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Balladeer
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0 posted 09-16-2006 10:28 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer


As a protest to the Pope referringto their religion as violent, muslim estremist groups burned five churches in the  West Bank and threatened to send suicide bombers to the Vatican.

Is it just me or does that sound like a Saturday Night Live skit???
Mistletoe Angel
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1 posted 09-16-2006 10:35 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

I feel another major South Park episode coming on.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Not A Poet
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2 posted 09-17-2006 09:23 AM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

If nothing else, it does go to proving the Pope's point.
Mistletoe Angel
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3 posted 09-17-2006 02:23 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

We have to be careful here not to lump the more moderate Muslims in with these extremists who certainly are responsible for these burning of churches and such.

I don't think the Pope was at all intending or meaning to demonize the religion of Islam in whole, but all the same I believe there is mass misunderstanding of the Islamic faith (polls show those with little or no understanding of Islam are far more likely to disapprove of the religion and believe it promotes violence, while those with a greater understanding are far more likely to approve of Islam) and I fear discrimination and prejudice toward the Islamic community is well-alive in our current world, and we need to remember that much of the Middle East is being riddled by extremist factions of their faith, while the moderates are largely absent and removed from the positions of power.

So when we say things like what the Pope said, or other things I've heard elsewhere along the line of "The muslim community in typical fashion" or "the unprovoked violence the muslim community has caused throughout the world", we need to be severely careful because when any Muslim hears that, that Muslim may think we're not referring to just the extremists, but that we're referring to everyone in the Islamic faith, including moderates and those that believe in our nation's cause for democracy in the Middle East, and that will only severely hurt our relations for generations to come and undermine our genuine cause in spreading democratic institutions to the region.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Local Rebel
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4 posted 09-17-2006 03:09 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Pete, doesn't the Pope's action go to prove the extremists point too?
Balladeer
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5 posted 09-17-2006 06:09 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

No, it has nothing to do with the moderate Muslims, Noah. The extremists will find whatever they can parade to incite the masses, just like the cartoons. This will not be the last excuse for a cause to promote their hatred for their own purposes.
Ron
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6 posted 09-17-2006 06:55 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

You might be right, Mike. Then again, you might be wrong.

Haven't you ever wondered what the British were saying, oh, around 1773, when those extremists in the Colonies started destroying private property (tea, no less!) with no legitimate provocation? Maybe they, too, assumed it was just another excuse to promote hatred?

I don't believe anyone ever hates for no reason at all. Sometimes, people hate for frivolous reasons or wrong reasons, but I honestly believe there are always reasons. Hate is an effect, not a cause. At some point, it might be wise to dig a little deeper and find the true causes. You can bet the British eventually wished they had.
Balladeer
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7 posted 09-17-2006 08:05 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Haven't you ever wondered what the British were saying, oh, around 1773, when those extremists in the Colonies started destroying private property (tea, no less!) with no legitimate provocation? Maybe they, too, assumed it was just another excuse to promote hatred?

Ron, you have outdone yourself with your comparisons...and that was no easy feat.
Balladeer
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8 posted 09-17-2006 08:24 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I don't believe the extremists necessarily hate. I believe what they do intentionally is to PROMOTE hate....to create hate. Why? The oldest reason in the world....quest for personal power. They tell others THEY should hate. They interpret their religious writings for their followers in a way that makes enemies of anyone outside their faith....enemies to be eliminated. They look for ways to promote this hate such as this last example. The people who DO hate do so out of ignorance and blind faith in their leaders. I'll wager that the educated and rational Muslim does not buy into what the extremists preach. We have certainly had enough of them in this country denouncing the terrorists and proclaiming that that is not what their religion is all about. Unfortunately there are many of the uneducated who WILL believe and follow and allow themselves to be led into hatred.

Don't believe that the leaders of the extremist groups are fueled by hatred. They know exactly what they are doing....
Not A Poet
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9 posted 09-17-2006 08:45 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

quote:
Pete, doesn't the Pope's action go to prove the extremists point too?

