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LeeJ
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since 2003-06-19
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0 posted 2006-02-20 08:18 AM


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/11/AR2006021101112.html      

Lawmakers raise concerns over port deal
Arab company would be allowed to run six ports

Monday, February 20, 2006; Posted: 7:38 a.m. EST (12:38 GMT)

Edited because ...

"Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

                  *************

Quote: I don't know who said this but.....
‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men do nothing’

[This message has been edited by LeeJ (02-21-2006 07:27 AM).]

© Copyright 2006 Lee J. - All Rights Reserved
Christopher
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Purgatorial Incarceration
1 posted 2006-02-20 10:39 AM


From what I've heard reported, Lee, I wouldn't worry overmuch - the concern, while not wholly unwarranted, leaves out some vital information - such as the fact that security is still a separate function as is customs and immigration.
LeeJ
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since 2003-06-19
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2 posted 2006-02-20 11:18 AM


well, I had posted a copy of something my girlfriend cut and paste into an email for me, but someone deleted it...don't understand why...?  It was right out of CNN News?

Anyway, hope your right Christopher...I really do...

Not A Poet
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3 posted 2006-02-20 11:46 AM


It sure looks to me like a classic example of sending the fox to guard the chickens.

Grinch
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Whoville
4 posted 2006-02-20 01:55 PM



quote:
well, I had posted a copy of something my girlfriend cut and paste into an email for me, but someone deleted it...don't understand why...?  It was right out of CNN News?


quote:
Edited because ...

"Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

This message has been edited by Ron (02-20-2006 10:18 AM).


I’m only guessing but it could have been someone called Ron probably because the material you posted breached copyright law.


Essorant
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5 posted 2006-02-20 02:11 PM


How come it is alright to quote some copyrighted materials but not others?  

Mysteria
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6 posted 2006-02-20 02:22 PM


http://mason.gmu.edu/~montecin/copyright-internet.htm

Gets very confusing sometimes.  It is easier to just post a link to where the information is than to post all or part of it I think.

As for the ports, I agree with Christopher - too many channels for this to go through to worry about at least yet.

Local Rebel
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7 posted 2006-02-20 10:42 PM


quote:

It sure looks to me like a classic example of sending the fox to guard the chickens.



I don't know enough about this to make an intelligent arguement -- but -- just to be devils advocate I'll ask the question -- what if it's fighting fire with fire?

We know we have a deficit of Arabic speaking agents and very little understanding of the culture -- the US government used to hire Indians to track Indians too.

There is such a thing as 'fair use' -- but I'm sure Ron had a reason or he wouldn't have bothered... maybe if you posted the entire article?  Posting a few paragraphs and referencing the source is certainly fair use.

Ron
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8 posted 2006-02-20 11:32 PM


quote:
.. maybe if you posted the entire article?

From start to finish. INCLUDING the copyright notice that I bolded and left intact.


LeeJ
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Posts 13296

9 posted 2006-02-21 07:01 AM


Hi Mysteria & Ron...points well taken, thank you.  

Here is a link from Front Page CNN http://www.cnn.com/

I find it amazing that Fox News ignores this issue, not deeming it front page news?  And also heard Bill O'Reiley's comment this morning that he didn't deem this a serious threat to the US as far as security?

I don't patronize one news station, but bounce back and forth between them all, and stay with the issues I'm most interested in.

Presently, selling our ports to the Arab nation is a frightening issue to me, one that should be well thought out, presenting both sides of the coin.  

In my opinion, meaning, as I feel right now....what could we be thinking?  And if anyone would like to help change my mind, please do so.

1.  If the day ever comes, that our administration is no longer friendly with the Arabs, if there is a disagreement, what happens then?  Sanctions against America?

2.  How would this effect immigration?

3.  What about security risks...I heard on the news this morning...we only have enough money to perform checks on 1/3 of all the containers coming into America?

    a.  Think about the terrorists that could be smuggled in, not to mention, the bombs, dirty, nuclear or other wise.

4.  I don't believe Bush & Cheney are going to move on this and block this sale, b/c they are oil men, have been for years...and as my family says, they're in bed with the Arabs.

5.  Lastly...what if we do now block this sale?  This will present a hugh problem I'm afraid between the Arab nation and America, which could also spark one heck of a disagreement.  

    a.  Although, I suppose I'd feel better then if they'd own our ports.  

6.  I said this during both elections...Bush and his administration scares me.  Although, Kerry was no prize either...but, I do believe Bush will go down in history as the world's worst president.  Wait until the next election...and he's out, then, hoards of information will surface.  And that's just my feeble prediction...

I'm not posting this forum to advocate republicans against democrates...or visa versa...but I really really believe we need to think things through.  It's bad enough, we're becoming a weak nation, our technology our manufacturing...mostly comes from other countries.  We are a country who isn't liked very well by other nations...yet, we continually ignore our boarders.  We're becoming victims of a Trojan Horse so to speak...allowing anyone to come into this nation...outsourcing products & technolgy.

I'm asking you all, to think about the ramifications of this...lets not bash either side, lets discuse what could happen if, and look at both sides of the coin, as a united people.  

Can someone please help put my mind at ease?

Very sincerely
Lee J.


Ok, here we go, Fox News has just posted an article...when I first went in, there was nothing on this subject...now this...Thank you Fox News
http://www.foxnews.com/


Mysteria
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10 posted 2006-02-21 12:27 PM


I am watching Regis and Kelly from New York this morning and something really got to me.  Regis said, that these 6 ports are owned by the British!  Being a Canadian I had NO idea another country owned your ports, but I have to tell you that I would be darn concerned if these ports were sold to one of the very countries that harbored or was involved with any terrorists of 9-11.

As Ron said once, and I think it was Ron      

"A little information in the wrong hands is a dangerous thing." (or something like that)


I don't want to get into a little panic here for no reason.  I would hate to be all uptight or get anyone else all uptight, but does it really make sense to sell US ports where containers come and go, that could trasport weapons, or any means of warfare to a country not trusted such as Dubai?  A sad part too is that a country that is our friend today could sure be our enemy tomorrow.  As Kelly said this morning, "Gee, isn't there any American out there that owns anything American anymore? There has to be some Americans that can buy our ports?"  I sure hope that happens, you guys are our neighbours, I want you safe.      

Ron, when you have time "soon," I would be curious where you think this sale might be going?  This reminds me of a game Todd and I used to play when he was young and he always won my ports, and eventually the game as once you control the water and air you got the land.  Scary.

This report from CNN seems promising, whatca think?

CNN
LeeJ
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11 posted 2006-02-21 12:31 PM


yes, Mysteria, I am scared, and feel the same saddness as I did when 9/11 happened...
my oh my....

Mistletoe Angel
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12 posted 2006-02-21 04:52 PM


What I think here is simple. I believe Congress should force the Treasury Department to suspend their approval until the national security implications of this deal are fully investigated. An investigation of such a thing is required under federal law as it is.

I do know that the United Arab Emirates are one of three countries in the world that recognized the Taliban as the legitimate government of Afghanistan, it has been a key transfer point for illegal shipments of nuclear components to Iran, North Korea and Libya, money was transferred directly to the 9/11 hijackers through a banking system based there, and finally, frankly, after 9/11, the Treasury Department said that the UAE was not cooperating in efforts to track down Osama bin Laden's bank accounts.

I have to say by the looks of it, this is disastrous politically for this administration, and the Treasury Department got a whole lot of explaining to do.

For additional reading material, consider this:
http://www.chichakli.com/la_times_report.htm

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Mysteria
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13 posted 2006-02-21 09:31 PM


Well ... Mr. Bush said on our television news this evening at 6:00 p.m., that the ports will continue to be managed by the U.S. coast guard, and customs, and that the company selling them was cooperating with the US (whatever that may mean.)  He said, if the sale would jeopardize US security, of course they won't be sold.  We will see what happens, and hopefully this is the truth.  He tests me, he truly does.  Then what the heck is CNN posting as of 9:56 p.m. EST tonight?  Sheesh, and men have the nerve to say women change their minds.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/02/21/port.security/index.html

[This message has been edited by Mysteria (02-21-2006 10:44 PM).]

Mistletoe Angel
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14 posted 2006-02-22 01:21 AM


Look, there's another point I want to make here, in response to some proponents of the sale criticizing those opposed to it of encouraging "bigotry" on Arabs.

I believe (and many would agree with this too) that when to comes to owning/co-owning shares of Daimler-Chrysler and other kinds of stock in particular, that's absolutely fine with me. But when it comes to taking ownership or partial-ownership of national security strongpoints, no foreign company should ever be owning them; American companies ought to be owning and operating them at all costs. Whether it's the United Arab Emirates, Venezuela, Britain or Madagascar, no foreign government or company should have the keys to our national security outlets. It isn't "bigotry", it's only common sense.

The New Jersey port alone has about 185,000 jobs and encourages $25 billion worth in economic activity. If anything ever happened at any one of these ports individually, our economy would be heavily affected. We also rely on these ports to offer services to our young men and women in uniform, and if we find ourselves in increasing conflict with that particular nation in the future and they still have influence over the ports, they could stall those services from being sent out. I don't believe a majority of Americans want to take this risk.

The 9/11 Commission Report concluded itself that our nation's ports are among the most vulnerable sites of our nation security-wise. Domestic companies, our government and ONLY our companies and government ought to be owning and operating them.
I'm all for other forms of diplomacy with Dubai, but this isn't the way.

*

*

One thing I'm interested in knowing is this.

As we are all aware, Bush hasn't vetoed ANYTHING since he's been in office. He threatened to veto a stem cell research bill recently, but went quiet after Frist endorsed additional funding.

Why is Bush apparently so adamant about vetoing any Congressional effort to deny the right of the UAE to take over port security here in the U.S? Especially a country known for connections to the 9/11 hijackers, and a company even endorsing the destruction of Israel.

He should know he doesn't have the votes nor the public support here. Why is Bush so adamant on seeing this deal is approved, to the point of threatening his first-ever veto?

I figured he learned from that Harriet Miers episode...guess not. This time around, his credibility is really in danger among his core conservative base, and I believe he is dead wrong on this issue, Jimmy Carter's dead wrong on this issue, Bill O'Reilly's dead wrong here, but all in all I'm glad to see bi-lateral understanding of the risks here.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Midnitesun
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Gaia
15 posted 2006-02-22 02:15 AM


my comment?
buckle your seatbelts

LeeJ
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16 posted 2006-02-22 06:53 AM


The Bush family have been oil giants for years...and good friends, very good friends with a very powerful family in Saudi Arabia.  This was a blatant attempt to bring in under the radar...if I didn't know this, I'd probably believe that Bush knew nothing about this sale.  Also, I admire Lou Dabbs for bringing this out in the open...he's now being threatened by the Saudi Embassy telling him to "shut up" and those were their words.  

Thank God for him bringing this out in the open.  I don't know how true it is, but have been told the Bush family owns large amounts of stock in Channels 3, 6, and 10...and none of those channels were reporting this until it became big news...first reported by Lou Dabbs.

