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Balladeer
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0 posted 06-26-2006 07:30 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Using broad government subpoenas, the money-tracking program allows U.S. counterterrorism analysts to obtain financial information from a vast database maintained by a company based in Belgium. It routes about 11 million financial transactions daily among 7,800 banks and other financial institutions in 200 countries.

Some Democrats in Congress have said the program raises concerns about intrusions on privacy and was another step in an aggressive Bush administration expansion of executive-branch powers.  


My wish is that these Democrats and the New York Times staff be in the next place that the terrorists bomb.

President Bush said Monday it was "disgraceful" that the news media had disclosed a secret
CIA-Treasury program to track millions of financial records in search of terrorist suspects. The White House accused The New York Times of breaking a long tradition of keeping wartime secrets.

The Times has defended its effort, saying publication has served America's public interest.


Neither the Times of the Democrats in question care about America's public interest. What they ARE interested in is obvious.

Their actions are despicable.....again.
Alicat
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1 posted 06-26-2006 07:39 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

No lies there.  The NY times committed treason in my simple view and should be treated as such.  Same with the governmental leakers.  Firing squad or hanging should send the appropriate message about publishing wartime secrets used against a known enemy.  And the NY Times did this even after the White House pleaded with them not to run the story.

How do you think the FDR Democratic Administration would've dealt with major US newpapers publishing headlines and stories about the upcoming invasion of Normandy, complete with times, landing zones and military inventory?
Mistletoe Angel
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2 posted 06-26-2006 08:30 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Unlike the NSA surveillance story, where I did believe there was no excuse for the FISA law to be walked around and to perform warrantless eavesdropping on Americans (for the record, I absolutely agree we need that NSA program and eavesdropping should be performed, just done in the legal manner), I do agree with you in that I see no problem with monitoring financial records in identifying and catching leads in apprehending terrorist suspects.

However, I am also shaking my head here toward your "wish", Balladeer. I recognize that whenever any major story breaks at first that one gets very upset about, it can literally rattle anyone to the depths of their soul and thus I understand some of the most heated thoughts will come out at first and then cool down eventually. But I can't respect anyone's thought of wishing others dead or in harms way, as you somewhat seem to insinuate here in your wish.

In these last five-and-a-half years that I've been here, I have always believed you as someone whose views I often disagree with, but also someone who is quite understanding and fair-minded, one who absolutely means well and really has a great heart. Really, I think most people who would read something like your initial comment in this post would indeed agree and understand your general point here in that the New York Times and these particular Democrats just don't take our national security seriously, but when they read that line, "My wish is that these Democrats and the New York Times staff be in the next place that the terrorists bomb." they'll think of it as something out of the pages of Ann Coulter's playbook or something and feel suddenly you've lost all credibility because of that single thought.

All I can say, Balladeer, is be careful what you wish for.....because this may indeed come true, and far more innocent lives than these leakers and Democrats will be lost in such a tragedy, something none of us here ever want to see.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
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3 posted 06-26-2006 09:03 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Yep, I don't disagree with your thoughts, MA, and of course my comment wasa meant more in sarcasm than actual wish, as i'm sure you know. I will state, however, if the actions of specific people  at the Times caused a terrorist act to be perpetrated on the US, causing loss of life for innocents, I would want them there, also,and I don't apologize for feeling that way. Their actions are inexcusable and transferring the direction of the thread towards my words instead of theirs does not address the issue.

I do agree with you in that I see no problem with monitoring financial records in identifying and catching leads in apprehending terrorist suspects.

That's all you had to say with reference to this topic, Noah. Nothing about the actions of the Times, no condemnation or even acknowledgement of them....just an "I see no problem."
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4 posted 06-26-2006 09:11 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Yes, and I did believe you had to have been sarcastic, or just thinking out loud, and you are far too understanding and mature to ever stoop to that sort of level really.

I'm just asking you be careful more than anything when you address your thoughts on serious issues like this, for if someone heard words come out like this publicly, they're going to be interpreted just as they are, and the only conclusion most will come to is that that person really did wish those dead in a next terrorist attack and such, and moreover in wishing terrorists kill them here it's as though that person really wants another terrorist attack to happen on our homeland just to prove a point.

