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LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
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25 posted 12-06-2005 09:17 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

darlin MartyJo, thank you for understanding...I don't believe any religion is people friendly, I think they all own they're own human changes, from the beginning of time...I don't believe any human being on the face of this earth, ever knew it all, or translated it all perfectly, if that were true, there wouldn't be so so many questions....but, that is my own personal belief, of which I'm certainly not trying to jam down anyone else's throat...I don't believe religion is nearly as important as faith...allowance and peace...first within oneself, then whirling out and around others...allowance is a key...as well as, living one's life by example, as a good citizen of the community as a whole.


Thanks MartyJo  thanks a bunch....

[This message has been edited by LeeJ (12-06-2005 10:56 AM).]

latearrival
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since 03-21-2003
Posts 4407
Florida


26 posted 12-06-2005 09:31 AM       View Profile for latearrival   Email latearrival   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for latearrival

Lee, I tend to agree with you.I told you all I took an elderly friend to her Catholic church  every sunday for over a year because it was important to her. It does not matter where I check in with God. He is supposed to be within us. I would still be taking her but for Jackie's accident. She had to find another to take her. Now the poor lady is not working. She worked until the last day of october and is 88 years old. Although she thinks no one knows that.LOL   best to you Lee, martyjo
serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
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27 posted 12-06-2005 11:25 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Lest you think I have total lack of sympathy for your viewpoint Lee, I'll tell you a different story. I used to work for the state, in the pharmacy services section of DHHR. (Yeah, I know, and my sister, twist, worked for food and drug control at the same time, and YES, we understood how funny that was *grin*)

But it was my habit to put the book I was reading on my desk, along with lunch if I'd brought it that day. One day my chosen book happened to be the Bible.

I had to remove the Bible. I was incredulous to learn that it was against the rules that I had um, "read" and signed stating that I understood, the day that I was hired.

But that is the law, and oh I was furious at first too.

(I also couldn't wear campaign buttons or endorse a candidate by having a sign on my front lawn either.)

But yanno? I understood the reasoning when my boss took me to lunch and explained.

I understood completely the separation of church and state issue. But the campaign buttons? Why...who knew there was cronyism in Louisiana politics?

hugs back atcha LeeJ!

LeeJ
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since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
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28 posted 12-06-2005 12:26 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Karen!!!!

CRONYISM IN POLITICS????? NAHHHHHHHHH!

WAIT...YOU mean like wall street and corporate america?  

Ron
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since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


29 posted 12-06-2005 12:43 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
As far as my job is concerned, Ron, I disagree with you, again, if we are supposed to be diverse, then, I should be allowed to refrence the holiday as I please, according to my own personal culture, conditioning and upbringing.

You can, Lee. It's still entirely your choice and, indeed, if you are to have the courage of your convictions, I would recommend doing exactly that. Just be willing to accept the consequences, because you are NOT the only one with the right to do what they feel is best for them. I suspect your employer will exercise his right to run HIS business the way he wants.

Don't confuse diversity with anarchy. When you make the sacrifices your employer has made, and accept the risks he takes every day, then you get to call the shots. You can even, if you wish, tell all your employees to never, ever use the word holiday again because it offends you. Of course, it will still be up to them whether they are willing to accept your dictates or find themselves another job.

quote:
If we are supposed to be a diverse nation, then, why comply and take what was there and worked for me and many others for so many years, away...isn't that an infringement on my belief, and the belief of many others?

How 'bout 'cause it's the right thing to do, Lee?

Slavery worked for a good many people for a good many years, but that didn't mean it should be continued. Forcing people to sit in the back of the bus worked for even longer, but that never made it right. You may think this is an off-the-wall analogy, Lee, but what you're really arguing is that the desires of the majority should be imposed on the minority, and sorry, but that's the same argument I heard through most of the Sixties, too.

quote:
Yes, there are still Christain Radio Stations that play the old fashioned Christmas songs..., but others are getting away from such ...

