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Balladeer
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25 posted 09-20-2006 12:20 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Do you realize, Mike, that Lebanon was on its way to being a real democracy!

Are you saying that Lebanon is not on its way to becoming one now? Israel's response to Hezbollah's actions killed democracy in Lebanon? How do you know that? How many angry Lebanese people do you know who are shaking their heads wondering why the US did not intervene? Iliana, you are speaking generalities and presenting them as fact, just like talking to a few of your friends overseas somehow translates into what the whole world thinks. That's not realistic. You think North Koreans would welcome a change? Why? They have been raised to hate the United States and live in complete isolation. You blame the US for not intervening in Lebanon but criticize them for intervening anywhere else? I don't understand that. In speaking of lebanon, you fault the response of Israel, the failure of the US not to intervene.....nothing about the actions of Hezbollah.

shelter, food, medical care and faith to those once free-thinking democracy-traveling Lebanese citizens

So you are stating they are not that now?....that somehow all that has been erased because Israel responded and we did not intervene? I just don't understand how you can reach the conclusions you do....but I do know that whatever conclusions you reach seems to paint the United States as the  bad guy and i wonder why.

To end terrorism, the only way to end it, is to do away with the cause of it.  

Bravo! I agree completely. The cause of it is the power-hungry terrorist leaders who use religion to foster it, as you have also stated in this thread. Do away with them and end it.

What Hezbollah and Hamas offer the people is what we (or their own governments) are not offering them.  

Yes, Hezbollah offered the Lebanese people the opportunity to be bombed by Israel for their actions. What WE are not offering them? We should be making offers to the Lebanese people now? What exactly was the US supposed to offer them? Again, it's our fault.
Juju
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26 posted 09-20-2006 12:49 AM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Irregardless who is right and who is wrong. holy poeple don't burn churches and intelligent poeple should know better then to incourage malaice behavior.

-Juju

-<>-~-<>-~-<>-  
*    Juju     *
-<>-~-<>-~-<>-
iliana
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since 12-05-2003
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27 posted 09-20-2006 01:02 AM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

"You blame the US for not intervening in Lebanon but criticize them for intervening anywhere else? I don't understand that. In speaking of lebanon, you fault the response of Israel, the failure of the US not to intervene.....nothing about the actions of Hezbollah."

I believe the U.S. could have put pressure on Israel to temper its response.  I believe the Hizbollah was in the wrong to start things and please do not put me on the side of the terrorist just because I see how they are able to grow in power.  And yes, they should have been stopped and shouldn't have taken the prisoners.  But, I also believe that Israel's drastic measures have only made them more enemies than they had before and because the Middle East associates them with U.S., we've got more enemies than we had before. www.debka.com  (an Israeli news service) reports that the leader of the Hizbollah was at the Presidential palace...under the protection of the President of Lebanon...and that they (Israel) considered taking out the Presidential Palace.  Thank goodness they didn't...that's all I can say.  With the UN intervention now, perhaps Lebanon's road to democracy can be rebuilt.  Lebanon was in a very vulnerable state when this happened...just getting out of being under Damascus' thumb.  Now, I fear, the people of Lebanon are less likely to trust the West and more likely to sympathize with terrorists.  No, I cannot speak authoritatively, Mike, it is just my opinion and logic, just like you have yours.  The difference in the way we think is that I am firmly convinced that violence only leads to more violence....war only leads to more war.  The root of terrorism is not terrorism....it is a war over an idea and that is what has to be fought.  

This has all gone very off track of the thread's intent.  Sorry.  

Juju, I agree...but nor do holy people burn Masjids and Temples....soldiers, however, do...and sometimes they believe they are fighting holy wars...take the Crusades, for instance.  

Note to Mike....you may really like that website as it agrees with you.  

[This message has been edited by iliana (09-20-2006 03:22 AM).]

Balladeer
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28 posted 09-20-2006 06:33 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

You are right, iliana....an interesting website. It is interesting that a country so on the road to democracy has a president who hides a terrorist leader responsible for his country being bombed in his presidential palace under orders from another terrorist country. I don't see much of a road to democracy there you referred to.

