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Jose, Can You See???

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Liz Sinclair
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since 05-06-2006
Posts 93
Atlantis


25 posted 05-10-2006 12:30 AM       View Profile for Liz Sinclair   Email Liz Sinclair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Liz Sinclair's Home Page   View IP for Liz Sinclair

I'm in Dallas, Tx.  This is an extremely hot issue here.  The one aspect of this issue that irritates me is the educational issue.  I have a child in middle school.  In her class alone, there are 8 children who do not speak English.  In the classroom, the teachers spend half their time with the English speaking students and the other half with the Spanish speaking students.  You don't have to know calculus to figure this out.  My child is getting half an education.  The child that doesn't speak English is also only getting half.  They're both getting screwed out of a fundamental right...their education!  This may sound trivial and I certainly don't mean it that way.  But it's very irritating.  I am all for people making a better life for themselves.  We all want that and we all deserve that.  However, achieving that should not be at anothers expense.
inot2B
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since 09-18-2000
Posts 2272
Alabama


26 posted 07-09-2006 05:33 PM       View Profile for inot2B   Email inot2B   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for inot2B

I am tired of hearing that only illegals will work, there are many Americans who can and would take the jobs, but most companies request that you speak Spanish to work for them.  
As an American I am told to follow the law or be punished, I expect anybody who wants to become an American to do it legally, or be picked up and made to leave my country.
For those who hire and pay illegals, they should be punished.
Balladeer, I read your posts all the time, and find that I agree with you 99% of the time.  Sometimes I'd like to respond to you, but after reading some of the other responses against you, I just get fed up with the same old garbage they put out and I give up.  I'm just glad that you don't give up and keep standing up for how you feel.  Thank you.
Balladeer
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Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


27 posted 07-09-2006 10:54 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Thank you, into2B. I sppreciate your kind words and your support. God will see fit to close my mouth one day but, until He does, lips will continue to flap.
LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


28 posted 07-10-2006 07:26 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

I heard the New York Mayor Bloomberg say that if Illegal immigrants would be deported, it would shut New York City down, as they are doing jobs that American's won't do.  
http://www.ny1.com/ny1/content/index.jsp?stid=1&aid=60729


Honesty, this comment to me is so frustrating/so demeaning/so unrealistic and a perfect example of how businesses control the decissions of our country.  

1.  What did we do before immigration?

2.  Businesses hire illegal immigrants for minumin wage or less...and in doing so, they've been reaping the benifits of such, sitting high on the hog for years...of course Americans wouldn't work for minumin wage or less, how can anyone live on that salary today?  Illegals live together, many families in one household.  

3.  If businesses hired Americans, they'd be forced to pay a decent wage, match social security, and pay benefits.

Businesses have been capitalizing for years, by using illegal immigrants as employees, and like everything else, this buys votes.  

I'm not against anyone wanting to live in the US...but they should be a credit to their community...learn English, teach their children English and assume the responsiblity of becoming a citizen of the US.

This should be accomplished by controlled supervision and putting our immigration laws into effect.

Some would like to tell us that deporting these illegals would be costly...well, right now, it's costing the tax payers of the US much more money then they are aware of...as these illegals are entitled to our systems funding, welfare, tax free paychecks..etc.  This, to me, divides the country...and is certainly not cost effective for the US as a whole.  

It should be a priviledge to be an American...realizing the responsibility of such...to both citizens and country.

Deer, I am so totally with you on this issue.


Thank you for the opportunity to contribute my point of views on this subject.  

Mysteria
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since 03-07-2001
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British Columbia, Canada


29 posted 07-10-2006 12:33 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

For what it's worth I have 2 cents to throw in the pot.  Mike, as you know, Canada has a more hospitable social welfare system, unfortunately.  Therefore, an ever increasing number of illegal immigrants are attempting to enter the United States from our Canadian borders now, and we know it.  They come in through Canada by claiming their refugee status through a far too relaxed refugee procedure. All it takes when they arrive here is to make a written application and promise to attend a hearing.  They attend, say a few words, and then are released, and free to go wherever they wish, and they do.  Many cross the border to the U.S. just as soon as possible after they enter, and Canadian Immigration has lost them!  