And oh, by the way, there were more terrorists involved in 9/11 who were from Saudi, then 2.  

All this information, will come out, after the Bush administration is out of office.  I say again, in all seriousness, our plight cannot be about the parties...we have to stop backing people who are corrupt simply because we voted for them and are afraid to say...man, I made a mistake.  Both sides are corrupt, there is no doubt about it...but, it's up to us...to shake them up so that they become more concerned about us, then they do their pockets.  

We can debate until the cows come home, but it's not going make American soil a better nation.  We are becoming a weak nation...if you look back through history, when did every great nation fall...when they became immoral and corrupt.  We're moving there fast...

Bush is also very good friends with the Mexican President.  That is why nothing has been done about immigration.  And as much as we should be concerned about other nations taking our ports, we should also start concerning ourselves with legal immigration.  

The Bush family, are very influencial rich people.

This entire situaiton, I'm afraid, will cause severe ramifications, whether the Saudi's purchase goes through or not.  Their embassy is already screaming "this is blatently prejidice on the part of America"  Will they retaliate? I think they will.  The Bush family has really gone and done it this time.  They wine and dine a very powerful Saudi family.  

Well, there are good Arabs and Bad Arabs...just like in any culture...and it's time we stop being so sensitive about this issue, and take care of this country.  I'm not prejidice...but...if you want to come to America and live, it should be deemed a priviledge and no one should be here illegally.  

We have opened a can of worms that I fear has and will continue to put us in danger of a complete take over of this country.  

Challenge me now, call me rediculous...but I guarentee you, if we don't change things, these things will come to pass.  We've got to get hard and say no...we've got to bring back manufacturing in this country.  

There is a secret agencay called and forgive me if I get this wrong...who are in charge of screening any foreign nations who purchase property & businesses in America.  They only turned down 1 country thus far...and there have been thousands both properties and businesses sold to other countries, including China.

I'm not here to bash parties or to argue views...I'm posting this, b/c I am realistically afraid.  

We were discussing this issue yesterday at work...one gal walked in on the conversation...and said, after listening to us...geeze, you guys ought to talk about something more positive.  She's young and doesn't understand...my point is...perhaps this is an uncomfortable subject, but it's reality, it's happening.  People believe when they go to the polls and vote, they've done their job.  We believe b/c we voted for a certain party, we've got to defend them when they do wrong...b/c if we don't, then we'd be admitting we were wrong...and human beings don't like to admit they are wrong.  Point being...we've got to insist that our government stop being bought by lobyists and start doing their jobs.  

I said it before, and I'll take it to my grave...Bush and his administration scare me...and when all is said and done, after the next election, all the books and information will start surfacing, and Bush will go down in history as the worst President of the United States.  

I think, we should get ready for the next election by insisting, "we don't only want to hear, you have a plan, we want a full scope presentation of the plan (s) you have in mind, to staighten out this mess.  It can no longer be about party, we've got to come together as citizens of the US and demand change.  Otherwise, by the division of this country right now...I'm afraid we're eventually in for big troubles, nothing of the likes we've ever imagined or thought we'd see.

Personally, I'm going to write Lou Dabbs and thank him for being courageous in bringing this story to the publics attention, cuz if he hadn't, none of us would be talking about this right now and the sale most likely would have gone under the rador like so many others.  

It is our duty to come together, and get involved, not defend them, but honestly figure out, what is right and wrong...stop being so liberal with the rights of others who come to this country illegally.  You guys have no idea what is going on, unless you live in southern states, where they're coming across the border.  This is going to be very dangerous for us, and for our pocket books, not to mention, it's an easy take over for future generations.

We've deteriorated as a nation...our agencies are a joke...we are out of money...we have farmed out the manufacturing of our products to other countries...our properties, our businesses, and I haven't even touched base on our banking systems.  

We're in trouble, and I hope more then anything, we learn from this, and come together as a country, instead of being divided by left and right wings.  Otherwise, they've got us right where they want us.

Take for instance that shooting incident with Cheney.  It was an accident, and as much as I don't like the guy, but, I feel badly for him,  b/c he shot his partner by accident.  But, the episode was blown way out of porportion by those who hate the Bush administration.  Yes, there are accidents like these, sadly, unfortunately they happen. But it was in my opinion, foolish of the American public to mock this incident...as I believe in my heart, Cheney was really scared, upset and sorry. Who wouldn't be?  I think sometime, we laugh at things we should deem immorral and corrupt and other things are not laughing matters...myself included...it's perhaps the way we cope?  I dunno?  But this verbal war going on between the Right and Left wings...I think, they've got us right where they want us?  

Maybe it's me, perhaps I'm full of it?  Just seems more logical to me.  Blame it on my upbringing...

Another point I'm going to stress...if Hillary runs for President, sit back and watch how many woman vote for her, simply b/c she's a woman.  This is the non-intellectual concept I'm talking about.  We don't ask questions...we vote and think we've done a good job????  Its up to us, to get together and demand they do a better job, right along with us...we pay their salaries...yanno?  

And by the way, is anyone interested in really knowing what is going on down south in the after math of Katrina.  It's an embarrasement to the U.S.

I know I should have taken some of this information into other subject forums...but I couldn't help it, or stop myself from venting.  

This stuff really, really gets me down, and I apologize to anyone if I've offended anyone...I just cannot see the logic in defending a party when one party is as bad as the other????

We need more Parties...we really do.

  


icebox
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17 posted 2006-02-22 09:38 AM


When I was young, I worked at the docks in the largest port in the US.

To go back to your original question about the ports, organized crime has run the ports in this country for more than a century.  They are not giving up anything!

Beyond that, the US Customs agency and the US Coast Guard are responsible for port security.


LeeJ
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since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296

18 posted 2006-02-22 09:59 AM


yes, tis true what you say, but indeed, it will definately give the wolves more to gravite their mission, they roam in packs...

Let me ask this question...would any other country allow us to do the same?  This is an unwise choice what we've been getting ourselves into...we are weak minded and way to concerned about what others think, I think... and have lost a natural ability to comprehend the effects of our decissions
longterm...we've become a society of instant gratifications, not even beginning to realize the ramifications of long-term effects?

Oddly, on the way to work this morning I noticed two bumper stickers...on the same truck..one said...I hate liberals...the other said...Bush, Cheney...?????  Why would anyone lower themselves to express such mid-evil hatred?  If we're not open minded, then how can we access?  And I'm not siding with any one party here...believe me...I consider myself somewhat conservative, sitting on a fence, watching all of this pass me by.
My choice.

Mysteria
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19 posted 2006-02-22 12:54 PM


quote:
And I'm not siding with any one party here...believe me...I consider myself somewhat conservative, sitting on a fence, watching all of this pass me by.
My choice.
But why?  I am being serious here, what stops people there from starting a resisting party?  If you don't like what your options are why isn't anyone creating a new party?  I probably sound really dumb, but here in Canada we do that.  We have many parties to vote for, ultimately it boils down to Liberal, Conservative, or Democrats yes, but there are others, Green Peace, Rhino, etc. that at least get their forum heard.

I am now relaxing some after hearing that "organized crime" runs some docks, go figure that out?  

Your Katrina comment:  I could not agree with you more, the rest of the country seems to be moving on when parishs there are still in a state that is absolutely disgusting.  Before you ask, yes I am doing what I personally can to help, but I wonder why the government and every person on this planet isn't doing a fair share, or are forced to?  I just don't get this!  Good ole Oprah the other day put it out there like it is, and I think it is just shameful that the government is not looking after this and the people of America before anything else,  but then I only have the local media to go on.  It is very, very sad.  

I have been told by people that live there you have to be extremely careful who you donate your money too as well, as of course there are crooks even taking advantage of a disaster to bilk us out of our cash.  I hope those that do donate check out the recpient well.  I have to tell you this totally is disgusting to me that people are forced to live in that filth, and hear the excuses they are getting.  There are empty trailers for those people now thrown  out of hotels, and I wrote to get an answer why they are sitting unoccupied!  Hope each of you will too.

Sorry to use this thread for venting this, but you did mention it.     

LeeJ
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since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296

20 posted 2006-02-22 12:58 PM


Hi Sharon,
Hmmm, what an idea, how does one start a party?

If you say, send out invitations, order in some food, bake a cake, keg of beer, etc...I'll laugh my you know what off
seriously, how would one do that?





Mysteria
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21 posted 2006-02-22 01:03 PM


Like they did Lee, go find some heavies that are fed up to get a lot of financial backers, make leaflets, get a space donated from a local vendor for an office, go door to door, find lackies to spread the word, and be seen.  Invite people to an orientation, yes.         Marketing, plain old-fashioned marketing.  I see you have at least one other option - Green Peace Party for one, and don't vote for those you think will do a rotten job.  Seems easy to me, but I am sure it is not.

You don't know me but you are darn right, if I was fed up, nothing would stop me. I would bake goodies, have a tea, auctions, and make sure no one left without being convinced they were responsible for writing their own demise, and it is up to them to change it. Seriously!

I will now go   

Forgive me for I know not what I speak I guess.  Normally I tend to do something rather than say something, but then that has always worked for me.  Being not exactly a brain surgeon I am a way better "do-er than talker" I guess?

LeeJ
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Posts 13296

22 posted 2006-02-22 01:23 PM


boy, you make it sound so easy.  I have a friend whose ancestors live in Germany, they have several partys and he says it really works well...it actually forces the other candidates to take their jobs more seriously, more honestly and work for the people.  

Sometimes I think both parties send up smoke screens and deterrants, to keep us preoccuipied while they scratch the backs of lobbyists...

If only we could take the bribes away from the lobbyists

Years ago, it used to be illegal to do that.  Not that anyone paid attention.

Thank you for your input...


Midnitesun
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23 posted 2006-02-22 01:42 PM


"Sometimes I think both parties send up smoke screens and deterrants, to keep us preoccuipied while they scratch the backs of lobbyists..."
change that to
ALWAYS and I'll agree with you. Many in this country have tried to move a third and fourth party in the mainstream, but its been resisted by the majority of voters, perhaps thinking its safer to 'stay the course' which of course, is NOT my way of thinking. I would love to see the majority of both elephants and donkeys get their fat butts kicked out of office during my lifetime. One way is to stay registered independent, and truly vote independent of the hype and lobbying. But it's not easy to do, especially if you view the race as CLOSE but prefer one bad egg over the other. . (Ron might suggest this is a cop-out ) but notice I said IT'S NOT EASY to do, but yes, you can and should vote entirely independent if you don't go along with the person or the party line)
OK, so I strayed off subject a bit.
I have to agree with icebox on one comment, that the ones who really control the docks seem never to have  been the 'legal' owners.

