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Brad
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0 posted 2005-09-12 09:13 PM


http://mediamatters.org/items/200509090003

quote:
But the second thought I had when I saw these people and they had to shut down the Astrodome and lock it down, I thought: I didn't think I could hate victims faster than the 9-11 victims. These guys -- you know it's really sad. We're not hearing anything about Mississippi. We're not hearing anything about Alabama. We're hearing about the victims in New Orleans. This is a 90,000-square-mile disaster site, New Orleans is 181 square miles. A hundred and -- 0.2 percent of the disaster area is New Orleans! And that's all we're hearing about, are the people in New Orleans. Those are the only ones we're seeing on television are the scumbags -- and again, it's not all the people in New Orleans. Most of the people in New Orleans got out! It's just a small percentage of those who were left in New Orleans, or who decided to stay in New Orleans, and they're getting all the attention. It's exactly like the 9-11 victims' families. There's about 10 of them that are spoiling it for everybody.

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/09/09.html

quote:
Williams: ..they[those who didn't get out of New Orleans] didn't have the necessary brains and common sense to get out of the way of a Cat 5 Hurricane and then when it hit them- stood on the side of the convention Center expiring while reporters were coming and going..

Morris:...that's just sickening---that is atrocious what you are saying..



You see, we shouldn't believe what the government says except,well, when they talk in the future tense?

© Copyright 2005 Brad - All Rights Reserved
Brad
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1 posted 2005-09-12 09:20 PM


http://alternet.org/columnists/story/25267/

quote:
The exhausted and desperate black mayor of New Orleans begged for help in an interview late last week. "They're feeding the public a line of bull and they're spinning, and people are dying down here," Mayor Ray Nagin said, talking about the feds. "It's politics, man, and they are playing games. ... They're out there spinning for the cameras. ... I don't want to see anybody do any more goddamned press conferences. ... Excuse my French, everybody in America, but I am pissed. ...

"Don't tell me 40,000 people are coming here! They're not here! It's too doggone late. Now get off your asses and do something, and let's fix the biggest goddamned crisis in the history of this country. People are dying."

The mayor was in tears. I heard two nice, white American "ladies" deploring this interview. "Well! He should remember there might be children listening!" Children still without food and water. What happens to people when they talk about race? Of course, most of us don't actually talk about race any more, we refer to it only indirectly, we talk "those people."

Watch carefully, listen carefully -- minority groups have always been blamed after natural disasters, since the days when the Hungarians were supposed to have cut the fingers off bodies to get the gold rings in the wake of the Johnstown Flood. Dirty Bohunks.


Do we still want to talk about the 2000 mythical buses when the city of NO only had 300?

Brad
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2 posted 2005-09-12 09:22 PM


Oh wait, I forgot.


These people have a right to their opinion.


Balladeer
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3 posted 2005-09-12 09:45 PM


Not sure I understand this thread, Brad. Is it to list anti-Bush websites and discuss what they are saying? I'm confused...
Balladeer
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4 posted 2005-09-12 09:49 PM


"Louisiana Governor
Kathleen Babineaux
Blanco commented, "The buses could have saved an estimated 20,000 people if they had been used for emergency evacuations which President Bush had declared two days before Katrina hit."
"According to WWLTV, during a news conference on Sunday before the hurricane struck, Mayor Nagin claimed he "could and would commandeer any property or vehicle it deemed necessary to provide safe shelter or transport for those in need", but hundreds of vehicles, including city and school district buses, went unused.



http://www.juiceenewsdaily.com/0605/sports/buses.html?1125879106453

300? 2000? Beats me but Blanco said 20,000 people, however many buses there were. She must have known how many to make that statement....


(Edit: url fixed. Alicat)

[This message has been edited by Alicat (09-13-2005 10:10 AM).]

Brad
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5 posted 2005-09-12 10:23 PM


http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/09/12.html#a4927

And there you have it. Bush is off the hook with his extraordinary response.

Hey, is that Nagin standing behind the President?

Balladeer
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6 posted 2005-09-12 11:37 PM


Brad, if I didn't know you better I would say there was sarcasm in them there words
Brad
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7 posted 2005-09-13 12:11 PM


Um, are double entendres sarcastic by definition?
Alicat
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8 posted 2005-09-13 10:20 AM


The bus fiasco is becoming just that.  Nagin said later the buses could not be used because they were flooded.  Which happened on Tuesday.  Evacuation orders were given on Saturday.  3 days to use those school buses to get people out of town.  Granted, some school and municiple buses were used by the local government to bus people to the Superdome...but not any points west.  When asked about the timing, Nagin commented that the workers couldn't be found, saying something to the effect that 'it's hard enough getting everyone to be at their jobs on a good day' while speaking about city employees.