Unfortunately, those people all seek the United States with the hopes and dreams of better economic prosperity, that great "American Dream" you offer. Because millions of legal trips across the Canada-United States border are made each and every single day, as both the US and Canada are each other's largest trading partner, border officials are reluctant to interfere with legal commerce and traffic between the countries by creating more time-consuming border-crossing procedure, and therefore they get in.  

Trust me on this, we sure have our own issues going with the "legal" immigrants here, never mind the illegal ones.   I want our immigration procedures really tightened up, and I think a lot here are working toward that goal, so it may help you in the long run.  Just lately we are seeing people finally getting deported, and rightfully so, but we kept them on our dollar all the time it took to cut the red tape and get them home.
Balladeer
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30 posted 07-10-2006 01:59 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Yes, Mysteria, we offer the American dream. MacDonald's also offers hamburgers but you still have to stand in line and then pay for them   May both of our countries get this sorted out...

LeeJ...I agree with your thoughts completely. Thank you for sharing them
LeeJ
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31 posted 07-14-2006 09:53 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Mike, saw this and thought you might like to read...hope the link works, if it doesn't let me know...this is the way it should be throughout America and used to be...our laws on this subject over the years have been completely ignored


http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-quotejul14,0,4074747.story?coll=all-news-hed
Grinch
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Whoville


32 posted 07-14-2006 07:04 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
I'm not against anyone wanting to live in the US...but they should be a credit to their community...learn English, teach their children English and assume the responsiblity of becoming a citizen of the US.


quote:
It should be a priviledge to be an American...realizing the responsibility of such...to both citizens and country.


LeeJ

Two questions spring to mind:

1 Would you give citizenship to anyone who fulfilled your criteria
2 Would you remove citizenship from anyone who fell short


rhia_5779
Senior Member
since 06-09-2006
Posts 1304
California


33 posted 07-16-2006 01:45 PM       View Profile for rhia_5779   Email rhia_5779   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rhia_5779

What if they can't afford even a green card? As for stopping illegal immigration, where there is a will there is a way. I don't think we could stop it. We need to fix Mexico first. Nip it in the bud. Go to the root of the problem fix that, than work our way up.   The reason they come here is cause Mexico is in such bad shape, that they want a better life. They maybe don't do it legally, because they could be worried the U.S.A might refuse their requests.  Face it, the way it is now, if we leave Mexico in such bad shape, we won't ever stop illegal immigration.  There is so many open spots among our border that they could get in through. I would cost alot of money to block off all of that land.  People who are desperate to save their familes, and desperate to get a differnt life, they will find a way to get in our country.  

I don't see anyone complaining about people who go back and forth between the U.S and Canada. There is no big scandal about that either.

Also, would you deport the hundreds of Latinas here illegally who would be going home to die. The amount of time to apply for a green card, would be enough to kill those who once left to get out of gang life, or to get out of stealing, or who gave up jobs to come.  
Alicat
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since 05-23-99
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Coastal Texas


34 posted 07-16-2006 04:56 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Can't afford a greencard?  Those are practically free, even if you didn't compare/contrast them to the current goings rates, in USD, which Coyotes demand for 'safe' passage into hostile environmental situations like the desert wastes of New Mexico and Arizona.  They are considered desert wastes for a very good reason: they are.  If you truly can't afford one, the State Department, at taxpayer expense, will give you one.
iliana
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since 12-05-2003
Posts 13488
USA


35 posted 07-16-2006 04:59 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

I am surprised no one has brought up the "North American Union" in this thread.  I was hoping to see some discussion on that here.
Alicat
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Coastal Texas


36 posted 07-16-2006 05:26 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

That's another thread which I started some time back, but it got rather quiet after I was painted a racist for questioning the legality of folks in the country illegally.  Search for NAU or similiar and you should find it.

Found.
http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum6/HTML/001358.html

[This message has been edited by Alicat (07-16-2006 06:54 PM).]

LeeJ
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37 posted 07-17-2006 09:27 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Good Morning...  Grinch wrote

LeeJ

Two questions spring to mind:

1 Would you give citizenship to anyone who fulfilled your criteria  

Not my criteria Grinch, but the existing immigration laws on the books...  http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/lawsregs/index.htm

I saw a group of "Legal Immigrants" discussing this issue on TV, who are American Citizens and they felt the same way.  They are US citizens and very proud to be working members of the community...they felt it a slap in the face to US citizens and to them...I admire them a great deal, and am very happy to welcome them as member of the neighborhood, shows they are law abiding citizens and would be an asset to the community.



