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bombings in Israel

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Mistletoe Angel
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100 posted 08-05-2006 02:46 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

I agree, kif kif, I really do. I just don't want this thread moving in a direction where personal accusations and name-calling are made against one another here, as I myself would resent and feel hurt being called a terrorist sympathizer personally, just as I imagine anyone here would, and in any case I consider those labels hitting below the belt.

Let's please discuss the nature of this conflict without resorting to personal clashes, as that is completely unnecessary and can be hurtful as well.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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101 posted 08-05-2006 03:30 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ok, I will give it just one more try to make it clear for anyone who has trouble understanding my comment.

Sadly, I believe a form of genocide IS the only solution. As long as there are terrorist groups dedicated to the destruction of Israel there will not be peace. - Balladeer

Balladeer is the terrorist sympathiser by advocating "a form of genocide.
I really can't comprehend that statement. Again, I apologise if I'm too passionate, but I love people, and I don't want to see whole cultures wiped out."
- kif kif

The day you claim the fact that a terrorist group is either a country or a culture, your comment will make sense. I stand by what I said. As long as a terrorist group exists that continues to attack a country with the ultimate intent of wiping that country our of existance, and has shown themselves to be unmoveable by attempts of peaceful negotiotion, that group need to be eliminated before there can be peace. If anyone cares to brand me a mass murderer or someone with utter disregard for human life on the basis of that statement, they can be my guest. That is exactly what I stated in the above    emboldened comment and I stand by it.
Mistletoe Angel
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102 posted 08-05-2006 04:30 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Yes, Balladeer, and that's how I interpreted your initial comment, as well as relating it to your response on Comment #11 in this thread, where you said one of two conclusions will be met.

Like I said before, I don't agree with that argument you relate to, but it is an important and popular argument nonetheless. Also popular is the understanding that only diplomacy will resolve this conflict, and this is not a solution military forces will resolve, which I relate more to that understanding.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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103 posted 08-05-2006 04:46 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

But where might we find such a diplomat? Diplomacy has consistently failed to resolve this particular conflict for the past 30 years. It seems rather pollyannaish to believe it might suddenly work when the avowed goal of the terrorists is still the extermination of Isreal.

Mistletoe Angel
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104 posted 08-05-2006 05:52 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

I can understand how it is a utopian mind-setting to believe that one act of diplomacy will resolve generations of intense conflict, and as I said before, this conflict will truly take generations to truly mend.

But we need to establish more of a mindset that allows both populations to "live side-by-side" rather than resort to further "die side-by-side" notions. It's violence just like this, where you have Hezbollah militants firing 220 rockets every day across random Israeli communities on one side, and unfortunate bombings like the one in Qana last week on the other side, that's only going to encourage further generations to hate one another, and allow this cycle of bloodshed to continue oscillating.

New York Times: August 6, 2006

I am glad a ceasefire is closer than ever, as I believe though it's not going to immediately generate any "sustainable peace" that Bush and everyone is desiring here, it's diplomacy that's going to bring the parties bac to the table, not fighting fire with fire.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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105 posted 08-05-2006 06:58 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Six years ago or so there was another ceasefire.  Israel met their conditions of the agreement by withdrawing from claimed territory.  Hezb'Allah, Hamas and similar groups did not, and took the cease-fire as a time to rearm, retrain, entrench, then start over when Iran gave the nod.  Nor did the rocket and suicide attacks cease, since Hezbully took the legal stance that since they are not a country but a resistance group/political party, they don't have to abide by any UN resolution.  Which was semantically correct in a legalistic sense due to the very soft wording of the prior resolutions and ceasefires issued by Annan's UN.

And yes, Iran is in this too.  Hezbully is one of the renamed sections of the Iranian Islamic Revolution's military branch.  Hezbully gets their orders and money from Iran, their weapons from Syria and orchestrated a plan of which Goebbels would be proud.
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106 posted 08-05-2006 07:30 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
None of us here are terrorist sympathizers



I feel some sympathy, not towards their methods but towards the reasons theyre fighting does that make me a terrorist sympathizer?

