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Passions in Poetry

bombings in Israel

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Balladeer
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150 posted 08-13-2006 09:22 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Depends what you call a military problem, Reb. If the police fight street gangs is it a law enforcement problem?

It is a military problem for the side that depends on their military instead of suicide bombers and kidnappings.
Local Rebel
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151 posted 08-13-2006 10:27 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I have a toolbox that has all different kinds of tools in it Mike.  I can't imagine that I would ever acheive satisfactory results if I just used my hammer for everything.
Balladeer
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152 posted 08-13-2006 11:04 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

No, by all means, talk to the nail. Offer it incentitives, compromises, offer to meet it half-way if only it will drive itself into the board. See what happens.

You speak of negotiations, peace talks and compromises with a group in which all of that has been tried. You seem to close your eyes to evertything that has been tried in the past, including Israel pulling our of Lebanon years ago and only wanting to be left alone. You don;t acknowledge that Hazbollah has acknowledged that it has one mission - the defeat of Israel. You say, "Just stop fighting". Say it to Hazbollah. You speak as if no attempts have  been made by Israel for peace.

Maybe they don't want to die with their hammer in their hand......
Local Rebel
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153 posted 08-14-2006 12:06 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

If you have a hammer everything looks like a nail.

So, a few hours before the ceasefire -- for all of Israel's hammering -- the nails still fired 250 rockets today.

Obviously -- you can't hit a ball of mercury with a hammer.

Revenge feels good Mike.  I meet at least one person every day who should, in my opinion, be slapped.  

Anybody who's had more than one kid though -- knows that there are times when they fight and they're both wrong.

And of course -- we're always, always regaled with -- "he started it".
Ron
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154 posted 08-14-2006 02:14 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Obviously -- you can't hit a ball of mercury with a hammer.

You can if your hammer is big enough, Reb.  

While I agree completely with you, LR, that Israel can't possibly win, that alone shouldn't be enough to keep them at home. Sometimes, you have to get in the ring even when there's no chance of winning. Not out of pride, but rather because you know if you don't get in the ring, the sucker is going to hit you anyway. If you can force him to put his gloves up to block, that's at least a few seconds where he can't use them to hit you again.

It's been said that retaliation to terrorism just adds fuel to the fire. That might be true, but it's only relevant if there was some hope the fire would go out without more fuel.

I'm not sure a diplomatic solution to the Middle East is even possible. I do know, however, that diplomacy never works without the threat of real pain. Agreeing to give people what they want is rarely enough. There also has to be at least the implied agreement to withhold what they fear. Diplomacy is really tough if they have nothing they fear.

Hezbollah can't be beaten with guns and explosives. Neither can Al-Qaeda. The most that conventional warfare can do is make them hesitant to lead with their chins. That's not, however, a trivial goal.

You're certainly right, Reb, that you can't get good results using nothing but a hammer. But the results aren't going to be any better if you refuse to ever use your hammer. When someone slips across your border and abducts your people, sorry, but a glue gun ain't gonna cut it. And while the hammer probably won't get your people returned, it should at least give them pause when they think about coming back for more hostages. 'Cause you KNOW that thought is going to occur to them soon enough.

The only thing more dangerous in today's world than terrorists, I think, is cocky terrorists.  

(If I mixed just one more metaphor in this post, I think I would have to choke.)
Not A Poet
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155 posted 08-14-2006 09:22 AM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

I don't know Ron. I pretty much liked everything you said there. Hezbollah needs to know that there are consequences.
Balladeer
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156 posted 08-14-2006 12:34 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LOL! Metaphors seem to be the language of the day, Ron, and you have fashioned them into a very logical response which gets to the heart of the matter.
Local Rebel
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157 posted 08-14-2006 11:03 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

You can if your hammer is big enough, Reb.



Not really.  It just breaks up and scatters -- and that big hammer just kills roughly 900 innocent civilians who were put up as bait anyway -- compared to the roughly 60 Hizbullah militants who were permanently downgraded......

quote:

Sometimes, you have to get in the ring even when there's no chance of winning. Not out of pride, but rather because you know if you don't get in the ring, the sucker is going to hit you anyway. If you can force him to put his gloves up to block, that's at least a few seconds where he can't use them to hit you again.



