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Passions in Poetry

BE CAREFUL.... what you eat....

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Goldenrose
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50 posted 04-16-2006 05:39 AM       View Profile for Goldenrose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Goldenrose

Rebel..Alicat..at last some discussion of a serious nature on this subject. I didnt WANT to close the thread..just felt it was going nowhere through lack of seriousness...

If i may ask a question here...the 73,000 deaths that have occured through ecoli, is this figure BEFORE they passed the bill? ..I should think that if this is the figure before the bill was passed and things were working ok then....does that mean we can expect more cases now?
Goldenrose.
Local Rebel
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51 posted 04-16-2006 10:50 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Well, that's the number of infections.  Deaths resulting from infection on average is 61 per year.

But, HR 4167 http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-4167 hasn't passed the Senate yet. It's only been passed by the Congress.  In order to become law it will have to be passed by the Senate and then signed by the President.  

This bill failed previously as HR 2699.  It's just been re-introduced in 2005 by Congressman Mike Rogers (R) of Michigans 8th district http://www.mikerogers.house.gov/LegislativeIssues.aspx and is conspicuously absent from his touted legislative issues.

What should be noted is that there is a major ideological conflict of State's Rights vs. Federal Authority that is at issue here.  Once again, when given the choice, Republicans in the House favor big government power over the Federalism they proclaim.  

quote:

The so-called "National Uniformity for Food Act" (H.R. 4167) is not a simple food-safety uniformity bill contrary to the claims of its proponents. This bill will preempt nearly 200 laws in all 50 states adopted specifically to protect consumers where the federal Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has failed to do so. State and local governments have carefully crafted these crucial public health safety standards and labeling requirements to fill the gaps left by the FDA. H.R. 4167 will preempt these vital laws with weaker standards that will put public health and consumer safety at risk.

-Preempts almost 200 state food safety laws and regulations in all 50 states.

-Effectively nullifies state regulations requiring that consumers be warned of toxic chemicals in foods that can cause cancer or birth defects, or that can trigger certain allergic reactions.

-Severely restricts the ability of states to enact new food safety laws and regulations.

-Removes the authority of state and local food safety officials from enforcing basic safety and labeling standards to address food borne disease and other dangers to our food supply by effectively nullifying state legislation enabling these actions.

-Exempts food manufacturers from complying with most state or local food safety protections that are more protective of consumers than FDA requirements—even in areas where the FDA has not acted.
http://www.supermarketguru.com/page.cfm/27581


http://www.afdo.org/afdo/HR4167.cfm http://www.neha.org/position_papers/positionHR4167.htm

But, how about a bill that requires what every musician knows?  (All Cows Eat Grass)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grass_fed_beef

JesusChristPose
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52 posted 04-16-2006 12:29 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

The quote in the reply above is based upon politica opinion. Take it with a grain of salt.

Once again, this entire thread is basically much ado about nothing, whether it was posted out of concern or political attack.

Nothing posted here is going to keep me from eating out. And as far as my own cooking, I am always careful, and I didn't need this thread to make me any more careful.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Local Rebel
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53 posted 04-16-2006 02:27 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Why should States be required to go to a bureaucratic agency to have permission to do what the Constitution of the United States permits them to do, which is to police powers for the safety and health and well-being of their own citizens?

No amount of kitchen safety is going to remove the threat of Mad Cow Disease from your burger Opeth.  Nor has it in the past.
Alicat
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54 posted 04-16-2006 02:45 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Now what in blazes does mad cow disease have to do with e. coli.  One is found in unhealthy cattle, the other found in every healthy mammal and avian in the world.  Apples and pineapples have apples in their names, but that's about it.
Grinch
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55 posted 04-16-2006 03:22 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
-Preempts almost 200 state food safety laws and regulations in all 50 states.

-Effectively nullifies state regulations requiring that consumers be warned of toxic chemicals in foods that can cause cancer or birth defects, or that can trigger certain allergic reactions.

-Severely restricts the ability of states to enact new food safety laws and regulations.

-Removes the authority of state and local food safety officials from enforcing basic safety and labeling standards to address food borne disease and other dangers to our food supply by effectively nullifying state legislation enabling these actions.


Some states say products containing nuts should say on the label “may contain nuts”, some say “contains nuts” others say “could contain nuts” and some don’t care what it says.

Some say the warning should be clearly displayed some that it has to be in a contrasting colour so it stands out and other states don’t mind as long as it’s there somewhere.