The crusades? Absolutely and don't forget the Spanish Inquisition or the Salem witch trials. History is filled with examples of atrocities conducted under the name of Christianity. Does that make Christians evil? No, just as the muslim history does not brand all muslims as evil. If a muslim holy leader would have come out and referred to the Crusades as a rebuttal and Catholic extremists had then gone out and burned mosques and threatened the holy leaders with death, what reaction do you think we would have seen? I'll tell you one thing i believe to be certain. Catholics would have risen up to condemn those extremists who committed the actions. We see no such demonstration from the muslim world and that's not a good sign.

Juju is right. Holy people do not burn churches. It's as simple as that. Terrorists do and that's what is present here. For the rest of the muslim world to  fail to denounce these terrorists committing atrocities under the name of their religion is a very unnerving indication of how far away actual peace betwee the two could be.

Oh, and for the record, I would never put you on the side of the terrorists. I find a few of your ideas like dropping radios into dafur a little off the beaten path but at least you are giving a lot of thought to whatever alternatives or plans of action one could use to combat terroristic influences and I find that admirable.
rhia_5779
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29 posted 09-20-2006 11:02 AM       View Profile for rhia_5779   Email rhia_5779   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rhia_5779

he whole world is getting sick of the USA's double standards on foreign policy...and that IS how they see it.  Why haven't we done more for the masses where we could have....that is what the world asks.  Why Iraq?  And, why not Dapur...or New Orleans, for that matter?  Many come to the conclusion that Iraq has oil to offer and a strategic location in the Middle East whereas Dapur....well, what's there except for poverty, starvation, and disease?

illiana i agree wiht you completely on the above bit. there were plenty other countries that could have used our more than Iraq did.

about the muslim moderates who are on the sides, why they aren't condemming the extremists may have something to do with the fact that as you have said your own self, they are threatening death to their people, if they will threaten death to the hundred thousands of people who won't convert think what they may do to their own people who protest them????????????

As for Darfur not Darpur there it is less a people dictator situation as it is a rebel group recking havoc and genocide.  Doing stuff with the gov won't help much unless they stop defending the Janjaweed, we could send in aid and money there and support oxfam more
Grinch
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30 posted 09-20-2006 03:07 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
grinch, you are absolutely right but one of the problems is that B is an innocent bystander. If they were not bystanders they could make a change.


You maybe right Mike, they could be classed as guilty of doing nothing, of course using the same logic the US is just as guilty in the cases where they could help other countries but don’t.

I’d rather believe the inaction in both cases is born of necessity rather than malice, the US applies resources where they believe the need is most pressing and where the results have a clear and positive effect on Americans, Muslims, being people, act in the exactly the same way.

Juju
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31 posted 09-20-2006 03:22 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Unfortunitly, If we stop medeling it doesn't meen others will do to.  Terrist Have their ajenda and we have ours.  It is easy to forget that.  I think the question is how do we stop falling in to their traps and when do we have them stepping into their own.

-Juju

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*    Juju     *
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Balladeer
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32 posted 09-20-2006 05:37 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

You maybe right Mike, they could be classed as guilty of doing nothing, of course using the same logic the US is just as guilty in the cases where they could help other countries but don’t.

Sorry, Grinch, but you missed the point, I'm afraid. There is no relationship between the two. In the case of the muslims, THEIR country is suffering - THEIR friends and family are being killed by terrorists - THEIR religion is getting a bad rap....and all because the people that THEY allow to have the power stay in power because THEY will not stand up and speak out against them. That has no comparison with one country helping another. They need to help THEMSELVES. That's the issue.
Ron
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33 posted 09-20-2006 07:03 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Ahh, then you finally admit, Mike, that we had no business at all invading Iraq? It was up to the people, not us, to get rid of their dictator?

More seriously (because, yes, that was tongue-in-cheek), it's difficult, I think, to apply American standards to other countries. Demonstrating in protest is very much an American thing that doesn't always translate well to other cultures. As Rhia already hinted, Chinese students who tried it in Tiananmen Square found it less than effective.

It's rarely easy to change people's minds. Forty years ago, militant black groups were convinced that white Americans feared and hated them. Like you, Mike, they saw nothing that could ever really change that, nothing that wasn't "too little too late." Sadly, I think they were partially right, but I hope history has shown they were mostly wrong. It's not easy to stop seeing someone as your enemy, but it is possible. I think the very first step in convincing someone you don't hate them is stop hating them. The people of the Middle East have valid complaints against America. The terrorist leaders, I think, have only taken advantage of the tools we have given them, and we only play into their hands every time we (or our allies) ignore and compound the people's complaints.