What would that point be?
Local Rebel
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10 posted 09-17-2006 10:02 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Hundreds of Iranians demonstrated against the pope in cities across
Iran. In Qom, the religious capital of Iran's 70 million Shiite Muslims, hard-line cleric Ahmad Khatami said the pope and
President Bush were "united in order to repeat the Crusades."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060918/ap_on_re_eu/pope_muslims

Balladeer
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11 posted 09-17-2006 10:21 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

hundreds of people go to the bowling alley down the street every night

call to arms by a hard-line cleric? Proves my point....
Ron
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12 posted 09-17-2006 11:12 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I believe what they do intentionally is to PROMOTE hate....to create hate.

I stand corrected, Mike. That is, indeed, what you said earlier, and yea, that's quite a bit different than what I read. My bad.  

quote:
Why? The oldest reason in the world....quest for personal power.

And is that what they are telling the people to whom they are promoting the hate?

Of course not. The people who feel the hate -- and who, not incidentally, perform the acts of terror -- are given reasons to hate. The reasons don't necessarily have to be valid ones (maybe someone lied to them about WMD?), but they have to be understood. In an ideal world, they might even be countered?

You want to read a really bad story or narrative poem? Find one with a villain who is evil. One-dimensional characters, whether they wear a white hat or a black one, are boring. Why? Because we intuitively know they're not realistic. Even people who quest for personal power, say perhaps by running for President, do so for a myriad of reasons. Most, I think, believe they are honestly helping to create a better world, even as they lie to everyone in hopes of instilling fear and hate. Villains, real villains, are almost always just people who have convinced themselves that the end justifies the means. The secret to understanding them, I think, is to look beyond the means and try to see why their particular end is so important to them.

Demonizing the enemy makes it so much easier to fight a war. It's not always, however, the best way to win a war.


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13 posted 09-17-2006 11:43 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Does it really matter whether or not Hitler actually, personally hated Jews?

Proving your point is not very likely Mike. Until there is a way to deliver a printout of what is in someone's head anyway -- until then we have to judge people's actions as indication of thier beliefs/thoughts.

But to the extremists -- the Pope helped prove thiers with his remarks.

Does it prove a point at all that the majority of the Muslim world has pretty much thanked the Pope for (sort of) apologizing and said it's not a big deal?  
Balladeer
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14 posted 09-18-2006 12:14 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

...and will that majority of Muslims rebuild the burned churches or protect the Vatican against suicide bombers it is threatened with? It is not the majority that is in question...

Balladeer
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15 posted 09-18-2006 12:32 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ron, a bad story with a one-dimentional character? You mean like Hannibal Lector, Freddy Krueger, Jason, Michael Myers or Bluebeard, perhaps?

No, one need not demonize but one needs to recognize the evil exists. Ok, let's not call it evil. Let's call it the ultimate goal of the subject. Then, when you have determined that Hitler committed his atrocities because Jews had treated him badly as a child, or he received a calling telling him he was destined to rule the world, or whatever other information you come up with, THEN you take him out because you are not going to shake him from his position. The The same holds true for the terrorist leaders. Whether they are in it for the pure power and financial gain of their position or whether their true hatred of Jews and democratic countries fuels them, you are not going to talk them out of it. Possibly you could talk the citizens out of it.....except you can't get to them and their leaders will continue coming up with things like the cartoons, the Pope, the new "crusade" plotted against them, whatever it takes to keep them incensed. Once the terrorist leaders are gone, THEN you have a chance for positive change....not before.
Ron
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16 posted 09-18-2006 01:58 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
You mean like Hannibal Lector, Freddy Krueger, Jason, Michael Myers or Bluebeard, perhaps?  

C'mon, Mike. Are you really going to argue that Freddy and Jason represent good stories? They give us nothing but a ride on a great roller coaster without the attendant danger of vomiting in our date's lap.

quote:
Once the terrorist leaders are gone, THEN you have a chance for positive change....not before.

I sincerely hope you're wrong, Mike, because the terrorist leaders aren't ever going to be gone. Like the Hydra of Greek legend, cutting off one head only results in the growth of two to take its place. It is not the leaders who give the people their purpose, but the people who give the leaders their power. Until the terrorist leaders start strapping bombs to their chests, you're worrying about the wrong enemy. Convince the people and the leaders will meet their Hercules.