Lee, there are many, many, many radio stations that play traditional Christmas songs, and not just the Christian stations, either. But that's not enough for you? You think everyone, every radio station, every newspaper, every TV channel should be forced to do what YOU want rather than what they want? I would think you'd find that a little hard to justify, even to yourself.

quote:
I wanted my son and want my grand-daughter to be able to pray the Lords Prayer and say the Pledge of Allegiance in School, b/c it is part of my culture.  I believe, and this is simply my belief...that a little guidence in morals, and belief can be a good thing ...

And there, Lee, is the whole problem in a nutshell.

You don't have any right to provide moral guidance to MY children and grand-children.

We're like a lot of small families living in a huge old house, Lee. What you do in your own room is entirely your business, and if you want to run around butt-naked in front of your own kids, I think you are entirely within your rights to do so. When you walk in the living room, though, in front of MY kids, your rights have to be adjusted to mesh with my own. I promise I won't tell your kid to get a haircut if you'll just promise to keep your tush covered when you leave your room. The parts of the house we have to share, like the schools and public buildings we both pay to maintain, are necessarily places of compromise. You don't get to send your kids to school naked, even if that's part of your culture, and you certainly don't get to tell MY kids they should go naked, too.

Providing moral guidance to my family is my job, Lee, not yours.

quote:
The school is the first place a child goes to to participate in society. Their circles of interaction up to that point have been with parents, relatives or perhaps neighbors.....but, in school they are finally in a situation where they interact with other small beings their own age. That is their first introduction to society as we know it.

Part of the problem, Michael, is that you're right. But first . . .

. . . I would like to clarify something.

Those who no longer believe in a separation of church and state seem to think those who do are somehow concerned about offending others. I can only speak personally, but for me, nothing could be farther from the truth. I have several Jewish friends at the University where I taught, at least one Muslim of which I'm aware, and a whole raft of agnostics or atheists, all of whom will be sent Christmas cards and well wishes this year.

I don't apologize for my beliefs and I never worry whether practicing those beliefs will offend or even antagonize anyone.

However, I also don't stand in front of a classroom and preach on the taxpayer's dollar. Not directly and not even indirectly as would certainly be the case if I continuously referenced my religion or my God. Those students didn't pay their money to hear me preach, and their parents and families didn't pay their taxes so I would have a government sponsored pulpit. I don't abstain because I'm worried about offending anyone, Michael. I abstain because ten years from now, many of those students in front of me are going to be standing in front of their own classrooms, teaching our grandchildren and great-grandchildren.

I abstain today in fervent hope they will abstain tomorrow.

Separation of church and state isn't about fear of giving offence. It's about protecting everyone's right to worship in their own way. Sure, that means protecting the Jews and Muslims and Hindus from the Christians, but it also means protecting the Christians from the Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and especially from the other Christians.

You're right, Michael, the majority of five-year-olds entering the school system have no prior experience in that kind of social setting. Their parents probably only went to church on Easter and Christmas, if that, and the kids never had the opportunity to attend Sunday School two or three days a week, where they certainly would have been introduced to much the same kind of social interaction they would later discover in the public school system. I sympathize with those kids, Michael, as they watch Mommy say Merry Christmas to neighbor George, only to cuss out poor George as soon as he walks away because she thinks he was too lazy to shovel snow off his part of the shared sidewalk. I understand their confusion when they see Daddy hand the paperboy a small, brightly wrapped present, only to hear Daddy come home six hours later singing Christmas carols in a drunken stupor. I know their fear, too, when visiting Aunt Sally tells them they're going to burn in Hell some day. Of course, I'm probably exaggerating just a little . . . if only because nearly half those kids entering school at five probably only have one parent at home still setting bad examples for them.

Sorry, guys, but those just aren't the people I want teaching my kids and grand-kids the meaning of Christmas.

Again and again and yet again . . . that's my job, not yours, and certainly not theirs.


