How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 The Alley
 BE CAREFUL.... what you eat....   [ Page: 1  2  3  ]
 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

BE CAREFUL.... what you eat....

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Goldenrose
Member Elite
since 05-30-2003
Posts 3637


25 posted 04-14-2006 07:42 PM       View Profile for Goldenrose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Goldenrose

Believe it or not Baladeer i DO have the interest of the poets on PIP at heart, if you can make that into something else concerning the Bush administration then you must be quite sad and extremly embarrassed for them.At the very least i do HAVE a heart...

Goldenrose.
vlraynes
Member Rara Avis
since 07-25-2000
Posts 9136
Somewhere... out there...


26 posted 04-15-2006 05:00 AM       View Profile for vlraynes   Email vlraynes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit vlraynes's Home Page   View IP for vlraynes

Balladeer... believe it or not, not everyone
has a hidden political agenda.

Rather, some people care, simply for the sake
of caring... regardless of political implications

but if you choose to go looking for a hidden
agenda, you'll likely find one...even where
one does not exist...

I don't know Goldenrose, so I can't vouch for any
underlying motives that he may or may not have...
so, out of respect for him as a human being,
I choose to take his concerns at face value.

Goldenrose?...

I was not aware of this bill,
and found the information interesting...

Thank you for sharing it, and for your concern.



"When the power of love overcomes the love
of power the world will know peace."
--Jimi Hendrix
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


27 posted 04-15-2006 07:34 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
What should you be watching out for, grinch? I think the answer to that has become obvious...our horrible administration that has reduced powers of inspectors, put all of our lives in danger, and just don't care if we all drop dead of e.coli tomorrow or not.


When it comes to horrible administrations and the emphasis on the dangers ‘stateside’ , pots, kettles and the colour black come to mind:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/scotland/445997.stm



quote:
You also have to take it on trust that the plant puts the safety of it's customers first before any of it's own profits. Do you think that they will do that?


Yes, I take it on trust that reputable plants are following the highest hygiene standards; I also take it on trust that the food inspectors who visit those sites are checking those standards.

H.R. 4167 "National Uniformity for Food Act," the bill in question, is primarily aimed at getting uniformed food labelling – it has no connection to E. coli or health inspections, unless there’s some state out there that insists that all contaminated meat is labelled before being sold.

The bill won’t reduce inspections or impare the power of inspectors, it’ll just mean that all food will have uniform labelling – are there any downsides to this?

Sure - some states have labelling laws that are more stringent than those laid out in the Act for those states the new law is a backwards step but, in my view, the overall effect will be an improvement.

Goldenrose
Member Elite
since 05-30-2003
Posts 3637


28 posted 04-15-2006 08:56 AM       View Profile for Goldenrose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Goldenrose

Grinch i did not say the the UK didnt have problems, indeed i said we had a problem when elderly people began dying of ecoli,then we began to take things seriously, but isnt it strange how people tend to take things seriously only when human beings begin to die? Then it is too late..but you must choose to take it seriously or not ..but if you or anyone close to you gets sick through this...perhaps it will be serious enough for you then?..have a great easter...

Goldenrose.
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


29 posted 04-15-2006 12:31 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
isnt it strange how people tend to take things seriously only when human beings begin to die?


The people who died in Lanarkshire died in spite of all the safeguards put in place, since the deaths no additional safeguards have been put in place – in fact, as my link demonstrates, research into E. coli has been reduced since the deaths.

Why is that? Are the Government failing to take the threat posed by E. coli infection seriously? Or has the Government decided that we are in fact doing sufficient to minimise future outbreaks based on a potential risk analysis. Is it possible that the Government has realised that E. coli infection is in fact statistically more likely to occur in the home than in the food industry? Could it be that it has decided that the money would be better spent in that area, through education perhaps?

