you can save one person from a life of crime, then you’ve done a good thing…but my question is, what about rehabilitating the older criminals?   Your talking kids…I’m talking hard core criminals and repeated offenders.  

I feel badly for anyone who is wrongfully accused of any crime they didn’t commit.  And one person wrongfully accused is one to many…but it’s got to work both ways…when a person is sexually abused, or one person murdered for a $10.00 bill, well, that to me,  is also one person to many.  

You’ve got to see both points of view, right, what about the victims?

By the way, what are the statistics on wrongfully accused & convicted, compared to the criminals walking around free out there who are in fact, repeated offenders?  

You’ve got criminals killing kids, raping kids…selling drugs to kids, kids shooting kids…law enforcement fighting sexually violent predators, fraud, correctional institution crime and tax crimes, fighting serious felony offenses, child victimization, murderers, cop killers, thefts…school shootings, gang murders, sex crimes, and if you have a man who apologizes for rape, says it was his first time…people feel sorry for him….and now, even a congressman who is a child predator…?????

What have lenient laws accomplished?  Nothing….what has happened here is encouraged more crime….literally making fools out of the victims…slapped them in the face…and tells them and us, it doesn’t pay to be a law abiding citizens.  It is a decline of respect, for the safety of our communities….

Corruption is most certainly on the upswing…criminal behavior is fed by leniency…crime breeds more crime and crime has been rising and rising since we’ve taken this liberal stance…and liberal way of thinking.  

Ron…I’m wondering, why you haven’t answered any of my questions?  

In answer to your question, “You mean like Texas” I’d like to know what crimes those men committed before I answer…if they were criminals like Charles Manson…for me, that’s a tough call…I don’t know how I feel about that and what is right to do in a case like that…I’m on the fence, but state…if it is a cold blooded killer like Manson, then I tend to lean towards the death penalty or at least, life in prison, where they can no longer hurt anyone.  

We are given life, we are expected to be productive members of a community, leaving this place a little better then when we came here…we are supposed to be law abiding citizens…and if we break that law, and we should expect punishment…

If we take a life…we then, should have no rights…other then to remain behind bars contained and away from society for the rest of our days….

Statistics show, that the percentage of rehabilitating sexual predators is very slim….

And one child violated by any adult, is one child ruined, their innocence taken away from them by an adult who knows better...or should know better?  Children look to adults to keep them safe....we have a responsiblity to them to do just that.

Why is it, you have never sexually violated a child…Ron, or murdered someone, why is it you have never robbed a convenience store....???? Or broke into a home and robbed them of their identity...life's savings?

If I were a Catholic, I would not walk into a Catholic Church again, until those men of the cloth, would be teachers of God’s word, men we trusted, and taught our children to trust…who violated that trust and disgustingly took advantage of all those little kids…men who claimed to be productive members of society…men whom we told are children were to be respected…and yet, by walking back in those churches we are saying…Hey, that’s ok.  If a priest were convicted of sexual abuse…they do not deserve to be a member of society…and we as law abiding citizens have a duty to protect our society, our children and say, This is not ok…we want these men prosecuted and put away if they are found guilty.  And until that is done, we will not walk back into your church.  By not standing by the law and what is right, we to, become criminals….we are saying, it’s ok to protect criminals and sexual offenders.  Until the public stands up for what is right and wrong...how can we expect our country to function.  Each one of us is responsible to our community to protect it.

If we want to be working members of society, we must make some really hard decisions sometimes to make our laws work.  

We’ve become a society that feels sympathy for the criminals…and by doing so, our laws have been depleting for years…and with the depletion of laws, comes a depletion of society...when all becomes chaotic & corrupt.  

We’ve all been seeing it for years, it’s a different world, where society excuses the wrong doings of others.  

When was the last time you saw a white collared CEO, or Director fired from they’re job because they are doing a BAD job?  Today, we ask them to hand in their resignation, and give them a nice big pay check to leave...how many corrupt leaders are fired?  Who do we have for role models?  What member of society, actually stands there and states...shame on you, this is wrong behavior and shun criminals....what members of society, run to the side of the victim, making certain, their violator serves a tough and just sentence for his/her crime?

There is no longer feelings of embarrassment for wrong doings…shame, except when they're caught in the act.  

There are excuses and we say, oh, well, they had a bad life…and that excuses the criminals behavior…which in turns sends a message to society that it’s ok to do break the law?