LeeJ
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since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
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30 posted 12-06-2005 01:11 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Ron
My son is bald, and so, I don't believe there's an issue with telling him to get a haircut, although upon getting his picture taken for his license, he told the gal who took it, he didn't like his hair, he was having a bad hair day and could he have it retaken?  hehehehhhee

Whoa, seriously Ron, so your actually saying, it's ok for other religious groups to take away my rights, but I cannot defend mine?  That is not diversity

Ron, if you don't want your children to pray, then ok...so don't pray...what is wrong with me praying while yours stands there and respects my religious beliefs?

Morals?  For instance, respect for anothers culture, belief, religion?  Respect for the teacher, and classmates, respect for another when they say no...understanding when someone is voicing their belief and lastly, allowance along with the maturity to do so.  

I'm not for taking advantage of the system or having it all.  There must be common ground...and fair is fair...I'm not asking for the world here...certainly do not expect the world to play traditional songs on all the stations....but there has been a decline due to this movement...

Ron, I really think your not understanding me, cuz your taking it all the way to the other end of the spectrum, which is not logical??????  I'm not understanding you?  Why are you thinking I'm an ogar who wants it all or no thing?

So what your saying is, its ok for them to do it to me, but I cannot voice my belief?  I respect your way of parenting and your voice on how you want your children raised, but hey, then you've gotta do the same by me?  It should be up to the individual, if they want to pray, read the ten commandments, listen, don't listen or turn it off, or say Holiday or Christmas.  There should be no group/workplace, employer in the U.S. that specifies which one I have to say.  I'm there to work, not win friends and influence people or play politics.  Saying Christmas certainly does not ascertain my work ethics, nor should it.    

Ron, how is that fair...??????

Lee, there are many, many, many radio stations that play traditional Christmas songs, and not just the Christian stations, either. But that's not enough for you? You think everyone, every radio station, every newspaper, every TV channel should be forced to do what YOU want rather than what they want? I would think you'd find that a little hard to justify, even to yourself.


Geeze Ron, NO I DON'T! I surely don't want it all... Where are you coming from with this comment, you don't even know me? ..I'm certainly not trying to monopolize the situation...nor do I think every radio station should play these songs....Ron, I don't even know if I can clarify myself a Christain?  As my beliefs are not what most Christains believe...but, NO NO No, your wrong and just a tad to condescending on this subject for my cup of tea....I'm trying to preserve what is being taken away...whats good for the goose, is also good for the Gozling, yanno?

I'm trying to stay neutral here?  and also find the humor in all of this...anyone who knows me, knows I'm diverse and will bend more then most?  And I understand your point of views, what I don't understand is why your taking total offense to my points of view that you feel like you've got to kick me when I'm down and still keep kicking me...
Wait...
I'll lay down for you...
ok,
your turn,
kick away


[This message has been edited by LeeJ (12-06-2005 02:01 PM).]

Balladeer
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31 posted 12-06-2005 04:41 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Lee, I think you know from my comments that i am basically on your side as far as this topic is concerned in many ways. There is something you should know, though, which took me quite a while to learn.

Ron is a thought-provoker. By that I mean he will, in these conversations, challenge viewpoints and show others as a means of getting everyone involved to think on a more open-minded level. That is not saying he doesn't mean what he says but he will show something in perspective from the other side's viewpoint, whether he champions it or not, if only to show that there is indeed another viewpoint to consider. His words are not attacks and he doesn't kick when one's down...he simply pushes one to consider all aspects of an argument or situation. Please don't take it personally becuase it's not.

Ron, forgive me for butting in as if I'm defending you, which you certainly don't need, but it's something not easily seen by another and, like I said, it took me some time to recognize it, too. By your constant arguing with me you forced me to do a lot more thinking and were probably sitting there smiling while I fumed. Hey, maybe you ARE evil!

latearrival
Member Elite
since 03-21-2003
Posts 4407
Florida


32 posted 12-06-2005 05:03 PM       View Profile for latearrival   Email latearrival   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for latearrival

Michael, I agree. Ron opens the doors for us to enter a space where we can more freely explore and sometimes find our way to a deeper voice which we never knew we had. He is a mind opener.
    Lee, You know this too, as you are a master of deep exploration. I think of you as a metaphysical giant with words and thoughts. What sifts through your mind is unequaled. I appreciate you, Ron and Michael among others. martyjo
Ron
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Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


33 posted 12-06-2005 05:25 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Oh, I'm definitely evil, Michael. I didn't realize, however, that I was predictable.  

