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Passions in Poetry

Bush knew about Katrina

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Balladeer
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25 posted 03-04-2006 07:48 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Karen, don't think I don't understand and agree with your anger and frustration. You know I do.   Nor am I defending FEMA for their post-hurricane efforts...I DO blame them for much of it as I blame them for still not being in touch with Floridians who lost everything two years ago!

PEOPLE DIED

Yes, they died. They died because the hurricane hit them. For anyone whose blood is boiling at the fact Bush had been told the levees may be topped by flood waters, i have to say "..and?". Would he have been able to send Katrina somewhere else? Would he have been able to reinforce the levees before Katrina hit? Nope. Would he have been able to warn New Orleans that Katrina was very dangerous? Everybody drawing a breath knew that. What different could have been done to prevent the deaths? Well, Nagin could have used the hundreds of buses that sat there empty to save people. He should have done that anyway. Is it the administration's fault that he didn't? You could have put 8 people in your car? He could have put thousands on buses. The primary line of prevention and defense lies with the city - the second with the state. Why is it Bush that makes the blood boil? I am no fan of Bush's lackadaisical attude previous to the strike, believe me,  but I don't see what action could have been taken by him with this "startling" new evidence that could have averted the disaster that was to come.

If you want to talk post-hurricane, Serene One, I am with you all the way.
Balladeer
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26 posted 03-04-2006 07:55 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Now, whether or not something could have been done to stop the levy break, any sane person knows it could have been prevented...it was technically feasible!

Yes, Iliana, any sane person does know that. They know that it could have been prevented for the past 30 years. They also know that the corruption of the city government (which is one  of the worst there is) over that period of time by misappropriating and stealing the monies earmarked for strengthening the levees is why work wasn't done, not Bush's cuts 3 years ago. All of this was covered quite thoroughly in previous threads on Katrina....but I wouldn't expect that to change anyone's mind.

Or are you saying that the technical work could have been done in the two days before the hurricane hit? That would be an interesting theory.
JesusChristPose
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27 posted 03-04-2006 08:32 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Someone on this thread talked about utilizing logic, well, Mr. Balladeer is teaching Logic 101 as I write.

"If this grand panaorama before me is what you call God... then God is not dead."

Ron
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28 posted 03-04-2006 08:37 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Mike, if there was nothing the President could do why didn't he tell us precisely that in the wake of the disaster? Why did he, instead, tell us "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees" when interviewed by Diane Sawyer on September 1? That was four days after the hurricane and five days after the pre-storm briefing where both he and Chertoff heard an expert voice "grave concerns" over the reliability of those same levees.

Why doesn't the truth matter?

Balladeer
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29 posted 03-04-2006 09:19 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Yes, the truth matters, Ron, discounting Clinton's eight years in office, of course. If you are going to make politicians lying to the public a crime, as you mentioned, you had better build one hell of a large jail. I have never made the claim that Bush is the sharpest pencil in the barrel. He hires people and expects them to know what they are doing and do it. I feel he has shined in certain areas and failed miserably in others. Why did he say that? Of course, I have no idea. He could have either deliberately lied or just been confused and screwed up. If it was a deliberate lie, I have no idea what he was supposed to gain from it. Normally, when someone lies, they do it for some reason beneficial to them in some way. I see no way saying that was beneficial, one way or another. I can't answer your question.

Be that as it may, my question remains the same, which I haven't received an answer to. Armed with that information, what could he have done in those two days to prevent the destruction that was to come? What exactly is the importance of that info so shortly before the hurricane was to hit? I'd sincerely like to know. Nagin was the one who failed, or refused, to conduct needed evacuations. Should Bush have called Nagin and said "Evacuate your city now!!!" Nagin's excuse was that he couldn't get drivers for the buses from a workforce that "you can't even get to report for work on a sunny day". Would those drivers have magically appeared some way?

My point remains the same. Info or not, I see no way the destruction was going to be avoided and I see no reason for Bush to be villified on this point.
JesusChristPose
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30 posted 03-04-2006 10:10 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Some people have the ability to think with an objective and unbiased mind... or should I say, very few people can do that.

