City of Roses
Hey Bradly, thank you so very much for starting up this thread here, as indeed this last week has been an important week in terms of debating this war, and I find it absolutely essential we catch up on the debate.
With that said, I would like to challenge you as always on some of your points you've made here! LOL!
"Well, as the liberal media is the ONLY one advertising, I would tend to agree with this statement. What is NOT being talked about in the press that needs the bad stories, is the successes (yes, I said successes) that the American military is having. (before anyone starts screaming, I have a very close personal friend that is in theater, and get my info first hand). Militarily, we ARE winning the war. AS far as rebuilding the infrastructure, and the country in general, we ARE succeeding. So far, in the last 3 years, the country has gone from 35% of the hospitals being operational to 100% operational. Females are going to school. Iraqis are PROTESTING openly. The violence at voting plaves has decreased dramatically. The violence against US troops has decreased DRAMATICALLY. So, I guess Rep. Murtha is right. The Press is NOT advertising the war correctly."
I believe we can both absolutely agree that our young men and women in uniform themselves are individually doing wonderful things for the people in Iraq. There's no arguing in they have done many individual good things for the people, including trying to get power and water to the areas still in blackout, getting schools and hospitals back in operation, helping get citizens safely to the polls, etc. I absolutely agree when you look at Iraq from a local level in particular beyond the fighting and the war itself, there is much good around.
In terms of the war ITSELF, we are LOSING the war. I repeat.....we are LOSING this war. I believe the sole piece of evidence that we are losing is in the fact that when the war first began, Iraq was NOT a central front on the war on terror, and now it has become one. It has literally become a training ground for al-Qaeda, whose recruitment is also on the rise. Jordan, previously the only generally-stable country in the Middle East from terror, just got attacked by them, showing that the region in general is becoming more unstable. Dozens continue to die seemingly each day from car bomb after car bomb. All of this going on without any exit strategy in sight.
A majority of Americans themselves believe that it was not worth going to war with Iraq, and that we made a mistake going there. Moreover, I believe this administration would be apearing much more credible right now if they would only tell the full truth of what's happening down there and admit to their mistakes rather than just stick with their pre-war intelligence mantras. Instead, they are choosing to further polarize this nation and slime every critic of questioning their pre-war intelligence.
Both in Iraq and here at home, this war is only bringing out the worst in us all. I don't deny that our troops are doing wonderful things down there for the citizens and doing all they can to comfort them among this colossal mess, but looking at the war itself, I find it plainly obvious we're LOSING.
"Well, for the last 2 1/2 years, Rep Murtha has been one of the largest supporters of the troops, and the military action in IRaq. Some members of Congress have used the word "hawkish" towards him. So, what has changed? How is it that members of his OWN party have called him "hawkish" yet he is concerned that entire time???"
First of all, the press is treating this as if this is something brand news, a bolt out of the blue, that never before has Murtha spoken out against the war in Iraq.
That's not true. It is absolutely clear Murtha voted for the war resolution, but on September 16, 2003, Murtha came out and said that "someone should be fired over Iraq". On May 13, 2004, he spoke out again, this time saying this:
“The way we’re going, I don’t think it’s winnable,” he said. “We have completely misjudged the opposition and planned for the best case scenario, and we really are talking about the worst case scenario. … We’re bargain hunting. What we’re doing is trying to fight a war with what we have available, rather than what we need.”
Then, on June 28th of this year, he said this:
"Let me tell you something. There’s a big difference between a timetable — General Zinni says I wouldn’t have a — I don’t think there’s any military guy that thinks you should have a timetable withdrawal. But we should have a timetable — something we can measure. The — we get so many different stories, hell, we don’t know! We don’t know when they’re telling us truth or not telling the truth. We need them to say, “Okay, we get this many people trained at this level, we’ll then be able to pull some troops out of there..."
So, yes, he has had a recent history of supporting the troops AND criticizing this war. As for your question of how many Democrats consider him "hawkish", I'm not sure, but I still believe the Democrats, despite some recent strong leadership by Harry Reid, are still lost in the woods, still unsure of their identity as a party.
Well, no joke, Sherlock. Wounded men suffering. I would never have guessed that."
I believe he only bothered mentioning that because I seriously can't help but believe that our own administration doesn't take this fact as seriously as they should. It's not cardboard cutouts that are being blown up out there, it's real people. They're literally just sitting back repeating, "We'll do this as long as it needs to take" and nothing more, without any exit strategy, without any plan for victory, and this attitude is basically just leaving our troops vulnerable down there, standing on their two feet vigilant for way too long, hoping they won't be the next to be standing in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Unlike almost everyone in this administration, Murtha served, and so he truly knows what it's like to survive and live within danger. I think it certainly helps to have those like Murtha around to remind those who didn't live in his boots that the danger is real down there, and when there's no plan being mentioned, how else are you going to feel as though they don't understand this reality in the fullest?
"Gee... I predict that in a couple of year's time, we hear the fateful words "My name is John Murtha, and I am running for the Presidency of the United States" coming from this Congressman's mouth. THAT is why he is speaking out."
Let's put it this way. If this is truly his intent and he goes for the presidency, I'm not going to vote for him. I respect the man for his service and in speaking out against some of the injustices of this war, but beyond that he doesn't strike me as someone who'd make a great president.
"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"