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Passions in Poetry

'Tis the Season..

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Balladeer
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0 posted 11-27-2005 06:19 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer


BOSTON (Reuters) - Boston set off a furor this week when it officially renamed a giant tree erected in a city park a "holiday tree" instead of a "Christmas tree."


Here we go again....
Nan
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1 posted 11-27-2005 07:25 AM       View Profile for Nan   Email Nan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nan's Home Page   View IP for Nan

"Happy Holidays," eh?

The good news is that the mayor of Boston won't call it anything but a Christmas tree. So who sanctioned the change?....
Alicat
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2 posted 11-27-2005 10:06 AM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

And yet the anti-religion nimrods keep forgetting that holiday is a contraction of holy day.
Mysteria
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3 posted 11-27-2005 12:38 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

Hmmm, "Christ - Mass!"  So let me get this straight?  Christians are being told not to have Christmas their way again, and to call thier Christmas tree, a holiday tree?  So why is it every nationality is in the malls taking up space buying Christmas presents and trees?   So, how's about the month of December being "Christian month" at the malls then, that would sure works for me!  Oh, and by the way, this explains it all well I think? http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/tracts/tract3.html
While we are learning a bit here today, here is the history of trees in religion, and also non-religions. Seems lately the world is making issue with anyone or anything that causes one to smile? http://www.treecouncil.org.uk/projects/spirtulism.htm
Essorant
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4 posted 11-27-2005 01:24 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

They have as much right to call their tree a "Holiday Tree" as you have the right to call yours a "Christmas Tree"  
Alicat
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5 posted 11-27-2005 02:38 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Right Ess. However, this is yet another seasonal time to try to divorce all Christian symbols or words to better enforce Seperation of Church and State, all supposedly in the name of not offensiving other religions/cultures/people/ideologies under Political Correctness...unless those religions/cultures/people/ideologies just happen to be Christian, then it's Open Season.

If the symbols were Jewish, Muslim or Kwazaan, there'd be an uproar about anti-Semitic, anti-Muslim/Arab, and anti-Black/African-American.  Strange how those against Christianity in the name of Secular Progressive aren't anti-Christian...they're simply enforcing the Seperation of Church and State outlined in the Constitution.  It's their Moral Perogative.  Any other religion and all Gehenna would break loose.

Guess they forget that the Seperation clause was to prevent another instance of Church of England, or the Holy Roman Church, from becoming a State Religion, not to expunge all mention of all things Christian from the public record and eye.
Essorant
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6 posted 11-27-2005 05:55 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I don't think people should be expected to hold the same religious expressions, or specifically religious expressions at all, if they don't wish to or believe to.

They may express "non-religion" all they want, as long as they don't deny you the right to your religion and expression.

Balladeer
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7 posted 11-27-2005 06:21 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Essorant, no one is obligating them to hold religious beliefs or anything of the kind. Personally, they can feel anything they want and have a holiday tree or whatever they want to call it...personally. but these are people supposed to be representing the populace who elected them. Nan, it was the city council that passed this. A poll immediately after found that 68% of the people polled were against this action. The Canadian, who has supplied the tree for a large number of years, is demanding to have the tree returned. The Mayor has declared he will not support the action and will even ignore it. It's not a question of not letting someone do what they want to do - it's a question of not letting them dictate to the public actions in which the large percentage of public are against. There's a huge difference here....
LoveBug
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8 posted 11-29-2005 04:47 PM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

It seems that every faith is free to express itself except for Christianity...

Christopher
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9 posted 11-29-2005 08:22 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

There is a large difference between allowing someone to express their religion/beliefs and allowing them to shove it in another's face.

I believe that's the demarcation point in question here, not the right of expression. (For what it's worth, I think the statement that every other religion is allowed to express their beliefs except Christianity is misguided at best. Regardless of our supposed separation of Church and State, I can't tell you how many times I've heard the man who's supposed to be the symbol of our country as a whole [el presidento del busho] reference and thank and request of the Christian God.)

On one hand, we have those arguing against those who would have "Under God We Trust" removed, while the opposite side says we shouldn't allow homosexuality being referenced in schools, because it will teach their children a subject that they believe should be left in the home. Anybody else recognize the irony there?

I think many will give a nod to the idea that Christmas began as a religious holiday. But I have to wonder how many of those will agree that it remains a religious holiday? If you want to see how non-religious Christmas has become, take a jaunt out to the mall - the only religion being adhered to these days [as a whole] is the religion of mass-consumerism. Christmas (in fact, all the holidays) no longer represent their origins, but instead represent a time for people to buy stuff. I don't believe the "Spirit of Christmas" resides at Best Buy these days, but tell that to the thousands of people who will go there to buy presents.

I think it's fair to just do away with the name and convert it to the generic title of "Holiday." That is, unless people want to actually start returning Christmas to what it supposedly used to be - a time to give thanks for and recognize Christ's birth. Of course, you might not get that brand new I-Pod you wanted if you did that...
Balladeer
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10 posted 11-29-2005 09:08 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

hmmm...in that case, Easter, 4th of July, Mother's Day, Father's Day, Valentine's Day and a variety of other days which one can say do little more than signal "BUY SOMETHING!!" should also be changed to generic day?

