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Movement in the US

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Balladeer
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50 posted 12-11-2005 05:59 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Our constitution, as well as our country, was based on Christian beliefs and values. All of the quotes and proof of that has been displayed in another thread. As far as violating the spirit of the Constitution, I contend that the spirit of the Constitution as far as the separation of church and state is concerned was created to insure that the United States would not be run like the government and the Church of England they had broken away from. I can't speak for the gentlemen but I'd bet Ron's net worth that, if they were seeing that their words were being interpreted to mean no one could use the phrase "under God" or sing Christmas carols in school plays or no student to offer another a candy cane, which could be interpreted to refer to the suffering of Christ...they would be rolling over in their graves.

Carroling is not part of a school's curriculum, that I'm aware of. They are sung in school pageants or plays.

If you have seen no movement other than commercial then you have not read these threads, read newspapers or watched television in quite some time....and, yes, percentages do matter, as I'm sure the city councilmen of Boston will find out when their next bid for re-election comes around........
Denise
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51 posted 12-11-2005 08:43 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

You forgot to mention the other reason why we are a republic and not a pure democracy, majnu. It is not only to attempt to prevent mob rule by the majority, it is also to attempt to prevent tyranny by the minority.

It never ceases to amaze me that the group that espouses tolerance for just about everyone and everything under the sun has absolutely none for people of faith, particularly towards Christians and Jews. They are so blinded by their ideology that they cannot even see their own hypocrisy, it seems to me. It also seems to me that most of these people believe in nothing and cannot tolerate expressions of belief by others.

No, saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas is not a big deal, when it is synonomous with the season, 'including' Christmas and not 'instead of' Christmas. The big deal is the attempted disrespect of another group's traditions and beliefs under the pretext of not wanting to hurt anyone else's feelings. What, are these people two-year-olds? They need to grow up, in my opinion. The ones who attempt to change the terminology say that the terminology is no big deal. Then just leave it the way it always has been for centuries if it's no big deal.

And it doesn't matter when the actual birth date of Christ was. A little respect and tolerance should be shown for the celebration of the day that was selected by the vast majority of Christendom to honor the event, even if it coincides with the time that the Winter Solstice is celebrated, and despite the fact that the celebration of the Winter Solstice came first, just as respect is shown by Christians for other's holy days and holidays. They are more than welcome to join in the celebration with us, or celebrate this time of year in their own way, to their own liking, infusing it with their own meaning, just as Christians did with the Winter Solstice. What they don't have the right to do is to attempt to divorce the season from its Christian, traditional meaning in our culture just because they don't like it.

To the Christian the Christmas Tree, an evergreen, represents the eternal life of Christ. It also represents the privilege God gives us to partake of the Tree of Life. It is irrelevant what it may have originally meant to the pagans.

To the Christian the lights on the tree represent Christ as the Light of the World. It is irrelevant what it may have originally meant to the pagans.

To the Christian the gift giving is symbolic of the gift bestowed on us by God through Christ, and an expression of our love for one another. It is irrelevant what it may have originally meant to the pagans.

And it is not unconstitutional to celebrate and express one's faith in the public square. It is unconstitutional to prohibit that expression.
majnu
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52 posted 12-11-2005 09:14 PM       View Profile for majnu   Email majnu   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for majnu

balladeer you forget your history.

our constitution is not based mainly on christianity. it is based mainly on hobbes, locke, and rousseau (whose name i often misspell) but it has many other influences besides.

whether or not the founders would agree with the complete removal of religion from government is irrelevant. they probably would not have agreed with the abolition of the slaves and the prevention of states from seceeding either, or perhaps women's suffrage.

as for a movement, if you are referring to examples such as your post about the christmas tree in mass - well, it is only right.

i find it funny that people harrass other countries for mixing religion in government but try to make exceptions for the US. as we have seen with free speech, privacy issues, and discrimination, an inch is a mile. an you especially sir, who seem senior enough to perhaps remember mccarthyism should know this.

if we do not actively seek to keep religion out of government it will creep in, and truly how far is it from christmas carols to inquisitions. if we stand on principle we cannot make exceptions.


as for denise,

the tyranny of the minority that is spoken of is referring to nobles, oligarchs etc. not groups like the jewish, muslim, or other religios minority. furthermore, a republic does not guard against a tyranny of the minority - rome was a republic and a selection of oligarchs ruled it with iron fists.

"it never ceases to amaze me that the group..." which group?

i never said it was unconstitutional to celebrate one's faith in a public square. what is wrong is for the government to grant a special distinction to the celebration of one faith as opposed to all others.

-majnu
--------------------------------------
Timid thoughts be not afraid. I am a Poet.

Denise
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53 posted 12-11-2005 09:33 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

We haven't had a problem in over two hundred years with a church becoming one with the state, despite the lack of the level of 'vigilance' that we see today.

Tyranny of the minority can refer to any minority group imposing its will on the majority. I didn't specify any group in particular.

What group? The group that wants to impose its will on the majority.

Rome's republic failed in part for that reason.