Lee, Mike's right, I'm not attacking you so much as trying to get you to understand how you are attacking almost everyone who doesn't agree with you. And you're right, I don't know you, so I can only go by what you write on these pages. Almost everything you've written indicates you DO want it all, even if it is at the expense of others who want something else.

You want a radio station that plays traditional Christmas music? They're out there, dear, all you have to do is pick one. Instead, you seem to want to pick one and then force them to play what you want.

You want a store that still says Merry Christmas? Those are out there, too, Lee, and all you have to do is pick one. Instead, you seem to want to pick a store and then force them to say what you want them to say.

You want a job where you are free to say Merry Christmas? Come on out to Michigan and go to work for me instead of trying to force your employer to run his business to suit your desires.

You want your kids or grand-kids to be able to pray in school? Pony up the bucks and send them to one where all the parents and grandparents want the same thing.

No one has taken anything at all away from you, Lee, or anyone else. You just have to be willing to look for what you still very much have where it is instead of where it isn't.  


serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
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34 posted 12-06-2005 06:03 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

(raising my hand)

Um, Ron?

Can I come to Michigan and work for you?

LeeJ
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since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
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35 posted 12-07-2005 07:02 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

awwww shucks, I was hoping you'd know I was and am simply playing, trying to understand and learn...I love these open sessions...the challenge, and this ability to express.  

And yeah, they do seem to get somewhat heated at times, but that's ok, it's how a person should be, not compromise they're beliefs, but open themselves up to thought provoking issues.  

I was concerned that you thought I was strickly being one sided about this and sorry I came across like I don't possess understanding for the beliefs of others.  

I will admit to becoming upset though, when a woman at work corrected me and said, I can't say Christmas anymore and must refer to it as Holiday...and that's what has driven this thread the most...  

Ron, if you knew me, you'd know, I'm somewhat like Karen, owning a dry sense of humor & pretty tough skinned...I won't back down, and will keep drilling until I understand...and, this might be a good time to throw in an apology if I've offened anyone at anytime during this discussion....please know that I do like to be playful.

you haven't offended me in any way, nor have I taken your expressions as offensive or personal...I want to hear your ideas...beliefs, and personal convictions...you shouldn't compromise your identity, no one should.  

I never have been able to express myself in these forums well...people think I'm upset, and I'm not.

Love a good debate, and to joke around, but will ask questions as well.

I did feel at one point you were condiscending me, and perhaps that is that little old chip on my shoulder from past experience.  

Just wanted to know what it was I said that made you think I wanted it all?  Heck, I've got it all Ron, me needs nothing...hehehe  

Thank you Deer for your concern, that was good of you to come to Ron's defense...it shows courage, and I admire that...would love to have you in my corner sometime...

I need to obtain firm information to back up my articulations of issues going on I suppose? Not to mention, and let me warn you, I'm a very passionate speaker...

honestly, I did hear this on the radio the other day...and a culmination of other small issues prompted this thread.

***************************************************
Ron:  You want a job where you are free to say Merry Christmas? Come on out to Michigan and go to work for me instead of trying to force your employer to run his business to suit your desires.
****************************************************

I'd really prefer not to force anyone to run his business anyway, but I don't really and truly see, how I must be corrected for saying a word and then told I'm not allowed to say it?  I've been saying it for years and believing it for years? He can refer to it as he pleases and so can everyone else, ...but I was very offended at the thought of being corrected like I had said a swear word or something, when the woman said to me, shhhh, don't say Christmas, say Holiday...that is what I don't understand Ron, it's a word and has been my belief for years....you can say Holiday, I don't care, honest, but to correct me for my belief...Ron, I don't understand that...?  

Michigan?  Well, thanks a lot for the offer, hugs, but I'm a warm weather gal and plan to move south for retirement.  