Results don't bear out that scenario Ron.  Hizbullah maintained its' ability to launch Katushkas (katyushas?  I keep seeing it spelled both ways by equally credible sources) up until the bitter end.  So it's like a blind man punching at you anyway -- they aren't all that accurate.

If someone shoots at you from a crowd -- and you can't identify the culprit -- it makes little sense to start firing into the crowd and mowing down innocent bystanders the culprit doesn't care about anyway.  You've taught him nothing -- except that you can be coaxed into acting without thinking.

The kidnappings were a job for Mossad to handle discretely and definitively.  Blowing things up is equally as likely to get a hostage's head removed as anything. They could have more effectively responded to the shellings by a border rush -- and holding -- until Hizbullah either did something really stupid -- or the international community could bring pressure on the Lebanese government to put down its' mad dog.

quote:

It's been said that retaliation to terrorism just adds fuel to the fire. That might be true, but it's only relevant if there was some hope the fire would go out without more fuel.



If there's no hope then why are we waiting?  We have the biggest hammer around.  So does Israel.  But, my fuel pump died on my truck the other day when I was out about 250 miles -- without fuel -- fires go out.   Even with fuel -- they go out if you can't get the fuel to the fire.

quote:

Hezbollah can't be beaten with guns and explosives. Neither can Al-Qaeda. The most that conventional warfare can do is make them hesitant to lead with their chins. That's not, however, a trivial goal.



That would make sense if the terrorists weren't suicidal in their attacks -- if they actually cared about surviving.  But we know this isn't true.  A martyr is a martyr is a martyr.  Virgins in heaven are virgins in heaven.  If they are willing and eager to strap bombs on their own children to blow up the enemy -- what sense does this statement make Ron?  

quote:

You're certainly right, Reb, that you can't get good results using nothing but a hammer. But the results aren't going to be any better if you refuse to ever use your hammer.



I would think the lack of results in Iraq alone would be enough to illustrate that using your hammer just to prove you can doesn't impress anybody -- especially when you keep missing the nail and hitting your thumb.
Local Rebel
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158 posted 08-14-2006 11:17 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

You speak of negotiations, peace talks and compromises with a group in which all of that has been tried. You seem to close your eyes to evertything that has been tried in the past, including Israel pulling our of Lebanon years ago and only wanting to be left alone. You don;t acknowledge that Hazbollah has acknowledged that it has one mission - the defeat of Israel. You say, "Just stop fighting". Say it to Hazbollah. You speak as if no attempts have been made by Israel for peace.



These aren't things that I've said Mike.  You're trying to put me in a position where I have to defend Hizbullah -- but I'm not going to do that.

What I said -- very plainly -- was Israel should stop -- and then it's up to Hizbullah to either stop or not . -- You see -- that's what we have right now and if Hizbullah doesn't then -- world opinion shifts behind Israel and Israel would have the impetus it needed to take out it's measuring tape and coping saw and carefully begin cutting away at pieces of Hizbullah until the world community can get forces in place to begin policing the region.

I speak as if Israel made a huge military and political blunder -- because it should have gone into this conflict as David but instead tried to be Goliath.

kif kif
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159 posted 08-15-2006 05:56 AM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

Bravo. Local Rebel's just simply explained what I would think if I was clever enough.

It's not about defending Hizbollah,(ie;it's not 'being on their side') or any other 'terror' organisation when I talk of Israel's actions, it's about finding a solution to the mass murder that retaliation in war brings. As the similie suggests, it's ridiculous to fire indiscriminitely into a crowd that hides one potential killer-showing indeed that 'you' can be coaxed into a destructive reaction...not how to win friends, and influence people.

I'm not a Christian, but I have to admire the way Christianity spread throughout the tribal world-no more Evil Forests, no more animal sacrificing, or casting out of children. Christianity promised a benevolent universe, their style was all about safety, and care. The Christians that pilgrimaged in places like Africa didn't go in fighting...that came later, as business was begun, and intertwined with faith.