The strange thing is that at least two school buses were taken by untrained bus drivers and driven, loaded with evacuees, to other places.

Brad
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9 posted 2005-09-13 06:49 PM


http://mediamatters.org/items/200509120005

Should he have used the buses?

Of course.

quote:
But Pruden dramatically overstated the number of New Orleans school buses. As of 2003, the most recent year for which data appears to be available, the Orleans Parish school district, which operates New Orleans' public schools, owned only 324 school buses. In addition, a Louisiana Department of Transportation and Development profile of the New Orleans Regional Transit Authority (RTA), last updated May 5, notes that RTA owned 364 public buses, bringing the total of the city's public transit and school buses to fewer than 700 (assuming the fleet of school buses has not been dramatically increased since 2003), far fewer than the 2,000 Pruden claimed. Even so, Pruden's claim was repeated that evening on Fox News' Hannity & Colmes by co-host Sean Hannity, who insisted, "Two thousand buses sat; 2,000 school buses." The falsehood was echoed the next day by Fox news political analyst and former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich (R-GA), who baselessly suggested that the city owned more than enough buses to help every poor person leave the city. And In a September 11 Pittsburgh Post-Gazette column, national security writer Jack Kelly asked, "[W]hy weren't the roughly 2,000 municipal and school buses in New Orleans utilized to take people out of the city before Katrina struck?"


Why do we have a dramatic change in the numbers?

Well,

quote:
In fact, The New York Times reported on September 4 that Louisiana emergency planners believed it would take as many as 2,000 buses "to evacuate an estimated 100,000 elderly and disabled people" in the event of a catastrophic hurricane like Katrina. But, The New York Times wrote, this was "far more than New Orleans possessed."


That is, the shift in numbers coincide with what was needed to evacuate all those in NO.

A coincidence?

Brad
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10 posted 2005-09-13 07:25 PM


This is just a minor correction. Nagin didn't say that thing you think he did.

Mary Landrieu did.

Mary Landrieu

Though, to be honest, she struck me to be as clueless as Chertoff or Brown.

Huan Yi
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11 posted 2005-09-13 08:42 PM



The picture of all those buses
like lifeboats still on their davits
is going to take some explaining.

It may be the single most important image
in the argument now and later.



Balladeer
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12 posted 2005-09-13 09:10 PM


Brad, I have no idea in the world why you are beating drums over the bus issue. Regardless of the numbers, there WERE buses. Those buses could have been used to transport people. They weren't.....period. What battle are you fighting here?
Alicat
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13 posted 2005-09-13 09:31 PM


Thanks Brad for the clarification.  I heard it in passing on FoxNews and didn't completely catch the attributed source.  I thought it was Mayor Nagin or Governor Blanco, then my short term memory frazzled.  Looks like she has a pretty high opinion of civic workers in New Orleans. (insert sarcasm here)  Hope they remember her comments about them come election time.
Brad
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14 posted 2005-09-13 10:29 PM


Ali, I hear ya.

still more buses

quote:
. . . government documents surfaced showing that vital resources, such as buses and environmental health specialists, weren't deployed to the Gulf region for several days, even after federal officials seized control of Hurricane Katrina relief efforts.

...
In addition, FEMA's official requests, known as tasking assignments and used by the agency to demand help from other government agencies, show that it first asked the Department of Transportation to look for buses to help evacuate the more than 20,000 people who had taken refuge at the Superdome in New Orleans at 1:45 a.m. on Aug. 31. At the time, it only asked for 455 buses and 300 ambulances for the enormous task. Almost 18 hours later, it canceled the request for the ambulances because it turned out, as one FEMA employee put it, "the DOT doesn't do ambulances."

FEMA ended up modifying the number of buses it thought it needed to get the job done, until it settled on a final request of 1,355 buses at 8:05 p.m. on Sept. 3. The buses, though, trickled into New Orleans, with only a dozen or so arriving on the first day.


Mike, I'm not going after buses, I'm going after attack dogs. We all here seem to agree that everyone is at fault, but the AD's want to take it further. The basic premise is to blame the victim and the buses are a part of that.

If you have the time, scroll down and read the comments on this link. My favorite one mentions that his ten year old son could drive one of those buses.

Balladeer
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15 posted 2005-09-13 11:08 PM


...and my favorite quote is Nagin saying he couldn't use the buses because they were flooded.

I have to repeat...so what? Whether people are attacking or not, there were buses and they weren't used. Are you saying attack dogs are sleazy? Please don't make me shoot coffee out of my nose!!!

