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bombings in Israel

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Midnitesun
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50 posted 07-26-2006 05:36 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Reb, you are much closer to the core of truth than most would care to admit.
But in the end, we all suffer, no matter the reasons or the agendas.
For Peace and any real change to happen, everyone must have an attitude/heart-change, to respect and allow co-existence, and so far, those who want such, are being ignored. We must continue to DIALOG and find solutions that go beyond retaliation every time someone spits at us.
There are hundreds of Israelis and Palestinians, and as many Lebanese, who are struggling to find a way to stop this cycle of violence, to find ways to hold hands, come to a liveable peace between all the people of the ME. We need to be actively supporting these people. THe US governement cannot broker this Peace. Neither can the UN apparently. It has to come from the locals, the grassroots organizers and activists, and yet...they are being ignored by the media, as if they didn't exist. SHAME on the media and the GOVERNMENTS of all countries, for ignoring the people whose lives are daily threatened, who live each moment in an unecessary state of warfare.
Denise
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51 posted 07-29-2006 04:30 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

quote:
-- this is a war between the U.S. and Iran folks.  We've just gotten other people to bleed it out.


There would be no bleeding right now L.R. if Israel was not attacked by the terrorists, most likey at the behest of Iran. It is Iran that has gotten other people to do its bleeding for them, not The U.S.
Balladeer
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52 posted 07-29-2006 07:20 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Right you are, Denise. It's fascinating, actually. Hezbollah attacks and kidnaps soldiers, Israel retaliates....and it's the damn U.S. of A. Countries protest burning American flags, we get grouped in with Iran as the troublemakers and no one bothers to stop and realize that we have nothing to do with this current situation. I suppose we shouldn't expect anything else...
Not A Poet
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53 posted 07-29-2006 07:32 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

Ironic, isn't it?
kif kif
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54 posted 07-30-2006 08:39 AM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

The USA transported sophistcated weaponry to Israel, for Israel, through Prestwick Airport in Scotland.

Israel is now bombing Lebanons power stations, and oil slicks are currently flooding into the Mediteranean Sea.

This war might not affect the USA, but it is effected by the USA.

I wouldn't say ironic...I'd say disproportionate.

[This message has been edited by kif kif (07-30-2006 09:39 AM).]

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55 posted 07-30-2006 09:37 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Any response by Israel would be deemed disproportionate by some since the terrorists are not real men (or soldiers) and they hide behind the skirts of their women and the cradles of their babies for the specific purpose of accusing Israel of bombing innocent civilians. The blood of these innocents are not on the hands of Israel, but on the hands of the terrorists who use them as shields, not allowing them to leave after Israel dropped leaflets warning civilians to leave the area in advance of attacks. You don't see the terrorists even giving the Israeli citizens such warning before lobbing the hundreds of bombs that they already have into Israel. Why should they when their specific targets ARE the Israeli civilians?

And Hezbollah didn't merely kidnap two Israeli soldiers. It also killed a few during the initial attack and lobbed about eight bombs into Northern Israel as well before Israel responded. Funny how that gets downplayed in the reporting.

Nasrallah says he wants a temporary cease fire in order to get aid to the hurting people of Lebanon and out of the other side of his mouth he continues to threaten Israel and sends more sophisticated missiles deeper into Israel. On the other hand Israel has already opened up safe corridors (safe from Israeli attack anyway) for aid to get through to the Lebanonese civilians. That's not getting much media coverage either. A cease fire on Nasrallaha's terms would only enable Hezbollah to rearm itself. If Hezbollah wants a cessation of hostilities it should unconditionally surrender and agree to disarm as it was supposed to do six years ago. Remember, Hezbollah was and is the aggressor in this conflict. Israel is doing what it has to do to protect itself from future attacks.


kif kif
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56 posted 07-30-2006 09:52 AM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

The media has been asking about safe corridors for weeks, it's only in the last few days that safe passage has been allowed.