P.S. Is it true, up in Michigan, when winter comes you guys must hook your cars up to some kind of batteries to keep them warm so they start up in the morning?  

Thanks Ron, for keeping me challenged and hopefully diverse...
Startime55
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since 04-05-2003
Posts 2182
Alberta, Canada


36 posted 12-08-2005 11:51 AM       View Profile for Startime55   Email Startime55   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Startime55

I just couldn't keep my mouth shut about this one....I'm with old fuddy duddy and long for the good old days when people were not offended so easily...I have nine grandchildren in all grade levels and live in what is considered a bible belt but over the last 5 years there has not been one christ-filled Christmas song in any of their "winter pagents" and believe me I have attended them all...as a matter of fact last year at my grandson's elementary pagent they spent the whole play proving that Santa was a fake and he was only 7 at the time....anyone who knows me knows how I love the magic in life so doing that to Santa hurt too....

Like it or not the reason we celebrate at this time of year has traditionally been because we celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ and it matters not if he was born at this time...what matters is that we, as christians, remember His birth and celebrate it....others who are non-christian have joined in celebrating for their own reasons and that is wonderful...just coming together in fellowship and love but it doesn't change the traditional facts....

I am starting to ramble....I have lived in many different places with different languages and beliefs and have always loved to participate in any cultural celebrations going on...I believe that Christmas is our cultural belief and should not be changed to suit others....

In my yard I demonstrate my belief by putting up a lifesize model of the Nativity adding to its size every year...this year we added a flock of lambs, one for each of our grandchildren....we also put a speaker outside and play all the traditional carols so anyone who wants to celebrated with us can enjoy them....

Thank you for starting this thread...we all have a right to express ourselves....I do not wish to offend anyone but I will celebrate my way and you may have yours....mutual respect would be appreciated when a cultural tradition such as Christmas is in Season....

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE
LeeJ
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since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
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37 posted 12-08-2005 01:01 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Thank you Startime, I agree with your every word

I'm not trying to take anything away from someone else, nor do I want it all...never did...and I'm not trying to insult anyone or take away their beliefs, I'm simply trying to preserve mine...but in this thread, seem to be stumbling all over my words I suppose?

no matter how you say it, doesn't offend me, no matter what you play on TV or the radio, doesn't offend me, and the children's plays should be a great example of the word tollerate, allow, overlook and not be so darn sensitive...and that is what offends me....when we've been practicing these pagan rituals for years...(I'm being playful)

When I'm told, I cannot say Christmas, no matter where I am or whose around.  This is what I'm talking about.  

I'm not offended by anyone who refers to it differently, but, in the same I'm asking those in this movement, to also be a little sensitive to my beliefs and allow me?  Is that wanting it all?
Is seeing children doing a play on the nativity a hazard or a disease?

and so I've returned with some evidence to back up my words....

Here's a little something to back up what I've been trying to explain,


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10297701/

http://bottradionetwork.com/station_kansasCity/kansasCity_iss.asp[/URL]


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6396-2004Dec16.html[/URL]


Now, if anyone comes back in here and tells me there isn't a Santa Clause....

http://freebiesandstuff.freeyellow.com/christmas/santa-claus.html[/URL]

and I've mustarded up a little more courage, with the help of Startime to say this...Christmas, had started to become, a very overwhelming holiday for me...and I never knew why until later on in life.
It's the hustle and bustle of shopping...my son and I were talking the other day, and he said, Mom, if you don't return a gift to people they are hurt, or insulted...I said, tough...it's not about giving gifts...and he knows that, and agree, but added, it's the way they make you feel, and their expectaions, yanno?...

I love a great celebration as much as the next person, but at work, the parties & lunches are way out of hand...

Your expected to attend, even if, it is not on company time...and I really resent that.

First of all, on most of the lunches we have to split the bill, and if you must attend 3 or 4, that can get pretty costly.  

Then it is the expected gifts for the boss, and for his boss, and other secretaries and the polyannas, and then theres those few who you choose to buy a little something for, yanno?  