Alicat
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16 posted 2005-09-13 11:24 PM


Thing is, Brad, that Mayor Nagin had the authority under Emergency Orders to use public and private trasportation for evacuation, and he issued orders for evacuations several days prior to the levies breaking.  Governor Blanco had the same authority.  FEMA could've had the authority had Governor Blanco allowed the Feds to take over the brewing emergency several days again before the levies broke.  Neither used everything in their power and arsenal to aid their citizens, instead using a few buses to bring people to the Superdome instead of moving them out of town.

Granted, at first glance it looked like New Orleans dodged the bullet...the first one.  Then came flooding from super saturated soil dumping water into the waterways from both local and upstream sources.  Having lived on the Texan Gulf Coast for several decades prior to moving here, flooding even if missed directly was a known fact for those downriver.  Rains super hard a bit east of Austin, and we're gonna have flooding in a few days from rivers, streams, and creeks cresting.  They have the Mississippi on one side, and a humongous lake on the other.  Surely those elected officials knew about those landmarks and how waterways react to heavy rains.

Balladeer
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17 posted 2005-09-13 11:46 PM


Well, mystery is solved. Nagin just said on Nightline that it wasn't the lack of buses, it was the lack of drivers.....
Local Rebel
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18 posted 2005-09-13 11:50 PM


so... today the La AG charged the owners of a nursing home with negligent homicide because they let their patients drown...

why doesn't the same standard apply to Nagin, Blanco, Brown?

Local Rebel
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19 posted 2005-09-13 11:52 PM


Yeah he said that Sunday morning to Tim Russert also...

couldn't get anybody to drive them...

I'd think some of the people in the superdome would have volunteered!  

Balladeer
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20 posted 2005-09-14 12:14 PM


LOLOL!! I think you're right, reb



Brad
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21 posted 2005-09-14 06:26 PM


Well, it looks like Blanco is, legally, in the clear.

absolutely nothing to do with buses

quote:
Back on September 7th, Rep. John Conyers wrote to the Congressional Research Service (one of the few parts of the government that can legitimately  
Advertisement

  be called non-partisan) and asked them to review the record to see whether Gov. Blanco of Louisiana took the necessary steps in a timely fashion to secure federal assistance in the face of hurricane Katrina.

The report came back yesterday. Yes, she did. Read it yourself.


Not convinced that this lets her off the hook except legally, but maybe this will stop the lying about her failure to declare a state of emergency?

Probably not.



Brad
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22 posted 2005-09-14 06:42 PM


Charles Krauthammer

quote:
In less enlightened times there was no catastrophe independent of human agency. When the plague or some other natural disaster struck, witches were burned, Jews were massacred and all felt better (except the witches and Jews).

A few centuries later, our progressive thinkers have progressed not an inch. No fall of a sparrow on this planet is not attributed to sin and human perfidy. The three current favorites are: (1) global warming, (2) the war in Iraq and (3) tax cuts. Katrina hits and the unholy trinity is immediately invoked to damn sinner-in-chief George W. Bush.


Yeah, but who does he blame:

1. Nature or God is the culprit.

The aiders and abettors:

1. Mayor Nagin

2. Governor Blanco

3. FEMA head, Brown

4. The President

5. Congress

6. The American People

And I thought I was an equal opportunity blamer.

Midnitesun
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23 posted 2005-09-14 07:11 PM


Today, our illustrious leader of the 'free world' has accepted the blame for the poor response.
Finally, someone steps up to the plate. Rarely do I agree with you, Mr President.
Today is an exception. As you are one of the ones responsible for the neutering of FEMA recently, I do feel it's good for you to put your shoulders out here for the public to accept some of the response blame. But since you have no super powers, we all know you can't be held responsible for Katrina's bad behavior. She caught you with your pants down, so to speak.

Balladeer
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24 posted 2005-09-14 09:37 PM


Blanco in the clear, Brad? That's nice. I have a question for you and Kacy and Noah...where is the outrage about Governor Blanco? i haven't seen any.

You have the Red Cross there outside the Superdome walls with food and supplies, ready to help the people inside who desperately need it, and you have Blanco ordering the national guard not to let them in. Where is the outrage? For all of you that looked at the people in deplorable conditions begging for help, how can you not be incensed by Blanco's refusal to allow them aid? For those  of you who screamed, "Damn you, Bush?" while the people were waiting for help, what about it? I mean, this is not a debatable event - the Red Cross reported it and Blanco acknowledged it. Help was there. Blanco chose not to let them have it. I ask but i know where your outrage is....it's at Bush. That's as far as some of you can see. Blanco is in the clear, Brad? I think Blanco has a LOT to still answer for....and hopefully will have to.

Noah stated that now that Bush has acknowledged mistakes, everything can move on. Kacy is glad, although with left-handed comments, that Bush has "come clean". No one insists that Blanco or Nagin make any similar acknowledgements. The Bush bash has never been more obvious...........