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107 posted 08-05-2006 08:07 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

How does one understand any group of people that he doesn't have any sympathy for?  He doesn't, because he forgets that they are fellow humans just the same as himself.
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108 posted 08-06-2006 12:02 AM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

No Grinch, because you're not a terrorist sympahizer; you're a sympathizer of the terrorized.

I can understand how there are some who grow up all their early lives, surrounded by violence and sights of shrapnel, hopelessly trying to get by that they feel there's no alternative but to challenge those antagonistic forces in preserving all that's left of theirs. I am understanding of that.

Unfortunately, there are those who fail to infuse that righteous anger, that righteous affliction, into a positive social force that says, "Never again!" and instead retalliate with gunfire and violent resentment, and I cannot ever sympathize with those hurtful devices, excuses and tactics.

I believe there is a difference between the terrorized and terrorists. I believe both are human like everyone, and there are important stories behind even the most ruthless of the latter that should be lended an ear to, but all the same I also believe we must be absolutely cautious in how we go about reaching out and hearing them out, for there are opportunists and swindlers among the bunch who themselves don't really have an urge to listen.

In any case, we need to make an effort to be broader-minded, yet stern and disciplined as well in considering this hotspot of conflict. We need to further reach out to and accomodate those who have been terrorized so that our youth and future generations aren't raised by hate, yet also firmly reiterate once and for all that these vindictive acts of terrorism are nothing but a re-channeling of all that violent hostility that was cursed upon that individual, which is immoral in every sense of the word and something that cannot be tolerated.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
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109 posted 08-06-2006 05:36 AM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

A solution I can see is for Israel to give back that bit of land to the south, taken from Lebanon (1960's? I'll clarify later, for now, Shebaa Farms, overlooking Golan Heights. Israel says it was part of Syria, but a little vague research points that Syria agrees with Lebanon...agreed last November), and/or recognise Hizbollah as a Political branch of the Lebanese Government. No World Power has spoken to Hizbollah, apart from the French discussions with Lebanon's government, so it's second-hand. Rice, not the U.N, needs to sit down with a representative of Hizbollah.(She went to the land, but didn't dig any roots) When a group is invited onto the World's political stage, behaviours are usually modified. We've got to understand that these people are fighting for what they percieve as their rights-we need to listen for what they want (not what the fear-mongering media are telling us), then perhaps some compromise could be met (or not.) At the moment, it's blind fire.

Britain had to allow Sinn Fein to secure a cease-fire...with many compromises, mostly felt by the I.R.A. Yet, I can still remember the first time Gerry Adam's voice was broadcasted, there was a big run-up to it on the BBC, and the recognition promted a new faith in The Peace Process. Of couse, things are still troublesome...Britain still holds N.Ireland, but the likes of Adams doesn't want to upset his new global apple-cart, so the violent extremists are kept down.

I don't think being radical is bad, it's violence that's bad.

Mistletoe, I agree with much of what you're saying. Keeping in mind that international 'terrorists' are the youth-children brain-washed by corrupt clerics who give their speeches in English, so the good elders don't understand. There are groups that take over Mosques, bullying the community. In Britain, the Police(up until 9/11) used to say "it's your problem", thinking they were being racially helpful, but in fact, the system has alienated whole communities from each other, leaving them in fear to sort it out themselves, yet who live alongside each other. The point is communication, and protection. If the world-wide youth are not spoken to, and made to be involved with the whole community, there's a gap there for the hate to move in. (Like your tag-line.)


[This message has been edited by kif kif (08-06-2006 07:21 AM).]

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110 posted 08-06-2006 08:05 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Noah,

quote:
I also believe we must be absolutely cautious in how we go about reaching out and hearing them out, for there are opportunists and swindlers among the bunch who themselves don't really have an urge to listen.


Do they need to listen to be heard and if you dont listen to them all without pre-judging them how do you sort the opportunists and swindlers from the rest of the bunch?

Essorant
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111 posted 08-06-2006 09:38 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Good question Grinch.

(Despite my dislike for namecallings such as "opportunists" and "swindlers" that treat people like deeds instead of like people.)