It's a lesson I think everyone, including myself, must continue to be reminded of again and again.

As for the actions of those who pushed and released the New York Times story, I can't say I know enough about this story at this time to have a genuine opinion of it, it's something I need to learn more about. If they released this story without any consent, communication or permission from White House personnel, then yes, I do think it's an act of compromising our national security and they should be punished. But it could lean the other way as well possibly, and until more details are available (please share any other information or chronology of events you may have here) I choose to approach this story with caution.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
Balladeer
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5 posted 06-26-2006 09:16 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Again, Noah, you are keying in on me and avoiding the topic...can you respond to the issue, please?

he only conclusion most will come to is that that person really did wish those dead in a next terrorist attack and such, and moreover in wishing terrorists kill them here it's as though that person really wants another terrorist attack to happen on our homeland just to prove a point.

I  cannot believe you said that, Noah, but it is an incredible statement that causes me to lose all respect for you, if you would stoop to such a tactic to say something like that. Finished.
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6 posted 06-26-2006 09:30 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

It's too bad that they can't or won't see that giving information to the terrorists directly works against the American people's interests. Their actions in this instance are disgraceful, more than disgraceful, dangerous to our safety. They need to exhibit a bit more responsibility in their reporting, especially in such dangerous times when our very lives depend on defeating these terrorists. It doesn't help when they are given a blueprint of our strategies.

To sidetrack a bit...love the new picture, Michael!
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7 posted 06-26-2006 09:35 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

I did provide my opinion of this.....I claim ignorance of the matter at this time as this has just been coming out within the past 24 hours, thus don't have any real opinion at this point. From what I do know, however, I do find what these storywriters did questionable to inappropriate.

And I believe you mis-read my previous comment. I said that I was certain you were indeed being sarcastic and you really don't wish any irresponsible Democrats and newswriters dead. I was merely mentioning in my previous response that especially these days, everyone has to be careful what one says, for some people won't see the sarcasm, they won't see the joke, and if they heard any politician or celebrity say, "My wish is that these Democrats and newswriters are in the building that is the terrorists' next target!", most hearing or reading that will believe it's being meant what that person said, and would storm huge outrage and controversy. If you were in their shoes and I knew you just as well as I do here, I would know better, but others would think you really did wish physical harm upon these personalities, and I never want to see that gross misunderstanding happen for you or anyone here.

We've learned what it's like to get "Dixie Chicked" and I certainly don't want to see you or anyone becoming the innocent victim of such an outcry for saying something you didn't mean.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
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8 posted 06-26-2006 09:41 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



Ooohhhhhh...and I love your new picture too, by the way, dearest Balladeer, yay!



I'm just beginning to learn how to use a digital camera, so I hope soon I can finally upload a new picture here, after several years of the same picture! (giggles)



Love,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
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9 posted 06-26-2006 10:12 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I didn't like it either.

But at the same time? I am glad that I know too.

and hmmmm...

I dread the day we hang journalists.

But tch..there is that, this squeamish feeling I get, and I get it when I watch a little too much news coverage during wartime, but I also get it when I watch very creative acts of terrorism depicted in blockbuster movies and on the internet.

And then? I'm torn...one is fantasy and entertainment, and this is journalism, and apparently, reality.

If I trusted this administration (and hey? please note I did not say Republicans, 'cause yanno? I don't trust Demo's much these days either) BUT...

if I trusted this administration, I could say truly I would prefer not to know. As things stand in MY relationship to the government, I ain't standing in the "trust" line.

The Bush administration has already taken many liberties, and if we cry "treason", I propose let's cry it across the board.

But then? "What the *bleep* do I know?"
(with winks to jo jo)

I'm gonna go try to find Serenity.

She would know what to do!

gleeeeeeeeeee?

*peace*
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10 posted 06-26-2006 10:17 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



Yay, let's turn on the Serenity Signal!