Brad
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25 posted 2005-09-14 09:47 PM


quote:
Not convinced that this lets her off the hook except legally, but maybe this will stop the lying about her failure to declare a state of emergency?


Maybe I should have been more emotional at this point?



Balladeer
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26 posted 2005-09-14 10:00 PM


That's ok, Brad...I didn't expect an answer.
Ron
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27 posted 2005-09-14 11:12 PM


LA. governor takes blame for response AP Wire

I think President Bush's shortcomings in this disaster were the result of poor priorities, perhaps even bordering on incompetence. And that's a shame. Governor Blanco's shortcomings, however, were the result of mean-spirited manipulation. She allegedly prevented the Red Cross from helping in a misguided attempt to force evacuees to leave and prevent others from arriving. And that, if true, is unforgivable.

Personally, however, amidst death and destruction, some of which could have been potentially avoided, it's hard to care overly much about continued accusations of "Bush bashing." Criticism is simply part of the job description, and there's no president since Washington who hasn't faced similar stabs, both justified and unjustified, from political opponents. The appropriate counter is usually the truth, not yet more spin.

Katrina left tens of thousands of victims in her wake. Sorry, Mike, but I for one will continue to have a real tough time seeing President Bush as one of them.

Local Rebel
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28 posted 2005-09-14 11:45 PM


Yes Ron,

They've both accepted the blame now.  

Are they going to stand in a corner?  What does it mean to accept responsibility for avoidable deaths?

When Brown went through confirmation hearings to be, then, Deputy director of FEMA -- exactly 4 Senators showed up.

What of the Senate oversight?

The Convention Center was far worse than what we'd heard apparently.  Swat teams couldn't even bring it under control. Gangs of armed thugs robbing and shooting, 20-25 men carrying off women and raping them.  The Swat teams would go in with flashlights on their assault rifles, wait for the flash of a muzzle and move toward it.  Citizens curled on the floor in fetal position trying to avoid fire.  If they caught anybody they had no where to put them and no one to gaurd them so they were merely disarmed and released a few blocks away.  The assaulted women had nowhere to go so most of them just went outside and stood too afraid to go back inside. Bush had full authority to go in and put down an insurrection with or without any request or approval from the Governor.
The Governor had resourses to send in for backup.

Brown didn't even know, according to him, there were people in the Convention Center, even though the Mayor had asked FEMA every day since impact to get help getting them out.

Coolidge responded faster to the flood in 1927 than our team did in 2005.


Balladeer
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29 posted 2005-09-15 12:22 PM


The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city

I see nothing "alleged" there, Ron...and that's from the Red Cross official website.

My problem is not with the criticism of Bush....that has come to be a given for whatever has gone wrong in the world and Bush is not the first president that has endured that. My complaint is with those so biased and prejudiced that they will completely disregard or ignore pertinent information or actions from any other individuals in their fervor to paint Bush with the blackest paint possible. Amid their comments and sarcastic remarks, they do not address or even acknowledge guilt or shortcomings of anyone else involved. That's no effort to get at the truth....that's simply bashing.

No, I have never said I consider Bush a victim and I don't. Nor do I consider him the anti-Christ. He should have been more presidential and hands-on and he wasn't but, for intelligent people to ignore all of the flaws on all levels of the three governments involved and continue to aim their arrows and insults solely at him, I find to be completely unjust.

I can assure you that if Bush had stopped the Red Cross from delivering food or if Bush has failed to use available buses to evacuate the poor, these same people ignoring these points would be screaming for Bush's head on a platter in righteous indignation and hate. Yet, with other people doing it, somehow it's ignorable.

I thank you for not ignoring it, Ron...


Midnitesun
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30 posted 2005-09-15 12:25 PM


Well, the blame list grows by the minute, almost as fast as the body count.
(Mike, just because I didn't address the culpability of others in this thread doesn't mean I haven't elsewhere.)

Bush IS the Commander in Chief, the President, and he certainly was in a position to do more than he did once it was obviously beyond the abilities of state and local government alone to respond. I think most citizens EXPECT the Feds to be there almost immediately when the stuff hits the fan.

The levees should have been fixed long ago. And ideally, the city should have been emptied out of all living creatures. But I doubt even massive federal intervention would have accomplished that. Many thought that once the hurricane's initial hit was over, they'd be just fine. They didn't believe those levees would give way. And if they did, they didn't anticipate the FORCEFULNESS, the AMOUNT and SPEED of the water.
The nursing home owners are already being sued. And I expect the blame will be spread out over hundreds of more heads before the city is even dry. Bush just happens to be one of the first blame targets, but certainly won't be the only one.
I do think it was a good move to replace FEMA's director with a disaster response professional. That is a step in the right direction.