When I gracefully bowed out of several lunches over the years, I was told I wasn't a team player?  

How can my lunch hour, which is supposed to be my free time, of which I'm allowed to spend any way I'd like, dictate as my work ethics?

Now if it's a working lunch, then I must attend and will...but Startime, I agree, it's gotten way out of hand...and I'm afraid people are slowly forgetting the pressure they're putting on others...simply b/c of expectations.

Thanks for chimming in....

[This message has been edited by LeeJ (12-08-2005 01:47 PM).]

Startime55
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Alberta, Canada


38 posted 12-08-2005 01:27 PM       View Profile for Startime55   Email Startime55   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Startime55

LOL...How absolutely perfect...I love the story of the Secret Santa because this year I have been teaching my grandchildren how to do just that....we put together a basket of goodies and found a family that needed it...they had a trilling time delivering it in the early darkness of morning....I told them they were playing pixie to someone and that it is something they can do year round and is always filled with the spirit of Christmas....

I am one of those grandmothers who loves to keep magical things alive in the hearts of my grandchildren....Thank you, so much, Lee for having a heart that loves Christmas and Christ so much that you shout it from the rooftops....**BIG BIG HUGS** Christmas time it is and I will work hard to make sure another generation loves all the traditions that comes with it....
LeeJ
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since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


39 posted 12-08-2005 01:40 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

don't forget those Santa roll out cookies, right?

Home baked pudding, and all those painting in my mind from Life Magazine...and the infamous "Christmas Story"!

Hey, did you see Polar Express, wonderful story for children...

hugs rightbackatcha
Mistletoe Angel
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40 posted 12-08-2005 02:00 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



Lee, I'm absolutely glad you've shared these links with us so we can have a deeper understanding of where you're coming from, along with many other Americans who indeed face these experiences of holiday erodings, which I do agree are happening in a number of communities nationwide.

I must add, however, that the tone in the third link you've shared is precisely the main problem I have with those trying to illuminate the problem; there's some who make the critical mistake of going at or even demonizing other faiths when trying to argue that in a nation with an obviously large Christian minority, yet also a melting pot, why Christmas should be preserved in its traditional values and goes at Hanukkah. There are those like Krauthammer who take a wonderful argument and contaminate it in suggesting Jews are behind the blueprint of despiritualizing Christmas, and others suggest liberals are behind it, other faiths, etc, and also spend a good deal of time trying to show how another tradition is of little importance when sizing it up to Christmas. I'm a Christian, but I have Jewish friends and even Jewish family members and I also value their rights to celebrate their traditions without being interferred with. I'm positively sure that a vast majority of all those groups I mentioned do not endorse such actions, and it's a very tiny percentage of Americans who truly are the anti-Christmas Ebenezers, which are not necessarily part of any group, that exhibit this attitude in trying to strip Christmas of its true meaning.

*

The other point I wanted to make is, truly, parents are never lying when they encourage their children to believe in Santa Claus. Santa Claus IS real. The original Santa Claus was St. Nicholas himself. He was born in Lycia in the 4th century, who was a lovable man who became the patron saint of children because he loved them so much. He was also very charitable and this is known from Roman accounts during his time in patronage. He didn't have his sleigh, his signature red suit or Rudolph and his reindeer then, but he had his white beard, wore bishop's robes that were red and white, and through a feast of his own on December 6, a Christian feast day. Up until the sixteenth century, his spirit was praised all across Europe, and then when the Protestant banned him from many European countries, which he got replaced with secular ideals, the Dutch fell in love with him and called him their "protector of sails". He graced the design of the first Dutch ship that made it to America, the first church in New York City was named after him, and they offered Christmas items that would become symbols to the holiday tradition. And as for the stockings, in sixteenth-century Holland, instead of them at first, children placed wooden shoes filled with straw to feed St. Nick's donkey and in return the shoes would be filled with a small gift. America is where the stocking became used instead.