It’s not ok…and until you & me, become a victim ourselves…or loose a family member to a crime, or have your home robbed while your sleeping, in what you feel is your safe place…or your son or daughter sexually abused…or you yourself raped…beat up, or even worse, murdered….

Everyone wants police officers to protect them, and our laws to protect us…and yet, what message are we sending to our law enforcement officers & officials.  But, whose the first person we call and expect to protect us, when we're being violated?  

We as citizens of the United States have a crucial role in fighting crime…we have a responsibility to the victims of crime…we have a responsibility to raise child support and victim support…we have a responsibility to educate ourselves more on this subject so we can effectively assert a growing concern for felony offenses…convictions and sentences…we have a responsibility to talk to police officers…and our law enforcement community so we understand fully, the crucial results, realizing, the responsibility we have to one another…and remember, what effects one, affects our entire community.

Reb, what your doing is a good thing, I just wish the victims of crime were given the same respect, if not more.  They deserve it, they didn't break any law...they were victims...violated, raped, robbed, embarrassed, their entire being depleated.  Now they live in fear...and mixed emotions about just how safe they really are...why aren't we trying to fix that?  


Iliana:  Many thanks...tougher laws in my opinion, doesn't mean the death sentence, it means getting repeated offenders off the streets longer....maybe even for life, depending on their crime...setting examples probably won't deter each and every law breaker, but...it certainly will help.  What is wrong with fearing a consequence for our actions...

I'm afraid Iliana, we haven't seen tough laws for quit a lot of years...

I know for a fact, there are many out there driving without drivers licenses, insurance, and cannot even read English...and our laws prohibit any police officer asking if these people are American Citizens.  

So, as long as we as American's continue to support double standards, and breaking the law, crime will rise...as there will be no sense of respect for the law...anything goes, yanno?


Ron
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39 posted 10-03-2006 10:36 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
... what I don’t understand is how members of a community can have more empathy for criminals the victims of crime.

It's not an either/or situation, Lee. Or, at least it shouldn't be for those uninterested in retribution. The next time you decide to drive too fast you might find yourself unable to stop in time when a twelve-year-old veers her bike into the road. I can say, without qualification or hesitation, I will feel just as sorry for you and I will for the child. I don't have to hate one in order to love the other. And perhaps more to the point, I don't have to promote hate under a guise of promoting love.

quote:
… we have a responsibility to educate ourselves more on this subject

quote:
... setting examples probably won't deter each and every law breaker, but...it certainly will help.

No, it doesn't help, Lee. And if you educated yourself more on the subject you'd already know that.

I wasn't citing Texas figures to find out how you feel about the death penalty, Lee. It was, rather, an example of harsh penalties that have utterly failed to deter crime. I doubt there is any state, and probably not too many countries, that is harsher on criminals than is Texas. To what effect? Read the numbers again, Lee. Texas is in the top half for virtually every crime statistic available. They kill people, for God's sake, taking one or two lives every week for more than two decades, and yet they still haven't scared their citizens into abandoning murder as a solution?

Sorry, but no, setting examples does not help deter crime. It just makes people like you feel good that you're doing something useful. You're imagining a cause and effect that has never been established, in hopes of finding a simple solution to a problem that is more daunting than anything quantum physics has to offer. Indeed, I think even seeing it as "a" problem is probably an illusion. When you lump all crimes, all criminals, all victims, all consequences and end results, into a single thread the only possible result is a quagmire of confusion. We're talking about people, Lee. People ain't simple.

I don't pretend to have the answers (though I certainly have a few opinions). All I can really say with any degree of certainty is that all the easy solutions have already been tried and found wanting. It doesn't make sense to keep coming back to them in hopes they'll perhaps work better in Pennsylvania than they have in Texas.


LeeJ
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40 posted 10-03-2006 12:12 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Hey Ron
Morning

Geeze, I'm not trying to promote hate, or asking you to do so, more so promote awareness about crime, there must be consequences for actions no?  When we raise our children we scold them for wrong doings, do we not?

And I thank you for the kind thoughts about your senerio for me driving to fast and me hitting a child...but if I do, and it happens, I've broken the law, and I should by all means I should be punished.  Didn't that used to be called involentary manslaughter?  I'm not sure.  Yes, it would be devistating, horrible and the guilt of taking someone's life would be costly...but are you saying I shouldn't be punished by law for such?  For breaking the law?

And I don't feel good about doing something useful Ron, I feel obligated to a responsiblity to "try" and make our home a safer place to live...