Balladeer
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31 posted 2005-09-15 12:26 PM


LR, would you kindly provide the link from where you got that information about the conditions at the convention shelter?
Local Rebel
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32 posted 2005-09-15 06:44 AM


Sure Mike
  http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/11/national/nationalspecial/11response.html? incamp=article_popular_5

Or if you aren't registered (free) you can listen to interview with reporter Christopher Drew:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4844762

Tim
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33 posted 2005-09-15 08:42 AM


and because it was printed in the NYT's and reported on NPR it has to be the truth.

I have no idea what happened, but I will wait until facts are known.  There is just as much credible evidence of the levees being blown up with bombs to save the French Quarter and downtown.  Any number of people in the Superdome knew that happened and Louis Farrakahn reported it happened and I heard it on the radio so obviously it happened.

There was a "credible" story ran of cannablism.  The one thing to understand about the press, they do not most generally lie about what they have heard, but they do report events that are not true because that is what they are told.

Rumors have a life of their own and in a crisis situation they are prone to magnify themselves and without a doubt people believe them, they just do not happen to be true.  Was the situation bad? without a doubt, is it a coincidence two separate eyewitness accounts of atrocities were made by the same person who apparently was in Houston and New Orleans at the same time?

If it turns out the rape of young children did not happen, I wonder what the press will report? Even if some of the reported atrocities did not happen, I wonder if the people who read the papers will ever know or believe the truth of what happened.

Alicat
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34 posted 2005-09-15 10:38 AM


Before the levies broke on Tuesday in New Orleans, the Federal response to other states directly impacted by Hurricane Katrina was more than adequate.  Mississippi and Alabama did everything they could to secure the lives of their citizens, had their National Guards on the scenes, and were in a position where FEMA could respond rapidly.  Things are still bad in those states, but it's more about hurricane damage to buildings and industry.  Even other parts of Louisiana which aren't New Orleans are doing better, since the local officials did what it took to secure their citizens and they knew it would take some time for the Feds to arrive due to travel conditions.

So, New Orleans is the focus.  Evacuations ordered Friday through Sunday.  President Bush pleads, head of NOAA pleads.  Some damage to city but not much.  Monday water ways crest from upstream drainage.  Tuesday several levies are breached.  Tuesday evening is when officials start hollering for the Federal and private assistance which some political creatures blocked for political reasons.

Fact is, the Feds did just about everything they could without breaking Federal and State law.  Granted, there were some logistic issues, and those were cleared as quickly as possible.  For some reason there's those who think when a major storm hits, all the major roads are nice and dry, and free of debris, and that all staging areas are free of any water/wind/structural damage.  Yes, President Bush could've done more.  Yes, FEMA could've done more.  Yes, they could have completely usurped the State and Federal Constitutions to ensure that New Orleans got everything they needed both before, during, and after Katrina's passing.  It's not like President Bush can run for another term or anything, so he's nothing to lose, right?  Not to mention that there would be a new precedence for States of Emergency and Federal Disaster Areas.

Local Rebel
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35 posted 2005-09-15 06:30 PM


quote:

and because it was printed in the NYT's and reported on NPR it has to be the truth.



quote:

but I will wait until facts are known



When the New York Times and NPR reported that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, ran rape rooms, and aided and abetted Osama Bin Laden -- I don't recall you raising any question about the credibility of those reports Tim.

Of course, as a Prosecutor, you know that substantiating a claim of rape is difficult under ideal conditions.  When infrastructure is gone and there are no doctors, hospitals, or rape crisis centers to gather evidence it is obvious there will never be any evidence to substantiate your facts.  But, we know for fact, that rape is the most under-reported crime to begin with and that the FBI says that only about 2-5% of the reported rapes are false reports.

Certainly counselor, you would stipulate as much.

So, let's try to imagine, in a city where there is chaos and people are looting freely out in the open on the streets and witnesses reported stabbed and shot bodies -- is it possible that gangs of armed thugs attacked people in the Convention Center and took their money and jewelry?  Is it even conceivable that during normal times in a city with one of the highest per-capita murder rates, where you can walk down heavily traveled Canal Street or Bourbon Street, burgeoning with pedestrians all around, that someone will walk up to you with a handgun and take your wallet, is it conceivable counselor that when the power is out, the lights are off and the average citizen is a sitting duck that armed thugs would take their money and jewelry?  Is it conceivable that armed thugs, in said city with one of the highest crime rates in the country, would in fact, drag women off and rape them?

Yes

It is.  But, we don't believe women when they say they've been raped anyway.  We tell them they shouldn't have worn their dress so short.  They shouldn't have been in the place they were in.