Well put, Balladeer. I am a fan of yours, indeed.

Balladeer
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31 posted 03-04-2006 10:47 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I thank you, sir.
Ron
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32 posted 03-04-2006 11:23 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I see no way saying that was beneficial, one way or another.

That's the point, Mike.

The only reason to lie, it seems to me, would be if Bush knew he could have done more with the knowledge he was given. Only then would he feel the need to excuse his lack of action by a pretended lack of knowledge. Certainly he knows his resources better than you or I, and if he was convinced he had done all that was possible given those resources he should have felt comfortable saying so.

Just as a fer instance? And only because you raised the issue?

I wonder if President Bush knows anyone capable of driving a bus?


Balladeer
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33 posted 03-04-2006 11:42 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LOL! Yes, I'm sure he does...and I'm sure Nagin did, too.   After all, he's counting on those workers who don't show up to rebuild the chocolate city. At any rate, Nagin should have used the buses, levee warning or not. A level 4 hurricane aimed at your nose is plenty reason enough!

No, we don't know all of the national resources but we are both reasonably wise individuals - you moreso than I - and I'm sure that you can come up with some ideas on how the admin could have done more based on this beforehand declaration, if there are any, not in a Monday morning scenario but going back to a pre-hurricane mode of thought.....not more things they could have done but more things they could have done because Bush was told the levees could be topped. In other words, what would Bush know he could have done with that information to make him want to lie about having it?  I'd be interested in hearing them...
Huan Yi
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34 posted 03-05-2006 12:40 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


In legal parlance isnít a hurricane
considered an act of God; yet He seems
to have never been on the hook.  Why
isnít anyone holding Him responsible?

Not A Poet
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35 posted 03-05-2006 11:38 AM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

Good point John!

The President and the entire national government certainly has faults. But, Mr. Bush also has many more responsibilities than supervising a local city government and ensuring that they perform their own responsibilities to their citizens. While you can't excuse any level of government for the shortcomings in New Orleans, the president's first responsibility is to protect the country. It is the resposibility of the mayor to look out for the welfare of his constituents. The failures there and over many years of pissing away the money that was supposed to have beefed up the levees is the real culprit here. Contribute about 90% of the culpability to New Orleans and Louisianna corruption in government. I have many relatives in the NO area and as much as I love the city and state, that's just how I see it.
Local Rebel
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36 posted 03-05-2006 03:50 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Mr. Bush left his ranch in Crawford to personally see to the welfare of one single U.S. citizen, Terri Schiavo.

He left his ranch in Crawford while Katrina was barrelling down on New Orleans to raise campaign funds.

Iraq, Katrina, Harriet Miers, Dubaigate, deficit spending, trade deficits, it's a pattern, and legacy, of incompetence.

Objective thinking is not signified by rallying around a politician or a party like it's a sports team.
serenity blaze
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37 posted 03-05-2006 03:55 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze



I'll be back.

Balladeer
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38 posted 03-05-2006 05:44 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Reb, I'll agree that he certainly could have looked more presidential but, other than that, I don't see your point. With Katrina barreling down on New Orleans what more could he have done to prevent the destruction that was to come? No one has answered that yet. Is your point that he didn't posture well? I'll agree.

As far as  your third line is concerned, I can create a similar string on Clinton - and add a few. In actuality, I don't think we have ever had a president where a non-supporter could not come up with the same type of statement. What your points have to do with Bush and the landfall of Katrina on New Orleans, I have no idea but I still find it strange that some have so much more anger at Bush than at either the hurricane, Nagin or Blanco. I attribute it to politics instead of unbiased thought.
serenity blaze
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39 posted 03-05-2006 06:26 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

What could he have done?

The thing that makes bile rise from my stomach, my fingers tremble as I type, and my blood boil with rage while I just cry, Mike, is that we will never know.