Or have the Government decided that the risk is so low it may be better to do nothing for fear of sensationalising a minor issue into a major health scare?

quote:
but if you or anyone close to you gets sick through this...perhaps it will be serious enough for you then?


In the category of things I’m likely to take seriously as a risk to my health E. coli is right up there with horses and household appliances – they’re all potentially fatal in certain circumstances but don’t generally induce me to panic.

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


30 posted 04-15-2006 12:37 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Yes, Vicky, some people are capable of seeing hidden agendas and some are capable of seeing what is before their eyes. My reply was based on the following comments by Goldenrose...

Now the inspectors cannot do their job properly

What this link says, if i am not mistaken, is that the inspectors powers have been removed

Now that the inspectors do not have much of a say, they are unable to do anything about the rogue plants and processors.

Before they could stop the bad meat before it got to the stores

I mean it was passed at night, when most people would have been sleeping, does somebody gain by the relaxing of these rules?.

I know the inspectors dont have the power to go after the processors.

now those inspectors have been moved out of view

let me re phraise the powers that inspectors have..they have no ''teeth'' to be effective

Unfortunately the inspectors have now had their power reduced.


Everyone reading this thread will form their own opinion as to the underlying message of the text. I simply expressed mine.

Goldenrose, please don;t think I feel you have no "heart" or are uncaring. I have no doubt you are sincere in the caring portion of your comments.

I wish you a good Easter holiday.

Goldenrose
Member Elite
since 05-30-2003
Posts 3637


31 posted 04-15-2006 01:03 PM       View Profile for Goldenrose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Goldenrose

Baladeer as Vicky pointed out if we all looked for political agendas in everything we write, then we would never actually get to the problem we are supposed to be addressing? Believe it or not i DO have the health of the people at heart...and no agenda...

Grinch... you are now seeing the problem..governments dont want to see the problem, to them everything is money orientated...that is why i am asking you to BE CAREFUL...i didnt say PANIC!!!...you see if you keep quoting my words you are trying to find an agenda that i do not have.???..you are tending to think that i am some how trying to belittle things in your country..dont forget that there are other countries here at pip too..including canada, australia, south africa, holland just to name a few..ecoloi doesnt discriminate,it will make any human being sick, now at what level of seriousness you take this is entirely up to you?...I was bringing this to your attention, dont shoot the messenger here..what i would say is that you can help yourself and others by maybe asking questions of the right people..again how far you take it is up to you and people as individuals ...i was merely informing of the dangers..perhaps there are some people here that would argue that black is white purely because they like the argument...but anyway..may i wish a great easter to all at the famous blue pages..

Goldenrose.

[This message has been edited by Goldenrose (04-15-2006 02:55 PM).]

Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


32 posted 04-15-2006 02:49 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

Goldenrose,

quote:
you are tending to think that i am some how trying to belittle things in your country


Actually I don’t think that at all, I think you’re trying to suggest that American food inspector’s ability to do their jobs is being infringed by the new bill and that consequently E. coli is a bigger threat or problem than it actually is.

If you ever do feel the urge to belittle my country btw please feel free, it’s the small island on the edge of Europe between Ireland and France.

quote:
dont shoot the messenger here


That’s my problem I don’t see any messenger or message worth aiming at, so far you’ve told me to ‘be careful’ and to ‘watch out’ but not what to watch out for. You’ve suggested an American bill on food labelling will stifle the powers of food inspectors (which it won’t) and you’ve tried to make what is normally a fairly innocuous malady into something akin to the Black Death.


quote:
perhaps there are some people here that would argue that black is white purely because they like the argument


Of course there are this is the Alley!

If you simply wanted to express your concern for your fellow poets you could have posted in Announcements & Links and left out the dubious reference to the food bill. Instead you decided to state that black was white and that the third and fourth riders of the apocalypse had been let loose ‘stateside’ because of a labelling bill passed at midnight while everyone was abed. Then you claim you were just being neighbourly when the facts you post are challenged and found wanting.