[This message has been edited by Essorant (08-06-2006 10:44 PM).]

kif kif
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112 posted 08-07-2006 03:44 AM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

Yes. A swindle only happens when one party has more information than the other. Listen first, Talk later. I think what Essorant says about "treating people as deeds" is quite perceptive of what goes on in war. Get that sorted, and treat people as people, just like our loved ones...it's lumping people as objects within a State that dehumanises them.  
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113 posted 08-07-2006 01:26 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

On top of the millenia old tit-for-tat, eye-for-eye mentality prevalent among both warring parties, we now have Reuters, that much respected and cited news agency doctoring photos.  For some reason all the doctored photos show Israeli strikes in Lebanon, but none showing Hezbollah strikes in Israel.  And a few photos were staged by Hezbollah for more anti-Israeli propoganda.

I'm trying not to be cynical and jaded, so I'll pose the question of why this discrepancy?  Who is the target audience?  What is the political motivation of a supposedly neutral news agency?

And no, I'm not talking about using selective photos to put across a message, though they've shown consideral bias when they have.  This is about falsifying photos using photo editing software and then allowing newspapers and broadcasts to use said photos.  Yeah, they fired the person who was caught editing photos, but there's been no retraction, no apology and the damage has already been done.  Some of those doctored photos were quickly used by anti-Israeli protestors to rationalize the eradication of Israel.
Mistletoe Angel
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114 posted 08-07-2006 02:44 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Look, what I'm trying to say here is that, by all means, we need to become broader-minded in understanding what the effects of violence and hardship can produce on each subsequent generation, and understand that, along with their populaces being governed by some who choose propagandizing a "die side-by-side" camapign rather than rule with peaceful pursuits and working to improve the social needs of their people, how it is influencing young people to become brainwashed into tomorrow's "terrorists".

That is one main reason why I wholeheartedly condemn war generally speaking, no matter who commits to it; it only turns younger generations into cynics at earlier ages when they always grow up in physical environments where it feels as though there's nothing beyond the shrapnel, where one can't recall seeing any sort of cloud besides clouds formed from gunpowder and bomb smoke, where there's something more thicker than love. War is the ultimate cancer of mankind, afflicting not only we individuals, but reversing and harming the social welfare and health of each community, as well as the cancer that paralyzes any youthful idealism and hope and washes it away into a martyrdom cynicism.

What I was meaning by that earlier "swindlers" and "opportunists" response is that the most ruthless of individuals volunteering in terrorism campaigns are these children of yesterday who have become dangerously cynical from previous hardships that they feel there is no alternative to what they're doing, that it's excessively difficult to reach them because their minds have become largely closed to new ideas after much hardship. It doesn't mean that those who commit themselves to terrorist regimes have become the opposite of human, it's just though it's important that we hold an idealistic hope and optimism to heart that we can teach and influence younger generations about the moral value of peace and non-violence and to resist radical regimes by electing leaders that value the social needs of their citizens rather than those who teach retaliation, we need to be a little pragmatic as well and recognize there are still threats out there, and we must stand firm and condemn such threats.

Sometimes, because I speak out against war all the time, I'm mistaken as a "radical pacifist". There are more than one type of pacifist though, and I consider myself what's called a "pragmatist pacifist"; a pacifist who condemns war and believe no matter what it should ALWAYS be a LAST resort, but also believes that some sorts of coercive force are justified sometimes, such as dismantling factories that produce chemical weapons and other things that are well-documented to be potential threats on populaces, and targeting specific individuals that lead terror groups through secret operations and such. I also don't believe (except in terms of nuclear weapons and proliferation where I believe we have absolutely no excuse for having them in the world) in absolute disarmament, but just arms reductions, where the money from those reductions would go towards improving the social needs of the state and the citizens, while making sure we still have an active military, and that strategic sites like nuclear power plants, ports and large cities are actively secure. So I take anti-war understanding seriously, but also understand defense is important too and both are moral issues.

The final word I have here is, I believe there's good in everyone, and in heart, despite our differences, we have more in common than we do difference, even in the most martyred and cynica of spirits. So deep down I believe we can reach what we refer to as our "enemies" in some way, and that it's important that we do so too, as there's always a way to do so without appeasing, or "sucking up" to them. But we just have to be careful in how we do so as well. I'm not discouraging us from attempting to do so, but we have to be serious and firm when we do so, to show that though we can reason, we cannot allow terror to go on as well.

