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to protect religions from insults

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LeeJ
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25 posted 02-02-2006 02:02 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Hey Ron, they can surely have an oppinion about me being a sex object any ol time....
  

Hey buddy, you followin me?  I hate it when you have an opinion...over riding my opinion Now Cut That Out!!!!

yeah, your right...but not totally, but I'm surely not stupid enough to point out where I disagree.....hehehehe

Ok, ok, I'm light as a feather...I wish

seriously, I catch your drift Ron and you do make sense, but we should all lighten up and allow...I believe truly, and whole heartidly that politically correct has taken something out of us all...and has it really resulted in contentment with those who feel the need for it?  or has it opened a can of worms for more, more, more, until it become unbearable ludicrist...all for me and none for all...


Grinch
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26 posted 02-02-2006 05:58 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

Ron,

Protecting women from wolf-whistling construction workers seems reasonable but restricting the women from voicing their opinion of wolf-whistling construction workers may be a closer analogy.

There’s censorship and censorship, there’s the type that attempts to protect innocent people from harm, examples of this type of censorship would be restrictions on personal threats or incitement. The second kind is the restriction of criticism, this type of censorship attempts to suppress the right to free speech and open access to alternate views.  A good example of this would be Chinas attempts to control access to information over the Internet. The religious cartoon example is, in my opinion, the second kind and ranks right up there with outlawing women who tell wolf-whistlers exactly what they think of them.

RSWells,

I don’t disagree with what you are saying, I just don’t agree with the tone – I think that the louder you shout the more likely it is for people to put their hands over their ears, which is a distinct disadvantage if you want them to listen to what you have to say.

“Religions are an insult to humans”

I don’t see religion as far as a personal belief in god is concerned as the real insult; I see the organisation and hierarchy that controls it as the problem. There’s a very real danger when you attack religion that other people like Bessie O'Leary and Elmo Watts get caught in the crossfire. You must accept that there’s a lot of good that comes out of religion on a personal level, some people use faith to help them through hard times for instance and some people naturally reflect and exude the best parts of their religious belief onto others. The danger comes when money and power are added to the mix, when individuals, governments and theocracies pervert the personal belief of the individual into vendettas for private gain.

I posted this quote in a previous thread, I’m going to post it again because if read a certain way it’s a perfect example of my point.

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

Steven Weinberg

My take on this is that the first ‘religion’ mentioned is personal faith – the harmless kind - and that the second ‘religion’ mentioned is the kind perverted by religious leadership that can mislead generally good people with personal faith into doing some evil things.

Only in this last sense is religion an insult to humans.

icebox
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27 posted 02-02-2006 07:33 PM       View Profile for icebox   Email icebox   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for icebox

deleted in compliance with small minded bigotry.


[This message has been edited by icebox (02-03-2006 01:55 AM).]

Grinch
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28 posted 02-02-2006 07:56 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


“I find the activies of the UN to be an insult to the human spirit, and I find the corrupt personal behavior of its leaders to be an insult to all free human beings.”

It’s a valid point - maybe it’s not just religions that make good people do evil things perhaps power corrupts all leaders and the initial intention gets corrupted or lost along the way.

Is the concept of the UN an insult or the actions undertaken in its name?

Is the concept of religious groups an insult or the actions undertaken in its name?

Huan Yi
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29 posted 02-02-2006 08:28 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


Let’s approach this another way.
Let’s say we’re a devotedly Christian region
which has the resources on which the rest and Non-Christian world
heavily relies.  Further, there are countries in that Non-Christian
world which allow what we perceive to be insults to our god
and his son, (suggesting for example that all Jesus’ apostles were
male because he “liked” men).  What obligation is it that we
never the less provide the resources for those countries to prosper?

The depiction of Islam's God, ( I’m not absolutely sure of Mohamed), is expressly
forbidden; a limitation honored for centuries by countless millions.
Who then says they are required to feed the needs of those who do not
share their respect?


“Mr Rasmussen said the issue has gone beyond Denmark to become a clash between Western free speech and Islamic taboos.”

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4675462.stm

[This message has been edited by Huan Yi (02-02-2006 09:44 PM).]

Ron
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30 posted 02-02-2006 08:59 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
The religious cartoon example is, in my opinion, the second kind and ranks right up there with outlawing women who tell wolf-whistlers exactly what they think of them.

Actually, Grinch, it's more like women labeling all men the same as they now label the wolf-whistlers and players. I really don't have a problem with one person telling another person when they're out of line. My problem is when one person insults and denigrates a group of people, the vast majority of whom they don't even know, based only on assumptions and stereotypes. It's bigotry, pure and simple.
icebox
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31 posted 02-02-2006 10:07 PM       View Profile for icebox   Email icebox   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for icebox

The original question was simple; this was it:

"“Meanwhile pan-Arab organisations have begun efforts to reach a UN resolution, backed by possible sanctions, to protect religions from insults. “

Would you support such a move?"