Setting example is only part of a solution and does help deter crime, even if you deter one person from picking up a gun and killing someone, then you've helped.  And by setting examples, you instil a respect for the law.  People must fear breaking the law...people must understand it's not ok to do so....

I don't have all the answers either, but I do know, my son's life is in the hands of our communities...

And by the way, I'm wondering if any one knows how many police officers are killed each year, by speeders, while they have stopped to help an accident, or have stopped a car on suspition or for speeding?
I'm hoping everyone keeps that in mind, next time we tend to put the petal to the metal.

Thanks Ron...for your input...

greatly appreciate

Ron
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41 posted 10-03-2006 02:03 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
...but are you saying I shouldn't be punished by law for such?  For breaking the law?

Yes, you should be punished for breaking the law, Lee. No, you shouldn't be crucified as an example to everyone else behind a steering wheel. Because in spite of what you keep insisting, it doesn't work. It hasn't worked in Texas, it won't work in Pennsylvania, and sadly, it doesn't seem to keep people from going that extra ten or twenty miles per hour, either.


LeeJ
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42 posted 10-04-2006 08:36 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Hey Ron
Good Morning

I beg to differ and heres why...
When we were younger, laws were strict, parents were strict, if we were repromanded by the teachers, our parents backed the teachers...

Then, we didn't have to lock our doors or take our keys out of the car...we feared getting into trouble...and you certainly didn't hear about the multiple violent crimes you hear about now, and so close to home for all of us.  

Yes, there were gangs, yes, there was crime, but no, crime surely wasn't as rampid as now.  

We feared and respected the police...we would have never thought to spit on them....communities were friendlier, and if another parent in the community yelled at a kid, that kids parents were behind that neighbor all the way.  

Everything was strict...children were raised to respect the property of others, and if they drove through communities with their radios blarring, didn't take long for our parents to find out and boy did we get it.

We were taught that crime was against the law...then, laws were different, and if someone broke the law, we all knew there were consequences for breaking that law.

Today, anything goes, today, the laws are bent by attorneys, political figures, immigration...today, it's ok to break the law, and when people around that person breaking the law see another person doing so, they keep quiet about it?

Its a different world Ron, all the way around...there are fewer people who respect the law...and bend the laws to suit their needs.  

When laws were strickt, it was different...people didn't play games with the police...more people obeyed speed laws...the property of others, and the lives of others.  

And today, with all the pornogrophy and movies with sexual content, kids want to experiment, b/c those movies and internet sites send a message that it's ok to act out.  Its ok to have sex be a goal to success....

then there is the violence, sends the same message.  

Different world, different views...and it seems people today are afraid to stand up and say, yanno, I was wrong...instead, excuses are made for wrong doing.  

It worked back then Ron, it did.  

Lest we forget, Texas is one state that all the immigrants are flocking to.  Some of them are great people, some are hard core criminals...

I disagree...man by nature, needs laws to govern him by...and if laws become lienant, then all else become chaotic.  I disagree, it does work and it did work once...upon a time, we certainly then, did not have the amount of crime that exists today...

Another point is, unless parents once again become concerned with discipline and teaching their kids respect, that is another formula for crime.  

Just my opinion...
Ron
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43 posted 10-04-2006 01:30 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
When we were younger, laws were strict, parents were strict, if we were repromanded by the teachers, our parents backed the teachers...

I don't think the laws were any more strict fifty years ago than they are today, Lee, but even if I gave you that point . . . if you honestly believe that's the only thing that's changed, you're living in a fantasy.

Sorry, but you're going to have to dig a bit deeper to establish cause and effect than simple temporal adjacency, I'm afraid. When you and I were younger we were also subject to polio vaccines -- maybe THAT is why we didn't lock our doors?

(To be honest, in my neighborhood growing up, you locked the doors, drew the shades, and still slept with a baseball bat close at hand. City life then wasn't greatly different than city life now. Maybe you just need to move to a small, rural community, Lee.)


LeeJ
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44 posted 10-04-2006 02:22 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

hehe, maybe your right...
the community I lived in was awesome, safe, and rural.  Farm town, yanno...   we were lucky kids...very lucky

thanks Ron
Balladeer
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45 posted 10-04-2006 03:23 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I don't think the laws were any more strict fifty years ago than they are today

Now there is an amazing statement. Not only were the laws more strict, their interpretations were clearer and PARENTS were more strict.