Like the young lady in New Orleans I knew who was, driving home one night after partying with friends.  It was late.  She shouldn't have been out at that time of the morning.  But, she was.  And there was a stop light.  A red Mustang pulled up beside her at the light.  A man got out of it and pushed in her window and pulled her out.  He threw her in the Mustang that was occupied by a driver and 2 other men.  He took her car.  They drove her into an alley and gang raped her, broke her jaw completely in two places, pistol-whipped her on the head leaving her brain exposed.  And, they left her pregnant as well.  They took her car, and left her for dead.

She shouldn't have been out at that hour.  And, she shouldn't have been raped.  Just like the people in the Convention Center, who were either too poor to just gas up the SUV with the Visa card or the tourists from the Hotels who's flights were canceled and couldn't get rental cars because there were none -- they shouldn't have been there.  They shouldn't have been raped and robbed.  The officers who were so overwhelmed by the loss of control of the city shouldn't have taken their own lives.  None of it should have happened.  

But, it did.  

If, a facile attempt, at raising doubt helps you sleep at night -- go ahead.  
quote:

Fact is, the Feds did just about everything they could without breaking Federal and State law.



Really?   They sent in the 82nd Airborne?  They sent in the Battan that rode in right behind the storm?  Factually Cat, that statement is about as incorrect as it can be.

Brad
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36 posted 2005-09-15 06:35 PM


I guess you're right, Ali.

Delay, Boss, Delay
quote:
House Majority Leader Tom DeLay said yesterday that Republicans have done so well in cutting spending that he declared an "ongoing victory," and said there is simply no fat left to cut in the federal budget.
    Mr. DeLay was defending Republicans' choice to borrow money and add to this year's expected $331 billion deficit to pay for Hurricane Katrina relief. Some Republicans have said Congress should make cuts in other areas, but Mr. DeLay said that doesn't seem possible.
    "My answer to those that want to offset the spending is sure, bring me the offsets, I'll be glad to do it. But nobody has been able to come up with any yet," the Texas Republican told reporters at his weekly briefing.
    Asked if that meant the government was running at peak efficiency, Mr. DeLay said, "Yes, after 11 years of Republican majority we've pared it down pretty good.


Is there anybody out there who actually believes this?



Alicat
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37 posted 2005-09-15 06:57 PM


That depends on your definition of 'soon after'.  The military personnel from the Army's 82nd Airborne and 1st Cavalry Division, and the Marine's 1st and 2nd Expeditionary Divisions were to be sent around September 3rd, 4 days after the levies broke.

quote:
Bush, who toured the region yesterday, noted that 4,000 active troops already are involved in the hurricane response, primarily working directly on search-and-rescue operations and providing logistical and medical support.

The new forces will include 2,500 troops from the Army's 82nd Airborne and 2,700 from the 1st Cavalry Division and about 2,000 from the Marines' 1st and 2nd Expeditionary forces, military officials said.


Source, Sept 3, 2005

Balladeer
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38 posted 2005-09-15 07:50 PM


Just like the people in the Convention Center, who were either too poor to just gas up the SUV with the Visa card or the tourists from the Hotels who's flights were canceled and couldn't get rental cars because there were none

....or didn't get seats on the buses Nagin didn't send because he couldn't find drivers because you know very well the city employees don't even show up on sunny days, much less on rainy ones.

Brad
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39 posted 2005-09-15 08:29 PM


Oh my gosh, you mean Nagin screwed up too?

I thought it was all Blanco's fault.


Tim
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since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794

40 posted 2005-09-15 08:52 PM


one should never assume facts.  I am not a prosecutor.  I once was, but no longer.

What is the attempt to bring up the weapons of mass destruction?  Is that a what they call a red herring?  

I have far more experience than you do I suspect in rape, child molestation, murder and any number of depravities of the human race, so I am not real taken by emotional appeal.  I will still stick with the facts which I suspect are bad enough, but I still don't believe everything I read in the paper and will wait for the truth to emerge.