Some States insist that a pictorial warning accompanies the text, clearly showing that the product contains nuts others say the picture should be red if the product contains nuts and green if it doesn’t. Most States don’t require any picture at all.

All the above is hypothetical; the examples I’ve given aren’t real as far as I know but they do outline the problem that the bill is trying to address. Uniformity in food labelling will mean that everyone everywhere will get the same message in the same place that means the same thing.  If Mr Smith buys a candy bar in New York and a similar product in California he should be able to read one uniform message that tells him whether the candy bar contains nuts, as the labelling laws stand now he has to know the relevant State law or forego the candy.

Not only that think of National Candy Bars Inc. – they don’t care what it says as long as they don’t have to print and distribute 50 different wrappers for their candy bars – they aren’t looking to reduce food standards they’re looking to reduce costs.

Let’s suppose the new bill simplifies the problem by saying that all products that contain nuts should have the words “ contains nuts” clearly displayed somewhere on the packaging in a red box with a white background.

From the hypothetical example I’ve given above such a bill is going to supersede a lot of existing State laws, the question is whether the loss in state control is worth the benefits that uniformity brings.

As far as E. coli and food hygiene goes I’ve already said the bill has zero impact on food hygiene inspections and E. coli it is concerned specifically with food labelling, tying one to the others is a herring of a reddish hue.
Local Rebel
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56 posted 04-16-2006 05:16 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

from the already posted links above http://www.afdo.org/afdo/HR4167.cfm

quote:

"HR 2699 has been reintroduced in this Congress as HR 4167 by Congressman Mike Rogers (MI-8). This bill is identical to HR 2699, which failed to pass during the 108th Congress. Once again, state and local resources dedicated to ensuring consumer public health and safety in food processing, storage and retail sales are at risk. Similarly at risk is our non-federal resources directed towards ensuring compliance with Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE a/k/a Mad Cow Disease) and medicated feed regulations.

As before, this bill undermines proven consumer protection programs. This opinion is the collaborative position of Counsel for eleven (11) state food safety agencies. HR 4167 contains many provisions that will preempt state and local laws and ordinances. The preemptive sections of this bill will dismantle the authorities of all state and local laws that address adulterated foods which includes food laws, antiterrorism laws, etc. The preemption embodied in this legislation is broad, vague and sweeping. State and local food safety programs are our fist line of defense against acts of terrorism involving the food supply - now is NOT the time to dismantle the very programs that are essential to a national food safety system that maintains the safest food supply in the world..."

Marion Aller, President, AFDO



and

quote:

There is no question in our minds that the adoption of this legislation, in its current form, will destroy the ability of state and local food protection programs to identify and resolve situations involving adulterated food products. It will also destroy our ability to tailor these programs to the particular needs and circumstances of the communities we serve. We are also deeply concerned that the proposed legislation would remove the ability of local food safety programs to appropriately respond to a terrorism event involving food. In fact, we are concerned that local food safety programs would or could be decimated by the federal program envisioned in this proposed legislation.

The bill purports to establish uniform national food labeling standards. Were that the only aim or effect of the legislation we would not be taking this position. H.R. 4167 in our view, and in the view of the Association of Food and Drug Officials (AFDO) as well as numerous other public health and consumer protection organizations, goes far beyond this uniform labeling standard. It will impose a federal preemptive standard that will strip local and state food protection programs of their statutory authority to remove contaminated foods from the market place and to regulate food service operations consistent with the circumstances of particular local communities.

We respectfully suggest that this is bad public health policy. It also represents an unwarranted, though perhaps unintentional, intrusion into our local and state food protection programs – which are today responsible for effectively conducting 80% of the current food safety work being done nationally. Moreover, these programs are being implemented successfully! Why would we want to compromise them?

We urge caution before undertaking a congressionally mandated change in a food safety system that works effectively, is responsive to the nation’s needs and is in tune with local circumstances and opportunities.

NEHA would be pleased to work with you and your colleagues in addressing and correcting the deficiencies in this legislation. We look forward to hearing from you and we appreciate your consideration of our concerns.


http://www.neha.org/position_papers/positionHR4167.htm
  
Local Rebel
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57 posted 04-16-2006 05:51 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Cat

If you look at the previously posted CDC page and the WIKI page that you posted you'll see that the specific strain of e-coli we're talking about, which is Escherichia coli O157:H7, grows in the intestines of healthy cattle -- that's the source in our food supply.