Christmas certainly involves spending money but, believe it or not, there are more than a few people that actually do still regard it as a day that stands for more than that. To hint that "people" need to return to what Christmas stands for is insulting the millions that actually do. They count, too.

...and, yes, the Spirit of Christmas IS at Best Buy. I bought three of them last week!  

[This message has been edited by Balladeer (11-29-2005 10:21 PM).]

LeeJ
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can you imagine, for a moment, what would happen if all people in favor of Christmas and all that goes with the program, didn't shop one year?  I betcha, Christmas, and spiritual Christmas songs would be immediately reinstated.  

Ohhhh sighs...if only people would stick together and seriously do something about it, instead of simply complaining...we always seem to sit passively by allowing these things to happen.  Can you imagine if we'd start to turn around and throw law suits as these people for taking away our beliefs?

This movement your speaking of became powerful b/c they're people got together and did something about it...they organized, and we continue to allow it to happen?
Balladeer
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12 posted 11-30-2005 11:22 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, LeeJ, they don't take away beliefs, of course, just the right to express them. As far as banding together is concerned, you may be seeing some of that. There were people on the CBS News last night organizing boycotts against stores who have eliminated references to Christmas in their decorations and advertising and made everything generic instead. That's a start.

Lawsuits? No, that would involve lawsuit lawyers which would spoil the whole idea of Christmas, anyway!
Mistletoe Angel
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13 posted 11-30-2005 05:41 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

I'm mixed on this debate in general.

I value faith very much in my life, and during the holiday season I do wear it even more so out on my sleeve, especially when advocating the need for others to volunteer at their local rescue missions and give to the needy and poor their hearts and caring. There is a deep spirituality behind the holidays that I hope with all my heart will never vanish or be seized from us.

However, another concern I have is how some of those most fiercely against these renamings, which many are among the anti-ACLU crowd, inject into the debate claims like "December 25th is our holiday, not yours.", or "get your own holiday".

I would be much more sympathetic towards those with the concerns of despiritualizing the holidays if they'd just keep that rhetoric out of the talk. I think often many forget that "happy holidays" is not a brand new slogan either. Go back to when many of our most popular Christmas carols from the 1940's were written and popularized and you can see how many times those two words are also mentioned. Even before then it was a popular customary greeting.

Holidays are indeed "holy days" as was earlier specified. Nonetheless, it's not restricted solely to a particular denomination of Christians. Holidays also resonate to Jews, Muslims, even atheists.

I understand the concerns many have here, but it equally bothers me too how there's just many who spoil the genuinity of their arguments in trying to spoil the fun for others, many of which are from the same crowds that frequently demonize the ACLU (and I do not agree with every decision they make, though I feel they do get too much bad press and simply interpret the Constitution in many of their decisions), and many of those groups also are influenced by anti-Muslim sentiments and such. If this rhetoric can just be distanced from the issue itself, I feel so many more will be convinced and won over by this argument.

I hope you can see what I mean here.

Love,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
Ron
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14 posted 11-30-2005 09:18 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Last I checked, I could call it anything I want. I suspect you can, too.

So, explain to me again why I should care what someone else call it?
Denise
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15 posted 11-30-2005 11:20 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Merry Christmas!

I won't be spending my money at any of the stores that divorce "Christmas" from the holiday season (Sears/K-Mart, Kohls, Target.) If they really want to be all-inclusive and not hurt anyone's feelings all they have to do is have banners and advertising that acknowledge all the different holidays that may fall on or around the traditional and national holiday called Christmas. That would make more sense to me, if what they really want is inclusiveness. But I think what the secularists really want is the homogenization of the season and to just have us all saying Merry Winter!



Brad
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16 posted 12-01-2005 07:01 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

http://mediamatters.org/items/200511300006
Denise
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The site you that you referenced forgot to mention that the Fox News Shop also lists a "Christmas and Chanakuh Collection", Brad.

Bill and John both stated on their programs last week that they don't have a problem with calling things "Holiday" items or wishing someone "Happy Holidays". That's always been done. The problem is with the deliberate exclusion of the term "Christmas" by many retailers this year and with the ongoing assault against "Christmas" by the ACLU and other secularist groups.
Balladeer
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18 posted 12-01-2005 07:46 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

...and your point is, Brad? There's been nothing political spoken concerning this topic. Is the fact that Fox promotes a holiday tree supposed to has some special signifigance? People may picket Fox with my blessing and I would support them if they eliminated Christmas...it's not political.
Brad
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19 posted 12-01-2005 08:07 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

When has the ACLU sued a retailer for using the word Christmas?

I don't know, I'm really asking.

As for the point, this began with the Boston tree party(that's political) and after that, well, people are riled up about something but if it's not the use of Holiday as a stand in for some holiday, I don't know what it is.