When people have nothing, there's nowhere to go. We saw that with Katrina. Now we're talking ironically.

Of course, the reality is blurred through second-hand reportage, but the school that was bombed by Israel, in Lebanon was reported by locals to have no Hizbollah offices beside it. Now, the power stations are being targeted. Israel is going for Lebanons infrastructure, not terrorists, yet, as it's understood that Hizbollah are very much 'the people', I can see the skewed reasoning.  

Can you really, from your heart, fully support the actions of the USA's support for Israel against the people of Lebanon? Imagine that your home was invaded and soldiers patrolled and prevented access to areas previously important to you. What if you were plunged into poorness, and your children were left to die, through no social care? Then, a freedom organization steps up, and creates hospitals, schools, and provides food and shelter. Can you see now? I'm not for the terrorists, I can just understand how support for retaliation through violence happens-it's desperation taken care of, and decanted into loyalty.  

ps, Hizbollah have no sophisticated weaponry compared to Israel...and Israel have already said that the plan is to put back Lebanon 25 years. Like I said, disproportionate.  
rhia_5779
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57 posted 07-30-2006 12:24 PM       View Profile for rhia_5779   Email rhia_5779   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rhia_5779

about the poverty thing, what about israel?

israel is giving leaflets telling them to get out.

and innocent people will die, sadly that is war.
in war there are no rules.


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58 posted 07-30-2006 06:43 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

the USA's support for Israel against the people of Lebanon

Such a clever way to say that, kif kif, which is quite indicative of how biased your feelings are. That's fine - you are entitled to them - but you know as well as everyone else it is not Israel against the Lebanese people. It is against the terrorists who fire missles from Lebanon, the ones who assasinated and kidnapped Israeli soldiers, the ones who take refuge in civilian homes and schools, the ones who stockpile their rockets in mosques. I see no recrimination from you about such tactics, about putting the safety of the Lebanese people in jeopardy by hiding behind them. No, you prefer to claim it as an act of war against the civilians being used as shields with no fault lying with the terrorists at all. Israel has done what it could to warn the populace - by direct contact,by setting up safe passages, by sending in humanitarian aid. What they will NOT do is to allow Hezbollah to use civilian areas as "free spots" (if I stand here you can't touch me). As Kacey mentioned, the only solution will ultimately have to come from "grass roots" movement by the local populace. That should have happened in Lebanon years ago. It didn't and a price is being paid for it.

Heck, go ahead and blame the oil slicks on us, too....why not????
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59 posted 07-30-2006 07:54 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Right you are, Michael.

4,000 bombs have fallen on Israel to date during this recent conflict, and every one fired with the intent to inflict death on innocent civilians. But Israel is the bad guy.

What I support, kif kif, is Israel's right to defend itself against Hezbollah, and to insure that they are no longer a threat.
Local Rebel
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60 posted 07-30-2006 11:47 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

There would be no bleeding right now L.R. if Israel was not attacked by the terrorists, most likey at the behest of Iran. It is Iran that has gotten other people to do its bleeding for them, not The U.S.



The limits of my agreement Denise would be the words 'most likely at the behest of Iran', with the exception that I would not even give room for doubt with the word likely and substitute 'most certainly'.

The rest is mere perspective.  How far does one want to trace the roots of hostility?  

Why at the behest of Iran?  or better -- why now?

Because the U.S. was pushing for a statement from the G8 to condemn Iran's nuclear program and Russia was actually to the point of agreement.

Meanwhile, U.S. made armaments are being fired at Hizbullah and Iranian arms are being fired at Isreal.  You can discount the role of the U.S. all the way back to Teddy Roosevelt as much as gives you clear conscience -- or back to Caine and Able if you prefer.  

What has been interesting though is that everyone has been surprised by the results -- Iran didn't expect this, Hizbullah didn't expect this, and Isreal didn't expect it -- needless to say George and Condy didn't expect it.