LeeJ
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since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296

24 posted 2006-02-22 01:47 PM


Hi M...yanno, people fear change so badly...or are afraid of literally being disloyal to their families (hey that rhymes which wasn't intended) And ever worse, people are sorely afraid to listen...so your right, they go about business in their same old way, I guess waiting for revelations to come true.  This is a very astute quote...

"the easiest way for evil to prevail is for good men to sit and do nothing"

so so true...so true...thanks so much for your interaction...

Mistletoe Angel
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25 posted 2006-02-22 02:07 PM


I too am going to throw a bubble tea party the election year a third party bursts to life and generates a catalyst in our political climate not rigidly bent on our two major parties.

I voted for Greens all the way down the ballot below the level of presidency, including Teresa Keane for the U.S Senate. I wish voting for David Cobb for President in 2004 was sufficient, as I definitely wanted to vote for him instead of John Kerry, but my purpose in voting for the first time in 2004 was to demand change from the first four years of this administration, and, sadly, Cobb didn't have a snowball's chance on the grill.

If only either one of our parties would have the courage to call for fusion balloting, that would be a huge start in the right direction.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

LeeJ
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26 posted 2006-02-22 02:52 PM


Hi Noah, thanks so much for your input...

The way it's going is not working, it's only dividing the country causing hate and extremests...one against the other...the next President is certainly going to have their hands full...if they decide to work for the people?


Mysteria
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27 posted 2006-02-22 03:18 PM


It only makes sense to me if you don't like who there is to vote for, don't vote for them or the party they represent, pick the least likely to get in, so as to keep the power mongers out and increase the popularity of the underdog, no?  Remember those popularity contests in school to be class validictorian?  I sure do, and carry those race tactics with me eveyr election day.

I was thinking this morning I don't know enough about politics to get into this with you folks, and shouldn't really voice an opinion.  However, I strangely do know more about American politics than my own as most of my friends are Americans.  The simple reason for my interest is that you are a more powerful, and influential country.  To be honest, you guys scare the bejillies out of me down there, so I feel I have to know what you are up to as you are too close for comfort sometimes.     I will say this, and I am not alone up here in Canada, Bush scares me to death, and I mean that!  I did study the Civil War, and I actually see folks starting to fight amongst themselves now down there, and that is really sad and very scary.  What I admired most about the USA, (pre-Bush,) was the security I felt as a neighbour, and the sense pride felt by the citizens in America that I don't feel now.  With that having been said, I won't say another word, I promise, (in this thread anyway.) I wish someone could convince me I am dead wrong.


LeeJ
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28 posted 2006-02-22 03:31 PM


Hey Sharon, I know what you mean, he scared me to death from the very beginning...for many reason, of which I won't go into...but Kerry was no pick either.  Another really frightening thing is our agencies, that have been depleted or are being deleted.  For instance, immigration, security, femma....it seems no one knows their job...and I'm still raging mad about the shape New Orleans and the other areas that were hit bad, are in...it's inhumane, the way these people have been living.  There are 100's of femma trailors sitting there, that were never distributed, just sitting there empty...there is a 60 year old woman, going to the bathroom in a bucket...still?????
The conditions are still deplorable, and no one is doing anything about it.  Its like everyone is pretending the problem still exists?  Its sad...sad what our country has come to, and those agencies like the Red Cross, etc. you'd think they'd get their act together...no one seems to know what to do.

I'm not talking out of my hat...as there are some news reports trying to bring attention back to the issue, to let American know what is NOT going on down there.  

Very very sad.  

Mistletoe Angel
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29 posted 2006-02-23 02:05 PM


Blame it on political cronyism.

Cronyism seems to be quintessential to any form of politics, but it has especially heightened as of recently in that domestic health programs and programs designed to protect our borders and respond to natural disasters are being ran by corporate lobbyists with little professional experience to the fields in which they're hired to begin with. Many recent administrations do it for the money more than the interests of the public.

This Dubai deal strikes me as being all about the money too. The administration has made a colossal political mistake here because a number of Bush supporters that almost seemed to deify Bush ever since 9/11 to this day largely thought it didn't matter whether Iraq helped or harmed national security, whether the domestic spying program assisted or hindered surveillance of suspected terrorists, whether the Patriot Act helps get new leads against terror suspects; they thought it was appropriate because he's trying his best to do what he thinks is right, in their view, and if they agree with him on other issues, they'll be willing to forgive whatever mistakes have been made in his quest to protect the country, because he seems to care that much.

Now many of his core supporters see this Portgate controversy and are thinking, "Hey, I thought he said in a post-911 world, you can never be too careful, what happened?". Many are also thinking, "What happened to the 'whatever it takes to defend the American people' notion?" Even beyond that, I feel many of his core conservatives will finally look back on Iraq, the Patriot Act, NSA, etc. and think that all a sudden his credibility on all those issues has eroded, because of this double standard he has taken in that he has not lived up to his notion banner he's carried since 9/11 on the port deal.

I'll go ahead and tell you this. Anyone from EITHER political party here who is running for re-election this November in a competitive top-tier race and DEFENDS this deal is likely going to lose.

Lieberman probably has made the defining boo-boo that will transform the Connecticut Democratic Senate primary into a real race with challenger Ned Lamont. In the coming days, I expect his approval rating will significantly slip from both parties and independents, and though Lamont still has an uphill battle facing him, he probably has gained a legitimate shot at replacing Lieberman.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Alicat
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30 posted 2006-02-23 04:17 PM


And then there's the Bush haters in power who tried to weaken or dismantle the Patriot Act, Homeland Security, NSA activities who are all of a sudden 'tough on terror'.  Senator Clinton is going off about no foreign ownership of American ports, but where was her anger when Britain controlled those ports?  Richard Reid is British...you know him, the shoe-box bomber.  British citizens participated in the London bombings.  British mosques handled the funding.  Where was her concern or anger about British ownership of American ports?  Or Boxer's? Pelosi?  Rangle?  Kennedy?  Kerry?  Any Democratic Senator or Representative?

But the US can't discriminate because the UAE are Arabic.  Can't do racial profiling.  Can't do wiretapping.  Can't do surveillance.  Can't monitor books or online content any worker from the UAE company checks out or reads.  If the Progressives are so die-hard about according all American rights to enemy combatants and illegal immigrants, they have to be granted all employees of the UAE controlled ports, just like they were to the employees of the British ports.

Am I for this buyout?  Nope, but not against it either.  I do have some questions, but those will only be answered in time.  Besides, noone seems to care about that same British company owning property and construction enterprises in Colorado, New Mexico and Arizona.

Mistletoe Angel
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31 posted 2006-02-23 11:54 PM


I think it's ridiculous for any foreign company to own our seaports, airports, military services or anything connected to our national security infrastructure. I certainly would disagree with the British deal and any preceding foreign deal.

From the first day I learned about the Patriot Act, I've said I would support it once the sections that affect civil liberties are re-written as to not limit or infringe upon them. From the first day I learned about the NSA spying controversy, I said there is a perfectly legal way of eavesdropping terrorists, but opposed and still ardently oppose the way this administration chose to conduct it by running around the law and not either allowing Congress to agree to change the FISA requirements or obtain a warrant 72 hours in advance of the wiretap. And I've recognized long before September 11th that having a strong, effective national security system is a requirement, and my opposition to the war in Iraq, mistreatment of detainees abroad and other such things are all rooted in my firm belief these things threaten our national security and our image internationally.

It's not fair that you're solely pointing fingers at Democrats in that they were passive on the British deal. I don't recall either party making a peep on that deal, no Kerry's, Kennedy's and Boxer's, and no Frist's and Hastert's and Burns's. Americans should own American security sites, just as I imagine it is wise and only common sense for Britians to own British security sites, and so on.

Both parties have perfectly legitimate reasons for opposing this deal. The Democrats have been calling for increased security of our nations ports strongly within the past decade, and the 9/11 Commission Report confirms that our ports are among the most vulnerable areas in our nation security-wise. And when the investigation to the national security implications to this deal wasn't even complete, how can you really trust the company anyway if you are not among those who believe only American companies should run American ports?

The Republicans oppose this deal also because they are looked at more trusting and stronger on the war on terror than the Democrats are, and they're not about to damage their credibility and compromise their conservative notions just because the president wants to make a business arrangement, especially ahead of the mid-term elections.

Bush supporters that almost seemed to deify Bush ever since 9/11 to this day largely thought it didn't matter whether Iraq helped or harmed national security, whether the domestic spying program assisted or hindered surveillance of suspected terrorists, whether the Patriot Act helps get new leads against terror suspects; they thought it was appropriate because he's trying his best to do what he thinks is right, in their view, and if they agree with him on other issues, they'll be willing to forgive whatever mistakes have been made in his quest to protect the country, because he seems to care that much.

Now many of his core supporters see this Portgate controversy and are thinking, "Hey, I thought he said in a post-911 world, you can never be too careful, what happened?". Many are also thinking, "What happened to the 'whatever it takes to defend the American people' notion?" Even beyond that, I feel many of his core conservatives will finally look back on Iraq, the Patriot Act, NSA, etc. and think that all a sudden his credibility on all those issues has eroded, because of this double standard he has taken.

THAT'S why the Republicans are opposed to this deal, and they are wise to be doing so.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Goldenrose
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32 posted 2006-02-26 06:26 PM


From my very limited knowledge of this subject i wouldnt worry too much about this issue. The company involved in the arab deal is a british company named P&O they are about to be taken over by a United Arab Emerates company. Now the emerates is not recognised as a rogue state, quite the opposite. UAE is run by the ruling family of the Maktoums who have lots of business deals in the US already through their love of thoroughbred racehorses. They have had business dealings with america for over 20 years now and no body has ever said a thing about their business dealings until they buy into a shipping firm. Sheik Mohammed al Maktoum of the UAE is the defence secretary of his country, educated in England and able to fly jets including fighter jets, he regularly flies to Kentucky for the thoroughbred sales and would be shooting himself in the foot by allowing ANY impropriety to happen to american ports, this man is an honourable man who employs lots of workers on his stud farms in England, Ireland and America, no person involed with any UAE country would harm american ports or be involved with terrorism.
As an act of goodwill the UAE firm involved has agreed to delay things until it has been discussed properly, most of the UAE arms will have been purchased fron american defense firms..

There is nothing to worry about here...if these UAE citizens ever wanted to attack america in any way they could have done so years ago, safe as houses..

Hope everybody has a great week and may God bless everyone at PIP..

Goldenrose.

Desire for nothing except desirelessness,hope for nothing except to rise above all hopes, want nothing and you will have everything.avatar Meher Baba.

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33 posted 2006-02-26 07:51 PM


It's not fair that you're solely pointing fingers at Democrats in that they were passive on the British deal. I don't recall either party making a peep on that deal, no Kerry's, Kennedy's and Boxer's, and no Frist's and Hastert's and Burns's.

I think that is Alicat's point, Noah. Now the Kennedys, Boxers, Kerrys and Clintons ARE screaming about foreign ownership...where were they on the British ownership? Did slick Willie have a problem with that?