2.  Would you remove citizenship from anyone who fell short?

What do you mean by falling short?  

Citizenship, once gained, can not be removed, can it?  Isn't that against the law?...

The FBI just last week, caught 10 men coming through the Mexican Boarder who have terrorist ties, with the telephone numbers of their contacts who are based here in New York City, written on the bottom of their feet.

Did you know that 1/3 of illegal immigrants are criminals?  Sex offenders, drug runners, etc.?  They drive cars without car insurance, without a license, without speaking English, they cannot read signs, they obtain illegal documentation, social security cards, etc., and they feel it is their right to do so?  They fear no consequences for their actions?  They feel it is their right to do so.

The INS estimated in Jan. of 2000 there were 7 million illegal aliens living in the US, and growing by 1/2 a million a year.

Does anyone know the numbers now?

There are many of them who ARE Good Workers, Good people, but unfortunately, there are many who take advantage of our federal systems...but is it right for them to be breaking the law?  Is it right for them to be here illegally?  Is it right for them to assume our laws do not apply to them.

There must be controlled regulations & laws enforced and abided by, otherwise, things become chaotic and corrupt...
and this situation has...
http://freedomfolks.blogspot.com/2006/07/why.html

Have Illegal Immigration laws slid off the books?  How did this situation ever escalate to this degree to begin with? (shacking my heard)

If it were up to me, I'd deport every illegal immigrant and for example only allow, lets say 20 illegals into the U.S.  at a time.  They should be expected to be law abiding people, learn English, go through an educational system of the immigration requirements…just as it was before…when they pass and become citizens, allow 20 more in…etc.

Here's an example…I have a Chinese friend who came here.  She couldn't speak English.  She learned the language, worked her way through college...and is now a legal American, who is a working member of the community.  She is proud to be an American, (her very words are “It Is A Privilege & a dream come true, for me, to be an American) and will tell you that, and also feels the very same way on I do on illegal immigration.

It isn't right, to allow all these people in this country illegally...it's a recipe for disaster...

Sometimes we have to make decisions that are unpopular, perhaps they seem unfair, but, the law is the law, and there should be no preference (and by the way, this is how problems start, by manipulating, or changing laws to accommodate criminals, including illegal immigrants.  It has to be that way, sorry to say.  

Yanno, there are an awful lot of citizens out there who uphold and abide the law…what does this say to them?  

I believe if your hearts in the right place, you wouldn’t want to break the law, there would be guilt, a feeling of fear for breaking the law, and yet, this is exactly what we’re loosing in the U.S.   along with respect for life, respect for rules and the law.  If and when people feel that laws do not apply to them…what happens?  What is the long term effect?

Immigration laws are not something new, unfortunately, they have been something ignored for many years by our government, both parties are involved here.

I fear when our government officials believe they are beyond the laws…this starts a trickle down effect…and filters through out society, and our Illegal Immigration problem right now, is a perfect example.

I feel anyone has the right to capture a dream, to fulfill their hopes of becoming an American...but by the law and for the law...
with respect and regard for the other members of the community.

Would you allow someone to come to your home and stay and break all your house rules?  What applies to one, must apply to everyone.

[This message has been edited by LeeJ (07-17-2006 11:33 AM).]

Grinch
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Whoville


38 posted 07-17-2006 06:21 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


LeeJ

Let me put it another way, if there is a set of criteria that allows the granting of citizenship do you believe that anyone who meets those criteria should be given citizenship?

Whether my second question was legal or not doesn’t really matter, I was interested in what YOU believe should happen.

My opinion, for what it’s worth is that if a set of criteria exists by which individuals are given or denied citizenship there should be a mechanism in place that ensures existing citizens are fit to hold that position. That all citizens were required to fulfil the criteria and citizenship denied to all equally if they failed to measure up.

Without that mechanism the granting of citizenship would seem to be unfair, people would be denied citizenship when they clearly could be better citizens than some that already held that position.