Love,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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11 posted 06-26-2006 10:17 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

This issue just goes to show how far we've come in defending people's First Amendment rights... oh, wait... I forgot something...
I might be remembering something that isn't a fact; however, isn't there something in that law of Freedom of *everything* that precludes bringing harm against the US Government, or another human being? And would this information not possibly give aid and comfort to the enemy. As we are in a "War on Terror", then giving information to the enemy about how we are winning so that they might possibly counter-act and avoid they damage being done to them... isn't that what is called giving aid and comfort to the enemy? Isn't it written somewhere that soing such is highly illegal and could cause you to be alive somewhere where people force you to make small rocks out of little rocks, and make little rocks into powder? That is, IF you are allowed to live at all?

NO? You don't see it that way? Tell you what... we have a member of our family here on the Blue Pages that is currently in harms way. How about we ask him if he is happy with this, and if he thinks it is going to make the job of those who are doing the fighting any harder.
OK, OK... I apologize for singling out any one specific person, That wasn't right... in that case, how about we ask the family of ANY of the men and women who have been killed by an IED or in a firefight with terrorists if they think it is a proper use of freedom of the press.
Go ahead... I'll wait.... just let me know what they said.
*humming tunelessly*
Oh, wait... *I* am one of those. Silly me, I forgot that one of my foster kids was killed in a firefight with insurgents just a short year and a half ago. LEt's ask what *I* think about this... or do we even need to?

"... the rest is silence"
from the song The Flesh Failures
www.myspace.com/mindlesspoet

Balladeer
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12 posted 06-26-2006 10:38 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

No, I don't think we need to, Ringo, and I'm sorry for your loss.

Thank you, Denise. Nice to see your words!
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13 posted 06-26-2006 10:44 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

My condolences and sympathy hugs go out to your foster child too, dearest friend!

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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14 posted 06-26-2006 11:02 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I too, am very sorry for your loss.

And as you once nodded in sympathy to me regarding an emotional issue and offered a hand of friendship, I do the same now.



and yes

*peace*
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15 posted 06-26-2006 11:17 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

I thank everyone here for their thoughts... it was not done to elicit those responses, rather to make a point to those who feel the public has a right to know everything that is being done to aid in the fight against terror.

"... the rest is silence"
from the song The Flesh Failures
www.myspace.com/mindlesspoet

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16 posted 06-26-2006 11:24 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Noah, I'm not sure if they approached the WH or vice versa, but there was a plea from the WH for THNT to sit on the story and not run it.  New York Times did anyhow, most likely out of pique and failure to resist the urge to stick a thumb in the President's eye.  They ran the story on the front page with a bold headline.  Another paper copied their story and ran it as frontpage news.

Given the New York Times' trackrecord of publishing 'scoops' dealing with national security and the war on terror, it's rather naive to think the terrorists don't read that newspaper just for more ammunition to stoke the fires of zealotry.  And that is 'aiding and abetting', if not treasonable behavior, especially given that every single 'scoop' they've run on this Administration purported to directly impact Americans and impugn on their Rights has proven to be false.  But that didn't stop the stories in the first place and were definately learned by terrorists from that source.  If they really wanted to increase their readership, there's other ways than pandering to Islamic religious extremists and Allahcentric killers.
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17 posted 06-26-2006 11:49 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I do agree, bro, we have to take in the record of NYT, if we will compare it to the record of the Bush Administration regarding honesty.

And I still maintain--I am torn.

When I am torn, I do what I always do--I personalize.

Now let's suppose for the sake of argument, that I personalize this administration.

If that is so, "then I don't trust Daddy."

That, is a terrible thing.

and it is happening...

beep beep beep

tonight

beep

reporting on the home front

National Guardsmen in New Orleans report incoming gunfire

and now, I smile weakly, I have been told that to be a true proponet of New Orleans, I shouldn't advertise this stuff--because, we um, need you guys, to come here and spend yer money and act like nothing has happened...

Well I say b.s.

It's happening.

Where is the muzzle tightened?

and I propose a new question:

"when do you NOT wanna know?"
Mistletoe Angel
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18 posted 06-27-2006 12:01 AM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Judging by the way you describe the situation, I do believe it was wrong and disrespectful for them to rush to publish the story if the White House did ask them not to release it at this time.

I absolutely believe the threat of terrorism is real and anyone who doesn't recognize that is naive to say the least, and we do need this NSA program and like efforts, for I absolutely agree there is a legal way to perform eavesdroppings and monitorings. In fact, I believe some of the most at-risk sites are not being taken seriously, especially nuclear power plants and our nation's ports, and if anything that should be a top priority in my mind.