My answer still is "No."  

There was more to my answer, but apparently ALL of it was some form of thought crime. Not sure I understand profanity, but don't care enough to discuss it since my entire reply was censored and not simply what ever was considered profane. I find the rhetoric of morally bankrupt third world countries to be profane when they attempt to dictate social policy to the rest of the world.

[This message has been edited by icebox (02-02-2006 11:03 PM).]

LeeJ
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32 posted 02-03-2006 07:01 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

I heard it said last evening and it is my belief...

"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.  We are spiritual beings having a human experience."

I suppose what it comes down to and I'm being very serious about this, we all should possess respect for the beliefs of others...regardless of how mundane or idiotic they might seem to us.  

As someone mentioned in this thread, there are good and bad people, as there is good and bad in all of us.  I suppose one has to decide if the cartoon was written with malicious intent, or, was it simply a humorous spin?  Who decides that?  Surely we all have a different opinion...does it merrit war, killing?  I think not.

Allowance, tollerance are key words...

Do I like wolf whistlers?  Candidly, it makes me feel bad....not b/c I'm not confident, but to me, it's the lowest form of saying, "boy, would I like to jump your bones"  Would rather hear, "Missy, your a pretty, or beautiful woman, or I like your mind".  

Am I going to make a big stink over wolf whistlers? heck no?  But I always feel sorry for the guys wife, yanno?  I've worked construction, and there are numerous very decent, moral, kind and considerate men building roads and high rises.

Like everything else, there seems to always be some bad apples which doesn't or shouldn't label the entire world of construction workers, white collar workers, or a culture...

In my opinion, I can understand a concern and a disrespect these people might feel, surely, but today, it seems, so so many people are insulted way to easily...including me...so, perhaps that is something we should of all nations, cultures, try to work on.  Can we do it?

Sure we can...but the question is... Will we? Political Correctness in my opinion has become ridiculous...do I want to hurt anyone, or treat them with disrespect?  Absolutely not, but unfortunately I do offend people...unintentionally.  Can we say "everything within moderation?"  I really really wish we all could.  


Alicat
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33 posted 02-03-2006 09:54 AM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

It's a double standard, plain and simple.  Arab/Muslim newspapers have no qualms at all depicting Christians or Jews in very negative editorial cartoons, or even cartoons for entertainment.  This includes prophets not listed in the Koran, Christ, God, YHWH, the Bible, the Torah, Jews as a people/nation and practitioners of those faiths.  But if anyone depicts jihadists, Mohammed, Allah, any of the Caliphs, practitioners of Islam, or any segment from the Koran in a negative light for editorial/entertainment, all hell breaks loose.

If Muslims want complete respect for their faith, they're going to have to give complete respect to other faiths.  What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
LeeJ
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34 posted 02-03-2006 10:48 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

agree with ya totally ali
Grinch
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35 posted 02-03-2006 12:36 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Ron,

“Actually, Grinch, it's more like women labeling all men the same as they now label the wolf-whistlers and players.”

I stand corrected


RSWells
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36 posted 02-03-2006 02:36 PM       View Profile for RSWells   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for RSWells

Talk about Theatre of the Absurd! Seems a cartoon might be the pretense for the WWIII/crusades fundies of christianity and islam have been itching for (with the more severe followers of judaism cheering from the position of a bad referee).

Fires everywhere!
Huan Yi
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37 posted 02-03-2006 07:20 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Alicat,

But whose double standard is it?
What if they mock Christianity and see in response
that Christians still buy their oil pouring billions into their coffers?
Could they not see that as a sign of weakness, a lack of religious sincerity,
indeed evidence as to Christianity’s lack of merit.  If so, why then should
they being Moslems devoted to their god and prophet want,
much less seek, to respond to insults with similar docility?

I wonder what the response would be if Martin Luther King
were caricatured and lampooned, (what if there was a cartoon
with him saying “ I have a dream” as he was leering
at a bevy of cheerleaders).  

It may be wrong, certainly unpleasant, but don’t forget you
are dealing with people willing to die for their religion.


John

Brad
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38 posted 02-05-2006 01:53 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

http://www.slate.com/id/2135499/

quote:
I refuse to be spoken to in that tone of voice, which as it happens I chance to find "offensive." ( By the way, hasn't the word "offensive" become really offensive lately?) The innate human revulsion against desecration is much older than any monotheism: Its most powerful expression is in the Antigone of Sophocles. It belongs to civilization. I am not asking for the right to slaughter a pig in a synagogue or mosque or to relieve myself on a "holy" book. But I will not be told I can't eat pork, and I will not respect those who burn books on a regular basis. I, too, have strong convictions and beliefs, and value the Enlightenment above any priesthood or any sacred fetish-object. It is revolting to me to breathe the same air as wafts from the exhalations of the madrasahs, or the reeking fumes of the suicide-murderers, or the sermons of Billy Graham and Joseph Ratzinger. But these same principles of mine also prevent me from wreaking random violence on the nearest church, or kidnapping a Muslim at random and holding him hostage, or violating diplomatic immunity by attacking the embassy or the envoys of even the most despotic Islamic state, or making a moronic spectacle of myself threatening blood and fire to faraway individuals who may have hurt my feelings. The babyish rumor-fueled tantrums that erupt all the time, especially in the Islamic world, show yet again that faith belongs to the spoiled and selfish childhood of our species.