If you have any doubts as to whether or not Isreal is a minion of U.S. policy in the region merely read the headlines -- everyone wants the U.S. to call for a ceasefire (by Isreal).  The administration doesn't say it isn't their place to call for it -- they just say they aren't going to do it until they think it will 'hold' (by some form of agreement with Hizbullah).

Military action against Hizbullah has only strengthened their hand in the region -- it doesn't work against terrorism.  

Sometimes moms and dads just can't stay together.  That is to say -- when one comes to a mature position one realizes there are problems that don't have solutions.  Certainly firing heavy arms into civilian populations and then blaming Hizbullah for using them as human shields is not only NOT putting out the fire -- but obviously throwing expensive gasoline refined from imported middle eastern crude on it.

Isreal has a right to protect itself -- but the missiles keep falling -- obviously not working is it?
kif kif
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61 posted 07-31-2006 08:13 AM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

Rhia, Lebanon was plunged again into poverty back somewhere in the 70's (Civil war 1975-1990. Check Israel's involvement, before and after). Since then, Israel's maintained the barriers to ensure they remain in poverty. Leaflets are useless, in fact, nothing more than a threat to come, if the people have no means of going anywhere, and anywhere they do go will be as dangerous a passage as staying put. The cease-fire is a joke-there is no real cease-fire, as Israel's announced just a limited cease-fire from the air, on the ground, the artillery are hitting the hills of south Lebanon. Israel also reserves the right to target what they deem as dangerous positions-from the air. I believe Isreal are targetting as much as Lebanon as possible, before diplomacy takes over.

Balladeer, I believe you are as biased. Granted, I am totally against Israel's actions, because I believe them to be wrong (see my input within this thread), not because I have a special affinity with "the other side." I'm not on a side, because although I can understand retaliation, I don't support it, as I've already said. Maybe one day, when the fire of righteousness has died down a little for you, you might just see beyond your side.
ps, Denise, what of Israel's threat to it's surrounding territories? What about when Israel decides it no longer needs America? Or, more realistically perhaps, when America decides it no longer needs Israel? What then? Or will Israel be content as the gate-keeper forever?

[This message has been edited by kif kif (07-31-2006 08:57 AM).]

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62 posted 07-31-2006 09:31 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

You make very good points, LR. I think there is no doubt that Israel is an extension of the U.S in the mid-east. I'm not sure, however, that they would have ceased activities on a U.S. request. They are certainly their own country and they didn't ask U.S. permission to begin this attack. Could we have exerted enough pressure on them behind the scenes to back them off? Possibly....but why should we? What other solution could we offer? Israel has fulfilled their parts of bargains. They  pulled out of Gaza, an act that angered many Israelis. They pulled out of Lebanon at the U.N. resolution requirement. What have they received in return? Periodic rocket attacks, suicide bombers and kidnappings? Should we offer negotiations? I think by now someone should have learned that there is no negotiating with terrorists whose ultimate goal is not peace. Who visisted the White House more than any other foreign figure in the world during Clinton's tenure? Arafat, known by the world to be a pure terrorist under his smooth veneer. How much good did that do?

Is Israel losing the battle? On the news this morning, it was reported the Hazbollah soldiers are dying in droves and it is a fact that Haz will not release to the news agencies because it would show weakness and hurt recruitments. Is it losing the PR battle? Of course, but that is a battle they never had a chance of winning. No one wins that battle in the mid-east. Just recall the furor over mistreatment of prisoners at Abu Grahb at a time terrorists were making videos of beheadings without admonition. Let Iraqi terrorists blow up marketplaces, weddings, etc with suicide bombers killing men, women and children all in the name of Allah and no mid-east news agency will even comment that there is something wrong there. In this conflict, as Denise pointed out, let Israel hit a building with civilians inside and the press goes crazy. Let 4000 rockets fall on civilain populations in Israel and nobody says a word. Let the terrorists use the local populace as human shields and no one says anything. Let a human shield die and Israel is condemned. The U.N. is shocked and dismayed at Israel's action but appear to not feel that same shock toward Hazbollah, the ones launching rockets into civilian populations that have no military signifigance whatsoever. The U.N. should certainly be concerned. This entire incident is showing beyond a doubt how ineffective and toothless they really are. They are demanding that the U.S. do something in an attempt to hide the fact that they themselves are too incapable. We are going to be responsible in all situations where we do something the U.N.doesn't like and in those where we don't do something the U.N. wants done....so U.N. opinion doesn't really matter.