What did you expect from someone called Grinch sitting in an Alley – flowers?  

[This message has been edited by Grinch (04-15-2006 05:52 PM).]

Goldenrose
Member Elite
since 05-30-2003
Posts 3637


33 posted 04-15-2006 03:04 PM       View Profile for Goldenrose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Goldenrose

*edited by Alicat*

my arguments do hold water..this thread was posted here because of the way the powers that be allowed it to get into the public domain..this then is the rightful place to poet such a post..i didnt make the rules.on this...could you please allow someone else to maybe have a say?

I shall not reply to another post of yours after this....happy easter..

Goldenrose.

[This message has been edited by Alicat (04-15-2006 09:55 PM).]

JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 06-21-2005
Posts 679
Pittsburgh, Pa


34 posted 04-15-2006 03:23 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"... could you please allow someone else to maybe have a say?"

~ With all due respect, what we have here is much ado about nothing. You have more of a chance to die from choking on a piece of food than to die of e-coli. So with that in mind, I think a post about how to chew one's food properly needs more attention.  


"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."
Goldenrose
Member Elite
since 05-30-2003
Posts 3637


35 posted 04-15-2006 03:27 PM       View Profile for Goldenrose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Goldenrose

JCP..fine another one who finds that their health is not important...so be it.. it is your call..thanks for commenting anyway..

Goldenrose.
JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 06-21-2005
Posts 679
Pittsburgh, Pa


36 posted 04-15-2006 03:55 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"JCP..fine another one who finds that their health is not important...so be it.. it is your call.."

~ Whoah! That is one "slippery slope" you presented. So, what you are saying is this...

My health is not important to me because I don't care about the subject matter you posted.


~ Well, I think I know about what is important to me than you do. My health is important to me, however this "worry" of yours, just doesn't make my priority list. I believe both Grinch and Balladeer said it best.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


37 posted 04-15-2006 04:10 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
grinch i will tell you what i would expect from an adult (if that is what you are?) to do..stop hiding behind a silly childhood character and its persona and take the whole situation of the ecoli serious..


quote:
I shall not reply to another post of yours after this....happy easter..


pot, kettle, black?
Goldenrose
Member Elite
since 05-30-2003
Posts 3637


38 posted 04-15-2006 05:01 PM       View Profile for Goldenrose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Goldenrose

just to let people know i have asked for this thread to be closed as it obviously does not sufficiently interest or bother the people who may be affected. As a result of the childish response by some to what i deem to be an inportant subject, i have reluctantly decided to end the thread...thank you to those who took this seriously and for the people who can see what a genuine attempt this was to forewarn people of a potentially deadly bacteria...

May you all enjoy and remember the true reason for easter sunday...and God bless to all..

Goldenrose.
JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 06-21-2005
Posts 679
Pittsburgh, Pa


39 posted 04-15-2006 05:05 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

I don't celebrate Easter.  Now, it is time for me to go out and eat at any restaraunt I choose... if I should become e-coli infected, I will certainly let you know, or have someone in my stead do so.



"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

[This message has been edited by JesusChristPose (04-16-2006 12:02 PM).]

iliana
Member Patricius
since 12-05-2003
Posts 13488
USA


40 posted 04-15-2006 06:08 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

lol.......news flash.....E-Coli loose in The Alley....quarantine promptly.  

Phil, thanks for your concerns.  Your concerns are valid and please don't take offense of those who just like to argue anything just to argue.  Happy Easter.  
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


41 posted 04-15-2006 08:01 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

hmmmm...again.. GR... you come to this point in a thread?  

discourse should be your aim -- dissention is a welcome sign -- don't shrink from a challenge -- why give your opposition the pleasure of shutting down your thread?

I think -- what's really interesting about e-coli in beef is that if we just took the cattle off the corn for the last week of their lives and fed them the grass they are genetically evolved to chew -- the e-coli threat goes away.

