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the Animosity answer

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Balladeer
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25 posted 04-24-2006 10:28 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Even though second-term presidents aren't running for re-election -- the Congress always is and the success or failure of the President's party is always, always closely tied to the general approval of the President.

Really! Well, you pointed out the huge popular approval numbers for Clinton just before the election in which the Democrats failed to win anything so how valid does that make your statement?

So, let me ask the direct question again in another way.  How does he get the people to follow him?

I'm curious as to your great interest in Bush's restoration of popularity. Is that really the answer you want or do you want the opportunity to debate any suggestion someone may offer. Ok, shoot me....I'm suspicious by nature

Let me give my direct answer again in another way. I have no idea. You will have to get input from someone else.

Local Rebel
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26 posted 04-24-2006 11:20 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Really! Well, you pointed out the huge popular approval numbers for Clinton just before the election in which the Democrats failed to win anything so how valid does that make your statement?



Really!! It's quite illustrative of the point.

The Democrats picked up 4 seats in the Senate -- forming the 50 - 50 split that would eventually lead to a Democrat majority when Geffords left the Republican party.

This was the first time in American History that exactly 50 Republicans and 50 Democrats were elected to the Senate.  

It was a close mirror to the Presidential Election which was decided by 537 votes in Florida, with the popular vote going to Gore and the Electoral College going to Bush.

Total votes cast for the House race in the 107th Congress:

Democrats 46,595,202 Republicans 46,738,619

Again very indicative of the tightness of the Presidential election.

An even better illustration of the point is Clinton's unpopularity in the first term after the missteps of the first couple of years vis a vis the successful bid of the Gingrich Contract With America and the Republican Revolution.

quote:

I'm curious as to your great interest in Bush's restoration of popularity. Is that really the answer you want or do you want the opportunity to debate any suggestion someone may offer. Ok, shoot me....I'm suspicious by nature



I'm an American.  I live here.  Work here. Raise my kids here.  The suggestion by McIntyre is quite frankly unnerving.  This country is -- once again as made obvious in this thread -- divided enough already and your 'uniter' friend and his cadre are responsible.  I'd hate to see the country get more divided -- wouldn't you?

I'm asking because I think it's good to understand and have civil discourse which is what six of the seven participants of this thread are doing.

[This message has been edited by Local Rebel (04-24-2006 11:59 PM).]

Balladeer
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27 posted 04-24-2006 11:44 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

...and your figures are quite illustrative of my point. With such a popular president, a man who had given us such a wonderful economy for eight years, why should the numbers even have been close? One would think it should have been a done deal for the Democrats....if people really believed what they were being told. Obviously they didn't.

This country is -- once again as made obvious in this thread -- divided enough already and your 'uniter' friend and his cadre are responsible.

Figures...I suppose the country had never been   divided before Bush....something else to add to his resume. I think that's kind of a strange statement to follow with I think it's good to understand and have civil discourse


Yes, I'd hate to see the country get more divided, too. Please ask the Democrats to stop!
Local Rebel
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28 posted 04-24-2006 11:53 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

So then you agree with McIntyre that Bush hasn't been partisaned enough for the base?
JesusChristPose
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29 posted 04-24-2006 11:57 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"An even better illustration of the point is Clinton's unpopularity in the first term after the missteps of the first couple of years vis a vis the successful bid of the Gigrich Contract With America and the Republican Revolution."

~ I am not sure what you mean here, especially since I am one of seven (lol), but Clinton took (is it Gigrich?) and company's Contract With America and brilliantly used it against Gingrich and the Republicans by taking credit for signing 7/10 points of contract into law.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Local Rebel
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30 posted 04-24-2006 11:58 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

...and your figures are quite illustrative of my point. With such a popular president, a man who had given us such a wonderful economy for eight years, why should the numbers even have been close?



You make the argument that Gore shouldn't have shunned Clinton.
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31 posted 04-25-2006 12:02 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

That's not my argument, reb. It should be yours...
Local Rebel
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32 posted 04-25-2006 12:03 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

I am not sure what you mean here, especially since I am one of seven (lol), but Clinton took (is it Gigrich?) and company's Contract With America and brilliantly used it against Gingrich and the Republicans by taking credit for signing 7/10 points of contract into law.




Thanks for correcting my typo.  I've fixed it now...

Yes, Clinton, faced with unpopularity -- triangulated his position against the Republicans, bounced back, and won re-election.
Local Rebel
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33 posted 04-25-2006 12:07 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

You can't have it both ways Deere..
Local Rebel
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34 posted 04-25-2006 12:22 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

As I consider it further Opeth -- you actually brought the salient point to the table.  It was Clinton's traingulation run that opened the door for third-party candidate Nader.

41's 'read my lips' (but don't look at my crossed fingers) opened the field for Perot and Buchanan.

Rove is tasked with the mid-term election -- Bush will play to the base.

McIntyre is right.
iliana
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35 posted 04-25-2006 06:10 AM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Hi, Reb....I've been following the thread.  

Yano....after listening to Fox News iand their talking heads in the wee hours of the morning, I have a feeling it may not be necessary to stir up division between the parties.  I kind of think the "fear" element/homeland security may be the card that is played.  
Local Rebel
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36 posted 04-25-2006 06:29 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

The only problem with the 'fear' factor Jo is that the electorate (and the world) don't trust him anymore.

But, where it could work -- which is what Rove is interested in -- is if the base trusts him -- that's where he'll be playing.  His mantra has always been 'play to the base'.

He wants to protect his 'permanent majority' though -- which means that if you only have 40% of the electorate you have to fracture the rest with a divisive issue.