Grinch
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34 posted 09-20-2006 07:14 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


No need to apologise Mike.

The US gives aid to other countries based on benefit to THEIR country measured against the possible risks – that’s human nature and not surprisingly the Muslims do exactly the same. If the punishment for speaking out against your governments policies is death the sensible thing to do is weigh the possible benefits and risks. If you do that the best course of action is not speaking out or inaction.

If helping another country involves putting thousands of your own countrymen at risk the benefits have to be fairly substantial – stability in an oil producing region or removing the threat of future devastating attacks on your homeland. If those benefits don’t exist the best course of action is inaction.

I agree that if the downtrodden Muslims rose up as one and kicked out the extremists they’d be a whole lot better off but the reasons why they don’t is fairly understandable and they just happen to be the same reasons that guide American foreign policy.

Balladeer
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35 posted 09-20-2006 08:50 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ron and grinch, I have given a lot of thought to your replies and I have to agree. I'm guilty of being too simplistic in my comments. It's very easy to stand in a safe place and say "Do something!" and quite different when you are the one in danger. I do remember how the US backed out on the Kurds, leaving them in dire straits, and fostering distrust for the future.

It's just that, in the case of Iraq, they have every reason to rise up against the terrorists.  There is no way, I don't think, that the terrorists can be having the success they have  without the help of the populace. What reasons do they have? The terrorists are killing Iraqis...men, women, children. The US is there to help build the infrastructure and with military support. America has shown they will not cut and run. They will never have a better opportunity to rid themselves of terrorism than now. Perhaps even all that is not enough. I don't know. At times I confess that it seems hopeless....and, yet, I continue to believe that the ONLY alternative is to eliminate the terrorist leaders.

By the way, Ron, the pic of the student standing in fornt of the tank in Tianeman square was shown all over the world and, I believe, DID benefit their cause. Just a picture of one person standing in the face of danger for his beliefs meant a lot to many.
iliana
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36 posted 09-20-2006 10:22 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

"It's just that, in the case of Iraq, they have every reason to rise up against the terrorists.  There is no way, I don't think, that the terrorists can be having the success they have  without the help of the populace. What reasons do they have? The terrorists are killing Iraqis...men, women, children. The US is there to help build the infrastructure and with military support. America has shown they will not cut and run. They will never have a better opportunity to rid themselves of terrorism than now. Perhaps even all that is not enough. I don't know. At times I confess that it seems hopeless....and, yet, I continue to believe that the ONLY alternative is to eliminate the terrorist leaders."

Mike, that is the way we are presented with the situation.  The Middle East, on the other hand, is being presented with the scenario by many Arabic media services that it is U.S. black ops going around exploding IEDs and causing civilian death just to prolong the U.S. occupation.  
Balladeer
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37 posted 09-20-2006 11:30 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

hmmm...I know of no Arabic news services that claim that the suicide bombers are not terrorists or recruited by AlQaida. There is little doubt that Iraqis know...suicide bombing is a terrorist trademark, not an American one. The Middle East knows  that.

What's more, the terrorist groups have publicly stated that they will continue the bombings until the Americans leave. I believe your informations is faulty, iliana.

[This message has been edited by Balladeer (09-21-2006 12:01 AM).]

iliana
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38 posted 09-21-2006 01:23 AM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Mike, this is a little back on track to the point of your thread, but also reflects the attitude about the U.S. which is being propagated in the Middle East.  Unfortunately, it is difficult to find as many links as I think I could provide you with because I do not read Arabic.  But this one is in English: http://www.albawaba.com/en/news/203277

Also, the following may or may not have originated in Arab countries, in fact at least one is from China and several are Western bloggers, I believe.  But examining a few of these will give you the picture I was stating.  There were hundreds more, but I don’t have the time to do that much reading tonight, and to tell you the truth, I’m a little paranoid about just how many Middle Eastern websites or anti-war ones I visit...lol.    

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-09/19/content_3514065.htm
http://www.williambowles.info/ini/2006/0206/ini-0397.html
http://www.back-to-iraq.com/archives/2005/09/is_it_civil_war_yet.php
http://www.newsfeeds.com/archive/talk-politics-peace/msg00096.html  
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m18576&date=10-dec-2005_02:15_ECT  
http://kurtnimmo.com/?p=438
http://www.ablogistan.com/archives/2005/11/free_press_in_i.html
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/04/05/EDGLU4UE3R1.DTL
http://www.terrorfileonline.org/en/index.php/Main_Page
http://www.pej.org/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=ar             ticl    e&sid=2717&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0  
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12063.htm  
http://www.zaman.com/?bl=commentary&alt=&trh=20060920&hn=36654
Press Commentary on the top of the page.