It's not apples and oranges -- rather the difference between this strain and the multitude of other strains found in other mammals is more like comparing poodles and pit bulls.

Balladeer
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58 posted 04-16-2006 06:41 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

If i may ask a question here...the 73,000 deaths that have occured through ecoli, is this figure BEFORE they passed the bill? - Goldenrose

Well, that's the number of infections.  Deaths resulting from infection on average is 61 per year. - LR

I should think that if this is the figure before the bill was passed and things were working ok then....does that mean we can expect more cases now? - Goldenrose

HR 4167  hasn't passed the Senate yet. It's only been passed by the Congress.  In order to become law it will have to be passed by the Senate and then signed by the President. - LR


this thread was posted here because of the way the powers that be allowed it to get into the public domain - Goldenrose

No, sir. I submit that this thread was posted here because of a lack of effort to verify the facts in an eagerness to blame the "powers that be". You are blaming a bill for deaths that hasn't even been passed yet.

LR, I thank you for your thoroughness in presenting the actual facts in this matter.
Grinch
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Whoville


59 posted 04-16-2006 06:43 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
State and local food safety programs are our fist line of defense against acts of terrorism involving the food supply - now is NOT the time to dismantle the very programs that are essential to a national food safety system that maintains the safest food supply in the world


I think they have that covered:

IMMINENT HAZARD AUTHORITY.

State may establish a requirement that would otherwise violate section 403A(a)(6) or subsection if the requirement is needed to address an imminent hazard to health that is likely to result in serious adverse health consequences or death.

(Source H. R. 4167)

quote:
that will strip local and state food protection programs of their statutory authority to remove contaminated foods from the market place and to regulate food service operations consistent with the circumstances of particular local communities.


That too:

Nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibit a State from conducting the State's notification, disclosure, or other dissemination of information, or to prohibit any action taken relating to a mandatory recall, civil administrative order, embargo, detention order, or court proceeding involving food adulteration

(Source H. R. 4167)


Alicat
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60 posted 04-16-2006 07:26 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Reb, I wasn't talking apples and oranges about e.coli strains, but rather your introduction of mad cow disease into a discussion on e.coli and food labeling/safety legislation.  Guess I should've stuck with my first thought, non sequitor, instead of the more common fruit descriptors.  Looking over those posts, you only introduced 'mad cow' after I asked you where those morbidity/mortality incidences you referenced came from, since I was very curious to know.  Your answer: mad cow burgers.
Local Rebel
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61 posted 04-16-2006 08:28 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

nope...

not a non-sequitor either Cat
quote:

Similarly at risk is our non-federal resources directed towards ensuring compliance with Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE a/k/a Mad Cow Disease) and medicated feed regulations.
http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum6/HTML/001382-3.html#56



It's always been a part of the topic -- just because nobody here, in this thread, brought it up until I did doesn't make it not a part of the issue.

Deer   I do my best.

Grinch:  Subparagraphs don't explain a law -- so that's a dangerous sport to get into.  

This bill would allow states to work around the FDA -- if the FDA gives them permission to.  That's not Constitutional.  If it manages to pass the Senate and get signed by the President -- there are now 37 states that are objecting to the language in this bill-- expect it to get bounced into the Supreme Court post haste.

One thing in particular this bill will do is allow meat packers to package their products in carbon monoxide. What this does is allow the meat to LOOK fresh until the package is opened.  Most states don't allow this to happen.  The FDA reviewed this practice but hasn't 'studied' it -- therefore -- states won't be able to keep the current standard in place.
JesusChristPose
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62 posted 04-16-2006 08:50 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Balladeer asked the right question, of which there is no answer to support the whole "careful what you eat" concept.

LR,

There is much more risk for me to get into my car and drive to buy that hamburger than there is to (well, you mixed issues and brought in madcow) for me to become sick from e-coli. It is all a matter of perspective.

And I for one am sure that any company in the meat packing, producing, selling, cooking, etc., business would do its best to ensure the safety of our products. Afterall, if a particular company is so devious and careless to allow e-coli to spread, that company wouldn't be in business very long.

Balladeer's last reply puts the question right back on the owner of this thread. Bravo.


"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."
Local Rebel
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63 posted 04-16-2006 09:02 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

And I for one am sure that any company in the meat packing, producing, selling, cooking, etc., business would do its best to ensure the safety of our products.



Doing their best would be to raise the cows on grass.  Or at the very least feed them grass the last week before slaughter.  The cattle industry has chosen not to.

So your self-assurance is misplaced.