What I'm trying to say has already been said; lead by example.
Ron
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160 posted 08-15-2006 12:33 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

I think you're making two rather big, erroneous assumptions, Reb ...

quote:
Not really.  It just breaks up and scatters -- and that big hammer just kills roughly 900 innocent civilians who were put up as bait anyway -- compared to the roughly 60 Hizbullah militants who were permanently downgraded......


quote:
If someone shoots at you from a crowd -- and you can't identify the culprit -- it makes little sense to start firing into the crowd and mowing down innocent bystanders the culprit doesn't care about anyway.

These two comments typify what I think is Big Mistake #1. If someone shoots at you from within a crowd, and you know the shooter was hired by the very people in that crowd, there are no innocent civilians.

Innocent Civilian is a Western distinction, and even we only recognize the distinction when it can be used to enflame our sense of outrage. Yes, there are innocents in war, but they are far more rare than we usually pretend. Any American, for example, that pays taxes, that are then used to buy guns and missiles, is no more innocent than the soldier who later uses the guns and missiles. When you support war, even tacitly, you don't get to yell foul when you become a victim of war.

I really don't know the extent of the truth, but clearly Israel and many others believe that Hezbollah could not exist in its current form without the support of the Lebanese people. When you let a viper live under your house, you assume responsibility for what the viper does to your neighbor. Either you help your neighbor root out the deadly viper, or you accept what is likely going to happen to your home.

Personally, I don't think anyone should ever have to die in war. However, the distinction between soldier and civilian is a tenuous one, at best, and the search for an innocent civilian is no less difficult than a search for an innocent soldier. War pretty much sucks for everyone. I certainly agree the innocent should be protected. I'm just not sure we'll ever get everyone to agree on who the innocent are.

quote:
Results don't bear out that scenario Ron.  Hizbullah maintained its' ability to launch Katushkas ... up until the bitter end.

Yea, but your results are premature, Reb. Hezbollah's abilities to respond certainly weren't diminished the first day of fighting, either, but one day was too soon to reach any conclusions. It's still too soon.

quote:
The kidnappings were a job for Mossad to handle discretely and definitively.  Blowing things up is equally as likely to get a hostage's head removed as anything.

Actually, I agree, Reb, with the reminder that 'discretely' and 'definitively' don't sit on the same teeter-totter all that well. But I also recognize it wasn't my call. Maybe it's been handled discretely any number of times in the past, with too little effect, and the decision was made to try a more definitive and less discrete tact? I don't know (and assuming discrete was indeed discrete, I probably can't know).

As for the safely of the hostages, I think it's a mistake to assume the Israel goal was anything so direct and obvious. When a mountain lion kills a calf, you don't put on your hunting jacket in hopes of getting the calf back again. And you sure don't do it in hopes the lion will sue for a quick cease-fire.

quote:
They could have more effectively responded to the shellings by a border rush -- and holding -- until Hizbullah either did something really stupid -- or the international community could bring pressure on the Lebanese government to put down its' mad dog.


Big Mistake #2. I think, Reb, you're placing far too much importance on international opinion, indeed, to the point where you've suggested in previous posts that it should be artificially manipulated. It's nice when your peers agree with what you're doing, but I think it's far more important to do what you believe is right.

Non-military sanctions are historically something of a joke. I can't think of any instance in the past fifty years where they've worked? And, clearly, an international military response is just a matter of using someone else's hammer. That makes sense if you're Kuwait, but perhaps not if you're Israel.

I think international opinion is an important barometer. When everyone is convinced you're wrong, it's usually a good time to reevaluate. But when push comes to shove, you have to do what you believe is right. And at no time should you needlessly rely on international opinion for your continued survival.

quote:
If there's no hope then why are we waiting?  We have the biggest hammer around.  So does Israel.  But, my fuel pump died on my truck the other day when I was out about 250 miles -- without fuel -- fires go out.   Even with fuel -- they go out if you can't get the fuel to the fire.


We're waiting, I think, because some hammers are too big to use safely, especially on projects right outside your own door. Should that door be in serious jeopardy, however, and the smaller hammers incapable of protecting it, I suspect it would be foolish to assume the big hammers won't ever be used.