Balladeer hasn't forgotten his history. He just hasn't rewritten it, as seems to be the fashion of the day for some.

No one religion is receiving special distinction. All are welcome to express themselves.

Balladeer
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54 posted 12-12-2005 12:19 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

How far is it from Christmas carols to inquisitions? Farther than you will ever be able to see, fellow poet. True, alarmists can be eager to take a small action and projecting it to an armaggedonistic result but carols have been around for a couple of centuries and I haven't seen any indications of inquisitions lately. No, an inch is not a mile - an inch is an inch.

Actually, I do remember my first grade teacher mentioning mccarthyism...that was the fellow screaming something about the "menace that would destroy the country if not exposed and taken care of....an excellent example. I believe those who would claim that carols in school plays would lead to inquisitions one day would have that same McCarthistic outlook.

what is wrong is for the government to grant a special distinction to the celebration of one faith as opposed to all others.

I haven't seen that happening...have you? I've never seen a school or public area that acknowledged Christmas denying acknowledgement of other faiths. I have not seen a school or shopping center that would allow a Christmas decoration not allow a menorah. The country allows for all faiths and does not stifle the celebration of any that I'm aware of.

our constitution is not based mainly on christianity.

Ok, one evening when it is not so late I will dig up all of the quotes of our founders that negate that statement since you are apparrently unaware of them. They have been listed here before.

I am not as afraid of "Silent Night" being sung by a school choir being dangerous to our country as I am of anyone who would say that Christmas, or any other religion, is nuts.
Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea


55 posted 12-12-2005 02:17 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

It's all nuts.

majnu
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56 posted 12-12-2005 02:53 AM       View Profile for majnu   Email majnu   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for majnu

balladeer,

you do not know me sir, so i will forgive you for caling me an alarmist. i am far from it.

those who say that christianity in america is under seige as the originator of this thread suggests are the alarmists.

i am simply espoused of the idea that all remnants of religion in government must be eradicated.

as for an inch versus a mile. well, here we simply disagree. i say that if one is to stand on principle then there can be no exceptions. you would have degrees.

i believe you willfully misinterpret me on two accounts.

first, my reference to mccarthyism was meant to illustrate the idea of an inch and a mile. those who wanted to root out communism and "anti-americanism" were given an inch and it led to a mile over time. just take a look at their lists and the way people used the red-baiting against one another.

second,

-------------
what is wrong is for the government to grant a special distinction to the celebration of one faith as opposed to all others.

I haven't seen that happening...have you? I've never seen a school or public area that acknowledged Christmas denying acknowledgement of other faiths. I have not seen a school or shopping center that would allow a Christmas decoration not allow a menorah. The country allows for all faiths and does not stifle the celebration of any that I'm aware of.
--------------
well, if children are given the assignment of making shoebox nativity scenes in public schools, i definitely see that as the government giving distinction to one religion over another. why then not make a shoebox scene for every jewish, muslim, hindu, buddhist, taoist, etc. holiday. to not do so would be tacitly sending a message of preferring christianity to all other religions. i dealt with many examples of this growing up. you say you did not, perhaps, since you seem to be in the general mainstream, you just did not notice.

and as for the founding fathers, well, you can quote anything and everything you want. the proof is in the pudding.

if you go and read H,L and R and the republic, and you then look at the original articles you will see what excellent paraphrases those men were. they were not innovators, they were extremely wise choosers.



-majnu
--------------------------------------
Timid thoughts be not afraid. I am a Poet.
Balladeer
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57 posted 12-12-2005 08:05 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

i am simply espoused of the idea that all remnants of religion in government must be eradicated.


Well, sir, then I would say your work is cut out for you. We must also eliminate St. Valentine's day, which has a saint as its figurehead. Then we must also eliminate Thanksgiving, in which the settlers gave thanks to God. Easter? God forbid! No bunny decorations or colored eggs can be allowed in any school. True, they themselves are not religious figures but they are part of a holidays that is so they are equally tainted. Then, of course, we need to eliminate the "In God we trust" from the money. Congress has  retained paid (Christian) chaplains since 1789 to open sessions with prayer and to provide spiritual guidance to members and their staffs upon request...need to stop that. At the back of the Supreme Court building there is a sculpture of Moses holding two tablets. They say that Moses is represented as a lawgiver only and that the tablets are actually blank so it cannot be claimed that they are in actuality the Ten Commandments but come on now...Moses holding up two tablets in the same shape as every representation ever seen of the commandments? Way too suggestive of religious connotations, wouldn't you say? Christmans and Easter are federal holidays - need to eliminate that. Believe me...the list could go on and on.....

well, if children are given the assignment of making shoebox nativity scenes in public schools

You give yourself an out with making your example hypothetical. You do not claim that this happens and I tell you that I certainly never saw it during my educational career. If we are to throw up hypothetical situations to validate our thoughts then we've lost reason.

i say that if one is to stand on principle then there can be no exceptions. you would have degrees.