And his name? The Dutch spelled St. Nicholas "Sint Nikolass," which in the New World became "Sinterklass". later changed to "Santa Claus". America is where the spirit of Santa Claus would be illustrated deeper. Dr. Clement Clarke Moore's 1822 poem "The Night Before Christmas" was originally meant only to read to his children on Christmas Eve but a friend had sent his poem all across newspapers and his poem instantly became a classic, which is where the reindeer and the sleigh added to Santa's spirit. He also gained weight in illustration in America from a cartonnist named Thomas Nast, who published the cartoons all throughout Harper's Weekly magazine until 1886, revealing the shift from a thinner to a bigger Santa, also mentioning Santa makes toys all year at the North Pole and monitoring children's behavior for them to be rewarded. All of this evolved in America to add to this beautiful holiday, along with the elves, the magic, and so much more!

*

Thanks for this wonderful thread, Lee!

Love,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

LeeJ
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41 posted 12-08-2005 02:56 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

hugs to you Noah

yanno what has always stumped me....

no matter what the religion or tradition, how can one, absolutely believe, that theirs is the truth, when they're have been so many man made rules come into play, be it religion or tradition, we all need to be a lot less sensitive about political correctness...it's an absolute insult to the intelligence of man...I think and not take all this stuff so personal, I mean, we know when someone's being down right critical, mean, rude and a biggot, do we not.  And so, why not let each other alone when it comes to their beliefs and words describing their beliefs?
latearrival
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42 posted 12-08-2005 05:46 PM       View Profile for latearrival   Email latearrival   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for latearrival

Lee, I am confused.If your boss does not want Religion in the work place why the christmas parties and gift to the boss? I would not chip in. Did I read something wrong. martyjo
iliana
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43 posted 12-09-2005 01:00 AM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

LeeJ, I understand where you are coming from and I have to agree.  I miss the good old days, too.  I do believe there is an assault, particularly on mentioning the "Christ" word.  I know that here in Houston for the past 10 years or so, public schools here have not permitted any Christian songs sung at choir or played at band or orchestra concerts.  However, on the other hand, there have been secular songs of all nationalities to celebrate the holidays and I have heard Jewish Hanukkah played.  Hard to believe that would be the case here in the Bible Belt, but that is the truth of it!  This particularly aggravated me since some of the most beautiful music (and historic) has come out of Christianity.  Even my daughter's Jewish voice teacher (when she was in high school) taught her German/Christian composed music for the value of it.  

Most of the religions in our nation respect each other.  The war here is not between the religions but rather between those who wish to express their beliefs and secularists, or those with no beliefs.  Secularists have rights, too, but I thought our freedom of speech rights were intact as long as they did not infringe upon the rights of others!  I do not see what the harm is to secularists if we express our beliefs.  

If the wish is from a capitalistic standpoint to greet people coming into WalMart with "Happy Holiday" instead of "Merry Christmas" that does not bother me, as as a greeter you might not know what particular holiday is being celebrated by the person you are greeting.  When that greeter quits saying "Happy Holiday" we'd better really start worrying.  Happy Holidays is all-inclusive....that doesn't bother me.  

But when a little boy in Texas gets kicked out of school for passing out candy canes because they represent Christ's suffering, that is just plain wrong.  Times are changing.  I can remember a time when prayer was always said before football games, right there along with the playing of the Star Spangled Banner. That sure doesn't happen anymore in most places and if they get caught, you can bet your booties, there will be a lawsuit to prohibit it from happening again, even here in the Bible Belt.  Prayer certainly does not offend Jews, Moslems or Christians, and I doubt seriously Budhists would complain, so the question you have to ask is does the majority rule here, or is it the minority who is changing the culture of this country.  I believe most religions respect each other....it is those without religion that don't want it shoved down their throats, and their rights should be protected.  The answer may be to take federal funding out of everything, particularly the school systems.  