Balladeer
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20 posted 12-01-2005 09:13 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

It's not only Boston, Brad. There are reports of schools rewriting Christmas carols to take all references to Christmas out of them. This morning on the news there was a report of a schoolgirl being sent home for doing something like either saying Marry Christmas or wearing something that referred to it...I didn't catch the details before it ended. As time goes on this year there will be many other instances, I assure you.
Alicat
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21 posted 12-02-2005 12:58 AM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

While everyone's busy taking down Thanksgiving (or even Halloween or Easter) decorations and putting up Christmas or other religious/secular displays, lets all have some hash, or rather, rehash.
http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum6/HTML/001107.html
Balladeer
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22 posted 12-02-2005 09:03 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

2004 WorldNetDaily.com

The New Jersey school district that banned Christmas music, even by instrumental groups, from its holiday concerts has been hit with a lawsuit claiming officials have demonstrated hostility toward religion.

Thomas More Law Center filed a federal lawsuit Friday on behalf of Michael Stratechuk and his two children, who are students in the South Orange/Maplewood School District. According to a statement from Thomas More, the suit claims the district's action is unconstitutional.

As WorldNetDaily reported, this year the district expanded its no-Christmas music policy to include instrumental music. Instead of tunes about Jesus, and even Santa Claus, the 40-member Columbia High School brass ensemble will be limited for the first time to seasonal selections such as "Winter Wonderland" and "Frosty the Snowman." The group's holiday concert is scheduled for tomorrow night.

"This is another example of the anti-Christmas, anti-religion policy infecting our public-school system," said Richard Thompson, president and chief counsel of the law center, in a statement. "The Constitution does not require our public schools to become religion-free zones. Forcing students to strip all religious content from music is like asking them to study art history while excluding paintings from the Renaissance because they contain religious subjects."
Balladeer
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23 posted 12-02-2005 09:22 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Wal-Mart faces boycott
for 'banning' Christmas
Top retailer accused of discrimination while promoting Kwanzaa, Hanukkah
Posted: November 10, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern

By Joe Kovacs
2005 WorldNetDaily.com


A Catholic advocacy group has launched a national boycott against Wal-Mart, claiming the world's No. 1 retailer has in effect "banned" Christmas, while promoting other seasonal holidays such as Hanukkah and Kwanzaa.

But Wal-Mart tells WorldNetDaily it has "absolutely not" banned Christmas, but is just "trying to serve all our customers for the holiday season."

According to the New York-based Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights, the controversy was sparked when a woman recently complained to Wal-Mart that the store was replacing its "Merry Christmas" greeting with "Happy Holidays."

The League says the woman received an e-mail response from a customer-service representative, reading exactly as follows:

    Walmart is a world wide organization and must remain conscious of this. The majority of the world still has different practices other than "christmas" which is an ancient tradition that has its roots in Siberian shamanism. The colors associated with "christmas" red and white are actually a representation of of the aminita mascera mushroom. Santa is also borrowed from the Caucuses, mistletoe from the Celts, yule log from the Goths, the time from the Visigoth and the tree from the worship of Baal. It is a wide wide world.

Catholic League president Bill Donohue speculated the writer of that e-mail was perhaps drunk, so he sent the response to Dan Fogleman in Wal-Mart's public-relations department.

Fogleman confirmed the original note was written by a Wal-Mart representative, and he continued:

    As a retailer, we recognize some of our customers may be shopping for Chanukah or Kwanzaa gifts during this time of year and we certainly want these customers in our stores and to feel welcome, just as we do those buying for Christmas. As an employer, we recognize the significance of the Christmas holiday among our family of associates ... and close our stores in observance, the only day during the year that we are closed.
Balladeer
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24 posted 12-02-2005 09:28 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Wal-Mart boycott
ends with apology
Catholic League says retail giant
has satisfied Christmas demands
Posted: November 11, 2005
10:07 a.m. Eastern


2005 WorldNetDaily.com


After a series of reports by WorldNetDaily, Wal-Mart officials have satisfied demands by the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights, which had called for a national boycott after accusing the retail giant of discriminating against Christmas while promoting other seasonal holidays by name, such as Kwanzaa and Hanukkah.

Catholic League president Bill Donohue said Wal-Mart has apologized, withdrawn "its insane statement" on the origins of Christmas and revised its website.

"This is a sweet victory for the Catholic League, Christians in general, and people of all faiths," Donohue said. "And it means that Wal-Mart can now enter the Christmas season without this cloud hanging over it."

Donohue said a customer service employee named Kirby who touched off the controversy with an e-mail about the origins of Christmas has been fired.

Wal-Mart spokesman Dan Fogleman released a statement last night saying, "We sincerely apologize to any person or organization that was offended by the inappropriate and inflammatory comments made by this former associate."

Fogleman confirmed the original note was written by a Wal-Mart representative and explained yesterday:


"We at Wal-Mart believe this e-mail between a temporary associate and one of our valued customers was entirely inappropriate. Its contents in no way represent the policies, practices or views of our company. This associate, who was hired less than three weeks ago, is no longer employed by our company."

Donohue said Wal-Mart also has adjusted its website so that when a customer types "Christmas" in its search engine, he no longer gets, "We've brought you to our Holiday page based on your search." Now the customer is taken directly to a site named "Christmas."


Hey, sometimes things work!!!

 
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