Did you even know that the British own them at this point? I confess I didn't. Why? I don't recall the press or congress making it any big deal...now all of a sudden they go bonkers. Is it over foreign ownership, is it over Arab profiling, or is it over Bush (yet again)?

LeeJ
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34 posted 2006-02-27 07:40 AM


this is exactly my point...we are constantly fueding...with opinions directed at the other party and party members...we are contaminated by this divide and will continue to be as such until we understand a bigger picture...and expanded states of awareness...we constantly feel the need to defend corruptness...basically b/c as humans, we hate to be told we're wrong, so we argue a point, kicking the dog until it's dead and still keep kicking it.

These problems which are occuring have been created.  We are supposed to be caretakers...but we've become a lazy nation of money mongers...fighting amoungst our selves over political rights...opinions, etc.  

The US was once a powerful nation, in military, manufacturing, technology, etc.

We are not only selling our ports here...we are selling off our rights...and everything our forefathers lost their lives over...

I had no problem with a British Based Country owning our ports...but to sell our ports to the Saudi's in my opinion, is digging our own graves.  The Saudi's may seem friendly now.  As in every culture, there are good and bad people, just like here in the US, but what happens if someday, that good faith is violated.  We are not only dealing with a country that is tied to terrorist connections...money, etc...but, a primitive culture...one of which will take years and years to change. (not that I think we should change it) (and I think we're finally starting to realize that by our prensence in Iraq)  

You cannot change a culture in months, it takes years of evelution...and if the Saudi's become irritated by something we do...remember, we have outsourced most of our manufacturing to other countries...it would be a darn good way to cut off the US from receiving those containers of products we have now become dependent on.

We're giving everything away in this country, b/c we are soft bleeding hearts....and it will one day, result in our own demise...b/c we are to fat and lazy, we want to be paid for little work, and we don't want to get our hands dirty.  If we dont' totally destroy ourselves, we will once again, learn, someday, that it's not about money....

We can't as a culture stick together fight for our rights...our governments world wide have become so corrupt...the democrates and republicans are both corrupt...we don't live in a deeper level of reality...and understand the larger picture, looking down the road to expand awareness...instead, we've become a nation of quick fixes...instant gratification...and we're broke...I mean really broke.  

Wait until after the next election...

Golden Rose, there is more here then what meets the eye, and I am scared...we're selling the soul of our country...and it's been going on for a long long time. We want to believe that everyone is good, and everyone in the world is looking for a better way of life, so we open up our boarders to them, we're freakin bleeding hearts...and it will one day come to be, that the US will no longer be ours...they want our land, our enterprises, and they've been working for years to do so...and we;re buying it, cuz we're broke....
Our military is weak, federal funding of agencies are almost just as bad as the people running them...
we will come to a point of no return...and we're off in so many other countries...instead of making our own country safe, and secure, not to mention, our futures...financial and otherwise.

I just somehow feel deep inside, this is a bad move, and it's a strong feeling...I can remember years ago, the controversy over selling our ports to the British...same thing happened...people were appalled...but this is different...this is a terrorist based country.  Does anyone realize, the Bin Lauden family is from there, very rich...and good friends with our commander in chief.  Its been known for years, that the Bush family has been in bed with the Arabs...they are both very wealthy oil people.  So, on this one, I do not believe our own president didn't know about this.  Especially after he said, I will veto any bill that denies this sale?

Our own security has admitted that we only have enough funds and human power to check only 5% of these containers...

[This message has been edited by LeeJ (02-27-2006 11:27 AM).]

Juju
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35 posted 2006-02-27 09:33 AM


I agreee with Lee,  selling or ports to other countries is a very bad idea.  Even if we still have our security,  the moment we start leasing our country really the less we own of it.  its called the monopoly effect.  when I would play monopoly with my mom, when ever I was about to go negative my  mother would ask for "free stayss" and I believe those free stays are what hurt the most.  I see this more as a financhal mistake then a security at the moment, but still it is money and money, unfortunitly makes the world go round. once the oil goes dry, so will there money. lets keep it that way...

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Alicat
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36 posted 2006-02-27 04:16 PM


Goldenrose, this may be the first time I agree with you.     You do raise some very valid points, many of which I heard later on Rush Limbaugh.  Now, I don't listen to yack radio, but my mom sure does...every waking hour of every single day.  Even carries battery operated radios around while walking through the house, but I digress.

Call me a whacko neocon conspiracy theorist if you want, but I think the driving force behind the political outrage on both sides of the aisle stems from labor unions and similar political action committees and lobbyists.  I'm sure the dockworker unions had no problem at all with British ownership and management of US ports, since Britain has a long history of being pro-labor.  I don't think the same can be said of the UAE.  Quite the opposite, in fact.  So those dockworker unions really don't want UAE ownership or management, since if they go on strike and walk off the job they might very well find themselves without a job.  Yanno, just like anyone else would who walked off a job.  And so they flex their significant political muscle to get their bought Senators and Representatives to block this transaction under the guise of National Security.

If those against it are so concerned with National Security, then they might as well remove UAE ownership and management of construction firms and hotel/resort chains in the US.  And then kick out Canada, Britain, Ireland, every country in the Arabian Penisula, Germany, France, Mexico, China, and then Texas, Illinois, and New York.  All those places had businesses/charities funding terrorists, had terrorists, have terrorists, and I know I missed a few locations.  Let's just lock down the country, impose economic martial law, and enjoy the fruits of isolationistic behavior.

Juju
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37 posted 2006-02-27 07:20 PM


well,  I sopose you bring up a good point, I just in general don't like that they seel ports and stuff, but if it isn't saidi arabia and the state you said it is completly different story.
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38 posted 2006-02-27 08:05 PM


they are oil men, have been for years...and as my family says, they're in bed with the Arabs.

we're becoming a weak nation, our technology our manufacturing...mostly comes from other countries.

The Bush family has really gone and done it this time.  They wine and dine a very powerful Saudi family.  

Bush is also very good friends with the Mexican President.  That is why nothing has been done about immigration.

The Bush family have been oil giants for years...and good friends, very good friends with a very powerful family in Saudi Arabia.  This was a blatant attempt to bring in under the radar..

the Bush family owns large amounts of stock in Channels 3, 6, and 10...and none of those channels were reporting this until it became big news...first reported by Lou Dabbs.

We have opened a can of worms that I fear has and will continue to put us in danger of a complete take over of this country.
  
Bush and his administration scare me...and when all is said and done, after the next election, all the books and information will start surfacing, and Bush will go down in history as the worst President of the United States.

Does anyone realize, the Bin Lauden family is from there, very rich...and good friends with our commander in chief.

Its been known for years, that the Bush family has been in bed with the Arabs...they are both very wealthy oil people

  I'm not here to bash parties or to argue views..  (oh, really????)


We've deteriorated as a nation...our agencies are a joke...we are out of money...we have farmed out the manufacturing of our products to other countries...our properties, our businesses, and I haven't even touched base on our banking systems.

we are weak minded and way to concerned about what others think, I think

Another really frightening thing is our agencies, that have been depleted or are being deleted.

immigration, security, femma....it seems no one knows their job..

Its sad...sad what our country has come to,

We are becoming a weak nation

we've become a lazy nation of money mongers...fighting amoungst our selves over political rights...opinions, etc.

The US was once a powerful nation, in military, manufacturing, technology, etc.

We're giving everything away in this country, b/c we are soft bleeding hearts....and it will one day, result in our own demise

we are to fat and lazy, we want to be paid for little work, and we don't want to get our hands dirty.

we've become a nation of quick fixes...instant gratification...and we're broke...I mean really broke.

.we're selling the soul of our country

we're freakin bleeding hearts...and it will one day come to be, that the US will no longer be ours..

Our military is weak, federal funding of agencies are almost just as bad as the people running them..
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------

Lee, with all due respect,  I'm glad I don't live in the same United States you do. Your statements are filled with factless derrogatory ramblings here....and you ask for someone to ease your mind? I don't think that's what you really want at all, rather someone to agree with your views that the country has gone to hell, Bush is the devil incarnate and we are all on the verge of destruction. If one were to ask you to provide facts on some of the outlandish claims you have made here, would  you be able to provide them? Or are these just your feelings that you portray as certainties?

We were discussing this issue yesterday at work...one gal walked in on the conversation...and said, after listening to us...geeze, you guys ought to talk about something more positive.  She's young and doesn't understand..

I submit that she may understand better than you. I would suggest that you allow a little positivity into your thinking instead of the fall of the United States and the destruction of our values scenario you seem to dwell on. Until that time, perhaps a switch to decaf might help

LeeJ
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39 posted 2006-02-28 07:41 AM


Hi Deer and Good Morning…

Thanks for responding and for your opinion…and I'd like to apologize, not for my opinions...but, in the event that I've offended anyone.

The gal that I spoke of at work, is one of many in this country who says she refuses to watch the news or be informed by what is going on in the US…same was said by some people during 9/11, it’s a lack of an ability to face reality, fear about facing what is going on.  She didn’t even know about the issue of the UAE purchasing our ports.  We had to inform her about it.    Some people don’t want to know…and I can’t blame them…it’s their choice, as an American Citizen to be informed or not.

I’m not asking for someone to agree with my views…I started this thread for people to comment and vent…and my statements are not idle derogatory ramblings…it’s what I’ve seen, heard, read, and strongly believe…both through experiences, and gathering information, since the 2nd term of President Bushes rein.  By listening to the news…objectively and reading.  Shoot, I voted for Bush the first time…but not for his 2nd term.   And I never said Bush was the devil incarnate, although, my personal opinion is….that he will go down in history as the world’s worst President of the United States.

As far as the ports are concerned…time will tell, I suppose, and I could very well be wrong, and you sir, may be right…

Deer, again…let me remind you, I’m an independent…so I’m not on either side…but when Clinton stepped out of office, this country was out of the red, and had a surplus.

The US is now Broke.

Ali…you might have a point there about Union Labor…but I strongly feel selling our ports to a country who has strong ties to terrorists, well I suppose time will tell, who is right and who is wrong.

I’m outraged by this port issue, but, I could be wrong…to be honest…I hope I am wrong…but if I’m right, I suppose it won’t matter by then, who is right and who is wrong…will it?

Bottom line, I started this thread to vent…but honestly, Deer, I don’t really care, who agrees or who doesn’t.  I don't need people to agree with me to deem myself acceptable or happy.  And at this point in time, I stand firmly by my statements and sorry if I touched a nerve.  But, I do believe this administration has done grave damage to our system.  Time will tell, after Bush leaves his chair, and other takes his place...then, you will begin to hear more of what I've stated above...and again, perhaps I was misinformed by all the news hype and disenchanted poliltical groups, media, & journalists?  We'll see, won't we?  

This is still the nice thing about our US of America…we get to choose what we believe in…we get to stand by our views…and we get to talk about our views and heart felt beliefs…openly.  