If you have to be a Ferrari owner to be in the Ferrari Owners Club isn’t it reasonable to withdraw membership to an existing member who sells his Ferrari?

Grinch
rhia_5779
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39 posted 07-17-2006 07:22 PM       View Profile for rhia_5779   Email rhia_5779   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rhia_5779

Might i mention that every single one of the Illegal immigrants are criminals! thats why they are called Ilegal!.

but yes im sure u are right in that 1\3 are probaly drug runners such like that.
LeeJ
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40 posted 07-18-2006 08:22 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Hi Grinch and Good Morning

Hmmmm, ok, so what your saying is, if you don't have a red Ferrari, then your exempt from the club...

Ok, here's my thoughts on the subject and clearly I'm not on the fence with this issue.

I believe the process would be long and hard, but yes, certainly a criteria should be set in place…The already Immigration laws/rules and regulations should be reviewed, perhaps revised and stringently implemented, to ensure the safety of immigrants and US citizens, alike.  

The initial visa review process should be enforced with an in depth name check, from our world’s security data bases, comprehensive information drawn from all countries and their law enforcement agencies.  

If security concerns are raised, then the process should be delayed until that person can be cleared by additional checks, interviews and information, not only gathered but stored in the world data base.

Registration should be mandatory and a must to live here regardless of intent to visit, work, go to school or become a citizen.

All Illegals would be finger printed and must, while in this country, adhere to all rules, regulations and laws or be deported, never to be able to obtain a visa or citizenship to America again.  An illegal immigrant would not be able to purchase a gun until they are cleared and become a citizen...why, how would they know our gun laws if they cannot read?  If caught, they would be deported, never again to apply for citizenship.

While here, they should have to report back to immigration profligately, regarding any change of personal information, and all this information shall be stringently monitored, including their where a bouts, which should always be known by our government agencies in control & constantly monotoring their activity.....again, if violated, they should be deported without passing go, without collecting $200.00.   No one is exempt from the due process.

While here in America, they should be expected to attend English classes, along with driving classes and instructed on the proper I.D. they must and will maintain on their person while here.  

Classes on our laws would be mandatory, along with the due process they must fulfill…

If any car owner issues them an automobile, without the proper I.D. and a temporary immigration driver’s license, then that person shall be fined heavily.  

The immigrant will be expected to purchase and maintain proper insurance on their car.  If an immigrant owns an automobile, and is caught without car insurance, they will be deported.   (Adding here, according to my son, I cannot tell you the amount of immigrants who are driving illegally, without car insurance, they cannot read, therefore, cannot understand road signs.  

An illegal immigrant will not operate an automobile, until they can pass a drivers test, including reading and understanding English.    

In stead of having bi-lingual schools, there should be mandatory English classes for students, while in school.  

While here, anyone who employs immigrants shall maintain basic health insurance for that person, pay into social security for that person, reporting to the immigration bureau that they are employing an illegal and taking said taxes and social security out of their checks.  

Any employer who hires an illegal shall be monitored by the bureau, and if they are found to be hiring immigrants, illegally, they shall be fined heavily and according to their offenses by judged by jury.  They will also be fined for paying illegals less then minimum wage.

Any employer of illegal immigrants must fill out forms for each illegal they hire, which would be monitored by the said agency (s).    

Now, as far as my stands for any illegal immigrant that becomes a citizen of the U.S., (your Ferrari Club) once they are a citizen, they must adhere to all the laws.

If a law is broken, then they are dealt with like any other citizen, respected as such, as they are innocent until proven guilty through our judicial system.  

Once they are a citizen of the U.S. they may of course maintain an American life style, but…while here as an illegal immigrant, they are not allowed to participate in any protest what-so-ever or vote, until they become a legal Citizen of the United States.  

You stated this…

Without that mechanism the granting of citizenship would seem to be unfair, people would be denied citizenship when they clearly could be better citizens than some that already held that position.

I agree, but, in the same, laws are laws and if someone has a criminal background, they should not be allowed to enter the U.S. or become a citizen.  I’m talking drug involvement, terrorist ties, murder, rape and/or a history of armed robbery.  We have enough of our own criminals running around free in this country.  

You stated…..”If you have to be a Ferrari owner, to be in the Ferrari Owners Club isn’t it reasonable to withdraw membership to an existing member who sells his Ferrari?”