The ultimate test is in educating the next generations of believing in living side-by-side, and getting representatives that share this philosophy elected into their governments at all levels, where I believe in simplistic terms that's the key at resolving this conflict over the next few generations. It will absolutely be quite difficult, and hopeless and utopian to many as well, but it's the best way I believe, for violence only enfranchises the next crop of cynics who hopelessly find their ways into these radical militia groups.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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115 posted 08-08-2006 08:08 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The ultimate test is in educating the next generations of believing in living side-by-side, and getting representatives that share this philosophy elected into their governments at all levels, where I believe in simplistic terms that's the key at resolving this conflict over the next few generations.

Noah, I couldn't agree with you more. Unfortunately I find that one of the main points of destroying terrorist groups. I was watching news yesterday and a fellow was being interviewed who had been a terrorist, left the organization, and had written a book entitled "Why I left the Jihad" or something like that. This person had participated in terrorist activities, had planted bombs himself and been very active in the organization. He stated that, from almost the moment of birth, youngsters were indoctrinated against Jews and all things non-Muslim. There was constant graffiti on the walls of the schools and mosques, calling for the destruction of their enemies. It was taught in classes - it was preached in services. Just like Hitler attempted with his Youth Corps. so do the terrorist groups attempt to create future members by indoctrination from an early age. When you speak of educating the next generations, that is exzctly what THEY are doing and that is why they must be removed from power and the groups disbanded in order to give the future generations a chance to choose for themselves.
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116 posted 08-08-2006 03:27 PM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

Graffiti like this?]

Have you been watching the newscasts that talk of Israel destroying the social infrastructure of Lebanon, and those that claim that Israel has killed more children (for the time) in this attack than any other? (ch4 News, Britain.)
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117 posted 08-08-2006 04:55 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Kif, though I respect your views and would fight to the death to protect them, I can't help but feel you, like me, see what we want to see.  Balladeer gives mention to anti-Israeli graffiti and I think of the few photos I've seen, and the many speeches I've heard of such.  You however see the Israeli barrier to prevent those destined for shopping malls and daycare centers with explosives strapped to their chests, or even to the most revered global custom: a funeral, as was done in Bahgdad.  But then, you've remarked previously that intentionally targetting civilians trying to get on with their lives is a valid military option, even though said military hides behind masks and civilians and does not wear a standarized uniform when engaged.  Unless you count the masks they all wear.  If fighting for the Glory of Allah is so virtuous, then why do they hide like cowards behind pieces of cloth?  But I digress.

I already know the retort: Israel delibrately targets civilians.  Prove it.  Why were no men present in the bombed building housing women and children that was identified as a Hezbollah hideout?  Naturally, you don't think those poor souls were placed there intentionally for the purpose of international condemnation, but that Israel knew those people were there and hit it anyhow, just because they could.

Did the Muslim London bombers exercise valid military options when they targetted your fellow Britains?
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118 posted 08-08-2006 06:19 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Did the Muslim London bombers exercise valid military options when they targetted your fellow Britains?


Based on the history of military operations yes.

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119 posted 08-08-2006 07:29 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

The Islamo fascists use Israel's (and the West's) civility and sense of morality against them, specifically in regard to civilian deaths. While they deliberately kill civilians, it being their main intent, they use the media to sway public opinion by capitalizing on the unintended civilian war time deaths in response to their hostile actions.

We could never have defeated Germany or Japan in this current media environment. And unless we stop allowing the terrorists and terrorist sympathizers to frame the issues, we will lose the war against terrorism, in my opinion.

Israel summed it up well today. It's not about land, it's about terrorism.