--Hitchens

Not asking you to agree with this, but . . . .

Huan Yi
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39 posted 02-05-2006 02:01 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


It seems that the Christian notion of
turning the other cheek
is the ideal here.

"I am not asking for the right to slaughter a pig in a synagogue or mosque or to relieve myself on a "holy" book."

Yet isn't depicting Mohamed as a terrorist,
(as would depicting Christ as a pedophile),
something akin to that?

Essorant
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40 posted 02-05-2006 10:08 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"If Muslims want complete respect for their faith, they're going to have to give complete respect to other faiths.  What's good for the goose is good for the gander. "

I can't agree with you here Alicat.  

I think that if someone is disrespectful to our religions that is most when we ought to be respectful back to theirs, show the better example, and not align ourself to the foul manner of disrespecting something as personal as a religion.    That is his or her manner.  Let us keep our manner: respect, despite disrespect. No matter how people ever do wrong to our religions, we should always do right to their religions.  Someday they will learn from our respect, and if they don't then at least we didn't stoop to their disrespect.

jbouder
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41 posted 02-06-2006 04:44 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Brad:

I wish I could say that Hitchens' view is overly pessimistic, but ...

I'm just not convinced that a myopic look at fascism's religious face does justice to the real problem.  Fascism can be either philosophically or religiously driven (e.g., Nazi or Islamo-fascist).  I suppose the question I'd like answered (and one Hitchens doesn't seem to aswer) is whether religious fundamentalism is the symptom or the disease.

Jim
Alicat
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42 posted 02-08-2006 07:21 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

There are a few things which confuse me about the Muslim response in Lebanon, Syria, Iran and Gaza.  First off, such massive activity in Iran or Syria could not happen period without government sanction.  Add to that the Lebanese government blaming the rioting and destruction there on Syrian intelligence officers who didn't leave when the Syrian military did.  Lastly, and this is the most perplexing for me, how in the blue blazes did Gaza get all those Danish flags?  Do they have warehouses stockpiled with nation flags for burning or something?  The rioters and flag burners might have to get really creative if Lichtenstein does something offensive to the radical Muslim world.
Brad
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43 posted 02-09-2006 06:05 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Jim,

It's a good question. Probably worth another shot in philosophy.

How about an abolutist mind set combined with textual interpretation?

Oh and throw in a sense of injustice?

Ron
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44 posted 02-09-2006 08:08 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
First off, such massive activity in Iran or Syria could not happen period without government sanction.

How old were you in 1964, Ali?

"In the seven years following the Rochester riots, more than 750 race riots erupted in numerous American cities, leaving over 200 dead, injuring nearly 13,000 and leaving many African American urban neighborhoods in ruins."

Timeline
Alicat
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45 posted 02-10-2006 10:05 AM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

In 1964, I wasn't even a wink in my daddy's eye. *chuckle* B. 1970.  However, after the Iranian revolution in the mid 1970's, culminating in the American embassy hostage standoff during Carter's presidency, Iran has been ruled by the clerics supported by the military.  There, demonstrating againt the Great Satan (USA) is fine and patriotic.  Demonstrating against the hardline Iranian clerics is a quick way to vanish from society.
Huan Yi
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46 posted 02-12-2006 12:31 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


"Now in the West insulting the prophet is allowed, but questioning the Holocaust is considered a crime," he said. "We ask, why do you insult the prophet? The response is that it is a matter of freedom, while in fact they (who insult the founder of Islam) are hostages of the Zionists. And the people of the U.S. and Europe should pay a heavy price for becoming hostages to Zionists."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,184583,00.html


Well, . . . I’m glad somebody cleared up the confusion.

LeeJ
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47 posted 02-14-2006 01:17 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

ok, this is getting absolutely ridiculous
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,184780,00.html

my oh my!!!!

[This message has been edited by LeeJ (02-14-2006 02:56 PM).]

Alicat
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48 posted 02-16-2006 10:11 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

It came to my attention that the Danish political cartoons featuring Allah and Mohammed were inititially published in September, 2005.  5 months ago.  I guess things were getting a bit too quite on the Radical Islamic front, so they went digging for some inflammatory material (alongside sufficient Danish flags) to keep the masses protesting and demonstrating 'outsiders' instead of thinking about why they live in jobless poverty when the 'insider' clerics telling them how to live do so in relative opulence.
LeeJ
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49 posted 02-17-2006 06:26 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Ali, can't help shaking my head in saddness at the idiotic behavior of the human race...it's very sad, and very scary?  To me anyway.
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