Understand fully the comparison you’re making…but as long as we have citizens in the United States who are walking free…how can you deport anyone?  

Then I say all criminals should be treated the same…kept under stringent surveillance and incarcerated for whatever time our judicial system dictates by jury.  

That said, if an immigrant knows that he/she might be deported if they broke a law after they become a U.S. citizen, such as terrorist ties, drug running, rape, murder, or armed robbery, perhaps the fear of deportation, might just keep them in check, but, I maintain, if that be the case, then we must also crack down on our already existing criminals in the U.S. who are citizens, but a menace to society, but that would be another thread, wouldn’t it.    

Actually, I believe if our immigration laws and regulations would be stringently put into place, and executed it might also encourage & strengthen America to be more stringent with our own criminals…our laws really do need to be addressed, yanno, adding, no one would be exempt from, regardless of race, creed, religion, title…period.  

I believe as in anything else, if there are rules to follow, it illeviates chaos and corruption.  sometimes rules may not always seem fair, but they are there for a reason and should be respected by all.  

Allow me to remind you, if I may, and this is not directed at you Grinch...but us all...when we visit someone else's home, we are expected to respect their rules...and that goes for country, state, family, neighbors, etc.  (Respect is a word, that should be remembered at all times).

Thank you Grinch for asking...

rhia_5779
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since 06-09-2006
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California


41 posted 07-18-2006 10:49 AM       View Profile for rhia_5779   Email rhia_5779   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rhia_5779

some of them can read. and wut does protesting have to do with anything?

they can protest all they want i think.

thats like saying you have to be a citizen to dislike bush.
if they do t like something they should be allowed to protest it
LeeJ
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since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
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42 posted 07-18-2006 12:50 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

rhia_5779

if your visiting China, or any other country in the world, and you don't like something, what do you think would happen if you took the American Flag and protested up and down in front of everyone, and why do you think it would happen?

Or better yet, if you went to your relatives home, and they served something you didn't like, what would you do?

They are visiting this country and not a member of the community, in fact, they are ILLEGAL, (not yelling but emphasizing the issue) actually they are and not all, but most are taking advantage of our system, driving without licenses, some of them have several social security cards for every sur name they own...I mean, to them, anything goes...they know nothing of humbleness, what it means to be a visitor let alone the word respect.

It is a disgrace to Americans and this land, that they have the nerve to protest.  Sorry, to be so blunt and I apologize for my cut and dry critique, but and this is only my opinion, so so many people today, know nothing about respect and humbleness.

They believe that everything is owed to them, and they have the right to expect it, without putting a foot forward or concern as to how their actions effect/affect others.

Here they are, a group of illegal aliens, here only b/c our laws have been ignored...and they have the nerve to form protests?  They have the right to vote, and they are not citizens, they cannot speak English or Read English...they drive and cannot read signs, know our traffic laws and endanger others, not to mention, how many terrorsits slip through every day?

Laws are laws which should be upheld and no one but no one should expect a free ride, just as no one but no one should expect to put me up if I knock on their door.  How would you like it if I came and lived with you, on you, didn't pay my half of the rent, or grocery bill, but I live there...same thing.  

I think it's awful that citizens of the US have employed them for years and have reaked the benefits of paying them horrible salaries paid nothing into social security, no taxes, etc...and they're going to cry now that our country couldn't get along without illegals, as they would have us believe.  They should be the ones fined heavily for hiring ones so down on their luck and willing to work for anything.  I think it's a disgrace.  Americans couldn't live on that kind of salary, plus, Americans don't live together in one home...therefore could not survive week to week making that kind of salary.  Americans should be ashamed for hiring them, it is an insult to this country and to human dignity.  

Oh and also, we need to fix this coutry first, before we can be of help to fixing other countries.  Do you know how many countries have borrowed monies from us, never paying us back?  Have you any idea why Mexico has their own president?  I'm not against anyone who wants to live in this country but it must be organized, and it can be fixed, no matter what anyone else says, this is a problem that shouldn't be and could have been avoided....not to mention, it is a problem that will divide nationalities if it persists, as it is breaking the camels back.

That is what I believe, but I'm open to suggestions.
Just my thoughts.