Sure, right now the leaders are doing all the convincing, just as you say. I'm surprised, however, you would so quickly admit defeat, giving them that battle without so much as a good fight. Are the only conflicts we can win the ones fought with missiles and American blood? Why do you believe we can't meet them toe to toe, in their own arena, and survive past the first round? Is it perhaps because that kind of fight would first require us to actually understand something of what is at issue for both sides?

I'm sorry, Michael, but I fail to see how the hate you're promoting is vastly different than the hate they're promoting. They hate us. You hate them. Mutually assured destruction. And why? Because both sides were convinced the other side hates them. It absolutely astounds me that people can't see something wrong with that picture.


Balladeer
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17 posted 09-18-2006 02:02 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

C'mon, Mike. Are you really going to argue that Freddy and Jason represent good stories?

LOL! Certainly not in the literary sense but Hannibal's story won the Oscar, Freddy had at least 6 sequels, Jason had 13. Millions of people went to watch them. Trick or treaters donned their costumes. Your contention is that pure evil presents a boring character...a lot of people certainly weren't bored by them....and I even left out Vlad the Impaler and Al Capone!    

I sincerely hope you're wrong, Mike, because the terrorist leaders aren't ever going to be gone.

A strange sentence from one accusing me of so quickly admitting defeat. I happen to believe, or at least hope, they will. One could have said the same of Hitler. Eliminate him and another would take his place....didn't happen. We certainly DO agree on the fact that it is the people who give them the power. How do you stop that? I'm sure, going back to Hitler, there were millions of Germans who did not agree with Hitler's Jew extermination tactics? Did they do anything? No. Look at Iraq. Although it may physically pain you   to think so, many good things have been done in Iraq. A dictator who murdered millions of them at his whim, public executions, secret torture prisons, ethnic cleansing...has been eliminated. Tens of millions of dollars have gone into public works, infrastructure, and the like. They have their own government and are rebuilding their own military. They are not ungrateful. As one man said on TV who has  lost a good friend in a suicide bomb attack, things are not good now but it's better than when Hussein was in power. Now the country is plagued with suicide bombers and terrorist tactics that are aimed at the IRAQI population. Are they, these people who would bring down Hercules, doing anything about it? No....and for the same reasons the Germans didn't - the terrorist have the firepower. Do you see even any peaceful demonstrations condemning the terrorist actions? No....not there or anywhere else. They are quiet out of fear and they will remain quiet out of fear for as long as the terrorist leaders are in power.

Toe to toe in their own arena? With what plan of action? You can't get to the part of the arena you need to be in.....the grandstands, where the people are. LR made a very logical comment earlier about winning over the population, especially the younger generation, who will be tomorrow's leaders. Sounds good.....how? Do you think they are going to let you? Do you think they will accept allowing the people to know that America is not a bad place and they want to be their friends? Syria going to allow you to go in and set up YMCA's and shelters for the homeless?  Al-Jazeera going to print articles on the generosity of the American people, when they are not busy showing footage of every new Bin Laden tape that comes out? We have spent tens of millions in foreign aid the the Middle East. Several years ago,we sent tons of food to an African country in the midst of a famine. What happened? The food sat in trucks until it went bad based on the leaders claiming that America had sent them unsafe food to kill them.Colin Powell was boo'd at the UN for bringing it up.  Now the terrorists and Muslim leaders are telling the people that Bush and the Pope are trying to initiate a new Crusade, to rid the world of Muslims. Even with your dim view of Bush, I don't think you believe that one....but people will. If you go into that arena, be prepared to be ushered to the main ring and with your hands and feet tied with a gag over your mouth. If you think you can win under those circumstances, be my guest. I agree that, if we could sit down with the people for a sincere exchange of views and in a promotion of understanding, good could be done. The problem is that Cerberus is guarding the door.

I'm sorry, Michael, but I fail to see how the hate you're promoting is vastly different than the hate they're promoting

I challenge you, Ron, to show anywhere I have promoted hatred. I HAVE stated that they are an evil that must be eliminated for any peaceful results to have a chance for success. I have never claimed to either hate them or try to convince others to do so. I kill bugs. I don't hate them when I do it. Hatred does not figure into it, either with the bugs or the terrorists. If I get the flu, I don't hate the flu. I simply take the necessary steps to counterract it. Your accusation is unfounded.