And what would Jesus do?  I am sure he would not quit praying, that I'm sure of, and I suspect he would say that prayer is between you and God and not you and the football stadium.  He did say to render under God's what is God's and Ceasar what is Ceasar's...which I find a paradox in and of itself because what was Ceasar's is God's ultimately in my belief system.  But nonbelievers could construe that as meaning keeping church and state separate.  I think a distinction is necessary, but I don't think taking away the rights of believers is the answer.  What harm comes to the secularist when hearing Merry Christmas or Happy Hannakuh....I just don't get it....or if there is prayer before a football game....or if a little boy passes out candy canes to his classmates that have a description of the origin of the candy attached to it.  That little tag hanging onto the candy cane might be selling Christianity, but does that harm anyone, really?

Rather than being a religiously diversified nation, we have become a nation of religiously supressed people.  Everyone, including those who oppose religious holidays or displays, should have the right to express themselves.  Rather than changing the signs on city names to take the crosses off of them, they should make sure they have all religious symbols put on them....and those who don't have symbols (secularists, atheists, agnostics, etc.) should unite and create one of their own so that they are represented, too, I guess.  They have that right! <

Just my two cents.  
serenity blaze
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44 posted 12-09-2005 11:41 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I believe Jesus said "render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's."



On that note, I'd like to point out that even the vocally Christian George W. has sent out "Holiday" cards.

grin...not sure if that's a point for either side, actually.

(serenity ducks and runs--)
Startime55
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45 posted 12-09-2005 01:33 PM       View Profile for Startime55   Email Startime55   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Startime55

Serenity you are such a treasure....If only we could bottle the love in your heart we would finally have a truly loving world...**big hugs**
latearrival
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46 posted 12-09-2005 05:31 PM       View Profile for latearrival   Email latearrival   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for latearrival

I remember when George first ran, he said, "it was easy to raise money, just have your mother send out cards to every one on her CHRISTMAS list." And even as a registered Democrat I recieved one. Times do change and he blows with the wind. martyjo
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47 posted 12-09-2005 06:59 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

- from The Weekend Australian 10 Dec 2005
" In fact, the last presidential Christmas card to include the word Christmas was in 1992 - from George H.W. and Barbara Bush, parents of the incumbent."

So easy to be critical when one doesn't bother to look for facts....Merry Christmas!
latearrival
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48 posted 12-09-2005 09:57 PM       View Profile for latearrival   Email latearrival   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for latearrival

The card may not have said CHRISTMAS. But he said that about her Christmas list as a help to raise money for him. Help me find that phrase.I am positive I remember his saying that. thank you. martyjo
majnu
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49 posted 12-11-2005 05:07 PM       View Profile for majnu   Email majnu   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for majnu

i symapthize with your frustration at the commercial hijacking of a religious holy day (whence comes holiday). i very much like the fact that for eid we are recommended reasonable personal gifts by the quoran. and money is supposed to be of reasonable amounts meant to show care.

christmas is really nuts, especially the whole santa claus thing. but as a favorite prof. of mine would point out - its a pagan holiday anyway, Jesus was born sometime in Jan. so if you can't even get the day right... but then most institutionalized religions have made such compromises to convert people of other religions.

aside from the historical footnotes, I must take issue with two things you said, namely the bit about the schools.

it is perfectly correct for christmas carrols not to be sung as part of public schooling. if student organizations wish to do so than of course that is their right, but to expect carrolling and christmas teachings as part of curriculum, especially in elementary grade schooling is reprehensible. it violates the very spirit of the constitution which requires separation of church as state (the same reason I take issue with the pledge of allegiance).

second, what movement? the only movement i see is commercialization which is feuled by socio-economics and excellent advertising. what freedom of speech infringements are you talking about. were you told to say holidays around work? well if so maybe you had a jewish person working with you to whom merry christmas would mean nothing.

[Edited - Ron]

oh yeah, and for 'deer and anyone else who wants to cite percentages: the reason we are a republic and not a strict democracy is to protect the minority's rights from the majority. strict democracy is inherently like a mob, it must be tempered. again and again i marvel at our constitution's lasting wisdom.




-majnu
--------------------------------------
Timid thoughts be not afraid. I am a Poet.

[This message has been edited by Ron (12-11-2005 10:36 PM).]

 
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