Skyfyre
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Sitting in Michael's Lap


43 posted 07-18-2006 02:55 PM       View Profile for Skyfyre   Email Skyfyre   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Skyfyre

I don't think the blame for having the 'nerve' for protesting is a burden the illegals should bear alone ... what about the native, or naturalized US citizens that not only cheered them on, but perhaps goaded them into it to further their own political ends?

The US began as a country of immigrants, yes.  However there are only so many citizens that a social system can support - so many mouths it can feed, if you will - whether they be working or living on the public dole.  There are only so many jobs, places to live, schools and so forth available and they must be sufficient for the needs of ALL the residents, legal and illegal, of the US.

Over 30 million US citizens live at or beneath the poverty level.  Let's assume half of them get public assistance of some kind.  Then let's look at all the assertions of the pro-immigration groups that say immigrants do jobs US citizens don't want, for less pay.  Then let's say that since they take the lower paying jobs, there are an equal number of impoverished illegals living in the US, and that they also qualify for the same level of public assistance.

If the money is only there to pay for 150 million of them, who gets paid, and who gets turned away?
LeeJ
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Posts 13093
SE PA


44 posted 07-20-2006 07:15 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Skyfrye
I don't think the blame for having the 'nerve' for protesting is a burden the illegals should bear alone ... what about the native, or naturalized US citizens that not only cheered them on, but perhaps goaded them into it to further their own political ends?

Yes, I thought about that during the protests, but forgot to mention my feelings on this subject while writing and I agree whole heartidly.


The US began as a country of immigrants, yes.  However there are only so many citizens that a social system can support - so many mouths it can feed, if you will - whether they be working or living on the public dole.  There are only so many jobs, places to live, schools and so forth available and they must be sufficient for the needs of ALL the residents, legal and illegal, of the US.

Your right here as well, but...my heart would hang heavy agreeing totally with this.  If people who are hard working respectable people want to come into the U.S. to escape a horrible life...to better themselves and their families, then how can we turn them away?  If they want to go through the system legally?  


Over 30 million US citizens live at or beneath the poverty level.  Let's assume half of them get public assistance of some kind.  Then let's look at all the assertions of the pro-immigration groups that say immigrants do jobs US citizens don't want, for less pay.  Then let's say that since they take the lower paying jobs, there are an equal number of impoverished illegals living in the US, and that they also qualify for the same level of public assistance.

Good Point...

If the money is only there to pay for 150 million of them, who gets paid, and who gets turned away?

I don't believe there is anyone in the U.S. who wants to see human beings treated unfairly...I really don't.  But in the same, no one wants to feel like they're being taken advantage of.  I believe it's the hard core expectations of the illegals, not to mention 9/11 that really grabs most Americans by the throat, instead of their hearts.

This should have never happened...it never should have come this far, but it did, and there's no going back.  What we can hope for is change, and fairness, on both side of the coin.  Understanding and our governement to put our laws in place and demand that they are abided by, for all Americans.  

Thank you Mike for this thread and the opportunity to discuss...I wish there were an answer that would help everyone all the way around...unfortunately, sometimes we must make unpopular decissions...and we're not all always going to agree with those decisions...all we can do is try and learn and hope for the best.

Human life, should be put first and foremost, no matter what country your from...but in the same, we cannot sit back and allow chaos to take place either, that way, we can be no help to anyone.  


Skyfyre
Senior Member
since 08-15-99
Posts 1966
Sitting in Michael's Lap


45 posted 07-20-2006 07:49 PM       View Profile for Skyfyre   Email Skyfyre   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Skyfyre

quote:
Your right here as well, but...my heart would hang heavy agreeing totally with this.  If people who are hard working respectable people want to come into the U.S. to escape a horrible life...to better themselves and their families, then how can we turn them away?  If they want to go through the system legally?


We're not talking about legal immigrants, though.  If you want to put it that way, should we turn away a Mexican person who has applied for entry and is patiently waiting his turn at the American dream because one of his more rash countrymen got here first, illegally, and we only have the resources to care for one of them?