Your truck may have died, Reb, but the sun kept right on shining, its fires self-sustaining and in need of nothing it doesn't already have. It's not eternal, but ten million years certainly feels that way to me. Rather than wait for it to extinguish, I think I'll continue to use sun block.

Analogies aside, I think it should be clear to everyone that ignoring terrorism isn't a suitable answer to terrorism. It's not going to just go away if we play nice.

quote:
That would make sense if the terrorists weren't suicidal in their attacks -- if they actually cared about surviving.  But we know this isn't true.  A martyr is a martyr is a martyr.


Don't believe everything your enemy tells you, Reb.

The thing about a suicidal attack is that it will never be repeated by the same person. And you don't really know what the next person will do until they do it. Ironically, if you're going to run and hide because that next person might be as suicidal as the last person, they don't have to actually be suicidal to win. They just have to convince you they are.

I believe there are people on both sides of the fence who are willing to die. I think there are very few who are eager to die, especially to no avail. They want to convince us they don't care about their own survival? Fine. That's only going to end when we convince them we don't care either.

Oh, and for the record, Hezbollah hasn't used suicide as a weapon since 1999, Reb.


Local Rebel
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161 posted 08-15-2006 05:21 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

If you want some more time Ron to take a Mulligan I have no objections.  
rhia_5779
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162 posted 08-16-2006 12:25 PM       View Profile for rhia_5779   Email rhia_5779   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rhia_5779

thankfully, there is peace while it may be uneasy peace it is peace. a ceasefire is currently taking place rite now.

and to answer the question what do i hav to back it up.

our country knew about the holacaust in post worldwar 2 before we attacked we knew what was going on. did we do anything to stop thousands from getting massacred then? No. we went into that war to get japan back for pearl harbor. then germany and italy declared war on us.  we expected a fight from japan but not for italy and germany to rush to their sides and declare war on us and force us to fight with them.  

it took us till pearl harbor to fight a war that we should have fought way before then.

the vatican knew all about the holocaust and they did nothing!!!!! zero that i know about before the war of really during.
Alicat
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163 posted 08-19-2006 09:13 AM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Lebanese officials stated there was a group seeking to undermine Lebanon.  There were inferring Israel, but I have to disagree.

Hizbollah spent years stockpiling weapons and building bunkers.  Instigates conflict with Israel.  Uses public and private buildings as staging grounds for attacks, then scurries away while the shells destroy the homes, schools and hospitals.  Then airs the damage on their private television station.  And then when a cease-fire is mandated, Hizbollah is there to give cash assistance to any who apply.  You give your name and circumstance, then they contact you to collect your money.  $12,000 USD.  Which is equivalent to $18,506,041 Lebanese Pound as of today.  Hizbollah apparantly has a very large supply of US hundred dollar bills for disbursal, and so quickly after the cease-fire.  They were handing out those $12,000 USD bundles the same day the cease-fire went into affect.  And when elections roll around again there, guess what people will remember.  Will they remember Hizbollah starting the conflict which destroyed so many homes and ended so many lives, or will they remember Hizbollah that gave everyone that lost a home $18.5 million LP?

Very shrewd and calculating that, and I have to give it to Hizbollah for their exhaustive planning and stockpiles.  Not just of munitions and flags, but also US currency.  One thing tickles my memory though.  Counterfeiting is a major industry in that part of the world and was one of Saddam's main exports outside of crude oil.  I obviously can't say definatively that the heavily plastic wrapped c-notes I saw Hizbollah breaking open to count and wrap in 120 count bundles was counterfeit.  It looked just like the bundles that come out of the US Mints.  I'm sure the FBI wouldn't mind having a few bills for analysis.
kif kif
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164 posted 08-19-2006 01:19 PM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

erm, excuse me for butting in on your rhetorical sensationalism Alicat, but you cannot say Hizbollah started the war-what, when? A few months ago, or 28 years ago? Plus, to say that *Hizbollah instigates conflict-*it is the occupation of Lebanon by Israel that instigates conflict. *From one bold statement to the next...
Ron
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165 posted 08-19-2006 02:03 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Kif, you can either go back to the actual instigation of this particular conflict (which was the kidnapping of two men) or, if you really want to follow a chain of instigations, go all the way back to the beginning. However, stopping at an arbitrary point in the long chain, at an event that suits your purposes, is just a little bit too transparent.
Denise
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166 posted 08-19-2006 06:21 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Israel WAS NOT occupying Lebanon when they were attacked by Hezbollah, kif kif.