What we do know is that President Bush did nothing at all--oh wait, I forget. He assured state and local officials that all of the Federal governments resources were in place to assist the victims of this catastrophe.

If that was all the assistance at the disposal of our government, then we are in some serious trouble.

I'll give one example--a request for the obvious was denied Mayor Nagin. Rubber rafts.

Very simple, but very obvious, and very denied and very much on record.

The reason that request was denied was that rubber rafts do not have the capability to maneuver safely through debris in a storm flood type of situation.

Somebody oughtta tell that to people who put their babies in ice chests and pulled them to safety, sometimes swimming like horses crossing a river.

And yanno? I am so ridiculous.

It doesn't matter what I say.

Your minds are made up, and I am beginning to feel a twinge of condescension when I talk to people regarding what I feel are obvious facts about the negligence and the bumbling fumbling ineptitude of not just the Federal government, but YES, the ridiculous fence straddling of Governor Blanco as she tries not to burn Federal bridges, and Nagin's much publicized look of shock and indignation when he said he had been "misled" regarding the factual extent of how much previous knowledge the branch of government with the most power had at its disposal.

President Bush lied, on several occasions, and the only answer I can get regarding that is the old "President Clinton" war cry of indignation regarding his much overblown (can I say that? ) lie regarding his sexual escapeds.

President Bush lied to us before Katrina--he lied about a WAR issue.

So yes, do go ahead and bring up President Clinton, but keep in mind that President Clinton was impeached for what he did.

I'm waiting for some parity here.

Impeach ALL of the lying bastards. I think that would be fair.

So yes, just pat me on the head, and say, "poor Karen--she's obviously in the rage stage of post traumatic stress/nervous breakdown."

Disregard my words, because, after all, it's difficult for me to be objective being so close to the situation.

.

.

.

Everyone wondered at my silence after the storm, and when a friend of mine asked, I told him that I understood now why war veterans don't talk much when they come home from battle. I finally understand that there are some instances in life that will never be understood unless you were there. Funny tho, generally, in court, those who are eye witnesses are called to testify and I find my judgement being called into question because I am "too close to be objective."

And now there are people I need to thank, because, nodding, some saw that I needed help and stepped up and man of man, because of that help, I survived not one but TWO catastrophes.

Ya'll tend to forget about Rita.

And yanno? I will tell you all now what outraged me the most about this thread, and although it allowed me to vent some rage and those who should remain culpable for thier inactions, the thing that got me the most was the initial post.

I felt that Jaimie's comment regarding "How long?" was insufferable and comparable to complaining about how much noise someone makes as they die.

Jaime--for you I repeat, if our suffering and misery is too much for you to bear--then by all means, turn your attention elsewhere--winter is coming on in Pakistan and I understand there are children there who might need coats for the winter.

And

May I have the strength not to return to this thread.

I'm really not supposed to get upset. And typing that gave me the first laugh I have had in two days.

Poor Karen.

"How long?"

We'll figure that out when it's done.

"What could the government have done?"

We are never going to know, now are we? We can't roll tapes back and do it again and the dead are going to remain dead too.


Local Rebel
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40 posted 03-05-2006 06:37 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

The most important thing that we do know that the President could have done is what any competant manager does -- ask questions.

What do we do if the levies are topped?

How are we getting people out of there?

Are there enough resources?

What resources are available?

Who are the likely people to be left behind and what resources will they need?

How fast can we move additional resources into position?

What happens if another storm comes in right behind this one?

How do we rescue rescue workers?

How do we get power restored?

Who is taking care of -- fill in the blank..

Brownie -- do you have what you need to get this done?

Is there anything else we can be doing?

What kind of beuracratic logjams do I need to open up?

The difference between Bill and George is that when Bill was enmeshed in his own personal crisis -- America was content to let him run the country but didn't want to drink a beer with him.  America still thinks George would be a great guy to invite to Sunday potluck -- but 65% don't have confidence that he is competent to run a 7-11.