There are many reasons for regulating immigration, not the least of which is that we can theoretically control the rate of population growth.  Despite all that America stands for, we cannot house all the unfortunate of the world; it's just not physically nor economically possible.  That's where foreign policy and foreign aid come into play to help pick up some of that slack.
LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


46 posted 07-21-2006 11:13 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

sky

part of your quote is what I was referring to...
quote:
There are only so many jobs, places to live, schools and so forth available and they must be sufficient for the needs of ALL the residents, legal and illegal, of the US.



quote:
should we turn away a Mexican person who has applied for entry and is patiently waiting his turn at the American dream because one of his more rash countrymen got here first, illegally, and we only have the resources to care for one of them?


unfortunateky sky, there must be order, which means, if I'm standing in line waiting for tickets and they run out of tickets the person before me, am I still entitled to a ticket?

I'm going to add one more thing to your last comment Sky

We cannot as a whole, as a nation, community or individual help someone else, until we are in good shape, and I just think, we have a ways to go.  

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


47 posted 07-21-2006 02:21 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Citizenship, once gained, can not be removed, can it?  Isn't that against the law?

Perhaps the law should be changed, Lee?

I would guess that not more than one born-and-bred American out of a thousand really "knows" English, and probably even fewer could pass the written tests your Chinese friend had to pass. Sadly, you and I don't have to work at being Americans and, very clearly, most don't. Citizenship is generally something given, not something earned.

In that way, I guess it's a bit like human rights?

Unfortunately, we can't really deport someone for splitting an infinitive or habitually appearing to not know the difference between the possessive 'your' and the contraction you're, if only because we don't have anywhere we can send them.

quote:
There are many of them who ARE Good Workers, Good people, but unfortunately, there are many who take advantage of our federal systems...but is it right for them to be breaking the law?  Is it right for them to be here illegally?  Is it right for them to assume our laws do not apply to them.

I don't think it's right, no. I also don't think it's right when a born-and-bred American ignores the speed limit or fails to come to a complete stop at a posted intersection. Respect for the law in a civilized society is of paramount importance. We should probably remember, however, that respect has to be earned, not simply demanded.

Much of the problem with immigration laws, I think, is the same problem we face with drug laws today and with prohibition laws in the past. Slap a 25-mile-per-hour speed limit on a country road and you are going to encourage a LOT of people to break the law. Laws that can't realistically be enforced essentially train people to become criminals. Indeed, I know of no better way to promote disrespect for the law than to pass silly laws that make little sense or promote unfair regulations that affect some and not others.

As Grinch as repeatedly implied, Lee, until you are ready to impose the same conditions and constraints on your own citizenship that you would impose on that of others, you are essentially expecting people to meekly accept your unfairness. Historically, that doesn't seem to work too well. Witness the fall of Rome, the French Revolution, or even our own Boston Tea Party. Unfair laws will, and I suspect probably should, be broken. Unfortunately for society, when someone is branded a criminal, even if unfairly, they have less to lose should they break other laws. People tend to rise -- or fall -- to our expectations of them.

Without respect for the law, society crumbles in anarchy. In my opinion, breaking the law in never okay and, in that, I think we are all in agreement. However, rigid enforcement is not the only or necessarily the best way to engender respect. The first step is always going to be enacting GOOD laws, ones that are fair and enforceable.

In my opinion, Lee, every single problem you've raised isn't a problem with immigrants but rather a problem with people. Immigrants to this country certainly aren't the only ones breaking laws or abusing a system that is increasingly becoming a socialized quagmire. I think don't the problems we face with welfare, schools, health care, ad nausea, are caused by immigrants. I think they're caused by Americans who believe they are entitled to a good life.

Which brings me to a comment made by Balladeer ...

quote:
Can they be stopped from receiving government aid, drivers licenses, medical benefits, education, etc.....yes, they can. We simply need a government that will do it.


We're about half-way in agreement, Mike. I don't think it's in our own best interest to withhold education from anyone, because ignorance only perpetuates the problems we're trying to solve. Let's try, instead, to raise a generation that knows better? Similarly, refusing to allow people to apply for a driver's license only forces them deeper underground and insure what little regulation we can apply can no longer be applied. We do need to make getting a *valid* license more difficult, but a recent trip to my local DMV and several overheard conversations suggest that is already being started.

As to the rest, however, I agree completely. They shouldn't be entitled to government aid or medical benefits. Then again, I don't think most Americans should be entitled to it, either. As you implied in the same post, they should get off their collective butts and work for it. The American Dream is an opportunity, not a guaranteed entitlement.