Hezbollah, unprovoked by Israel, kidnapped two soldiers, after killing eight soldiers, and then dropped eight bombs on Northern Israel. THAT was the instigation in the current conflict.

The events are too recent to get away with  rewriting history.
kif kif
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167 posted 08-20-2006 05:02 AM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

I don't think so, Denise. Do some research.

Ron-it's ridiculous to suggest that this was all started with the kidnapping of a few Israeli soldiers. It's you that's stopping at an arbitrary point to suit your purposes, not me.  
Denise
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168 posted 08-20-2006 05:34 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

You don't think so, kif kif? Well, then why don't you share with us your version of reality? And by all means, don't let facts get in your way.

kif kif
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169 posted 08-20-2006 05:44 AM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

Like I said-do some research. I'm not going to repeat myself forever.
rhia_5779
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170 posted 08-20-2006 06:25 AM       View Profile for rhia_5779   Email rhia_5779   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rhia_5779

the current conflict that is tempararily at cease fire rite now, was started by the kidnappings.

the entire conflict of the hezbollah hating israel and israel defending itself and being on the offense and all that was started years ago.

it was not a new topic for a conflict . it was a newer conflict same issues and a couple more
Denise
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171 posted 08-20-2006 08:12 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I'm very familiar with the history of Israel and its surrounding neighbors. I believe that you are the one who needs to do some research, kif, kif. Back up your claims with facts.

kif kif
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172 posted 08-20-2006 03:24 PM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

About my last post-I thought this was an exchange of ideas. It's not a fair exchange if I'm taking the time to proof-read and organise my words into a comprehensible package, only to be replied to with poor spelling, shoddy grammar and wildly sweeping rhetoric.

ok-ok-I'll be back with a time-line over the next few days, but in all fairness, I should expect the same from those who contest what I'm saying-otherwise, I'll have to think you're being one-sided.

ps; if you look back in this thread, I think you'll find I already have backed myself up with facts. Shebaa Farms? Or, what about The Mandate System?
Ron
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173 posted 08-20-2006 04:34 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
About my last post-I thought this was an exchange of ideas. It's not a fair exchange if I'm taking the time to proof-read and organise my words into a comprehensible package, only to be replied to with poor spelling, shoddy grammar and wildly sweeping rhetoric.

KK, if we stopped to correct you every time you used a hyphen when you clearly intended to use a dash, I suspect you'd start to feel like we were trying to side-step issues we can't properly address. Redirection is a commonly attempted ploy in the Alley, but you'll find we don't let people get it away with it too often.

Feel free, by all means, to ignore any post that doesn't meet your criteria for acceptability. I assure you, many of us do.


"Use dashes sparingly--only for those occasions when you wish to show special emphasis. They can help you communicate effectively in certain situations, but you donít want to clutter your prose with too many of them." From Punctuation Made Simple (linked above)


Alicat
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174 posted 08-20-2006 04:49 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Wildly sweeping rhetoric?  I offered a very brief synopsis of current events, along with what Hizbollah is currently doing to financially aid those who lost their houses and businesses in the conflict which Hizbollah instigated.  You apparantly don't believe that Hizbollah was giving out bundles of $12,000 USD, equivalent to $18.5 million Lebanese Pounds, to anyone who applied, nor that Hizbollah just might have planned this out all for political gain.  I would not be surprised at all if they gained a majority in the Lebanese Parliment, though Shia Muslims are a minority in Lebanon.  Or were at least, as I'm not certain how many have joined that flavor of Islam prevalent in Iran and Syria.

Never teach a pig to sing.  It wastes your time and annoys the pig.  (old saying. I'm not calling you a pig.)

Be well my fellow Scot.
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