I must say that I do believe, like Karen, that our rights are weakening and eroding in some ways under this "long war" in which we are bogging ourselves down in. I don't trust the President in some of his decisions, especially in failing to either seek a warrant for post-911 wiretaps or cooperating with Congress to see to it the FISA law was democratically changed in understanding we're living in a more dangerous world and the current FISA law was out-dated. Instead, he walked around that law, and if we allow ourselves to continue letting our elected officials, who are sworn to defend the Constitution and the law, then we are just setting ourselves up for inevitable further erosions of our law and liberties, and that to me is also appeasing those who threaten our way of life, for they want to see us sacrifice what we hold dear.

I don't trust the New York Times to a great extent in that I do believe, as you say Alicat, that their disclosure of these many details can inspire these terrorist networks to shift tactics and provide hints to eluding our security strongholds. I also don't trust our government to a great extent either, in that I do believe it really does mean well overall in trying to secure and protect this nation in a genuine manner, but often I just don't think they take the time to think their policies over and act irrationally and recklessly ever too much, and if we continue to get stuck in the quicksand of this "long war" in the Middle East, I believe we're only going to get stuck in a greater conflict that'll take generations to amend.

For the record, I'm not a radical pacifist, I'm a "pragmatist pacifist". I believe war should ALWAYS be a last resort and all aggressive wars are immoral. However, I DO believe some coercion is justified, in going after the key figures directly responsible for civil harm, without resorting to widespread war where the innocent are in harms way. I believe facilities which obviously are strongholds of terrorism activity or weapons that can harm large populaces should be taken down and dismantled. I don't believe in total disarmament, but just some arms reductions in which the money can go back to providing for our children's education, health care, higher mimimum wages and other basic needs. I just believe there are always better ways to resolve conflicts and that the benefits of war are outweighed by the curses.

I hope that others can understand that here, and you have every right to question my beliefs if you wish, but that's just the way I feel.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
iliana
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19 posted 06-27-2006 03:38 AM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

What secret was exposed?

With respect to the poster, I don't understand why this is suddenly the news or even why the NY Times made it the news -- it's old news.  It has been going on for the past four years, see http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13561813/site/newsweek/ . Anyone who has money in an overseas account is informed (if it is a legitimate bank, that is) that the bank is required to give an accounting of any wire transfers to the U.S. - there may be a dollar limit on that, I'm not sure.  This is a fact that has been in effect for several years now.  So why all the sudden fuss?  Is it the disclosure of the processing center itself in Belgium?  Or is it just another election argument contending that anytime the truth is told about a known fact, it is jeopardizing (fear factor) Americans?  Are there some new provisions to the existing practice that we didn't hear about before.  I heard about them, didn't you?  I mean, after 911, how do you think they were able to find out about and freeze so many bank accounts suspected of fronting terror money under the auspices of being nonprofit organizations or otherwise?

I tend to be on the side of the right to privacy (although I don't have anything to hide) just because I do not want to lose a right I was born with -- when especially we could be focusing on protecting our ports, borders, identity theft, airlines, college enrollment for foreign students....many other things which have not been up to par.  Those enforcements would not deprive American citizens of rights guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States.  I mean, what next....our medical records are going to be nationally available....then what next? I believe many of our rights have already eroded and we have let it happen out of fear.  But, hey, it is not okay to racially profile with airport screening, but it is okay to look into everyone's bank accounts....give me a break!  

Just for kickers, how do you feel about the North American Security and Prosperity Partnership? Now, this is scarey....we didn't even hear about it until after the fact, and in effect, it sort of creates a new kind of nation....not the U.S. anymore...maybe, the new North American Union (kinda like the European Union)?  Where has the involvement of the other branches of government been with this one?  Sorry, I'm getting carried away, but please take a look at this anyhow.  I grew up with the notion this was OUR country, and yet, there was no congressional oversight in enacting this new "union."   http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/11/20041130-3.html

*Note to Ser*  Bleep...think everyone needs to see it...*wink*  btw, it's on its way.
  

[This message has been edited by iliana (06-27-2006 06:03 AM).]