Besides, I thought that is what this forum was for, to rant and rave about things that are bothering us???  Presently, this administration, really scares me...and so does it's leader

I’d also like to add, if I’ve offended anyone here, I apologize…
I’ve spoken my mind, and it sure feels good to say so.  You see, for years, I was married to a man who wouldn’t allow me opinion, or to speak outwardly or openly….and if I did so, he publicly humiliated me, or worse….and so, to me, this forum has been not only an awakening for me, but it has given me back some form of identity and brought me from silence & fear of speaking, into an open world again…I will never always be right,..I know that, but the ramblings have been  for me, a God sent, gifting me the ability to regain my opinion and for that I say…God bless you Ron and thank you for that.

Deer, all I’ve stated I feel is very true…and I believe the ramifications of what we have done to ourselves…will serve a grave outcome…again…I hope I’m wrong….and if I am, remind me to be the first one to admit it…ok.  And we do live in the same U.S.     and there is a lot of good about our country...especially those who like yourself, are not afraid to stand up for what you believe in...

Many thanks to all of you for your contributions to this thread…

Sincerely
Lee J.


[This message has been edited by LeeJ (02-28-2006 09:54 AM).]

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40 posted 2006-02-28 03:15 PM


Good afternoon, Lee....and you haven't offended anyone. As you correctly stated, this is the place to rant and rave and vent if that's what one needs to do to get things out of one's system. You do it well!!!

You asked for someone to say something that would ease your mind. The only thing I can say is to try to go the extra step in your deductions. Instead of just writing catch-all phrases, try to apply a litttle reasoning to your comments or accusations. It will either help you to have a better understanding of why you feel the way you do or it will suggest that perhaps your views are unfounded or based solely on a fear you can't name.

Since Bush is an oil man that's puts him in bed with the Arabs? and it has been known for years? Please explain that to me. The Bin Laden family is from there and good friends with Bush? What is that suppose to mean? Bush certainly didn't take money from the Bin Laden family to give a speech condemning the US administration, like Gore did. Do you really think that Bush would have the power to shut up three major news networks just because he's a stockholder? Why didn't he shut them up for the dozens of other attacks against him? Our agencies are being depleted or deleted? How many? Which ones? No one knows their jobs in immigration or security? What do you base that on? We're a lazy nation of money mongers? How are we - and how long have we been that way? We do not have a powerful military anymore? We are not a major force in manufacturing or technology? Where do you come up with that reasoning? We are broke? Our economy is the best it's been in over 20 years, as are our unemployment figures. Tell me how we are broke. We want to be paid for little work? I know many people that work very hard for what they have. We are selling the soul of our country? What of all of the soul pieces that were sold before Bush? It's been going on for decades....and it's not our soul.  All people running our federal agencies are bad, as well as the agencies? Which ones? How many? Our banking system? What's wrong with it?

These are all rhetorical questions. I'm not expecting you to answer them. Hopefully, what  I'm doing is trying to point out to you that much of your angst is self-produced and if you will take the time to try to reason things out and justify your comments you may get that relief you seek by realizing that just maybe it is not as dire as what you read and reproduce in conversation. You dwell on the bad and your co-worker looks for the good. What are the odds she is happier than you are generally?

None of my comments are aimed at you in a personal way. I think you're terrific! I'm just saying that if you really want some relief from the fear that has you so scared, gie a little reasonable thought to your arguments and run from cliches. Think things out on your own and don't let headlines rule your mindset....and I still suggest decaf.


LeeJ
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41 posted 2006-02-28 03:25 PM


I've been drinking decaf for years...

thanks for the feedback...and for your kindness...

I don't take it personal, you have a right to believe what you believe...and who you believe in...that's what makes this country grand...diverse...and I'm not quoteing headlines...it's my opinion...my belief...my fears....and I'm not alone in feeling this way...in that you can believe.

I will again say, perhaps I'm wrong...I surely hope so.

sincerely
Lee J.

Juju
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42 posted 2006-02-28 09:17 PM


ballideer I was beeing sarcastic

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43 posted 2006-02-28 09:39 PM


i no.
iliana
Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434
USA
44 posted 2006-03-01 02:07 PM


PIP is a wonderful place, you know that!!!  I briefly scanned this thread and though I don't agree exactly with everyone's opinions, the one common thing I find is a deep concern for the direction of this country.  

Not only have we sold off to the Arabs, but we've sold to anyone who will buy including the Chinese, Japanese, Germans....that's the way of capitalism.  Capitalism knows no boundaries.  Capitalists convince us that in order to survive, we have to work for stock-owned companies and that in order for us to make a decent wage, we must abide by decisions of management and ultimately, the BOD, including outsourcing our own jobs.  It is plain old bottom-line greed that has sold out our country, and we have become a nation of slaves to the almighty dollar! It seems to me that before Capitalism became global, that it worked, but now, this global economy, as they call it....well, it is destroying this country!

The sad thing is that I don't have the slightest idea of how to fix it.  I went into business for myself after 911 because I did not want to work for any "establishment" any longer.  Perhaps, small business enterprise is the way out of this mess for many more, but I don't know how that will protect our ports, borders, airlines, etc.  

As for the port thing, I have mixed feelings.  I agree mostly with what Noah has presented.  Perhaps the best thing Bush has brought to this country is "opening our eyes."  In order for our eyes to open about what has already happened (even before 911), it has taken his BLATANT disregard for common man and his highly visible regard for those with means.  OK, now eyes are opening.....what do we do?  Pay attention and be a squeeky wheel....unfortunately, the squeekiest wheels are those with money enough to lobby.  I suppose when millions of people flock to Washington, D.C., waiving signs and shouting slogans, "down with lobbyists, down with lobbyists," maybe one or two would hear and worry about the polls next election.  BUT what else can we do?  Hey, maybe that's it.  NO LOBBYING....only protesting allowed.  Then the whole nation would know what's going on -- no more closed door deals.

Lee, I'm with you.  I think Lou Dobbs should run for President!  I even emailed him and told him that....lol.  

As to those in power, I think money corrupts, or maybe a better way to put it is that it puts blinders over the eyes of those with it.  They either never felt deprivation in the first place or have forgotten what it feels like, and as long as they are okay, well that's the bottom line.  There are a few exceptions to this case, don't get me wrong -- we just need more exceptions.  So....maybe that's it....the only way to wake up "those people" is to make it profitable....how do we do that?

LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296

45 posted 2006-03-01 02:59 PM


Thank you so much for responding and for your insights Iliana...I'm happy you contributed to this thread.

Thank you for sharing

iliana
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since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434
USA
46 posted 2006-03-01 05:29 PM


Deer questioned:  "Since Bush is an oil man that's puts him in bed with the Arabs? and it has been known for years? Please explain that to me. The Bin Laden family is from there and good friends with Bush? What is that suppose to mean? Bush certainly didn't take money from the Bin Laden family to give a speech condemning the US administration, like Gore did. Do you really think that Bush would have the power to shut up three major news networks just because he's a stockholder? Why didn't he shut them up for the dozens of other attacks against him? Our agencies are being depleted or deleted? How many? Which ones? No one knows their jobs in immigration or security? What do you base that on? We're a lazy nation of money mongers? How are we - and how long have we been that way? We do not have a powerful military anymore? We are not a major force in manufacturing or technology? Where do you come up with that reasoning? We are broke? Our economy is the best it's been in over 20 years, as are our unemployment figures. Tell me how we are broke. We want to be paid for little work? I know many people that work very hard for what they have. We are selling the soul of our country? What of all of the soul pieces that were sold before Bush? It's been going on for decades....and it's not our soul.  All people running our federal agencies are bad, as well as the agencies? Which ones? How many? Our banking system? What's wrong with it?"
________________________

Take a look at some of these if you have a chance.  
http://www.sptimes.com/2003/01/03/Columns/Another_suspect_deal_.shtml
http://www.buzzflash.com/perspectives/bush_harken.html
http://www.americanfreepress.net/10_07_01/Bush___Bin_Laden_-_Georg                      e_W__B/bush___bin_laden_-_george_w__b.html
  http://www.texasobserver.org/showArticle.asp?ArticleID=480
http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/bush/articles/200          4/04/23/us_saudi_ties_eyed_in_presidential_race/

And Deer -- Michael Powell opened up the way for controlled media through his appointment by G. W. Bush to Chairman of the FCC in 2001.  See, http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,88394,00.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Powell_(politician)

His derulations rulings have made it literally possible for the media (and all communications) to be controlled by the highest bidders (creating massive monopolies) -- that includes radio, TV, newspapers, any form of communication including phones.  Now what I want to know....lol....is who owns the three major media companies that America watches, reads and listens to and who sits on their boards.

I know you didn't want an answer to the questions you posed to LeeJ, but there are many ways to find them and the above are just a very, very few.  The more one looks, the more one finds to substantiate some of the things LeeJ has expressed.  I find it interesting that both he and his father, Colin Powell, have resigned from the Bush administration.  

Deer...this is not meant to antagonize just to support some of Lee's contentions.  

[This message has been edited by iliana (03-01-2006 11:06 PM).]

iliana
Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434
USA
47 posted 2006-03-01 06:24 PM


Oh, and if you don't think this country is in trouble economically, please look at this:
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

Balladeer
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48 posted 2006-03-01 11:11 PM


Well, your first link is not active. Let's take a look at the others.

BuzzFlash
----------------
Here are some of t he other stories BuzzFlash ran:

Bushed: The Truth About Bush's Accomplishments - The unvarnished truth about the damage George W. Bush is causing to our citizens, our country and our world.

The Worst President and His Management Claims - Debunking an Email full of Lies.

The Bush Family Values Center - The Bush family is a LOT different than the campaign ads want you to believe. Perhaps they should change their last name to Hypocrisy.

The Bush Family and Republican Corruption


A little biased, wouldn't you say? I can come up with the exact opposite things by referencing right-wing publications.

American Free Press
------------------------------

Opened and closed in 2001, warning the world about a New World Order....your article is 5 years old.

Texas Observer
-----------------------

The article looks for possible ties between Bush and the Bil Laden family and ends with:

"It is a daunting task to unravel the ties between Texas and Saudi oil money, as well as the ties between the Saudi royal family, the bin Laden clan and Osama bin Laden. In this regard, the people of Saudi Arabia and the United States may share a common fate. We may never know the half of it."

In other words, we can't prove anything we say here.
I don't really understand the signifigance of this article, anyway. What would any financial tie between the Bush and BinLaden clans mean?

Boston.com
------------------

Can't access the page but i can imagine what anything from Boston would have to say about Bush   Nor can I understand the point of Michael Powell. That means Bush controls the media? As has been discussed in many threads before, the media is definitely pro-left. They have barbequed Bush at every opportunity, taking their lead from whatever the Democrats have dictated as newsworthy. If Bush runs them, I'd say he's lost control!

I'm sorry but I don't see almost any of my questions you reprinted addressed. Your examples deal with Bush and a stock deal and business ties with the Bin Laden family.