They've chosen instead to take the calculated risk that you will be killed on the way to buy the burger.
JesusChristPose
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64 posted 04-16-2006 09:09 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"Doing their best would be to raise the cows on grass.  Or at the very least feed them grass the last week before slaughter.  The cattle industry has chosen not to."

~ I thought this topic was about e-coli? However, the risk you believe is so dangerous to one's health is just that, your belief. Don't eat the meat, become a veggie.

"So your self-assurance is misplaced."

~ That is your opinion. I don't agree with it at all.

"They've chosen instead to take the calculated risk that you will be killed on the way to buy the burger."

~ That doesn't make any sense. If we go along that line of thought, I'd say to you, Your family member chose to take a calculated risk that you would be killed on the way to visit him or her.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Local Rebel
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65 posted 04-16-2006 10:12 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

~ I thought this topic was about e-coli? However, the risk you believe is so dangerous to one's health is just that, your belief.



If you'd bothered to read what's been posted or the source material then you'd know that the e-coli threat from cattle can be virtually eliminated by feeding them grass.

Unfortunately for you -- merely because you don't believe poison is bad for you won't keep it from adversely affecting your well being.

The beef industry knows that grass-feeding virtually eliminates the e-coli risk -- but it's difficult to introduce into the process on feed lots.  Translation -- they'd have to spend money to do it.

But, it's ok.... from now on -- you can hi-pot test all your own appliances since you're into kitchen safety.  
JesusChristPose
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66 posted 04-16-2006 10:45 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"If you'd bothered to read what's been posted or the source material then you'd know that the e-coli threat from cattle can be virtually eliminated by feeding them grass."

LOL... if I bothered to read opionated unproven propsganda, which I won't read. So save it for the easily duped.

"Unfortunately for you -- merely because you don't believe poison is bad for you won't keep it from adversely affecting your well being."

~ I guess I shouldn't breathe when I drive down the street because I am definitely breathing in poison. I guess I shouldn't drink tap water, we all know how much poison is in that. Do you eat potato chips or candy or drink soda? If so, you have to know about all of the poison in those items too, right?

"The beef industry knows that grass-feeding virtually eliminates the e-coli risk -- but it's difficult to introduce into the process on feed lots.  Translation -- they'd have to spend money to do it."

~ Who says they know? Who says that is true? A study, completed by a certain group have proven that so, yes?

"But, it's ok.... from now on -- you can hi-pot test all your own appliances since you're into kitchen safety."

~ LOL... hi-pot test kitchen appliances? Critical Thinking 101? Not.       


"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."
Local Rebel
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67 posted 04-16-2006 11:41 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

if I bothered to read opionated unproven propsganda, which I won't read. So save it for the easily duped



If this is the standard you apply to proofreading your own posts that explains it.

quote:

hi-pot test kitchen appliances? Critical Thinking 101? Not



Actually -- you're quite mistaken.  A hi-pot test (a high potential test) is the final extremely high-voltage test administered to your kitchen appliances (and other household electronic devices) to ensure there are no shorts or even potential shorts where components may be too closely placed.

It is analagous to your acceptance of defective beef at your own risk.  You should apply the same standard, just to be fair, to all your consumer purchases rather than hold manufacturers responsible for what they produce.

quote:

Who says they know? Who says that is true? A study, completed by a certain group have proven that so, yes?



Yes, people who study are actually able to learn things.
iliana
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68 posted 04-17-2006 09:37 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Low blows are thrown when an opponent is losing.  That's what I see happening here so often when someone doesn't have the resources to back up their argument -- instead of arguing with convincing facts, someone spits out an insult.

[This message has been edited by iliana (04-19-2006 12:49 AM).]

serenity blaze
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69 posted 04-17-2006 11:27 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Well.

Guess who ain't coming to dinner?



Sheesh, guys.
Local Rebel
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70 posted 04-18-2006 12:08 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Bukowski?  
serenity blaze
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71 posted 04-18-2006 12:23 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

the mad poet

when I told my sisters
that you had written me a letter
and signed your name with blood
they just cracked up
she said.

oh, I said, I'm glad
they liked it.

---Bukowski
8-26-74

* * *



* * *

JesusChristPose
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72 posted 04-20-2006 08:18 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"Low blows are thrown when an opponent is losing.  That's what I see happening here so often when someone doesn't have the resources to back up their argument -- instead of arguing with convincing facts, someone spits out an insult."

~ Care to name names?

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

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