Again, these aren't problems with immigrants. These are problems with people.

quote:
We cannot as a whole, as a nation, community or individual help someone else, until we are in good shape ...

Helping others is a bit like having babies, I think.

If everyone waited until they could afford it, until the circumstances were optimum and there was no personal risk of being hurt, I suspect a whole lot of us wouldn't be alive today.

When you look out your window and see a group of hungry people huddling in the street, it's easy to give in to your first reaction and immediately lock all the doors, especially when you can clearly see that all those people look and talk and act differently than you and the rest of your neighbors. Obviously, that doesn't solve any problems for the hungry.

Less obviously, however, it doesn't solve your problem, either. Your locked door is a lie, a fantasy, at the very best, providing nothing but a false sense of security. From the Great Wall of China to the infamous Berlin Wall, no barrier has yet to stand successfully against the indomitable power of desperation.


LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


48 posted 07-24-2006 10:51 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Morning Ron

you said...
quote:
Respect for the law in a civilized society is of paramount importance. We should probably remember, however, that respect has to be earned, not simply demanded.[/QUOTE}

Yes, I agree, but...we are not a civilized society, therefore the need to demand laws are adhered to is vital to sustain society.
And yes, respect must be earned..I agree...but again, if you went to a neighbors home from dinner, wouldn't you consider yourself a guest, a visitor and want to adhere to their house rules?

[QUOTE]Laws that can't realistically be enforced essentially train people to become criminals. Indeed, I know of no better way to promote disrespect for the law than to pass silly laws that make little sense or promote unfair regulations that affect some and not others.[/QUOTE}

But we're not talking about silly laws Ron, but the violation of immigration laws that are already on the books? (that most politicians refuse to respect and enforce) and also, adding, laws were put in place to protect people from perpetrators...

and yes, Grinch did imply that we need to impose the same conditions and constraints on our own citizenship that we would impose on others...
But that is not the issue, is it?  the issue is that there are many who have come to this country legally, and very proudly have responded to the laws in place to become an American Citizen.  And I don't believe it is "our" expectations we are discussing Ron, but the law on immigration already set in place.

Ron, what, in your mind would good laws be, regarding this issue.  I'm interested in your perspective?  

And what justifies these illegals to vote, when they cannot speak or read English.

Also, Ron, why would we reward illegals for breaking the law (granting them citizenship), isn't that sending an illogical message?  I mean granting illegals amnesty is total dispresect for the law.

[QUOTE} I think don't the problems we face with welfare, schools, health care, ad nausea, are caused by immigrants. I think they're caused by Americans who believe they are entitled to a good life.


this one I totally disagree with...it is costing American Tax payers billions and making life for the middle class and lower class even more difficult.

I'm for helping Mexico, might we find out why so many Mexicans are fleeing to this country?  Why they are being exploited by American business owners who are paying them mimimum wages or less...

Why not help clean up Mexico, & encourage Vicente Fox to clean up a corrupt government as well as other Latin American Governments?

I don't understand why these Illegals believe they should be above our laws?

Ron, it's also about regulating our social structure of it's people, enforcing their safety?  Yes?

Perhaps some of our immigration laws are outdated and need reform....but certainly not by rewarding those illegals already here permanent legalization?  If we do that Ron, then those that continue to come across the boarder will also be granted amnesty, how will that help our situation?  Our now ever present immigration Services is in dire need of enforcement...

How can we help others, when our own country cannot help it's own homeless, it's own people going hungry?  It's own children who have no parents, in adoption agencies, who are declining?  Actually that is what I meant and should have been more specific.  


Alicat
Member Elite
since 05-23-99
Posts 4277
Coastal Texas


49 posted 07-26-2006 07:31 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Ah, you were right Balladeer.  History Channel had a segment about border patrols and talked about Operation Wet back.  1953 under President Eisenhower and led to the deportation of over 1 million illegal immigrants, with about another 2 million heading back to Mexico of their own accord rather than risk getting caught.  Depending on what sites you read, the Operation was either draconian or simple law enforcement, but irrespective of revisionistic stances, it was very politically popular during the early 1950's.
 
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