"Our agencies are being depleted or deleted? How many? Which ones? No one knows their jobs in immigration or security? What do you base that on? We're a lazy nation of money mongers? How are we - and how long have we been that way? We do not have a powerful military anymore? We are not a major force in manufacturing or technology? All people running our federal agencies are bad, as well as the agencies? Which ones? How many? Our banking system? What's wrong with it?"

I didn't see answers relating to any of those questions.

As far as the National Debt clock is concerned, what is it?

The National Debt is the total amount of money owed by the government; the federal budget deficit is the yearly amount by which spending exceeds revenue. Add up all the deficits (and subtract those few budget surpluses we've had) for the past 200+ years and you'll get the current National Debt.   So the figure you see is what has been acculmulated for over 200 years.

As you can see, the largest slice of the pie, over 40%, is owed to the Federal Reserve Bank and to other government accounts; that is, this part of the Debt is owed by one part of the government to another. The remaining 60% of the Debt, roughly $3.3 trillion, is privately held.

The above information is from the June 1999 issue of the "Treasury Bulletin", a quarterly publication of the U.S. Treasury


So what does that mean? It means that almost half of the figure you see is simply one part of the government owing money to another part of the government.  So how is that economically destructive to us? Besides, your example is from 1999, seven years ago. Hmmm....who was president then?

it has taken his BLATANT disregard for common man and his highly visible regard for those with means.   I contend that the "common man" is much better off thanks to Bush. I always find it amazing that Republicans are always painted as being for the rich by the Democrats, who actually ARE always for the rich. The common man has no complaint with Bush as far as the economy is concerned.

we have become a nation of slaves to the almighty dollar!   Perhaps LeeJ will share a cup of that decaf with  you   We are hardly a nation of slaves. You and I both, being small business owners, know better than that. We live in the strongest, most stable economy in the world and we have more freedoms and opportunities than anyone alive. To anyone who preaches doom and destruction and our country going to hell in a handbasket, I say go outside and look around and appreciate what you see. No president, good or bad, has the ability to take that away.

Alicat
Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094
Coastal Texas
49 posted 2006-03-02 12:28 PM


Well, going by some of the logic presented, President Bush has had an even longer presidency than FDR.  Six of his own years, as well as being President during President Clinton's Administration for every bad thing that happened from 1992-2000.
iliana
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since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434
USA
50 posted 2006-03-02 12:46 PM


"I always find it amazing that Republicans are always painted as being for the rich by the Democrats, who actually ARE always for the rich. The common man has no complaint with Bush as far as the economy is concerned."

Now, Deer...I kind of take offense at that (kidding) because I happen to be a registered Republican (though I did not vote for Bush...too many secrets here in Texas).  

Furthermore, I will find you some valid/updated information to back the points I was trying to get you to investigate because there are hundreds of things...I just pulled up the first ones my search found.  

As far as the national debt.... I don't know enough to argue that.  But you don't think there is anything wrong with our economy???  I guess I will work on trying to show you how my social security may well not be there for me because those funds have been borrowed to fund Bush's hayday of spending.  I'm sorry....I do not like what has happened since he has been in office....no, I take it back, I will not apologize for what I've seen and studied.  I am not a scholar and did not intend to formally argue Lee's points for her, but she has made some valid ones!  

I can't agree with the fact that the country has gotten lazy grouping of questions though.  I've busted my butt for 35 years now and will be until the day I die (unless I really do get the 30 years of social security I worked for!!!!).  So please don't put me into your category of liberal left wingers....I will be an independent in the future.....that's what the Bush administration has done for me.  

As far as the economy goes.....tell me why Ford and GM have laid off so many workers this past year if times are not difficult.  Tell me why there is not enough going on in the car industry for those people to have kept their jobs (car sales down, perhaps, because people can't afford new ones).  Tell me why energy costs have gone up over 25% for electricity here in Houston where energy is so abundant.  Tell me why my husband who works for an oil company has only had 1 raise in 5 years and there have been massive layoffs over those last five years and he has a good job rating (thank God he wasn't laid off!).  Tell me why, when oil companies are demonstrating all-time high profits for their shareholders.  Tell me why my daughter who has a masters degree and 6 years of administrative assistant background (worked her way through college) has sent out an average of 50 or so resumes a day in NYC for the past four months and still hasn't got a job except for one offer for 12 hrs. a week in a Bath & Body shop and yes, I do know that for a fact as I have access to her email....lol).  

If I sound angry, it is not at you Balladeer.  I am really angry that as hard as some folks work, they can never get ahead in today's world.  It's a world of networking and knowing the right people and if you're plugged in then you really don't know how the rest of the country is.

Our schools suffer.  Talk to any teacher honestly about how they feel about No Child Left Behind.  They'll tell you they hate it. And many children ARE being left behind.  We just got the news tonight about the Texas schools.  Money down the drain, dropouts extensive, and failures rampant, test scores down -- not up!

BUT....HEY, I'll do some good research and get back to you here with it since my dander is up.  But not tonight.  My feeling is that I shouldn't even try to convince you...a deer can be lead to water, but darned if you can make it drink....lol.  I imagine the research will do me good though and make me a little more articulate.  Bet Noah could spit it out very rapidly.         

Help, Noah!

iliana
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since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434
USA
51 posted 2006-03-02 12:49 PM


Another thing, yes, I am a small business owner, Deer, but Tort Reform has nearly killed my business....it's struggling.  Another example of how the drug/insurance industries have hurt the common man (and I know who their biggest cheerleader is, our own George W.)....and I do count myself in the struggling mid-to-lower middle income class (although 10 years ago, we would have been upper middle class income).  
iliana
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since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434
USA
52 posted 2006-03-02 01:34 AM


The point about the Powells was this:  Colin Powell was one of Bush's trump cards to rewin his election -- the man carried a great deal of credibility.  Once re-elected, he "resigned."  

His son, Michael, accomplished through deregulation what would be required if mass media were going to be the means of a certain type of propoganda.  Then he resigned.  

Doesn't that make anyone wonder why?  Or is it just me.  The timing was after both Powells had used up the credibility card and accomplished what was needed...no longer useful and Colin Powell had problems with Rumsfeld's policies which were Bush's policies.  The "team" was not working any longer so he "resigned."  I cannot support this with anything other than observation.  

And no, the three major media companies are definitely not left wing --  maybe one of them, but definitely not Fox and its parent company (which I might add was originally not an American company, majority shares owned by Australian Murdock)-- Fox liberal???????   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Murdock -- My point is that other news sources are made to look liberal intentionally -- I do not consider most of the information from CNN liberal, I said most.  I do not believe CNN's coverage on the borders or the port issue to be liberal bias -- they have presented both sides, and you have to admit, even Fox has been covering those issues (although they seem to be leaning toward Bush's side about the UAE deal).  The objections raised have been bi-partisan!  

Now if you had said that the major media companies were greedy for the massive profits, I would agree.  I think the ones you call liberal, really only give the audience what they're asking for and if that appears to be liberal, then your argument that they are all liberal would mean the majority of Americans are liberal, right?  Under that argument, how did Bush get elected?  

If the reason why Bush says he'll veto any rejection of the ports deal is to save face, then I think it stinks.  If it's because we have many ex-pats living in the UAE and turning the UAE down might result in violence against our citizens there and closing down of the oil operations there, then this is downright blackmail.  A leader with real backbone would not be held ransom.  He'd put us on gas rationing and enforce some of the environmental energy regulations against the big businesses who waste so much and pollute the air.  I mean, afterall, we are at war!  In WWII, according to my mom, anything steel or metal was conserved.  Well, we're at war now...and where is the conservation???

[This message has been edited by iliana (03-03-2006 02:43 AM).]

iliana
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since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434
USA
53 posted 2006-03-02 02:28 AM


"Our banking system?"

I can actually remember a time when you could put $10 in a savings account and draw 6% interest.  Tell me where you can do that now?  I don't know how banks would operate without making some money -- I just think the playing field should be a little more level...if they loan out at 7%, then pay interest on savings accounts at 6%; make a point of profit. But, dah, they have Boards of Directors to answer to, too.

****
Alicat - I had to laugh at your comment!  I won't argue with you about that.  Clinton and Bush both seem to be in agreement as to a New World Order and have been pretty successful in creating it...it's not too far away if things keep going the way they are. (It's just that the New World Order is not what the ordinary guy might think it would be.)  We've had the same president for about 30 years, I think...lol...in that regard.  

And for anyone who doesn't believe that "the new world order" is a mindset growing out of the Trilateralist post-WWII and embraced in one form or another by every president, both Republican and Democratic alike, since Nixon (heck, I don't know, maybe even Nixon had that in mind), then they'd better take a second look.  It's an ideology that is believed to ultimately level out the whole world economically for anyone who has not heard that term before.  (Job outsourcing to foreign countries, I truly believe, was probably foreseen years ago and probably hoped for as part of this plan.  As long as people in power were making more profit, who would care about the loss of hundreds of thousands of jobs middle class Americans could fill.  It fits the agenda.)  

[This message has been edited by iliana (03-02-2006 03:18 AM).]

Balladeer
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54 posted 2006-03-02 07:26 PM


Iliana, I'll be back to answer. Geez, you are making me work! Just letting you know that I did not classify you as a loony left-winger or intend any of the comparisons as a personal jab in your direction I admire the way you stand up for your beliefs and you express yourself with class, sincerity...and vigor! I'll  be back...
Balladeer
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55 posted 2006-03-02 09:27 PM


"As far as the national debt.... I don't know enough to argue that."

You listed it to try to prove some kind of point. Why would you do that if you don't know that much about it? Was it just because it had a big number that looked impressive?

"I guess I will work on trying to show you how my social security may well not be there for me because those funds have been borrowed to fund Bush's hayday of spending.

Iliana, don't you have any idea how many years money has been taken out of the social security fund? It's set up that way as a slush fund and has been for many years. It hardly began with Bush and its deficit can hardly be laid on Bush's doorstep.


Tell me why Ford and GM have laid off so many workers this past year if times are not difficult.  Tell me why there is not enough going on in the car industry for those people to have kept their jobs (car sales down, perhaps, because people can't afford new ones). "

Yesterday the results came out in 10 different categories of the best cars in the United States. Guess what? In all 10 categories Japanese cars won. You want to know why ford and GM has layoffs? Ask the unions.

Hyundai Motor February sales rise 23% on year Long Link

BMW Group's Year-to-Date Sales Are on the Rise Long Link

Yes, people can afford new cars and they are buying them....just not American ones. Whose fault is that?

I certainly can't speak with reference to your husband although I agree with you 100% that's it's a crime that the oil companies make record profits at the expense of the American public. Do you feel that started with Bush? I can show you figures where it didn't.  Nor can I speak of your daughter but do you think her inability to be hired in her field is Bush's fault? Or the fault of the economy based on Bush's actions? Stories of college grads flipping burgers at McDonald's  are not uncommon. The aura of a college diploma does not shine as it once did, nor does it guarantee anything. I can remember back when, if I need a job, I answered a classified ad, went for an interview and got hired. Now there are hundreds lined up for that job and you leave a resume and don't even get an interview unles you are very, very lucky. That's the way it is - Bush didn't do it.