We always have to be careful of what we eat and the corporatizing of American farming is the culprit of many problems in our food and energy system.

The real culprit here is corn.  And fertilizer.  When we started making fertilizer out of natural gas and other hydrocarbon based fuels -- we opened the door to cheap corn - and eliminated the need for rotating crops.

So we grow tons and tons and tons and tons more corn than we can ever use -- so, we put it in everything -- and yep -- we feed it to the cows who used to be on the farm with the crops making fertilizer -- but we divided the crops from the cows and that's the problem...

we put more fossil fuels into growing our crops than we do into driving our cars -- and our cornfed livestock develop other problems because we aren't feeding them what their DNA wants to eat.

Alicat
Member Elite
since 05-23-99
Posts 4277
Coastal Texas


42 posted 04-15-2006 10:07 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Let's keep to a good discussion and leave off the personal attacks.  Yes, this is the Alley; however, it is important to understand and accept that not everyone will agree with any given topic.  As was said prior, dissent is important and crucial to any discussion, and long may it last.

Grinch has very valid points.  In the US, e.coli outbreaks that result in death from corporations and businesses are very rare, which makes for explosive media frenzies when they do occur: for their very rarity.  Most cases of not just e.coli but the ever popular botulism come not from corporate or commercial enterprises, but from improper canning procedures, improper storage, improper sanitation, and improper handling within the home.  Every so often you'll find a restaurant battling to preserve their reputation after a food handler or server comes to work sick with a tummy bug and prompty infects multiple patrons.  Happened in The Chili Pepper (local restaurant) in Yuma not too long back, and they are still trying to regain their reputation.  Granted they've redoubled their sanitation practices and mandated all personnel recertify their food handler licenses with instant termination for any who fail to comply.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


43 posted 04-15-2006 10:27 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Escherichia coli O157:H7 is an emerging cause of foodborne illness. An estimated 73,000 cases of infection and 61 deaths occur in the United States each year. Infection often leads to bloody diarrhea, and occasionally to kidney failure. Most illness has been associated with eating undercooked, contaminated ground beef. Person-to-person contact in families and child care centers is also an important mode of transmission. Infection can also occur after drinking raw milk and after swimming in or drinking sewage-contaminated water.

Consumers can prevent E. coli O157:H7 infection by thoroughly cooking ground beef, avoiding unpasteurized milk, and washing hands carefully.

Because the organism lives in the intestines of healthy cattle, preventive measures on cattle farms and during meat processing are beinginvestigated.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dbmd/diseaseinfo/escherichiacoli_g.htm




I don't know that I'd call 73k rare -- but I know 61 deaths is 61 too many.
I've seen this kind of thinking too much in the corporate world in the engineering process as people talk about 'acceptable' levels of non-quality -- even though my experience is in discrete manufacturing process and not food production -- I know that it's the same kind of thought process.

How many people is it accpetable to be electrocuted and burned to death by an electric blanket?

Mass production of food has had tremendous benefits for the US and the world -- but with that solution we've created more problems. Putting cattle on feed lots creates unsanitary conditions... grain feeding causes pH imbalances in their intestines which give e-coli bacteria the breeding ground they need -- being grass fed eliminates this problem -- and feeding cattle grass also eliminates the Mad Cow Disease problem too -- since we're not feeding them each other ground up into little pellets.  Grass -- not gas.

What we learned a long time ago is you can't inspect quality into a product -- you have to develop processes that produce it every time.
Alicat
Member Elite
since 05-23-99
Posts 4277
Coastal Texas


44 posted 04-15-2006 10:51 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Does that source break down where such infections and deaths not just occur but begin?  If the 73000 are the direct result of negligence on the part of commercial or corporate enterprises, then yes, nail them to the barndoor, and I'll be there with my hammer.  If, however, those 73000 started at home, where does personal responsibility come into play?  Last thing I would ever want to see is some beaurocratic lab technician rummaging in my pantry, fridge and cabinets mandating in triplicate the very things I would hope to have the common sense to know.  And if one showed up, funded by my taxes, I would need medical care to get my boot removed from their buttox.