Balladeer
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41 posted 2005-09-15 09:00 PM


That's weak, Brad...
Brad
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42 posted 2005-09-15 09:26 PM


Nah, weak would have been, I don't know, posting a few of the stupid quotes that people have been saying over the last couple of weeks:

the things people say

quote:
1) "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees." –President Bush, on "Good Morning America," Sept. 1, 2005, six days after repeated warnings from experts about the scope of damage expected from Hurricane Katrina (Source)

2) "What I'm hearing which is sort of scary is that they all want to stay in Texas. Everybody is so overwhelmed by the hospitality. And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway so this (chuckle) – this is working very well for them." –Former First Lady Barbara Bush, on the hurricane evacuees at the Astrodome in Houston, Sept. 5, 2005 (Source)

4) "Considering the dire circumstances that we have in New Orleans, virtually a city that has been destroyed, things are going relatively well." –FEMA Director Michael Brown, Sept. 1, 2005 (Source)

5) "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job." –President Bush, to FEMA director Michael Brown, while touring hurricane-ravaged Mississippi, Sept. 2, 2005 (Source)

6) "Now tell me the truth boys, is this kind of fun?" –House Majority Leader Tom Delay (R-TX), to three young hurricane evacuees from New Orleans at the Astrodome in Houston, Sept. 9, 2005 (Source)


Now that would have been weak and shameless. And you know I'd never do anything like that.



Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea
43 posted 2005-09-15 09:40 PM


A little more seriously:

quote:
Bush IS the Commander in Chief, the President, and he certainly was in a position to do more than he did once it was obviously beyond the abilities of state and local government alone to respond. I think most citizens EXPECT the Feds to be there almost immediately when the stuff hits the fan.


--Midnitesun

One of the arguments that can be gleaned from the attack dogs is that we shouldn't depend on the feds (they don't say this but I assume we shouldn't depend on the states or locals either).

This one's hard to debunk. Doesn't it make sense to "be prepared"?

Have we somehow been duped by a style of tough talking into actually believing that government is going to do what it is they say they're going to do?

----------------------

*I probably shouldn't use 'we' here but it sounded better that way.



Local Rebel
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44 posted 2005-09-15 10:14 PM


quote:

wait for the truth to emerge



which will come to you how? via osmosis?  

Balladeer
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45 posted 2005-09-15 10:16 PM


Thank you, Brad. Your comment proves my point...no comments about anyone except the federal goverment or Bush. Everyone else involved was ok, I suppose, according to you.

Nightline ran a special tonight on a day-by-day account of the entire situation. Guess what? When Bush said no one anticipated the breach of the levees, Koppel agreed with him, as did everyone else. The report was impartial. It was not kind to  Bush or FeMA but it also showed that the local and state government did nothing except run around in confusion, not knowing what to do. They did not ask for help when they should have, they told everyone buses were coming at the same time buses were being flooded, they did not provide any security or provisions, they kept the Red cross out....it could have been a real eye-opener to you, if you had not been so busy looking for Bush comments to watch it. But, hey, i guess it's more fun your way, right?

Alicat
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46 posted 2005-09-15 10:32 PM


And in his Address on location in New Orleans, President Bush took total responsibility for the Government's failings in the Katrina aftermath.  He is the Commander in Chief, and President of the United States, and as such, is ultimately responsible for the good, bad, and neutral.

To the Bush-Haters, happy yet?

Local Rebel
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47 posted 2005-09-15 11:00 PM


I'm wondering if the Bush supporters are happy Cat?  

This guy just laid out a speech that could have come from the most liberal Democrat... billions for reconstruction -- and it's going to be placed in the hands, apparently, of the Governor and Mayor -- we're supposed to give these two idiots 200 billion dollars to spend?

How is the Congress going to oversee that Federal spending if it's being controlled by the state and local governments?  How is that going to work?

We're going to end poverty by spending money???  Really?  Is that what he said?  Poverty is the result of racism and discrimination?  How well is that playing with conservatives?

When we rebuild we, no doubt, have to include the public housing alongside middle-class working areas so that there is interaction and role models for people -- that's the real problem is the location of the real estate -- having vast areas of nothing but public housing and poverty... I hope that's what he was getting at.


Balladeer
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48 posted 2005-09-16 12:43 PM


The Devil may start passing out ice skates, LR, because I agree with you. It has always been a democratic ploy to throw money at a problem to make it go away...education being a prime example. Bush told many people what they wanted to hear and it is indeed a worthy goal....but the devil is definitely in the details. Simply passing the money out would be disasterous. There is also a question of where the money will come from. Already there is rumbling from other states about why should they be saddled with higher taxes because a natural disaster hit another part of the country? I think Bush has thrown out the popular things to say but has not yet given a lot of thought to how this will be done. On the other hand it will certainly provide a lot of jobs to areas where the unemployment rate is over 20%, like New Orleans. On the other hand, if the populace are, like according to Nagel, not even willing to show up for work on sunny days it won't help them much but it will a lot of workers who will come in from other states. A lot of the people who are standing around, screaming "The government better do something!" should be out there doing something themselves...but, then, that's not the world we live in, is it?
Alicat
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49 posted 2005-09-16 01:54 PM


President Bush can give all the details possible, yet it's still up to Congress to make anything happen.  Often, it's best to give ideas, suggestions, and views, then let Congress figure out the details.  That body really hates it when they're handed a detailed manifest.  As for funding, again, that's up to the Senators and Representatives, as they could use a goodly amount of the pork spending in the latest economic package towards paying for these needed programs.  Like two very expensive bridges in Alaska which go basically nowhere, and the indoor rain forest habitat in Iowa.  I'm still trying to work my brain around why a rain forest is needed in Iowa.