Believe it or not, in my high school I never saw or even heard of anyone smoking weed. Any disrespect to a teacher got you sent home immediately. The pledge of  allegiance was recited and no one complained about the Under God part. No one minded where Christmas decorations were placed and carols were sung for the Christmas play. If you broke the law you really felt like you would be punished. No, I'm not looking at the past through rose-colored glasses or chanting the old mantra "things  were better in my day". That's just the way it was. People didn't run to lawyers every chance they got and more people spent time doing for themselves than expecting handouts from the government. Policemen were respected, as was the president, no matter which party he belonged to. Maybe laws were not stricter but laws were more respected and followed and morality was on a higher level.

Baseball players didn't have agents, either, and their lawyers didn't show up for contract talks.
Ron
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46 posted 10-04-2006 06:02 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Maybe laws were not stricter but laws were more respected and followed and morality was on a higher level.

You should have started with your conclusion, Mike. Attitudes were, indeed, different forty or fifty years ago. No argument. My point all along has been that you're not going to roll back the clock by trying to treat the symptoms.

When we nostalgically opine that laws were more respected in the past perhaps we should also be reminded that respect is something that is earned, not forced? So what has changed?
Balladeer
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47 posted 10-04-2006 09:25 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LOL! I'm not sure Passions has enough bandwidth to hold my answer to that one but I'll get back to ya
Local Rebel
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48 posted 10-05-2006 06:00 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Believe it or not, in my high school I never saw or even heard of anyone smoking weed. Any disrespect to a teacher got you sent home immediately. The pledge of  allegiance was recited and no one complained about the Under God part. No one minded where Christmas decorations were placed and carols were sung for the Christmas play. If you broke the law you really felt like you would be punished.



And the coloreds didn't complain about sitting in the back of the bus and women knew their place was in the home, barefoot and pregnant. And gay still meant happy.

No... no one is looking through rose colored glasses at all!
LeeJ
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49 posted 10-05-2006 07:00 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

quote:
Believe it or not, in my high school I never saw or even heard of anyone smoking weed. Any disrespect to a teacher got you sent home immediately. The pledge of  allegiance was recited and no one complained about the Under God part. No one minded where Christmas decorations were placed and carols were sung for the Christmas play. If you broke the law you really felt like you would be punished. No, I'm not looking at the past through rose-colored glasses or chanting the old mantra "things  were better in my day". That's just the way it was. People didn't run to lawyers every chance they got and more people spent time doing for themselves than expecting handouts from the government. Policemen were respected, as was the president, no matter which party he belonged to. Maybe laws were not stricter but laws were more respected and followed and morality was on a higher level.

Baseball players didn't have agents, either, and their lawyers didn't show up for contract talks.


Hey Mike, we went to the same school!!!!  You Never told me you lived in PA!!!!  

So good to know, I'm not alone!  Whewww!!!

Nope, no rose colored glasses Reb...it's how things were

quote:
You should have started with your conclusion, Mike. Attitudes were, indeed, different forty or fifty years ago. No argument. My point all along has been that you're not going to roll back the clock by trying to treat the symptoms.

When we nostalgically opine that laws were more respected in the past perhaps we should also be reminded that respect is something that is earned, not forced? So what has changed?


No one is forcing respect on anyone, it's about something that has been lost...I'm shocked it's still in the dictionary?

Trying to treat the symptoms Ron are quick fixes...it wouldn't take a quick fix to correct what we've done to this country in the last 30 - 40 years...When money becomes a reason for decissions, and it has...attorneys are the ones to come out on top...

When resect for oneself is lost, respect for anyone or anything else is lost...and man, we've lost words like respect, consideration for others, lack of enthusiasum for responsiblity not to oneself but to others.

Heck, how can anyone, stand in a public place and hold a very very personal conversation on their cell phone about their boyfriend, or a family member, when others are trying to unwind from the stress of the day??????  And that is perfectaly acceptable...what ever happened to consideration for others?

We've lost a concept of understanding that all our decissions, actions, words... do not just effect us, but an entire community...and it seems when money is involved in making decissions, we'll folks there goes the neighborhood

Has anyone looked at daytime TV lately?  Frankly it sucks, and what programs stay on TV dictates not only the mentality of Americans, but also they're intellectual level.  I mean, Jerry Springer and Soap Operas?  Why is everyone so interested in Gossip...sheshhh, who cares what Jalo is doing, or dating?  Don't we have anything better to do then to concern ourselves with such garbage?