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120 posted 08-08-2006 09:50 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I've asked the question before in this thread with no plausible response so I'll try once again - where is the outrage concerning the Hazbollahs using civilians as shields? Where is the condemnation of cowards firing missiles from the rooftops of civilian homes or in the center of civilian neighborhoods, then running away and, when retaliation comes and civilians die, they scream "Look at what Israel is doing!!!" Obviously it must work because that's what they do and we get people here saying "look at what Israel is doing!".  Is using and sacrificing innocent civilians, then, another method of "using available resources" in the same way using children to blow themselves up  was so described? For the life of me, I cannot understand how people can simply ignore these actions and speak only of the evil Israelis when condemnation time comes.

All terrorists have the same agendas, be they in Iraq, Lebanon or wherever - the agenda is their own personal power and gain. Just as the Iraqi "freedom fighters" claim to be fighting for the good of Iraq by blowing up innocent Iraqi men, women and children, so do the Hazbollah claim to be fighting for Lebanon by using Lebanese as human shields and bringing destruction down on the country by their own actions. These groups could care less about their countries. Their own actions bear that out.
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121 posted 08-09-2006 03:36 AM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

So, what of the funeral in South Lebanon that was bombed yesterday? The difference for me is, Israel makes out they're fighting 'terrorists', but in reality, they're crippling the social infrastructure of Lebanon. Mostly civilians have been killed in Lebanon, not soldiers, and not terrorists. Plus, to disallow transportation around and out of Lebanon is another breach of human rights. Israel is committing war crimes, and nobody's doing anything about them. Soon, the whole of the Middle-East will REALLY rise up, and get together against Israel, just like 'us' in the West are 'supporting' Israel, the countries in the East will fully support each other. Then we'll see a war that none of us can chat safely about. Before that happens, I think everybody needs to be heard, listened to, and respected. Incidentally, there were no Hizbollah at that funeral , it was mostly children that were being buried (killed in the previous days bombings from Israel).

Go ahead, keep thinking you're right, that murdering people with bombs is ok, and you'll forever have potential war. It doesn't make sense to me...on one hand, you condemn suicide bombers, yet on the other, you support air-strikes on primary schools.

ps, Alicat, I see the barriers just like the Berlin wall...keeping the 'desirables' safe from the bitterness of poverty.  

As for the question of why there were no men in the building bombed by Israeli's...schools are normally filled with women and children, and in war, the menfolk are dragged out of society first, to fight, and be killed (it's not just Hizbollah, the Lebanese Army is employed). Think of some African and Eastern-European villages, full of children with no adults to look after them, because they're all dead.

pps, it's proved that Israeli intelligence is not spot-on. They can just say that Hizbollah are there, and bomb anyway.
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122 posted 08-09-2006 07:36 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I've asked the question before in this thread with no plausible response so I'll try once again - where is the outrage concerning the Hazbollahs using civilians as shields?

Still no response, I see. The outrage must only go one way. I see descriptions of Israel bombings but I saw nothing of the missile attack on a school two days ago - oh, yes, that was an Israeli school and the missiles came from Lebanon. I see no mention of Hazbollah rocket attacks indiscrimately dropped on cities with no regard for where they landed. That must not be as worthy of comment.

The Israeli representative said it best at the U.N. yesterday. After listening to the exchange of rhetoric between Middle Eastern countries discussing the conflict and the proposed terms of a cease-fire, he said, "There seems to be one word missing entirely in this discussion - Hazbollah." He was right. The name of the cause of the present conflict had never even been mentioned.

Guess it's not only here.....
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123 posted 08-09-2006 10:18 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I saw nothing of the missile attack on a school two days ago ...

Uh, then how do you know it happened?

Mike, by trying to compare Israel and Hazbollah as you are, you are effectively telling us you believe they are the same. Only then would it make sense to treat them the same.

When I see a child killed by a drunk driver, I express my outrage differently than when I see a child succumb to leukemia. That doesn't mean I see one as less tragic than the other, it simply means I don't see them as the same things. I suspect, buried somewhere behind the facade of reason, I probably harbor a small hope that if I yell and scream loudly enough people will stop drinking and driving and killing other people. Yea, I should probably denounce leukemia just as vehemently, but somehow that seems less urgent and far less likely to be affected by any efforts on my part. We already know, after all, that cancer sucks, and we already have people trying to rid us of it. My outrage, I guess, is probably muted by my sense of personal futility. Screaming and yelling at cancer doesn't seem to help much.