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20 posted 06-27-2006 06:30 AM       View Profile for latearrival   Email latearrival   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for latearrival

Well, I did see a recent cartoon showing the three as one big country. Maybe we can annex Mexico in and get rid of all the aliens! I dislike the use of that word to describe our Mexican neighbors. martyjo
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21 posted 06-27-2006 10:34 AM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

The point is that even though it's been going on for the last four years, it's only been recently revealed.  The date on your msnbc link is June 26, 2006, not June 26, 2002.

'Here's where the building is located, here's an arial shot, here's what it looks like.  If you need anything else, Mr. Terrorist, just let us know how we can accommodate.'
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22 posted 06-27-2006 12:49 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Alicat - I knew about it.  I heard about provisions of the Patriot Act that provided for this to occur. (Not the name of the bank that is doing the gathering, but the Patriot Act that required it.)  So it is not new news except for the statistics themselves and where it is being done.  So do terrorists not have access to reading the Patriot Act -- bet your bottom dollar they've read it and probably laughed themselves silly.  The reason why I say this is because they want to end democracy, at least that is what we are told -- the Patriot Act and other government actions done to protect us do sacrifice some of our democratic freedoms -- so the terrorists were probably thrilled with some of the provisions in it -- after all, wasn't it reported that much of the money they passed around was done manually and not using bank accounts?  

[This message has been edited by iliana (06-29-2006 05:26 AM).]

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23 posted 06-27-2006 02:29 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

But, hey, it is not okay to racially profile with airport screening, but it is okay to look into everyone's bank accounts....give me a break!  - Iliana

I do agree, bro, we have to take in the record of NYT, if we will compare it to the record of the Bush Administration regarding honesty.
If that is so, "then I don't trust Daddy." - Serenity


You, ladies, are the people the NYT wrote the article for. That is their objective - comments like yours. Iliana, they do not look into everyone's bank account...that is YOUR exaggerative mind working again. You may want to be clearer of the facts before posting such material.

This article does not claim any laws were broken and no one states there were. They simply want to throw something out there to get people to have thoughts like yours....news based on innuendo. Serenity, you have the complete right to feel distrustful or anything else about Bush you want but comparing the Bush administration to the newspaper leaking this story makes no sense at all. You are doing exactly what they want you to do.....make an illogical jump from one to the other and say"Ah, that damn Bush just can't be trusted."  

I confess I find it impossible to believe that anyone would sanction the newspaper's actions here....in this thread no one does but several just use it as a springboard to go after Bush, while completely ignoring the topic. Congratulations. Mind control is alive and well.

Alicat, we are  a far cry from "loose lips sink ships", aren't we? Perhaps Al-Qaida will make the Times their Man of the Year. It would be well-deserved.
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24 posted 06-27-2006 02:55 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Mike, your words:  "It routes about 11 million financial transactions daily among 7,800 banks and other financial institutions in 200 countries."  Exaggerating?

Secondly....like I said, this is old news.  I did not bring up the topic; you did. The NY Times did and then Bush did, and then you did.  Political!  That's all. The terrorists have probably been avoiding banks ever since the Patriot Act was instituted....we know they deal in drugs and gems like tanzanite, diamonds, etc....mined in obscure African countries....and work on the barter systems....so why are the banks being checked?  Ask yourself, why? if terrorists are savvy to this and I feel certain they have been because they immediatly started changing their financial dealings after the Act was passed according to many experts.  

And, we do agree on one thing, yes, mind control is working.  If it isn't fear of the terrorists or illegal immigrants, then it is fear  of the government, eminent domain, and losing our own rights.  The fear factor is alive and well and sells lots of papers.  It's a hayday for either major political party anyway you look at it.  I see little difference in the parties these days....just different agenda....both use fear as a element to the campaigns.

In all fairness, even though it has been known about the banks reporting information for several years, I had not heard where this was being done and I can understand why that is something that did not need to be divulged unless it was to draw our attention to how many accounts are being watched.  When a reporter quotes numbers then they should give the source of their information or it may not be considered credible.  That is really a big number and if that is how many suspected terrorists there are, wow, we really are in trouble, and I have a hard time believing it.

[This message has been edited by iliana (06-27-2006 03:29 PM).]

 
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