"I am really angry that as hard as some folks work, they can never get ahead in today's world.  It's a world of networking and knowing the right people and if you're plugged in then you really don't know how the rest of the country is."

I think your comment is way too general to be accurate. To say "It's a world...." is not realistic. Some people do indeed get ahead in this world and they do it by hard work. Come on down to Miami. I'll show you a few thousand Cubans who came here with nothing and worked their butts off to make a success of themselves. They didn't consider it their 'birthright" or something that the government owed them....they worked. So have many Americans, ones without their hands out, saying gimmee.

"I can actually remember a time when you could put $10 in a savings account and draw 6% interest.  Tell me where you can do that now?"

LOL...I can do better than that. I can remember buying T-bills that returned 12%!  No, you can't do that anywhere. That makes it our banking system's fault? I can also remember buying a Pepesi for a nickel.

Here are some figures for the past 10 years. Look at 1996 and 2006 and you may be surprised at how little difference there is:

One year treasury rate from 1996 - 2006
----------------------------------------------------------
   1996   1997   1998   1999   2000   2001   2002   2003   2004   2005   2006
Jan   5.09%   5.61%   5.24%   4.51%   6.12%   4.81%   2.16%   1.36%   1.24%   2.86%   4.45%

Prime rate 1996-2006
-------------------------------

   1996   1997   1998   1999   2000   2001   2002   2003   2004   2005   2006
Jan 1 8.50% 8.25% 8.50% 7.75% 8.50% 9.50% 4.75% 4.25% 4.00% 5.25% 7.25%

Iliana, I can understand your concerns, believe me. I personally would like to turn the clock back about 30 years, back to the good old days (that is, if they really were). I also agree that there are many areas in which we have fallen and need to get back on track. Our difference is that you seem willing to lay it at Bush's door and I say that it goes back to long before Bush placed his cowboy boots under the White House bed.

[Edit to fix long links - Ron]

[This message has been edited by Ron (03-03-2006 12:26 AM).]

iliana
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since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434
USA
56 posted 2006-03-02 10:26 PM


Deer -- I appreciate and thank you for your reply.  

Not a lot of time to reply tonight yet, but I will say, I put it at Bush's feet because he is our Commander in Chief, he is our President, and the ball has passed to him to do something about it, but it does truly appear to me that his interests ly primarily in serving big business interests.  And this port issue, really is a big concern.  He outright said he didn't know anything about it until the deal had been approved.  Today, the news is reporting that he did, indeed, know.  That bothers me.  I am just downright disappointed in the way his policies continue to progress.  If you read my post above, I said that we'd had the same president for 30 years, lol.  I'm not going to fight about whether it was a dem. or rep. -- doesn't matter.  The ball is in his court now and the buck stops with him -- that's part of holding that office.  

iliana
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since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434
USA
57 posted 2006-03-02 10:47 PM


Deer -- You asked:  "Nor can I speak of your daughter but do you think her inability to be hired in her field is Bush's fault?"

Yes, I do believe her lack of placement relates directly to him.  You see her Masters Degree is in Music/Opera studies.  She is a graduate of the Juilliard School -- the finest performing arts school in the U.S. and she cannot get work.  (Of course, she has the administrative background, too, as a safeguard...but that is not working either).  Funding for the arts has been drastically cut under Bush's reign.  When arts do not flourish, the demise of the culture begins....that is the way of civilization.  Because of funding cuts, many, many students are being denied their very identity.  Fortunately, Abby was talented enough to get privately funded scholarships that covered the majority of her tuition and she's worked and borrowed for the rest.  She's one of the lucky ones in at least she completed her education.  But because of funding cuts, lack of grants, etc., many opera (she's a singer) companies are having to tighten up their belts or folded -- and the politics is worse than ever, even in music, much more now than ever before, because of cuts that were a part of Bush's policy.  As a musician, which I have heard you are, surely, you can appreciate that.  Oh, and by the way, it isn't just opera or music, it is all the arts (the very thing that makes a culture a culture).  

I know, I know....this is the typical story of "the starving artist."  Competition is tough.  It's just that because of the economic environment created by the lack of adequate funding....I really do think it has impacted her chances.  

He did propose a couple hundred million for arts funding in 2006 but part of that is set aside as matching funds, and that covers everything from the national arhives, libraries, museums, music, folk arts, etc. (pretty sure the presidential libraries are covered in that, too...lol).  $200M a year is less than 1% of the national budget.  I would have thought that our national treasures were worth a little more than that.  

[This message has been edited by iliana (03-03-2006 12:22 AM).]

iliana
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since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434
USA
58 posted 2006-03-03 02:28 AM


Michael, I am not going to spend more time trying to debate things here.  It would take forever and I really don't have the time right now.... but I think the link below will speak for me adequately enough.  

I want to make it clear that the reason I hold Bush into account is because he is the labeled leader of our country.  But, I think there is much more going on than most have any idea.  

I have not read the ebook (which is linked below) in its entirety yet (only about half) and it is already outdated in some areas (I think it was published in 2003/2004) in that it must have been written before Schroeder was replaced as the German Chancellor....but it is full of interesting facts and references.  Michael, the answer to the National Debt and how it relates to economic problems in this country is answered there.  It is the conspiracy theorists textbook of all time....but it is well substantiated and documented.  I would challenge anyone to read it and test the truth of the facts outlined therein.  It is definitely food for thought.   http://www.threeworldwars.com/dload/ebooks/psrm.pdf   If that link won't open for you, please email me.  Thanks for the debate....jo



LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296

59 posted 2006-03-03 07:21 AM


Ilana, thanks so much, for offering all the information you have.  It has been my experience, in both contributing to these forums, or simply sitting back and reading them...
1st they want proof, which is understandable and credible, but when you give them sites to go to and read...they #&*!@ put the kabashes to even that...simply my point, about Party's...b/c your a democrate or a republican, we feel as if we have to back even the most corrupt of leaders...just had this same conversation with my brother in law...OUR POLITICIANS ARE CORRUPT...BOTH SIDES...IT ISN'T ONE OR THE OTHER TO BLAME, IT IS BOTH SIDES....and the sooner we realize that the sooner perhaps we can bring this country back on it's feet????  This is what really baffels me????

And...to boot, the minute you do come up with links to back up what you say...then they find it necessary to humiliate you...and say it's nothing personal????

Time will tell, I suppose, but even then, people will still be in denial b/c they are afraid to face the facts and say they are wrong and were wrong for voting for Bush.

I voted for Bush the first term...he didn't do a great job...so the second term I voted for Kerry, not that I felt he would do a better job, but He is all we had to vote for????  

I can't wait until the debates this coming election...both sides had the audacity to stand up on live TV and say, "WE HAVE A PLAN" for almost every issue... and the irony is...this country actually bought that without any questions what so ever????

What has happened to our common sense, and our ability to say....WHAT PLAN...we want to know how you intend to go about this plan...what is it?  I couldn't help but shake my head in complete and utter disappointment...thinking..."How illodical is this?".

and just wait...if and when Hillary runs...I can bet most of those voting for her will be women...simply b/c she is a woman...??? I mean, there will be lots of woman who don't care about the issues at hand, and the decline of this country, our assets...and how we're going to go about fixing these problems...they will simply cast a vote b/c she's a woman????????

God I really, really wish, this country would use our brains to think...

Ilana, I'd be pleased to have a cup of decaf with you anytime, and thanks for posting all the information you did...I knew if I would, the information would be rejected.  I've been following and watching this administrations works, right from the beginning and everything I stated was true, not ramblings...and I believe every word of it, especially after the response to Katrina.  We've got to many people in office, in postions representing the people who know nothing about their job description, or how to do it....including Government agencies.  I've had experience with one...Child Welfare...I'm talking about a foster child I had experience with, and that couple from NJ...who practically starved their foster children to death.  My God...a 17 year old boy who weighed all of 60 lbs...and this family was being visited by Child Welfare representatives, and they claim, they didn't know????????  I won't get into my experience...

And then there's FEMA...don't get me started on that...

How can this country be sound economically when we manufacture very little in this country anymore, our major corporations are closing down, and moving to other countries, or outsourcing a major part of their jobs?  

Our Technology...God, is that a joke!  Years ago, there was a vigulance on, everyone was trying so hard to purchase American Made Products, to reject the imports from other country and back what was being manufactured here...no more...no more...we make hardly anything in this country anymore and if we do, they are shoddy.  Look at who your leading manufacturers are...Why is this happening...b/c corporate American has to make anywhere from 200 to 500 thousand a year, not including bonuses.  It's all greed instead of dedication to this country and it's people.  

How in the world, can a huge company like American Airlines, United Airlines go broke after sucking top dollar from corporate travelors for years????  I'll tell you how...look at what kind of salaries the CEO's and Corporate leaders of these companies are making...and they have to spend millions of dollars hiring consultants to tell them how to do their jobs?????  If it were me, I'd be ashamed to take that money and call it my salary....not to mention, the pork barrel spending...Christmas Parties, meetings...does any one realize the money that is poured into simple meetings and video conf. meetings?  

We've become a nation that wants to be rich, and expect outrageous salaries....bonuses...and Corporate America rewards bad behavior...jobs are not evaluated anymore and if they are, they are extremely political...and when was the last time you heard of anyone being fired from their job? Not to mention, the incompitance in positions.  A country, is only as good as it's leaders.

Law suits have gone above and beyond the normal....and judges are trying them instead of throwing them out of court, not to mention rewarding idot law suits.

I could go on and on, but I'd be once again, accused of rambling....well, so be it...but I promise you this, America is broke, and that is why this Port Sales was going thru.  Foreign countries have been buying us out, for years...trucking companies, banks, etc.  They've been sitting back, saving their money, and purchasing everything we have for sale...believe it...we had better open our eyes and wake up to reality here...it's not about what party, it's about what both parties have been doing to us for years.  And when people debate like this, they've got us right where they want us...and we've done it to ourselves...

Again...I make the claim, that when Bush leaves his office, all of us are going to be shocked at the goings on.  Why do you think, Colin Powell left...Good men leave, and if good men get into politics they are either bullied out, scandalized, or assassinated.  This country is corrupt...not all it's people, but certainly the majority...and again...I'm thanking Lou Dabbs for bring this port sale to the forefront...b/c if he hadn't this entire sale would have gone through without this country knowing it.

Now why do you think they kept it quiet????
And why did the Arab Nation tell Lou Dabbs to quote "shut up"?????

And now all of a sudden Bush is head of the committee that is going to oversee this 45 day assesment...(shock)...

Deer, I'm not trying to insult any party, but certainly, my steadfast belief is, that Bush has done nothing for this country during both his terms...I'm not against the party, but the incompitence of both parties...so please don't think I'm trying to insult you...K?  