And this link below (at the end of this paragraph) is particularly interesting, because why on earth would “insurgents” not want newspapers?  Nevermind....dah! guess I figured that out.  However, if there were papers printing “rumors” of occupier black ops to the general public, well, it would make sense to shut them down, I guess.  And if it were a true free press, then it seems to me that asset(s) would be strongly protected.  If you can give me a better explanation, then please do...it might make me feel better.     In fact, there really is very little free press in Iraq, if any – why is that?  Journalists afraid to print the truth?  I think not because I saw hundreds of Iraqi women and men, willing to die for the right to vote, come out to the polls, holding up their blue fingers in defiance of those who would prevent freedom.  I do not think the Iraqi people who want their country and their freedom would hesitate to publish news unless there were a very significant threat -- can the insurgency be that significant...to stop the presses?  And, if it is -- well, then, perhaps there is no winning this war and things are much, much worse than we suspect.  I am convinced that in a time of "war" the occupying forces would want to control the media and press -- it is only logical.  So is there no control over the media there, do we control it or do the insurgents by shutting it down?   http://onthescene.msnbc.com/baghdad/2006/04/targeting_iraqs.html  

Really, honestly, not intending to argue with you at all, Mike....just trying to find some answers.  

I seem to remember somewhere in this thread someone saying that the Moslems needed to condemn the reaction to what the Pope said.  This thread http://www.iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/  pretty much does that in an educated sort of way.  What is really interesting are some of the comments posted to it.  

[This message has been edited by iliana (09-21-2006 02:56 AM).]

iliana
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39 posted 09-21-2006 03:18 AM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

hmmm...I know of no Arabic news services that claim that the suicide bombers are not terrorists or recruited by AlQaida. There is little doubt that Iraqis know...suicide bombing is a terrorist trademark, not an American one. The Middle East knows that.

Yano, Mike, I think I took the wrong approach to responding to this above.  Rather than trying to show you where Middle Easterners are being fed the “black ops” idea, I should have responded to your comment with this definition of Iraqi insurgency:   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_insurgency  .  “45% of the Iraqi population, and up to 88% among the Sunni Arab minority[citation needed], see military attacks on Coalition forces as legitimate opposition to what they perceive as a colonial occupying power, but what is, according to Iraq's democratically elected government, a welcome U.S. presence in the country. Iraq's deep ethnic and sectarian divides have been a major dynamic in the insurgency, with the insurgency finding much weaker support from some segments of the population than others.”  My question to you is:  is Iraq comprised of 44% terrorists now?  Also, in doing all the research for the previous comment, I ran across a number of articles suggesting the U.S. is behind the insurgency and I think some of those links even suggested that.  

So, in your definition, Mike, it looks like half the Iraqi population are terrorists.  The whole country is not comprised of terrorists, is it?  Only 45%?  Golly....as soon as that figure gets to be 55% maybe we should just nuke'em and get out of there (cynicism, of course, and going for the jugular--and teasing a little ...forgive me, please).  

It's high time we Americans wake up about the situation there.  If we implement the draft and send 500,000 more troops there, it will only lead to WWIII.  All the drums have been pounding.  We need to come to some solution which will get us out of Iraq, saving as much face as possible, and assure Iran, Syria, Eqypt and Saudi Arabia that we are not imperialist aggressors.  A commitment to withdraw might be a start.  It doesn't really matter whether or not it is propaganda that is influencing the thoughts of our opposers or would-be opponents -- what matters is, they believe it because most of them already have axes to grind with us.  Iran, China, North Korea, possibly Russia, not to mention all other Islamic states and the little guys to the south of us, like Cuba, Venezuela, etc.....are we really ready to take them all on at once?  Or, is it already too late?


[This message has been edited by iliana (09-21-2006 04:29 AM).]

Local Rebel
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40 posted 09-21-2006 06:02 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

saving as much face as possible



There are far too many in the process of covering  the other end of thier anatomy to make it happen...
iliana
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41 posted 09-21-2006 12:38 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

LR - Sadly, I agree with you.  
 
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