Children are taught in schools that if they're spanked, that is grounds for them to call the police...there is no discipline anymore????  I know parents whose children have outright told them, "I can do anything I want to do, and if you spank me, I'll call the cops and cry abuse"??????  I would really have liked to have seen what would have happened to me, if I'd have said that????  

When we favor and/or permit freedom of action regarding laws, we advocate crime and we are all to blame for the laws changing...I really don't care how unfair we think they are, laws were scribed for a reason...you need laws to sustain and control...and if you don't respect laws then all else becomes chaotic.  

I hate to break it to you, kids, but since we were young...laws have been bent, and bent again, and again....if this were not true, crime in America, would not be as it is today. The U.S. has the highest per capita prison rate in the world with 715 people in prision per 100,000 of our population.  Recidivism (ex prisioners returning to prison after commintting more crimes) is as high as 80% in some areas.  

The annual cost of crime alone exceeds over $128 billion dollars.  

America incarcerates more people at higher rate than any other country in the world. In the decade from 1994 - 2004, U.S. prison population expanded by more than half a million people.

Daily count in U.S. prisons have surpassed 2.2 million. Over a year, more than 13.5 million people spend time in jail or in prison.

95% eventually return to their communities. 95%????  So Reb, there ya go...but is it working? And, they're are so many people in prison, there isn't enough room...so they release them....

we've become a catch and release system   hehe what?  We're not fishing?  Ohhhhh...

Between 1995 and 2000, the growth rate of prisoners housed in high-security segregation increased 40%, far higher than the growth rate of the overall prison population.

Something is wrong here, and yes, if it's not working this way, we can certainly go back to the way it was....

I'm all for trying to rehabilitate child criminals...I think it's a good thing Reb...but, in the same, those kids need to be under supervision & understand, if they break the law and screw up again, next time, there may not be an out for them....or someone who is willing to invest time, love, patience and understanding for them, to give them opportunity and a chance at a normal life. Sometimes, tough love can be very effective....not all the time, mind you, but sometimes.  

We can start by education and promoting respect for the law and law enforcement....that has to be from the parents.  

Parents today want baby sitters for their kids, cuz everyone wants the 400,000 home with accessories...and so, both parents must work.

Whose raising the kids...people who don't really become nurturing and caring towards our kids as individuals...they to, are simply doing their jobs.

I work with corporate woman who are so concerned about clothing trends & makeup, their hair, the prestige of a great expensive home with a pool in the back yard...then what kind of person they are inside, or what kind of leaders they are...or, even more, what kind of parents they are, and what they're kids are learning in day care.  And they travel???????  

We are not creating productivity within our communities...within our children...

Kids are being sexually abused, shot, and I find it absurd, that people aren't livid, they don't protest about this, shouting out at the top of their lungs.....we want change.

Why isn't there more security in our schools?  How does an unknown man walk right thru the front door with a shotgun?  Oh, I get it, since teachers picketed and got their raise, there was no money left in the kitty for security.  Teachers should be ashamed, they make how much for how many months work?  Severance pay, full paid medical benefits year round....and ya know, everytime they go on strick right after school starts, well, they should be ashamed.  I mean really.  Years ago, teachers didn't have that attitude.  

Our communities should be outraged!!!!  Every single one of us should be embarrassed and angry each time we hear on TV that another human being has been violated??????

We should be taking these crimes VERY personal, as if they have happend to us, to our children, to some one who lives next door.  

Unless you've been a victim, you have no idea of the suffering, fear, anxiety, shame, personal stagnation...not to mention the effects on that person, who might possibly grow up to be the same type of persons.

Look at what just happened in Lancaster.  

We are so inflated with ourselves, we refuse to see what is really going on.  We turn our heads and pretend it didn't happen.  I can't tell you how many times I've heard someone say, "I couldn't watch it...I turned it off, I don't watch the news"  Why????  Do we actually Think by not getting involved, pretending it didn't happen, or it won't happen to us, that it's going to go away or get better????

We are a country asleep....and we should be ashamed of ourselves every time another person is victimized.  I'm going to say again....WE as a community, have the responsiblity to PROTECT our children...make our communities safer places to live...

I see over and over again...special interest groups who buy politicans....and oft times think, If they would only take all that time, energy and know how to do something really serious for this country and attack crime...or corruption.  What I'm saying is this...all the time and money people have put into smoking bans....absolutely amazing.  Sure, it's great to go into a place and have it smoke free, but my God, what about our more serious issues?