Balladeer
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41 posted 03-05-2006 06:48 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Excellent questions, Reb...the exact questions Nagin and Blanco should have been asking and acting upon.
Balladeer
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42 posted 03-05-2006 06:56 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Karen, after reading your last comment I am not going to take the chance that any more words of mine will upset you further so I will bow out. That is something I would never want to do and I offer my apologies to you if that has occured. I wish you the best...
Ron
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43 posted 03-05-2006 07:02 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
... what more could he have done to prevent the destruction that was to come?

I think that's the wrong question to ask, Mike, and it's almost certainly directed at the wrong people if you want fact instead of conjecture. No one expects a politician to avert a natural disaster, any more than we expect them to part the Red Sea. When they lie to us, though, we should ask them why they lied, and I think that leads to the inevitable question of what THEY think they could have done to help minimize the suffering if not the destruction.

If they have to make excuses, I'm going to assume something needs to be excused.

quote:
As far as  your third line is concerned, I can create a similar string on Clinton - and add a few.

So? Personally, I think Charles Manson was more dangerous than Jeffrey Dahmer, and I'm convinced Stephen King is a better writer than Dean Koontz. That doesn't mean I'm going to give Dahmer a free pass or King a Pulitzer Prize. Comparisons are irrelevant in such decisions.

quote:
... but I still find it strange that some have so much more anger at Bush than at either the hurricane, Nagin or Blanco. I attribute it to politics instead of unbiased thought.

Mike? I didn't vote for Nagin or Blanco. Nor will I be given the opportunity to NOT vote for them. Those guys are someone else's responsibility. George Bush is ours.


vlraynes
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44 posted 03-05-2006 07:15 PM       View Profile for vlraynes   Email vlraynes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit vlraynes's Home Page   View IP for vlraynes

Mike?... for the life of me, I can't understand your need to repeatedly drag Clinton into this... this is not ABOUT Clinton... it's about the current administration and it's gross incompetence...

It's about the fact that, as a result of that incompetence, TOO MANY PEOPLE DIED...

I don't know about you, but the 'he/she did it first' excuse just doesn't fly with me... I don't care of 100 presidents lied first... that does NOT make it right...

Could ALL of those lost have been saved?... likely not... could more have been saved than were?... I have no doubt in my mind that, indeed, they could have... I believe MANY more could have been saved... both before AND after Katrina and then Rita hit...

The 2 days that you keep referring to may not have been enough time to build a stronger levee system, but it was most certainly enough time to get more people OUT...

Unfortunately, our President is either too incompetent or just didn't care enough (or both) to make that happen...
Balladeer said:
My point remains the same. Info or not, I see no way the destruction was going to be avoided and I see no reason for Bush to be villified on this point.

Obviously, 'Deer, he could not have stopped Katrina from making landfall... nor could he have prevented the material destruction caused... but he most certainly COULD have done more to prevent the LOSS OF LIFE and to help those affected get back on their feet...

Also... I keep hearing mention of 'logical thinking'... and JCP even made mention of Mike teaching 'Logic 101'...  but in my opinion, there appears to be a MUCH greater need here for a class in 'Compassion 101'...

You can politicize this all you want... you can choose to apply 'logical thinking' to the situation... but at the end of the day, this is still about PEOPLE... people who deserve our understanding, our compassion and our support...
iliana
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45 posted 03-05-2006 07:17 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Yeah, Ron!  Yeah Vicky!  Yeah Reb!  And Karen, especially yeah you (if you see thisi)!

Personally, I'd be willing to chip in a little on a trip for Jaime and a couple of others down to the New Orleans' Ninth Ward so he/they can get a first hand look at "how long."!!!  Jaime, just in case you're interested, here's a little description of what you might see on your trip.   http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060304/OPINION01/60   3040312/1035/OPINION

It could be...that the reason more is not being done there is that this country is spending so much time and effort rebuilding the infrastructure of Iraq?  


[This message has been edited by iliana (03-05-2006 07:51 PM).]