As Grinch said though, that bill is primarily about food labeling standards across the board, since some states differ in what is required.  Here I was thinking the ordinances passed in the early-mid 90's was sufficient to stem the tide of all the dietary items claiming things which were not strictly true, like calling something 'sugar-free', meaning 'sucrose free', and using 3 or 4 other sweeteners, natural and artificial, as replacements.  Or low-fat and not being below the required percentage of fat per serving.

One thing I'd like to see changed is those pesky 'serving sizes'.  Bag of Oreos, serving size 3 cookies.  Who in blazes only eats 3 cookies aside from pathological control freaks?  Me, I snag a stack of about 7 or 10...I generally don't count but measure the stack by handfuls.  For cans of soda, some still call that 2 servings for a 12-oz can.  Ok, so how many people out there drink exactly 6 fluid ounces and places the rest in the fridge for another drink 6 hours later?

Least they could do with 'serving sizes' is at least pretend to be realistic.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


45 posted 04-15-2006 11:04 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

If it isn't in the meat to begin with Cat -- then it isn't a matter of how it's handled in the home.  Or the restaraunt (most commonly a corporation).  Or the swimming pool (possibly a corporation or a municipal facility).

You can't inspect quality in.  You have to build it in.  Is it too much to ask to have corporations give a cow a last meal of grass?
Alicat
Member Elite
since 05-23-99
Posts 4277
Coastal Texas


46 posted 04-15-2006 11:30 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

If it's in the meat to begin with, cooking it will denature e.coli's structure.  Not using a preparation surface for both lettuce and raw meat, although your article does give mention of raw unwashed lettuce being a carrier of e.coli.  Washing ones hands after handling of any type of raw meat, sanitizing the work surface, and not reusing the same utensils without giving them a good cleaning first.

Again I ask, where did those occurances happen?  This isn't me being dispassionate, I really want to know.  Where lies the responsibility?  Corporation, processing plant, fast food outlet, restaurant, individual?  If you are one who loves steak tare-tare and your burgers rare, surely you know the risks.  Me, I like my burgers well-done and my steaks medium rare.  Why the steaks and not burgers?  E.coli on meats lives on the outer surface.  For steaks, that's the outside surface which gets a healthy searing.  For any ground meat, there's a lot more surface area for e.coli to attach, which is why it needs to be more thoroughly cooked.

Despite what some think, e.coli is not unique to the post-industrial age.  That bugger has been around for millenia, and I dare say the morbidity and mortality rates associated with it have been drastically reduced compared to any other decade in our history.  Granted, I can't speak for other industrialized countries, or emerging or 'third-world' countries.  I'm afraid it will never be eliminated so long as amateur chefs in their own homes refuse to follow extremely simple common-sensical food handling procedures.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


47 posted 04-15-2006 11:39 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

When cows grew up eating grass Cat -- it wasn't a problem.  The bugger's been around -- but not in our food supply.  This problem began after WWII when we started making fertilizer from fossil fuels and corn took over the plantation.

When cows grew up eating grass -- they didn't spread Mad Cow Disease from eating feed that contained other cows ground up into pellets that had the disease.

Proper handling of food is always required -- but do you want to buy meat that has e-coli in it -- or e-coli free meat?  

Do you want Mad Cow in your meat or not?
Alicat
Member Elite
since 05-23-99
Posts 4277
Coastal Texas


48 posted 04-16-2006 12:02 AM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escherichia_coli_O157:H7

Good introductory reading material.
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


49 posted 04-16-2006 01:20 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze



I've gotta pig in da oven.

Goldenrose will be notified of replies
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> The Alley >> BE CAREFUL.... what you eat....   [ Page: 1  2  3  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors