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Passions in Poetry

bombings in Israel

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Marge Tindal
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25 posted 07-24-2006 01:12 PM       View Profile for Marge Tindal   Email Marge Tindal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Marge Tindal's Home Page   View IP for Marge Tindal


I believe that accurately quoting someone is really important - this link takes you to President George W. Bush's quoted statements, with the full context of the situation he was referring to at the time~

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/11/06/gen.attack.on.terror/

WE being the coalition partners, not just President George W. Bush~
Alicat
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26 posted 07-24-2006 01:24 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Proof again that history has no place in politics.



Just look back over the past 50 years and see who Israel attacked unprovoked.  Compare that list to who has attacked Israel over the past 50 years.
kif kif
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27 posted 07-24-2006 02:18 PM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

"history has no place in politics"???

What!?!

As I've said...spin.

In my view, Israel's gone in because the democracy formed in Lebanon, and in Palestine is not throwing up support for the actions of Israel and The West.

Building walls, and shooting children to sequester land and keep out the displaced is not democratic, it's totalitarian.
Balladeer
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28 posted 07-24-2006 04:59 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Interesting history books you read then. In mine, Israel pulled out of Lebanon completely when Lebanon became democratic, upon a condition set by the U.N. The other condition, that Hazbollah be dismantled by  the Lebanese government, was not met...but I guess that's ok?

Shooting children? Perhaps then it would be better if they acted like Hazbollah and simply strapped explosives to them and sent them out to kill other children? Does that sound better to you then?

You come across as a person with strong prejudices against Israel and even the United States and the British, strong to the point where you would even side with terroristic groups whose aim is the extermination of a country and who would use suicide bombers, missile attacks in civilian communities and kidnappings to achieve their goals. May you never be the target of such a group...
kif kif
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29 posted 07-24-2006 05:33 PM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif



I have been the target. I lived in London when the IRA were on their terror mission, and I live in Barcelona, where ETO have planted bombs.

The bus that was blown up in Tavistock Square is the bus I used to take to Camden Market, where I had a stall. I have friends in Green Lanes, the muslim stronghold in London, and have experienced racism first-hand.

What I'm trying to say is, by creating an us and them, creates an unshakable tension. Israel is all about us and them, as is America and Britain.

People don't strap bombs to themselves for no reason-it's desperation borne from oppression. In light of what you've said to me, I suppose you were against the terrorism experienced in Britain and Spain from the IRA and ETO...or maybe, it wasn't important, as it didn't affect America?

Luckily for me, I've always chosen to live in a multi-cultural environment. I can see all sides, and understand most attitudes. What I can't understand is the complete lack of empathy, in this thread, and in general, for the people of Lebanon and Palestine, for it is a war against the people.
Balladeer
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30 posted 07-24-2006 06:11 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I, too, have chosen to live in multi-cultural atmospheres, kif kif. Three years in Europe, 7 in South America and, for the past 30 years, South Florida, possibly the most multi-cultural of them all!

You can believe it or not, but I DID feel compassion for Britain and Spain as I would for anyone attacked by terrorism. One does not have to be a national for that....one simply has to be human.

People don't strap bombs to themselves for no reason-it's desperation borne from oppression.

I'll agree with that statement when I see the leaders of these groups wearing sticks of dynamite....but you don't see that. They are NOT strapping bombs to themselves. They are strapping them to their children and followers who have been properly brainwashed into believing the virgins are waiting and they are dying for a cause. The leaders themselves aren't so ready to die for that same cause. They are sending peoeple to die for their own quest for power, nothing more. Surely you can see that.

What I can't understand is the complete lack of empathy, in this thread, and in general, for the people of Lebanon and Palestine, for it is a war against the people.

In this thread I will have to agree with you. We have not touched on the victims here but I can assure you, knowing most of the people here for quite some time, that we all feel sympathy for the victims and  the casualties on both sides. When I watch the news at night and  the scenes of destruction and the pictures of victims I feel a profound sadness for the victims of both sides. Regardless of what you may think, I contend that it is NOT a war against a people. It is a war against a  terrorist group aimed at annihilation of a country. If the terrorists were all in a group in a particular section, I'm sure there would be no action taken on the rest of the populace. Unfortunately it's not that way and Hazbollah uses the general populace as shields. They have rocket inventories stored in mosques. They fire missiles from neighborhoods with schools nearby. These local "heroes" put in harm's way the same people they say they are there to protect. They are willing to let the country they profess to love crumble rather than cease their terroristic activities or go somewhere else. They are cowards. One of the facts of war is that innocents will suffer and they do on both sides. I feel as much sympathy for the Palestinian mother who loses a son or a home as I do for the Israeli mother. Most people just want to live in peace. If it were up to people, there would be no wars. Instead it's left to governments and terrorist groups to determine who will live and who will die. It's a lousy system but, since it's been that way for thousands of years, I don't see it changing anytime soon

I repeat the comment I made earlier...

If the terrorists give up their guns, there will be peace. If Israel gives up it's guns, there will be no Israel

That's a fact...
Mistletoe Angel
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31 posted 07-24-2006 06:16 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

kif kif, I do believe there's been sympathy and empathy expressed toward the Lebanese and Palestinians in this thread. I do agree that any culture that adopts an "us vs. them" mentality can generate misunderstandings and stigmatisms which can discriminate populaces, and that's precisely why I've chosen to be neutral in this discussion, believing that war is not the solution to any conflict like this, and that we desire ever so strongly much more for the children of tomorrow of every country more than what they're living through incessantly now, whether you're Israeli, Palestinian, Lebanese or Vanuatan.

I do also believe that "us vs. them" mentalities tend to generate favoritism, that is hear and listen out one's side of the story far more than the other's story. I yearn for the day when we all worldwide can engage in a co-exist mentality and see all different sides of the story equally shared and empathized with.

I believe all this violence is wrong, and I pray an immediate ceasefire can be achieved and this violent melee can stop, and hope to make any sort of diplomatic amends so that each of these communities can heal and strive again, and work from there in hope new governments and leaders can be elected that value the dream for peace and the needs of their children, rather than those who carry grudges on from one generation to the next in deep resentment.

That has been a prayer of mine for years, and my deepest prayer these past two weeks.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
rhia_5779
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32 posted 07-24-2006 06:27 PM       View Profile for rhia_5779   Email rhia_5779   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rhia_5779

actually they are dying for what they believe is their mission in life , they think that it is right to kill what they conisder infidels.

they wanna become martyrs. they die for what they believe in.    i think israel has every right to exizt, but so does palestine. and lebanon.

they kill themselves for their goals, but it is also an argument that the american soldiers dying in iraq are doing the same thing just differnt goals and they arent suicide bombers but by enlisting they go to die!!

now don't get me wrong, i honor those who are in iraq that feel strongly enough about this to fight . but that doesnt change that they are dying over there.  and innocent people are dying as cause of them trying to get to the resistance.

i dont think hezbollah is rite but i dont think that israel is rite to bomb the lebanese army that is pretty extreme.

and just to mention the israelis have sent out leaflets warning the lebanese to get out before the attack.
kif kif
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33 posted 07-24-2006 06:37 PM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

Succinct reply, Balladeer, but can you understand that perhaps we (the people of the West) have been brainwashed to believe that there would be no Israel if they gave up their guns? You can't ask one side for an amnesty when the other continues to live by the sword.

Mistletoe, I'm not a believer in praying, but I get your compassion. I will venture that 'neutral' is no use, either to the Lebanese or Israeli people. It's time to stand up, and say exactly what you feel, otherwise, others will do it for you.