Contrast that with the Reagan principle of finding an 80% isssue and getting in front of it.  The 80% issue that's hurting the most right now is gas prices which is what has some 65% of the people giving Bush low scores on his handling of the economy.  80 percent say the oil companies are gouging.

Even O'Reilly is saying the gas companies are gouging the public.  If Bush releases some reserves to push prices down, rattles his sabres at his big oil friends and is able to attach his name and the party to lowering gas prices -- they could close the November elections with at least a 3-5 seat majority.
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37 posted 04-25-2006 07:55 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

You make the argument that Gore shouldn't have shunned Clinton. - LR

That's not my argument, reb. It should be yours... - Deer

You can't have it both ways Deere.. - LR


Ok, you have me with that response. Normally I have some kind of idea what you mean but I'm completely in the dark with that last reply.

You educate us on the excellence of Bill Clinton as president. He was great for the economy, decimated the deficit, basically was scandal-free except for Monica, was investigated but could not be pinned down on anything, a man that some have referred to as the president that may go down in history as the best ever, a president with a huge popularity rating. You make the comment the success or failure of the President's party is always, always closely tied to the general approval of the President.  and yet you say that I make the argument Gore should not have shunned his support.  YOU should be the one saying Gore should not have shunned him. How could any incumbent party lose with such a popular all-star leading the battle? Should have been no contest. You are the one that can't have it both ways, my friend. Either Clinton was an asset or an ass. Either the Democrats felt his leadership would help them or they didn't.  They either felt that his actions while in the Oval office would encourage people to continue to vote Democratic or they didn't. The fact that they ran from him gives the answer. Quite a quandry, no? A wonderful, popular president whose support no one wanted....your argument should be why not? if you felt he was that good for America and the Democratic Party. Obviously his Democratic cohorts did not share your views....
Local Rebel
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38 posted 04-25-2006 07:42 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

If Bush releases some reserves to push prices down, rattles his sabres at his big oil friends and is able to attach his name and the party to lowering gas prices -- they could close the November elections with at least a 3-5 seat majority.

Me -- 6:29 A.M.



10:00 A.M.
quote:

WASHINGTON - Under election-year pressure to reduce surging gasoline prices,     President Bush on Tuesday halted filling of the nation's emergency oil reserve, urged the waiver of clean air rules to ease local gas shortages and called for the repeal of $2 billion in tax breaks for profit-heavy oil companies.

Still, experts said Bush's actions wouldn't have much impact on prices at the pump. The president warned that motorists would have to dig deep into their pockets all summer long.

Bush urged lawmakers to expand tax breaks for the purchase of fuel-efficient hybrid automobiles, a politically popular measure that's also supported by environmentalists. He also directed the     Environmental Protection Agency to use its authority to temporarily waive air quality laws in states if that would relieve a local gasoline supply shortage.

The White House was unable to say how much Bush's actions could affect the price of gas.

Bush said, "Every little bit helps."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060425/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush



And there it is -- they take a fork and go for the 80/20 game first -- brilliant strategy -- they couldn't have asked to have a dispute with Iran, have the possibility of Nuking Iran leaked to the press, have the unregulated petroleum futures market get the jitters, send crude sky-high and then have something to rally against at a better time.  How lucky can one President get?

Sorry Mike -- I was a little tired this morning -- I should have explained.  

The Democrats either ran ON Clinton's record -- or they ran AWAY from him.  You can't have it both ways.  Of course -- Gore ran AWAY from him.  But you brilliantly, with words and opinions that aren't representative of my position, make the case that he shouldn't have done that.

Additionally -- you're trying to have it both ways too with allegations made against Clinton that turned out to have no teeth.  That would mean you'd have to accept every allegation made against GW, like the one I very carefully didn't make above, as a valid scandal.

Separating ISSUES from scandals -- if you wanted to open a Clinton thread there are plenty of points I could help you bash on.    

Brad
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39 posted 04-27-2006 05:42 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
a man that some have referred to as the president that may go down in history as the best ever


Who in the world would say that?

Balladeer
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40 posted 04-27-2006 06:32 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LOL! For someone who has contributed nothing more to this thread than "You wanna bet?" and "Who in the world would say that?", you seem to be on a mission not to let it go. Having a boring day, Brad?
Brad
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41 posted 04-28-2006 07:18 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Actually, I'm pretty busy these days. But you know me, the moment someone says "the best ever" Or "one of the best ever" my buttons are pushed.

Would anyone, seriously, put Clinton in the same league as Washington or Lincoln, Teddy or FDR?

Would anyone seriously put Bush in that league?

And, to be honest, Bush is not in the same league as Buchanon or Johnson, Hoover or Harding.

We're stuck in an age of mediocrity (pun intended).

I'm not sure that's such a bad thing.

Mistletoe Angel
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42 posted 04-28-2006 09:29 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

What you just said, Brad, reminds me of the title track from an old Bruce Cockburn album titled "The Trouble With Normal", especially this lyric:

*

"It'll all go back to normal if we put our nation first"
But the trouble with normal is it always gets worse


*

While I have deep optimism that soon enough we'll discover fresh, independent, visionary voices which can build the fullest promise of our nation again cooperatively, I agree we are in a sort of mediocrity phase right now, and I certainly can never accept both Clinton or Bush as greater presidents we've had. I'd rank Clinton fair and Bush poor.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

iliana
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43 posted 09-29-2006 10:19 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

It's been several months since this thread started but it continues to be relevant.  

Curious if anyone's positions have changed?
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44 posted 09-29-2006 11:01 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Bush's has. His popularity level has gone from the low 30's to the upper forty's.
Local Rebel
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45 posted 09-30-2006 05:05 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

And gasoline?
 
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