Balladeer
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46 posted 03-05-2006 08:12 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The 2 days that you keep referring to may not have been enough time to build a stronger levee system, but it was most certainly enough time to get more people OUT...

Good grief! Yes, Vicky, it WAS enough time to get more people out so why didn't NAGIN do it????? He was the one to do it, along with Blanco. So why didn't they???

Unfortunately, our President is either too incompetent or just didn't care enough (or both) to make that happen...

You win. I give up....It was Bush's incompetence that didn't allow people to be evacuated...so be it.
serenity blaze
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47 posted 03-05-2006 09:05 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

That's right. I came back. But this time by request. I was told by a friend that I make points better via e mail than my posts in the forum. My friend asked that I post my reply to said friend's concerned letter, noting that this post, like many others, weren't about so much about me, or the storm, or even about culpability and responsibility. MY friend said that most of these threads were ultimately for one purpose only and that is to protect the Bush administration. So for my friend, here is the context of my reply:
I know.

I just have this inability to shut up.

But WHY do they want him protected?

Is there nothing the man can't do to lose respect?

(insert grin)?

The initial post of that thread offended me so deeply...

During one of my hospital stays, I woke one morning to find my roomate had requested another room.

Apparently my moaning and writhing in pain interrupted her sleep.

That's what that reminded me of, and I can't believe that this continues.

The last time politics upset me this much David Duke was campaigning for governor.

I lost friends over that, and I'm trying very hard here, to compartmentalize and not do that again. I really do have a lot on my plate--smile, there's someone living in my livingroom now. My mother in law. She lost everything.

I wish they could see, just once, how she looks at four a.m. when she wakes not knowing where she is, then her anger, even as I try to comfort her, I know that at that moment she hates my guts just because she is not "home"--and then her tears as she apologizes, it just breaks my heart and cements my rage.

Shame on all of them (insert grin).

I need to take a picture of her. She wants me to, too.

She got a big kick out of being on the "Intranet." when she was listed as a refugee. She will get a bigger kick out of seeing her pic online, so smile, yeah, I have to try to write something real nice for her.

Her name is Bettie and she is 78 years old, and even with a broken hip she can outrun ME.

So y'see? even through all my "whining"--I know I'm blessed.

She lived one block off of Lake Ponchartrain too and the government offered her 11 thou for her slab.

Smile.

She's decided to wait for one of those "asshole developers" to see if they buy out the neighborhood, to put a high rise "conderminimum" in its place.

She "ain't got nuttin' but time no how."



Thanks.

You're right.

Trying to talk to people about anything regarding Bush is like waiting for a man who beats you to "be sorry".

shaking my head

affectionately,

k

*  *  *

And btw? I have company right now--I"m cooking supper while we watch the Academy Awards. We don't know why we are watching, we haven't seen any new films for well over a year. But when they saw how angry I was from getting up from computer, they asked me what was up. So I told them. If you think I am angry you should have heard them. Especially my 78-year old mother-in-law. This little session also prompted my brother-in-law to go home and retrieve what was left of the flag that once waved proudly over the home he and my sister shared. Take a good look.
Image hosting by Photobucket


If you look very closely, you will see that Katrina blew some of the stars out of the flag...

And that is what frightens me the most.

*  *  *


And yes, this is about PEOPLE. So Mike? You are still my hero, and I feel a need to tell everyone that you were a first responder, too. Thank you for your help, and your heart, as we all take the time to consider what the hell has happened that politics has taken a front seat to the people of OUR United States. And OH. Smile. Bettie says "Hello, and thank you too."  


serenity blaze
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48 posted 03-05-2006 09:07 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Sorry for the size of the photo.

grin...kinda matches the size of the storm tho, eh?

oh well...

I tend to take up too much space.
Midnitesun
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49 posted 03-05-2006 09:09 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum94/HTML/001831.html
I am unable, or unwilling, to offer any other comments here beyond a link to what my heart and mind just wrote, as I FEEL too much of the pain contained within the realities of some who are a major part of this thread.
Jaime Fradera will be notified of replies
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