I'm not on the side of terrorists, but I can understand that life or death struggles creates ultra-extremism. I also understand that many youths are groomed within the confines of mosques over-taken by terrorist groups, just like our own armies are groomed within the confines of army training camps.

No side has the moral high ground...yet. I just think that this latest invasion gives Hizbollah and Hamas more reason to step up their game, and it will certainly bring more support for their cause.
kif kif
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34 posted 07-24-2006 06:48 PM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

ps, excuse me Rhia, but...capitals for countries!!!

I've written a few things about this war. I'll not bore you all with reams of words, but here's some.

See Blood, We're All Blood.

The youth on all avenues,
are wanted to fight the good fight,
but rude strength is life,
and the saviours can't get through.
Where is all this theatre going?
Nothing's left to prove,
no-one's there to knife,
the youth have all died.

pps; Balladeer, you don't see leaders from any political group fighting on the front line.
Not A Poet
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35 posted 07-24-2006 07:02 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

It has been said, and rightfully so, that there will never be peace in the middle east until the Palestineans begin to love their children more than they hate Jews.
kif kif
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36 posted 07-24-2006 07:14 PM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

I think that's the kind of comment that flames hatred, Not A Poet. Perhaps there would be peace in The Middle East if Israel and The West  began to respect their different neighbours, and allowed 'others' to benefit from their resources.

As Rhia's pointed out, the suicide bombing is a tactic in war, just as the other side employs a front-line force with state of the art weaponry, Hamas and Hizbollah retaliate with what they have, which is loyalty. I can see that this loyalty is displaced, but that's not surprising, considering the living conditions in Lebanon and Palestine...living conditions brought on by Israel's and The West's greed for The whole of the Middle Eastern resources.    
rhia_5779
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37 posted 07-24-2006 08:09 PM       View Profile for rhia_5779   Email rhia_5779   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rhia_5779

sorry about the capitals thing,

and yes if Israel set down their guns, there actually would be no Israel. the other countries need to also acknowledge their right to exist and put down their own violence.
Balladeer
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38 posted 07-25-2006 01:10 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

.. but can you understand that perhaps we (the people of the West) have been brainwashed to believe that there would be no Israel if they gave up their guns?

Brainwashing? Like Iran publicly stating that their goal is the destruction of Israel? Like Hamas and Hazbollah stating the same? Yes, I can see where speeches like that would put thoughts in one's brain.

Actually you do see our leaders on the front lines.....not the Presidents or Congress but the generals are there. How many generals (or their equivalents) have been suicide bombers? I can assure you none. We don't send people to the front lines to die, although of course some do. They don't send suicide bombers to live. A tactic of war, you say? You almost sound like you approve. How can you look at organizations that deliberately kill their own people and feel that they are being persecuted? I cannot understand that at all.
kif kif
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39 posted 07-25-2006 02:11 AM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

Of course I don't 'approve'. These personal comments are nothing but rhetoric. I'm saying that there's no good way to murder...suicide bombers are a weapon in war, just like the infantry.

Like I said, the onus is on "if you're not with us, you're against us" throughout this mess. To throw a cliche; two wrongs don't make a right.

Gladly, I don't see army generals as leaders...yet as we're on that level, we have the danger of despotism.

Marge Tindal
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40 posted 07-25-2006 07:46 AM       View Profile for Marge Tindal   Email Marge Tindal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Marge Tindal's Home Page   View IP for Marge Tindal


Again, I state that I believe it is imperative to quote correctly and keep it in context to the issue it relates to.
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/11/06/gen.attack.on.terror/
Accurately quoted, G.W. Bush said, "You're either with us or against us in the fight against terror."

Us being the COALITION PARTNERS working together to fight terrorism worldwide.
kif kif
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41 posted 07-25-2006 09:19 AM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

Marge, if Bush wanted to fight terror worldwide, then why has virtually nothing been done in Africa? Plus, look at Eastern Europe. Children are still being snatched from villages, and trafficked within the sex industry. Bush, and the coalition are not interested in fighting terror, they're interested in securing the Middle Eastern land resources, in my view.
rhia_5779
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42 posted 07-25-2006 01:33 PM       View Profile for rhia_5779   Email rhia_5779   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rhia_5779

too true on that kif kif
Not A Poet
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43 posted 07-25-2006 04:15 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

But when was the last time we were attacked by African fascists or eastern European for that matter. Let's first fight and erradicate it where it is doing or has sworn to do us harm. After that maybe we can worry about the rest.

Grinch
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44 posted 07-25-2006 06:41 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Marge,

Thanks for the link, that quote has always bothered me somehow I think itís the lack of a third option, the middle ground between black and white where truth and reason generally reside. I think that once that choice is removed the probability of conflict over resolution seems inevitable.

"Over time it's going to be important for nations to know they will be held accountable for inactivity," he said. "You're either with us or against us in the fight against terror."

Iím no expert on veiled threats but this looks suspiciously like one and threatening people isnít generally a good way to elicit support Ė it just tends to wind people up or force them to make a choice they would never have otherwise made and that you may ultimately regret.

Polarised opinions between two factions is evident in the Israel question too Ė some take one side some the other both maintain their side is the right side and holds the moral high ground when the truth lies hidden somewhere between.

When you choose one side itís hard to see both.

Grinch
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45 posted 07-25-2006 07:49 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

.suicide bombers are a weapon in war, just like the infantry.

I have no idea how you can possibly say that. How is a child strapped with explosives sent to blow up civilians at an outdoor market a weapon of war? Kamakazee pilots were weapons of war - soldiers who willingly gave their lives to destroy military targets like cruisers and battleships. Is a wedding a military target? How about a schoolbus? Is an outdoor cafe a good military target? This is nothing more than simple murder with no military gains whatsoever. It's sad to have to point out that sending women and children   strapped with explosives to  blow up other women and children is an unjustifiable action and yet you try to justify it by speaking of using all resources available and calling them weapons of war. You enter the conversation by criticizing America and then set up justifications for terroristic tactics. I'm afraid I do not understand your reasoning at all, sir.

Not A Poet
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46 posted 07-25-2006 09:56 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

In fact, such activity is explicitly prohibited by the "Rules of War" as set out in multiple treaties signed by most of the civilized world over the last century, including all those that we have been involved in conflicts with during that time. The "terrorist organizations" are, of course, not a nation and hold themselves above those "rules."


rhia_5779
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47 posted 07-26-2006 01:59 AM       View Profile for rhia_5779   Email rhia_5779   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rhia_5779

actually the yes that could be considered a weapon of war, i mean its wrong but yes it could be considered that.
and actually those of the organizations who give their life to kill who they call infidels they are weapons of war.

kif kif
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48 posted 07-26-2006 02:24 AM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

Balladeer, if we're going to go for tit-for-tat...

Not A Poet, "Rules Of War" seems a contradiction in terms. There are no good rules in war, except to call a cease-fire. If you put people up against a wall, they're going to feel that 'fight or flight'instinct, and that creates chaos.

On the topic of terrorism in Africa and Eastern Europe...has been going on for as long as this Middle-Eastern fight, and I consider the people caught up in it to be "us", and therefore "we" are and have been threatened.

  
Local Rebel
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49 posted 07-26-2006 05:15 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Like Iran publicly stating that their goal is the destruction of Israel? Like Hamas and Hazbollah stating the same? Yes, I can see where speeches like that would put thoughts in one's brain.



Not delving into some of the thread tangent's here -- this comment is probably getting pretty close to the root of the situation -- and that's Iran... attempting to justify it's need to have a nuclear program.

Isreal and Lebanon/Hizbullah are surrogates -- always have been -- just like North and South Korea, North and South Vietnam -- this is a war between the U.S. and Iran folks.  We've just gotten other people to bleed it out.
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