Israel has a right to defend themselves...but? What is the proper ending of that sentence? They have tried all civilized channels.   If you can finish that sentence with a reasonable course of action that doesn't involve violence please get in touch with the state Department immediately!


kif kif, my "righteous fire" does not die out easily when I believe the cause I support is just. Neither should yours.
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63 posted 07-31-2006 09:43 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

what of Israel's threat to it's surrounding territories?

Would you care to elaborate, kif kif? Perhaps by explaining what threat they pose or by giving examples of what they have done in the past to justify labeling them as a threat? I'd be interested in seeing your rationale behind such a statement.
rhia_5779
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64 posted 07-31-2006 12:55 PM       View Profile for rhia_5779   Email rhia_5779   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rhia_5779

israel has reacted when they are in danger.

if israel did not fight back, bye bye israel.

most of the middle east openly wants the jews dead, and israel given to palestine.

kif kif, you get annoyed it seeem with us when we comment about that we think israel is in the right, you make a big deal about how israel is killing civilians, and you claim to not be on a side, but that you can see both. yet not once have you agreed that the hezbollah is bad too.

and the reason the middle east media responds that way, is because to put other stories in the news, would either get the writers killed, or they silently approve,\openly approve f it all.

also it makes NO diff. to the hezbollah how the western media \countries, or even the other mid east countries media calls what they are doing.  they are a terrorist organization, so why would they care.

israel is a nation succeptible to any trade bans or  diplomatic pressure put apon them. they have to listen to what they are saying, even if they dont do what they are saying
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65 posted 07-31-2006 02:49 PM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

Balladeer, it went Global with the Mandate System, 1922. Think Palestine being held for future Israel and you're there, continuing through the civil wars as a result. Britain and America are just protecting the rich resources to be had in The Middle-East. Incidentally, some areas beside Mesopotamia were not  classed within the system until oil was discovered.

Rhia, everything you're saying in your above post is bigoted, presumptuous and quite frankly, fuelling the fear-mongering. how on earth could you possibly know how Hizbollah feels about the media? Have you asked? Personally, I think Hizbollah, just like any other terrorist organization, thrives on media coverage-just look at how the internet is employed to show videos, ect. Ps, I'm not annoyed, I'm quite shocked at the blinkered vision I see expressed, and I have never said that Hizbollah are right, just like I'd never say that the IRA were right. That doesn't prevent me being able to understand 'why' these extreme wrongs are done, and it certainly doesn't make me believe that Israel, America or Britain are right, either.  

I'm saying is this struggle goes much deeper than the extremists we see rising up (extremists/freedom fighters/terrorists are a result of the problem, not the beginning)-they've risen because Israel, helped by firstly Britain and France, and now America, are determined to dominate the Middle-East, at least economically...and we all know what happens when economics dominate culture-diversity is destroyed.

[This message has been edited by kif kif (07-31-2006 03:43 PM).]

Local Rebel
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66 posted 07-31-2006 05:12 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

All military action by a nation-state must be exerted with a political aim Mike.  Israel's initial response to a non-military problem with an asymmetrical attack on a non-nation-state network has only the political aim of retaliation and the muscle flexing of a new PM who didn't want to appear weak (not to mention a military that was over-eager to exact revenge on the same Hizbullah fighters who expelled them from Lebanon six years ago).  Unfortunately retaliation against a network like Hizbullah or Al Quaeda only plays into their narrative that they are freedom fighters fighting the oppression of Israel and the great Satan.  A network is an ideology-- an idea.  You can't fire a gun at an idea and kill it.  You can only kill an idea with a better idea.  It's like trying to hit a ball of mercury with a hammer.

It's rarely a good idea to remove a natural predator without having some way to control pests.

Hizbullah exists because Iran wanted to Hijack the Palestinian movement.  This was problematic though because there is no large contingency of Shiites in the Palestinian population.  Hizbullah, then, as a social welfare organization was set up, armed, and funded to try to draw away followers from the PFLP, PLO, Hamas, etc.  

If you'll recall back in the 90's when Hafez al Asaad occupied the entire nation of Lebanon (while we were driving Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait for doing the exact same thing) the Syrians held Hizbullah in check, not wanting the Iranians to gain control over their 'turf', literally rounding up members and shooting them if they got out of line -- natural predators.

Our European allies and we have put pressure on Syria to allow democracy to take hold in Lebanon and keep out of Lebanon's affairs -- thus removing the natural predator.  While doing this we (in the Western world) have done little to support Lebanon's capability to deal with an organization like Hizbullah.  It would have been a good idea to do so if we were going to insist on the withdrawal of Syria.

We supported Saddam Hussein in Iraq because we wanted him to buttress the forces of radical Islam in Iran not wanting the Shiites to take hold of the region.

Natural predators.

Now, our best allies in trying to bring stability to Iraq are a Shiite group with closer ties to Iran than to us.  They were supported financially and ideologically during the Saddam era by Iran.

In the meantime we, and Isreal, and ostensibly our other Western allies are now attempting to combat the despotic Hizbullah -- Iran's other hand.  

So, we're trying to be friends with one hand, fighting the other hand, and pressuring the head to get rid of it's nuclear program.  

Is this a coherent foreign policy?

Unfortunately, so many bad ideas have been implemented there are very few good ideas to deal with the immediate problem of rockets being launched against Isreal.  They set up Katushkas pull the trigger and then run.  It's shoot and scoot.  By the time Isreal can air-target a supposed launch site -- the trigger has been pulled and Hizbullah is gone.  This should sound familiar to anybody who was in Nam.  It's like playing Whakamole.

Latest reports indicate, unfortunately for Isreal, that Hizbullah is being outfitted with even longer range rockets  -- thus making the entirety of Lebanon a possible launch site.  

quote:

They have tried all civilized channels.



Really?  beginning an air campaign in response to a kidnapping is trying all civilized channels?  We have kidnappings all the time in the USA.  To my knowledge the FBI doesn't use F16s.

quote:

Let 4000 rockets fall on civilian populations in Israel and nobody says a word.



This is just an emotional overstatement.  Hizbullah's actions have been uniformly condemned.   If you want to know why people are shocked when Americans do something like torture prisoners or kill innocent civilians it's because we're supposed to be the good guys.  We aren't supposed to do that.  We expect the villain to do bad things -- not the Lone Ranger and Tonto.

It gets talked up because we do have control over our respective governments and therefore our military and police forces -- we can affect change in our own systems.

quote:

If you can finish that sentence with a reasonable course of action that doesn't involve violence please get in touch with the state Department immediately!



Why?  Why contact the State Department -- you're not sure we have any control over Israel's actions -- right?

But, because of the present state of things about the only option is to bring Syria to the table and offer them something -- which is exactly what Condy sort of did today -- she actually made the statement 'Syria has responsibilities in Lebanon'.  Which, sort of sounded like tough talk to whip the Syrians in shape right?  But, no, Bashar al Asaad's ears probably perked up and he will no doubt be muttering under his breath -- 'at last!'  because up until now he was getting no respect.


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67 posted 07-31-2006 05:56 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Israel's initial response to a non-military problem with an asymmetrical attack on a non-nation-state network has only the political aim of retaliation

What am I missing here? Why would kidnapping soldiers and firing occasional rockets be a non-military problem? I will certainly agree that Israel's actions involve retaliation but i think they also involve trying to end the problem and avoid future attacks. Too bad they haven't been following our attempts to do that in Iraq

Yes, there was universal condemnation of the Hazbollah rocket attacks....somewhere back on page 16 and then just for a minute. Compare that condemnation to the condemnation of Israel for theirs.

This entire incident got started because of bombings and the kidnapping of two soldiers...period. We can go back over the history of Hazbollah, go back 84 years to a treaty, as kif kif does, or throw as many stones in the pond as we wish but nothing will change that one fact. If the soldiers had not been kidnapped, there would be no bombing of Lebanon occuring at this time.

It's a strange world we live in when the bad guys becomes the good guys, when the murderers, kidnappers and bombers become the heroes...and yet that seems to be our world. Israel is attempting to eliminate the power of a group who is sworn to destroy them and Israel is wrong for doing so. They should simply take the periodic rocket fire, the occasional suicide bomber and not complain. The rights of the terrorist group to continue their warfare is more important than the rights of Israel to live in peace. Apparently there is no more bad and good, right and wrong - there is only public opinion and whoever can scream the loudest. Billy the kid and Al  Capone are heroes once again.

Israel is at least smart enough to know they can win no public opinion war no matter what they do ( a lesson America has yet to learn)so they are not even trying to do so. They will continue no matter what and they will continue to be villified for doing so. That's also the world we live in.

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68 posted 07-31-2006 06:43 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

It's a strange world we live in when the bad guys becomes the good guys, when the murderers, kidnappers and bombers become the heroes...and yet that seems to be our world. Israel is attempting to eliminate the power of a group who is sworn to destroy them and Israel is wrong for doing so.



To whom are the Hizbollah militants becoming heroes?  Not to the moderate Muslim leaders who recognize them as a problem.  Certainly not to the West.  But to the rank and file Muslims who sympathize with those collaterally damaged.  Israel isn't wrong for attempting to eliminate the power of Hizbullah -- but for the way they are going about it -- without regard for the innocent Lebanese who have every bit as much right to LIVE in peace.

quote:

Yes, there was universal condemnation of the Hazbollah rocket attacks....somewhere back on page 16 and then just for a minute. Compare that condemnation to the condemnation of Israel for theirs.



This kind of histrionic melodrama doesn't do anything for me.  You know that.  So, to whom do you write it?  By whom is it to be condemned that you don't see it being condemned?  How many times a day is it supposed to be condemned?  What are you looking for?

It's been officially endorsed by Al Quada -- other than that -- I don't see much cheerleading going on anywhere.

Winning the war of ideas is the only win.  Unless you're proposing genocide.
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69 posted 07-31-2006 07:03 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reactions_to_the_2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict
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70 posted 08-01-2006 12:57 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

To whom are the Hizbollah militants becoming heroes?  

Obviously you don't watch the same television I do, reb. I watch the one with the thousands of Muslims parading in the street praising Hazbollah. I watch the one where Israel (and the U.S) are being condemned. When you have  a fight between two and one is condemned what does that mean for the other one?

without regard for the innocent Lebanese who have every bit as much right to LIVE in peace.

You referring those innocent civilians that are being used as human shields? There would certainly be a lot less loss of innocent lives if they were not put in danger intentionally....but that is supposed to make it Israel's fault that they are? Tell Hazbollah that those civilians have a right to live.

How many times a day is it supposed to be condemned?  What are you looking for?

How many times? Once would be nice. Yesterday I watched the news of the middle east off and on for over six hours. I saw CONSTANT coverage of the destruction of the building where the Lebanese civilians died. I did not see one reference to any of the thousands of rocket attacks against Israel...but then that's par for the course. That's how Abu Grahb got so much coverage. That's how Muslims called for the death of a cartoonist. They pick and choose what they want to cover..

It's been officially endorsed by Al Quada -- other than that -- I don't see much cheerleading going on anywhere.

Once again I don't know which tv you are watching. Terrorist cheerleading and condemnation of Israel is going on in one hell of a lot of places.

Winning the war of ideas is the only win.

Do you seriously believe that Israel could win a war of ideas in the Middle East, no matter what they did? They would have to win over the hearts of the muslims who are screaming for their destruction. Do you see that happening...ever?

Sadly, I believe a form of genocide IS the only solution. As long as there are terrorist groups dedicated to the destruction of Israel there will not be peace. They will not be won over by nice words or enticements. They send their own children in as suicide bombers...that's how important the cause is to them. Only when one of the  two sides has been eliminated will there be peace...and I ain't holding my breath waiting for the day that happens.

By the way, if my words don't do anything for you, I can live with that. I simply express my opinions and beliefs openly. They do nothing for some and something for others...good enough for me.




Balladeer
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71 posted 08-01-2006 01:05 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

This is from the link you offered..

The international reactions to the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict have been mixed, with most leaders condemning both Hezbollah and Israel. This includes the Arab League, which is primarily condemning Israel.


You say not to the Muslim leaders? They are not part of the Arab League then? Some of the world blames Israel and Hebollah. The rest condemn Israel. Will the real good guy please stand up?
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72 posted 08-01-2006 06:20 AM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

So Balladeer, you've admitted "a form of genocide is the only solution". Now we're getting there. Is that why you don't want to look farther back in history? Because you might find that this has all been done before. That's the thing with nations at war, it copies the terror experienced, and reapplies it to the new enemy.

Combined with Alicat's "history has no place in politics". What can I say...but stop watching Fox News (and develop some compassion). To believe that this whole thing was started with a few kidnappings is ridiculous-the kidnappings were just an excuse to engage in fresh rocket-launches against Lebanon.

I agree with Local Rebel-it's ideas that need to be employed in a battle of ideas, not fire-power.




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73 posted 08-01-2006 12:02 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

That's the thing with nations at war

That's the point, kif kif. This is not about nations at war. This is  about one nation at war with terrorist groups, unless you want to claim Hazbollah as a country.

the kidnappings were just an excuse to engage in fresh rocket-launches against Lebanon.

Well, that statement sets a new record for incredible. Fresh rocket attacks? When were the old ones again? You are a student of history and yet seem to have a mental lapse at the fact that Israel voluntarily pulled OUT of Lebanon at U.N. request. They had also agreed to give Arafat almost everything he wanted, an offer he was too stupid to accept. You portray Israel as a nation just sitting there, looking for any excuse to attack it's neighboring countries and yet history will show you that it has always been Israel as the one attacked. History will back my comment on this - what in the world will you get to back yours?

Win the battle of ideas? Win the PR battle? Just how do you propose to do that? Are you so blind that you can't see pure evil when it's right in front of you? You are not going to deal with, or win over, the hearts and minds of terrorists who have sworn allegiances to destroy you. They are not open to bargains - your destruction is their only goal and they will kill themselves to make it happen. You are locked in a cage with a mad dog. Try to get out without killing the dog.

It's easy to shout compassion and come up with grandoise plans to end conflict without fighting. Let's see some suggested courses of action to back up those plans. You want to win a war of ideas? Please give me an idea how you would proceed. LR claims that Israel has the right to defend themselves but went about it in the wrong way, resulting in civilian deaths. When I pointed out civilians were being used as human shields, I received no response. What then would be the appropriate course of action? As far as I see it, Israel  had three choices (1) forget the whole thing and accept as a fact of life there will continue to be random rocket launches, occasionaly suicide bombers blowing up weddings and restaurants, and kidnappings (2) launch an all-out assault with a "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" mentality (3) go after the terrorist organization, warning the populace in advance to clear out of the  areas, set up safe avenues where the civilians could escape through and attack the areas known to be terrorist strongholds. Israel chose the third. What would your course of action be?

By the way, while you are touting compassion, see if you can get Hazbollah to buy a few bottles.....or is that just a trait we are supposed to feel?
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74 posted 08-01-2006 06:19 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

I watch the one with the thousands of Muslims parading in the street praising Hazbollah. I watch the one where Israel (and the U.S) are being condemned.



ok...

here's what I said;

quote:

To whom are the Hizbollah militants becoming heroes? Not to the moderate Muslim leaders who recognize them as a problem. Certainly not to the West. But to the rank and file Muslims who sympathize with those collaterally damaged.



So, apparently we're talking about the same people... the same people I'm talking about when I said previously this is only making Hizbullah stronger...

I'm not clear about your point of disagreement here Mike.

quote:

You referring those innocent civilians that are being used as human shields? There would certainly be a lot less loss of innocent lives if they were not put in danger intentionally....but that is supposed to make it Israel's fault that they are? Tell Hazbollah that those civilians have a right to live.



So, if someone uses you as a human shield anyone that deems it necessary is within their rights to kill you if need be?  Really?  How about a daughter that's a human shield?  A lover?  It just so happens Al Quada thinks you're fair game because you pay taxes that support the great beast -- do you agree or disagree?  

I unequivocally tell Hizbollah that Lebanese civilians have a right to live and I've called them despots?  What more do you want?  You forget Mike.  I'm not a pacifist.  Never have been.  I'm for efficacy.  My father taught me when I was 12 that bait comes with a hook.  A lesson not seemed to be learned by you or Israel.  (or GW)

quote:

Once again I don't know which tv you are watching. Terrorist cheerleading and condemnation of Israel is going on in one hell of a lot of places.



At the rank and file level as previously pointed out not from leadership positions.

quote:

Do you seriously believe that Israel could win a war of ideas in the Middle East, no matter what they did? They would have to win over the hearts of the muslims who are screaming for their destruction. Do you see that happening...ever?



Your caviling about them screaming for the destruction of Israel previously and your contention here that that's what they will always do anyway is logically inconsistent.  Are you surprised and upset that they condemn Israel or is it business as usual?

quote:

Sadly, I believe a form of genocide IS the only solution. As long as there are terrorist groups dedicated to the destruction of Israel there will not be peace. They will not be won over by nice words or enticements.


Yet, these are the very things that have allowed Hizbullah, an extremist Shiite organization, to establish a position of power in Lebanon -- a moderate Sufi/Sunni/Christian nation.  Providing a social welfare infrastructure has gone a long way in instituting Hizbullah as a legitimate political party.

You mentioned yourself that we've come a long way on another thread regarding use of the term 'wet back'.  It's taken generations -- but, I suspect that your grandfather's father wouldn't have conceived the present world possible.

But, at least one man had a dream.

That one-day all men might be judged by the content of their character -- and not the color of their skin.

No matter what 'kind' of genocide you propose -- you're just prolonging the process and creating a new generation of hate not to mention murdering thousands of innocents.

quote:

By the way, if my words don't do anything for you, I can live with that. I simply express my opinions and beliefs openly. They do nothing for some and something for others...good enough for me.



Your words are always welcome to me Mike.  I'm a big fan of your poetry.  Love to see you go toe to toe with Toe.  But if you're trying to sway my opinion you know that overly dramatic unsubstantiated sweeping statements aren't going to do it.

quote:

You say not to the Muslim leaders? They are not part of the Arab League then? Some of the world blames Israel and Hebollah. The rest condemn Israel. Will the real good guy please stand up?



You are a writer Mike, and a reader... so you know what the word 'Primarily' means.  They blame both parties -- but Israel more than Hizbullah -- this is a surprise to you from the Arab League?  That they condemn Hizbullah even secondarily is a tremendous leap forward from 1966 wouldn't you say?
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