I'd simply like to see this world a better place for our grandchildren.

[This message has been edited by LeeJ (03-03-2006 08:16 AM).]

Balladeer
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60 posted 2006-03-03 08:42 AM


Deer, I'm not trying to insult any party, but certainly, my steadfast belief is, that Bush has done nothing for this country during both his terms...I'm not against the party, but the incompitence of both parties...so please don't think I'm trying to insult you...K?

Yes, you are trying to insult me.

1st they want proof, which is understandable and credible, but when you give them sites to go to and read...they #&*!@ put the kabashes to even that..

And...to boot, the minute you do come up with links to back up what you say...then they find it necessary to humiliate you...and say it's nothing personal????


Iliana and I have had a reasonable conversation and exchange of ideas which neither of us has taken offense to. My comments about her links were not personal, not was there any attempt to humiliate her. Actually i praised her and yet you find it necessary to come in after the fact and be insulting.  Have a nice day....

LeeJ
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since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296

61 posted 2006-03-03 09:20 AM


I have not directed this at you Deer...and I'm sorry that you have taken offense...this has been my experience in the past with these forums...I'm sorry if your feelings were hurt, but it wasn't directed at you, and if you would be so kind to re-read...I said, they...not you or Deer...this is not the first forum that I've contributed to...the last thing I want to do Deer is hurt anyone's feelings....this is a conversation...and I would like to apologize

Sincerely
Lee J.

[This message has been edited by LeeJ (03-03-2006 10:03 AM).]

Balladeer
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62 posted 2006-03-03 06:13 PM


No problem, Lee. Looking back at the thread you will see that i am the only person who responded to Iliana's threads which mean the comments could have been aimed at no one else. Don't worry about my feelings. I get fired on, I fire back and the matter is forgotten, no bad feelings held. I still think you're a dynamite lady...
Mistletoe Angel
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63 posted 2006-03-04 12:01 PM




Hi, Jo! I am soooooooo happy you have contributed some wonderful, independent points to this discussion, and wanted to take the moment to respond to some of them, especially on education.

First of all, I'm a registered independent, who voted other than the presidency for the Oregon Green Party from Teresa Keane for US Senate down to Congress and beyond. I am disenchanted with both parties, and though I believe the Democrats do somewhat better in terms of domestic policy, both parties are divorced of our traditional values of small government, state rights and fiscal responsibility, and in terms of foreign policy, both parties are fixed in this "new world order" interventionist scheme that's undermining our nation's greatest desires; universal health care, a strong public education system, environmental conservation, etc. I'm very much middle-of-the-road in most of my beliefs, fairly socially conservative and fairly economically liberal.

I am an independent who yearns for the day when we have a democratic environment that allows more and more independent voices who don't come out of corporate and political family prestige represented and heard. I yearn for fusion balloting, reform to our rigid two-party system, and the kind of party I'd certainly desire to see is a socially conservative party that also has strong progressive vision, kind of a mix between our traditional conservative values imbued with something along he line of the Green Party's 10 Values of sustainability, ecological wisdom, non-interventionist foreign policy and greatest concern on domestic needs.

I absolutely wanted to vote for David Cobb of the Green Party in 2004. But what I desired most of all in 2004 was change, as I perceived how dangerous the Bush administration was during the first term, and frankly, Cobb didn't have a snowball's chance in hell because he wasn't represented in the debates, his campaign wasn't represented in the media, most Americans didn't even know who he was, and finally he just wasn't on the ballot in some states. I strongly disliked voting for Kerry in 2004, but at the very least I did believe he would be a more responsible president, and would focus more on domestic needs.

I don't want to see our nation dominated by far-right lobbyist interests who attempt to force the population into a one-size-fits-all fundamental faith and tell you what you can and cannot read, who can or who cannot have civil unions, tell you which faith is good and which faith is immoral, etc., just as I don't want it dominated by far-left influences that tell you where you can or cannot smoke your cigarette, which cereals your children can or cannot eat, that vegans respect the world and meat-eaters are murderers, etc. I would like to see our nation return to the good old days like Balladeer yearns, where we govern from the center-left and center-right and embrace a bi-lateral understanding of core values.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Mistletoe Angel
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64 posted 2006-03-04 12:31 PM


Now, I wanted to make some points responding to your domestic concerns, particularly on education.

Indeed our public education system is in a state of crisis. It has been vulnerable for decades, and really I can understand why many saw potential with the No Child Left Behind Act to begin with because it indeed encourages great reform, and I do give Spellings and others credit for testing a different social approach, despite my opinion that NCLB has made the problwm worse ultimately.

For years our schools just don't get all the money they need. Like Jo said (which I agree strongly with), art and music classes are being cut dramatically, and in doing so the underprivileged kids have very few outlets in finding their calling, their true inner-voice and destiny, and even for the many who do, there are a huge deficit of resources.

No Child Left Behind I feel has only made the cynicism toward the public education system stronger. It's very much an initiative rooted on mistrust and pressure points, which draws many unrealistic expectations for all public school systems, expecting them to reach all these thresholds in test performance, punishing schools who fail to reach the thresholds with sanctioning and budget cutting and making the public school system more competitive than ever before. So I actually see it as an excuse to find an alternative to public schools.

I think the scariest thing about NCLB is that its architects claim its based on "scientific evidence". If they mean science as the Hawthorne Effect, the theory that if you put more pressure on someone, he or she will work harder and better, you're just pressing your luck and gambling with the children. How is assuming the grass is greener on the other side of the fence every time, or the theory sending a kid from one school to another will excel, scientific?

According to NCLB, each school is hoped to have 100% proficiency in math, reading and science by 2014. When ANY class group or grade fails to meet the "adequate yearly progress" requirements at any time, the school is penalized, and repeated failures forces the school to take as much as 20% of their money and use it in transferring students to schools which are achieving. In Michigan alone, over 400 schools have been penalized, over 200 of them in the Detroit area, and within these affected districts, at least 82,000 students are eligible to be transferred with only 2,300 able to afford tutoring based on their family's economic status.

Moreover, NCLB is just homogenizing education. There are Great Lakes Native American groups that feel this is encouraging forced assimilation, Latinos in California and the Southwest in particular need more time to master the English language and are forced to these same standards, and it is affecting state rights in that this rises above individual state's education system desires. Utah has even spoken out against NCLB.

*

In my experience volunteering and helping educate children at local elementary schools with kids with special needs, I have come to realize the importance of the proverb, "It takes a whole village to raise a child". It makes me wonder, "Where is the community? What must be done, or, what is example, to bringing the village together again for the sake of our children?"

Here in Portland, in 1998, the City of Portland and Multnomah County agreed to partner up to support school success and education by forming a "school-based delivery model". In result, a committee of representatives from the county, city, state, school districts and local community organizations was formed, which met for seven months to design this ideal delivery model. The labor of love formed in the process was an expanded community school proposal that "added educational activities and social services, and increased the involvement of families, community members and local businesses."

Together, they patented what is now known as "SUN Schools", which stands for "Schools Uniting Neighborhoods". They selected eight schools to begin with to go under the name, which they chose the schools based on four characteristics; 1) "a successful history of integrating services and intergovernmental collaboration", 2) "a successful history of community partnerships", 3) "had a three to five year plan which integrates the broad parameters of this concept on a local level", and 4) that the school had challenging neighborhood conditions, such as "underserving by social support services", high numbers of students from different backgrounds, or challenged by unemployment or poverty.

In the process, each SUN school believes in the ethics that learning "involves personal discovery, action, observation and reflection" and that their creative, hands-on active education program "is a process of respecting one’s self, the arts, and our connections to others and the natural world." They also encourage the community to volunteer and help out, for they believe interaction with the community advances the full social potential for each child.

I volunteered at one of these schools last term, Buckman Elementary. I witnessed and monitored multiple classes to see these ethics put into action, and I have to say it was the most wonderful experience of volunteer work. Last November, after suggesting to the teacher of Storytime Players to choose a story that also incorporates the moral of understanding others, she decided on "Giraffes Can’t Dance" by Giles Andreae, a book about a giraffe who wants to dance, but with crooked knees, jellylike neck and long wobbly legs, is the laughing stock at the annual Jungle Dance, until a cricket tells him that those who are different "just need a different song" and then finds his voice to the music of the moon, where his soulful dancing wins over the whole animal kingdom and teaches young readers that everyone can be wonderful, and we will in embracing the voice within.

I was reminded earlier in the year when learning of the social learning approach. After you govern yourself and find your integrity or find your voice, it takes observation to be able to relate or interpret other everyday life situations. Albert Bandura, a modern social psychologist, believes that "the fundamental approach of social learning theorists is based on the recognition that behavior is in large measure determined by situational factors outside the individual" and that the individual plays a major role in analyzing the situation through psychological response.

In other words, it’s basically the notion of "It takes a whole village to raise a child" all over again, in that we all must "attend to actions of others" and witness the situations, remember what happened and also what happened to who was being observed, choose to imitate or not according to our moral conscience, and treat each evaluation as a learning experience.

Ultimately, through understanding yourself and observing others, then interacting among others, you grow to acknowledge the importance of community, which I once again indeed felt since the first day volunteering there.

That's what I feel a lack of in NCLB. Community. NCLB is more testimonial than scientific to me, and privatizes more than it volunteers.

In a Leadership for Change class I took last semester, I learned something that I still feel now. Peter Vaill, a professor from the University of St. Thomas, likes to think of these times as "swirling rapids of permanent white water" and that simply working harder is not the way to fight the tides, but rather working smarter. Working smarter collectively, knowing that "collaborative practices build more community and commitment than isolated, individual actions do.", reflectively smarter in taking the time to make sense out of what is happening "in order to gain perspective and understanding" and "keep a sense of common purpose" and spiritually smarter in being aware of our values that help shape our character. In this co-op personal leadership approach, Vaill claims we can gain new insight and understand and recognize paradigms and the progress we’ve made.

I just don't see that happening under NCLB. This is a gamble, a shot in the dark, a lot of helter-skelter, and I'm concerned of the unpredictable effects it can have on the public education system and the relationships between students, teachers, parents, educational activists and faculties.

I think we need some model that leans more to community like SUN Schools, where local, regional and state communities and governments can decide together how they'd like their education system operated. And most importantly, our children need the funding.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

iliana
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since 2003-12-05
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65 posted 2006-03-04 01:00 AM


Noah, thanks for the rescue on education!  Now, help me out on my theories about the new world order, please!  I gave that link, but I don't know if anyone will read it or not.  

LeeJ, I'd be proud to have that cup of coffee anytime.

Deer....read the book   lol

Mistletoe Angel
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66 posted 2006-03-04 01:28 AM




(giggles) I think it'll require two to three days for me to read all 200+ pages of that, LOL, but I do believe you've provided a most important source to this discussion here and am most interested in reading into this.



Love,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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