I have to ask - and sincerely, because it is really not clear to me - which principle you refer to....not just the words but the principle behind the words. Do you claim that all principles are absolutes? Principles that were created by man? What makes them absolutes. You give excellent examples pointing out slavery and suffrage. There are many so-called principles that have not stood up with the passage of time and to take a document written over two centuries ago and attempt to apply it word for word to today would be foolish, i think. There are people who want to read what suits them into the words of our fathers. That's how seperation of church and state translates into no Christmas carols in school plays. That's how right to bear arms translates into being able to carry around AK-47s or automatic sub-machine guns. That is why there are amendments to the Constitution. If one were to state that everything the founding fathers put in the constitution were principles then you would have to be against any change or amendments, by your definition.

Treating constitutional words as being "etched in stone" would liken them to....well, the Ten Commandments  
majnu
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58 posted 12-12-2005 10:58 PM       View Profile for majnu   Email majnu   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for majnu

1) yes. well sure it is a long road but so what.

2) again, you willfully misinterpret me. i specifically said that i dealt with many sich examples growing up, including the one i describe. it is not hypothetical. if i had not cleaned out my room when i left for college i could have mailed you damn thing.

3) the principle i refer is the complete separation from church and state. the complete separation from the idea that some divine laws should govern all humans. we cannot agree on those laws as a race, so we must agree on ones that we can enforce and give good reason for without reference to metaphysics.

as for stone, i have a gift a friend gave me for graduation with some choice words etched in it. how about i liken those to the ten commandments.

-majnu
--------------------------------------
Timid thoughts be not afraid. I am a Poet.

Balladeer
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59 posted 12-13-2005 12:13 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

My apologies then. When you said you dealt with many examples of this growing up I did not presume you were referring to shoebox nativity scenes....my mistake.
LeeJ
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Posts 13093
SE PA


60 posted 12-13-2005 08:34 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

anyone, in my mind, can kneel down and pray to their God in the street if they like, or play their traditional music, or refer to holidays as theirs...but in the same, I'm only asking that people show us the same respect for our views and beliefs...I don't want to take anything away from anyone...if you or your children are offended by prayer, then don't listen...but, in the same, don't take our beliefs away from us, simply because you don't believe...and I'm not referring to anyone who has been kind enough to contribute their thougthts in this thread...I'm referring to the whole nation...
we are the People, and we need to remember, to be more respectful of one another...regardless the word...the words are my belief..., the Christmas pagents in schools are tradition...if a parent prefers their child not participate, then that should be respected, but, in the same, don't take the pagent away, or the words away, or the 10 commandments off the walls...and if you want to chant, speak in tongues, or not believe at all, so be it...but don't take away my spiritual belief is what I'm trying to impress and preserve.  And yes, I know, those beliefs are still out there and practiced...but, in the same, there are people who are trying to take it away.  If we're a diverse nation, and a diverse workplace, then no one has the right to correct my verbage as long as I'm not being disrestful or vulgar.  And my belief is certainly not vulgar.  You say Holiday, I say Christmas...again, some like vanilla, some like chocolate...just b/c you feel one way and I feel another, doesn't say, your right and I'm wrong, and I'm not saying I'm right and your wrong in your belief...just allow me mine, yanno?

serenity blaze
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61 posted 12-13-2005 08:44 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Does anybody else find it a little ironic that while arguing over the terminology, the point of the season is being missed?

I'm gonna go peace out m'self.
LeeJ
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SE PA


62 posted 12-13-2005 09:34 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Serenity, I'm not arguing, as I love these forums and the opportunity to express...though I can't speak for anyone else, but, I hate it when you do that...cuz I want to continue to hear what everyone has to say....but when you do that, it stops anyone from contributing more, even if they are arguing...

Do you hate me for saying that?

Hope not.....

serenity blaze
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63 posted 12-13-2005 09:42 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Hate you?

oh Lee...

I'm sitting here trying to think of one person I hate and can't think of one.

No way, you! c'mere...

serenity blaze
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64 posted 12-13-2005 09:49 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I thought of one!

I'm not sure if I hate him though, as that's a strong word, but I find Tom Benson pretty annoying these days...
Balladeer
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65 posted 12-13-2005 10:17 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

You can join me in celebrating the birthday of the Prince of peace and love or else!

serenity blaze
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66 posted 12-13-2005 10:20 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

*laughing*

Mercy, Master!

(I think we've both had enough of that rain and thunder guy.)



A bit of sunshine is good. He said, I am the light, right?
LeeJ
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since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


67 posted 12-13-2005 11:20 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

hehehehe, you both are way to cool...

Serenty, polize, people will talk yanno?

(referring to your co'mere comment) hehe
Deer...???? I thought HE didn't give altamatiums?  is that how you spell it?



Our God, is a very very very nice God...with two cats in the yard....

majnu
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68 posted 12-18-2005 02:24 AM       View Profile for majnu   Email majnu   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for majnu

so now you are the thunderer?!

-majnu
--------------------------------------
Timid thoughts be not afraid. I am a Poet.

 
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