They hate us. You hate them. Mutually assured destruction. And why? Because both sides were convinced the other side hates them.

This morning the leader of Al Qada in Iraq stated, "People have two choices - convert to Islam or die."  Gee, why would I read that and think they hate non-Muslims? You think YOU'RE  astounded? I'm FLABBERGHASTED that people cannot see something wrong with THAT picture and not recognize it for what it is.
.
.


CAIRO, Egypt - Al-Qaida in Iraq warned
Pope Benedict XVI on Monday that its war against Christianity and the West will go on until Islam takes over the world


We need to try harder to understand them? I understand very well....

[This message has been edited by Balladeer (09-18-2006 06:03 PM).]

iliana
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18 posted 09-19-2006 02:53 AM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

"This morning the leader of Al Qada in Iraq stated, "People have two choices - convert to Islam or die."  Gee, why would I read that and think they hate non-Muslims? You think YOU'RE  astounded? I'm FLABBERGHASTED that people cannot see something wrong with THAT picture and not recognize it for what it is."

Mike, I think you just agreed with Ron here -- key word, "leader."  It's the leaders saying that.  The people simply follow what they think will provide them with the best chance of survival.  Eliminate the need for people to follow radicals and you have defeated terrorism.  Eliminate the current foreign policy of arming both sides and then going in and destroying the society, and perhaps fences can be mended.  Also, the UN ought to make a special military task force to eliminate gunrunners.  Want to see a great movie?  I suggest you watch the movie, The Lord of War, http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0399295/ .  It will really make you stop and think about what really causes the destruction of societies.  It isn't about religion.  It is about power.  Religion is the propganda tool on both sides of this war, and it seems to be working really well, unfortunately.  Of course, that is simplied, but it is the truth.  

Unfortunately, until radical religions (which is still about power) are discontinued as a means of education, there will still be a problem.  When people begin to see no need to be told what to believe, the leaders in the madrasahs and masjids would not hold the power they do now; and to continue to maintain their status, they would have to change their message. So what is the solution....well, one is free nonreligious, public education.  Without a change in what youth are taught, there will never be an end to hatred.  So we should do what we can where we can that will foster that ideal.  

The whole world is getting sick of the USA's double standards on foreign policy...and that IS how they see it.  Why haven't we done more for the masses where we could have....that is what the world asks.  Why Iraq?  And, why not Dapur...or New Orleans, for that matter?  Many come to the conclusion that Iraq has oil to offer and a strategic location in the Middle East whereas Dapur....well, what's there except for poverty, starvation, and disease?

[This message has been edited by iliana (09-19-2006 03:44 AM).]

hush
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19 posted 09-19-2006 03:05 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Is Freddy Kreuger really that one-dimensional? He is a child molester who was burned to death and haunts children's dreams for the two-fold reasons of revenge and true, sick obsession. But the story, to me, is actually very interesting and the concept is very frightening. How is it that he can actually harm people through dreams? Drive teenage girls to eat coffe grounds by the spoonful? What made him a pedophile in the first place? How did it all start? How will it end?

And as for Hannibal Lector- a character that ingenius, with that photographic a memory, and a knack for riddles like his- that character would be interesting all by himself. But not only is he a serial killer, he is absolutely nuts... but with more composure that anyone I know. Is that what Clarice sees in him?

I don't think those are one-dimensional characters at all. Jason and Micheal Myers also have some identifying features, although I'm less familiar with them.

What exactly defines being one-dimensional? I don't like plenty of people becauseI think they are shallow or vapid, but I know that if I did take time to get to know them, I would eventually find something that makes them unique. I think everyone has something that motivates them, and I don't believe it is pure evil.

Food for thought.
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20 posted 09-19-2006 07:21 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

I think this is simply a case of ABC:

A The Pope
B Muslims
C The extremists

A says that B are violent and C burns down some churches, does that prove that Muslims are violent?

The problem is that C are a subset of B and consequently they get tarred with the same brush, if you need an example closer to home try this

A Grinch
B Americans
C The KKK

A says that B are racist and C burns a few churches, does that prove that Americans are racist?