Smoking bans, are being passed b/c it's a political season...and politicans are jumping on the band wagon to appease....b/c taking an issue like crime under wing is a whole different can of beans...they would arouse way to many corrupt people...and so smoking bans seems to be a way of appeasing.  

I'm not against smoking bans...I just really and honestly believe, it is not time and money well spent.  But that's another thread...I'm simply using it as an example.

I shake my head in disgust sometimes....when I hear people say..."Oh, it was so horrible, I couldn't watch it"  Well, that attitude is exactly what is causing more and more crime.  

Have any threads been started in here concerning Foley?????  

This man is under investigation for relationships with TEENS...CHILDREN?????  
Does this disgust anyone????  Are those same special interest groups hounding our government to get these people out of office.  Is it to much to expect law abiding moral leaders....and frankly, I don't really care if he's democrate or republican, what I care about is...that this man, as an individual has broken the law....and if you break the law...there should be consequences according to the severity of the crime.  

That is how you control crime...by abiding by the laws.  I don't care who you are, the pope, the President of the U.S., an illegal immigrant...a politician...if you break the laws which are on the books, then you don't deserve to have the same rights that law abiding citizens have.  

If you abuse a child...by God, you should be put away for good....where you will never be able to touch another child.  If you murder someone, in cold blood, with a weapon, with intent to kill...you deserve to be put away for good!  

Until we realize, that these people are not productive to society, who harbor no respect for the law of life...or themselves....who harbor no feelings of guilt or fear for their actions....
we will continue to grow criminals who will continue to violate us.

Citizens of the United States have to wake up...or else, these law breaking people...will continue to violate our rights.

Laws on the books were not meant to be bent or broken...because someone has it rough.

We've got to stop making excuses for the actions of someone and simply say...this person does not belong in society, this person needs to be under constant supervison, for the rest of their lives...cuz if they are not, next time, it could be you, or someone in your family.

I wish, every American Citizen, would today, put themselves in the shoes of those parents in Lancaster PA, who are putting their children to rest...and pretend, for one moment, that is your child...and then do that every single time you hear a news report about a mass murdering animal.  

yanno, we talk about terror...and fear another attack...and yet, are we any safer from criminals...they to, in their own being are terrorists.....

I'm not trying to breed hate, just stating facts and trying to raise awareness....

Crime is a violation of laws...and if we sit back and continue...we all are responsible, we all will eventually be affected by this....

God bless the cop, who turned his son in for robbery.  I know that must have been the most difficult thing in his entire life for him to do...and God bless the boys (who are cops) who turned their father for theft...to me, they are the true citizens who should be leaders, and most certainly role models.  

They are the ones whose faces should be on the front pages of magazines...

Why isn't child pornography taken off any web site immediately????????  Because it sells...cold hard facts...to permit such a thing, makes me want to vomit.  I cannot believe our coutry tollerats such a thing, not to mention allows it?????  Where are we headed?

Oh yeah, you can turn the clocks back...absolutely, and it will happen I'm sure, just not in my lifetime or yours, but somewhere along the line, people are going to get good and sick of it, and when people get angry, thats when they stick together and changes are made.  It takes people with goals, people who want to leave this place a little better for their kids....people who have to stop concering themselves with material success, and trends, and start concerning themselves with our mental environment, our spiritual beings...our moral traditions...and stop being so darned liberal and excusing bad behavior.

One more thing, the town I grew up in, was then, filled with law abiding citizens...people who respected their community, and worked together...It was a reality...yes, there was crime, small stuff...but nothing like today...

It could be like that again, if we'd only get our heads out of the sand and work together, stand together...instead of thinking loving the criminal, excusing the criminal is going to make this problem go away.  

Call it biased, but I'd prefer to stand by the victims...and fight for them...that to me, is what my heart says is the right thing to do.  

The criminal lost his/her rights when they took the life of that child, or beat up that old woman for a measly 20 bucks...or raped a child and buried her alive...I'm sorry, but I feel no sympathy for that person who took away a precious life...who violated trust and innocence.  Who now, has effected an entire family for the rest of their lives....

My girlfriends cousin was murdered...his father turned into an alcoholic, his brother, mentally feared going outside...his mother slipped into deep depression...so it's not just about the victim, but an entire family and until we become a nation that realizes that, we will continue to be individulists that strive more for corruption, then for moral obligations to our communities.

Sincerely
Lee J.









[This message has been edited by LeeJ (10-05-2006 08:37 AM).]

 
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