Of course, screaming and yelling at drunks doesn't seem to help much, either. But I ain't going to stop, any more than I'm ever going to stop denouncing any nation that fights terrorism by becoming terrorists, or that resorts to atrocity in order to end atrocity. Looking back through history, not just at the Middle East but at every war ever chronicled, I fully expect to become very hoarse.

Unlike Noah, I'm not a pacifist. Some fights, I believe, need to be fought. However, I also believe that when we can defeat an enemy only by becoming the enemy, the war has already been lost. You can't protect the High Road by leaving it, and frankly, you can't claim to be standing guard when you're knee-deep in the muddy ditches.

If you're not willing to be held to a higher standard, then you can't be fighting for a higher standard.

I'm not ready, yet, to treat Israel and Hazbollah the same, Mike, because I'm not ready, yet, to believe they are the same. When and if I do, I really won't much care who wins or loses.


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Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


124 posted 08-09-2006 02:02 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well stated, Ron, and I agree with your main points. I am not, however, attempting to link Israel and Hazbollah as the same animal, any more than I would try to connect criminals and policemen, even though both might be shooting at each other. Also, if a criminal were to hold a child in front of him while shooting at policemen, I would not consider him an honorable fellow. My complaint is with, not only some people here, but with many who are condemning Israel's actions while basically giving Hazbollah as free pass, or at least, silence. They doctor photographs, invent news stories, and completely ignore the fact that the terrorist actions were the cause and Israel's the effect. Does the actions of Israel in retaliation make them the same terrorists as the terrorists they are fighting? One will have to judge for themselves. I get no pleasure out of seeing the destruction in Lebanon and I certainly do not by seeing civilian deaths. I hate to hear of the death of a child. A child doesn't care who is at fault - they just die. As far as the simple logistics of the Israel plan, I think they are being quite efficient. They know they have to take over the areas where missiles are fired from to stop it. They know they have to knock out the airports, seaports and roads into Lebanon to prevent the terrorists from being rearmed. Does the general populace of Lebanon suffer from this? Yes, they do. Has  this same populace condemned Hazbollah actions in the past? When they saw terrorist attacks in the form of missile strikes, suicide bombers, etc in the past did anyone say, "This is wrong. You are attacking a country has not attacked us. This is murder"? No, they didn't. What was their response? They elected them into the government. When directed by the U.N. to disband Hazbollah four years ago, did they? No, they didn't. Now they all claim to be victims. They are victims of their own inaction....their own acceptance of a terrorist regime.

I asked in this thread before without a response (again). What should Israel do - or what would you do, as Israel, with Haz firing missiles from civilian areas? Not retaliate because there are civilians, thereby giving the terrorists an incredible advantage, or retaliate in the safest possible ways, complete with advance warnings to all towns that responses to missile attacks will be met  with enough force to neutralize the attacks?

How do I know the rocket attack on the school happened? It was on the news, complete with pictures. You won;t find it mentioned here, though, from those condemning Israel for their actions. Nor will you find anything about Haz firing thousands of rockets into Israeli towns.

Israel has not become terrorists by going after terrorists. They are attempting to eliminate an ongoing threat to their country and they recognize that force appears to be the only way, unfortunately. The old "If you do what we do, you're as bad as we are" ploy won't work here. I feel sure that whoever came up with that phrase was on the criminal side and probably smiling when they said it.

I'm just saying that people should see both sides and not just jump on here to lambaste Israel and the U.S. I can understand Israel's position and reactions. I can understand the frustrations of the common Lebabese citizenry, seeing their country torn up by the process. I can understand the Arab community banding together to denounce Israel's   full-blown reaction. There is no need to try to understan Hazbollah, becaus they are just in it for the power. What I don't understand is why Hazbollah is the elephant in the room. No one can ignore the fact that it's there but no one will mention it. If I were Lebanese I would DESPISE  Hazbollah for bringing all of this destruction down on their country. I would despise them for using citizens as human shieds, for firing their rockets from household rooftops and they running away, leaving the citizens there to suffer the retaliation. Do they? Doesn't appear so. I find that sad, also.
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