If I were assigning blame based on the examples Id have to say that A and C were the guilty parties, one made a sweeping statement about a largely innocent group and the other unlawfully burnt down some churches. In both cases B are, in the main, innocent bystanders.
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21 posted 09-19-2006 09:36 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

So what is the solution....well, one is free nonreligious, public education.

Sounds good, iliana. Which cities in Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Dafur and North Korea would you choose to set up these schools? Do you think you can just go to these governments and say "We want to set up free, nonreligious public education for your youth", and be allowed to do so? I'm not meaning to belittle your reply because you say many logical things there but you offer no path as to how these things can be achieved. Yes, the keywords are "leaders" and "power". That is why I say eliminate the terrorist leaders and their power and THEN you can implement your ideas.

The whole world is getting sick of the USA's double standards on foreign policy.

Sorry, miss. I don't recognize your ability to be a spokesman for the "whole world" or educate us on what makes them sick.   It appears the reason and logic you applied to the first two paragraphs dissolved into a rant in the third but, then again, we all rant at one time or another.


Hush, I think what Ron meant by "one-dimentional" was a character with only one side - the evil side. As entertaining as freddy, Jason and the boys were, they were still the embodiment of that one dimention only - evil.  MIichael Myers has NO other identifiable features. He was, in my opinion, by far the scariest of them all and that is why the Halloween series achieved such success based on that first movie.

Nice to see you  are up on your slasher and psychological monster movies....that's ADMIRABLE!! :hatsofff:
Balladeer
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22 posted 09-19-2006 09:46 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

grinch, you are absolutely right but one of the problems is that B is an innocent bystander. If they were not bystanders they could make a change. In your second example, that happened but it has not happened in the first.

There are millions of Muslims who want peace and do not agree with the actions of the extremists. How many public demonstrations by them have you seen denouncing the terrorists and their use of their religion as an excuse to commit atrocities? Me, neither. Being bystanders does not necessarily make them innocent. They have the power to initiate change and do nothing...does that make them inocent - or guilty?
iliana
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23 posted 09-19-2006 11:05 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

"Sounds good, iliana. Which cities in Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Dafur and North Korea would you choose to set up these schools?"

Mike, ever heard of television, or Radio Free Europe....why not television, computer programs and Radio Free Middle East.  True, it would take a long time....but, consider the alternative.  I foresee for every terrorist who is cut down, two springing up in his/her place for eternity until there is noboby left but terrorists.  

I realize that television can be state controlled, but I don't think they have the where-with-all to stop internet browsing yet or radio waves.  

When we lived in Indonesia we were able to get Sesame Street, even through that state run government.  

'Course Dapur...that would require dropping radios.  And North Korea....well, there's a real problem.  I would not call their dictator a terrorist though....I would call him a dictator (who maybe tries to deal with terrorists) and I do think his people would welcome a change. Personally, I think North Korea represents a bigger threat than Iran.  

No, I cannot speak for the whole world.  But I do hear things from many of my friends abroad in Australia, NZ, Indonesia, England, Saudi Arabia, Eqypt, France and South Africa about how arrogant the USA comes across so I am not speaking from my own perspective but a consensus of those foreigners and expats I know living overseas -- particularly the expats, who have found living and traveling overseas much, much more dangerous and difficult.  And believe you me, those expats keep their ears to the ground.  

To end terrorism, the only way to end it, is to do away with the cause of it.  
iliana
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24 posted 09-19-2006 11:36 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Oops....forgot to address Lebanon.     

Do you realize, Mike, that Lebanon was on its way to being a real democracy!  The overwhelming response by Israel did not help that situation.  Now we have very angry Lebanese people (not only there displaced in Lebanon, but here in the US and the UK), who shake their heads and wonder why we did not intervene to prevent all the damage to their infrastructure, not to mention all the innocent lives lost.  And....the Hezbollah will take full advantage of that situation.  They will be the ones to provide shelter, food, medical care and faith to those once free-thinking democracy-traveling Lebanese citizens, and I suspect many of them will trade democracy for the brotherhood and care received by Hezbollah.  Even Jordan, who so far has been a friend, must be wondering about what happened there.  What Hezbollah and Hamas offer the people is what we (or their own governments) are not offering them.  

[This message has been edited by iliana (09-20-2006 12:11 AM).]

 
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