As for Federal oversight, that makes sense to me.  Every state was given a lot of money for homeland defense measures in the immediate wake of 9/11.  Even today, there's states which haven't spent a dime of the funds for homeland defense measures.  The states were given the funds sans oversight, and the state beaurocracies took over and made it into a pig's ear.  All the time local agencies were hollering about the Feds not doing enough, their own states were the bottleneck in fund dispersal.

In the end, it really doesn't matter.  As has been proven time and again, it won't matter what President Bush does or tries to do; there'll always be something wrong with it, always something for the anti crowd to frenzy feed.  Does make me wonder though what Senators Pelosi, Boxer and Rangle have done for the common interest and good of this nation in the past 5 years.

Huan Yi
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50 posted 2005-09-16 03:27 PM


“We're going to end poverty by spending money???  Really?  Is that what he said?  Poverty is the result of racism and discrimination?  How well is that playing with conservatives?”

Meanwhile, countless illegal, sorry, undocumented, unWASP
immigrants walk, run, and swim into the country to find jobs,
and do.

"On the other hand, if the populace are, like according to Nagel, not even willing to show up for work on sunny days it won't help them much but it will a lot of workers who will come in from other states. "

Or other countries.


Brad
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since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
51 posted 2005-09-17 09:49 AM


Sullivan on Bush's speech:

quote:
I guess I wasn't the only one who decided to skip watching the president live last night. Across the blogosphere, it seems as if many others decided to catch it later, or on the web, or just read the transcript. Why? Because I knew what was coming: an attempt at spiritual uplift, greased by billions and billions that we don't have, organized by a federal government that, under Bush, cannot seem to organize anything competently. I'm not saying we don't need to spend money on the reconstruction of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast. I'm saying I don't want to hear it from this guy. As a friend of mine commented last night over a drink, I don't hate this president and never have. I'm just sick of him. Sick of the naked politicization of everything (Karl Rove over-seeing reconstruction?); sick of the utter refusal to acknowledge that there is a limit to what the federal government can borrow from this and the next generation; sick of the hijacking of the conservative tradition for a vast increase in the power and size of government, with only a feigned attempt at making it more effective; sick of the glib arrogance and excuses for failure that dot the landscape from Biloxi to Basra. I'm not the only one. See here, here, here, here, here, and more generally here.


and here is an e-mail response (though I don't know if it's a direct response to the above quote or some of the others Sullivan has written):

quote:
You ought to give President Bush some slack. He has had to face more in his presidency than arguably any other in the last 100 years. He inherited a recession, 9/11 happened, the Iraq war and this hurricane. He is only human and I think he is doing better than most.
I don't like the big spending nor the illegal immigration crisis. But I do believe the President is a man of integrity facing outstanding and overwhelming problems in his office.


I don't get it. I just don't get it.

How is it possible to pity this man?

Why the overwhelming need to protect POTUS?


Balladeer
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52 posted 2005-09-18 05:28 PM


A little food for thought...

New Orleans' levees broke on a Tuesday - and Bush had his own boots-on-the-ground just three days later on Friday.

When the Alfred P. Murrah Building exploded on Wednesday morning, April 19, 1995, President Clinton didn't travel to the scene for four full days.

And when he finally arrived, there was no grumbling by troubled pundits about the delay. In fact, Clinton's response to Oklahoma City is remembered to this day as the turning point of his political fortunes.

Writing this week in New York Magazine, John Heilemann recalls Clinton's April 23 speech about the bombing:

"With breathtaking subtlety and nimbleness, Clinton used that act of terrorism to illustrate the dangers of the wild-eyed anti-government rhetoric then in vogue among the Gingrichian GOP — a move that set him on the road to political redemption."

The real difference, of course, was that Clinton had a sympathetic media that was just as anxious as he was to blame the disaster on right wing Republicans. Bush, on the other hand, faces a press corps that couldn't wait to use Katrina against him.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/9/13/110122.shtml


Brad
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53 posted 2005-09-18 11:04 PM


Well, Normon Solomon would disagree with your assessment:
http://alternet.org/columnists/story/25604/


quote:
On Tuesday, the day after Brown resigned, President Bush adjusted the damage-control weaseling. "Katrina exposed serious problems in our response capability at all levels of government," he said at the White House, "and to the extent that the federal government didn't fully do its job right, I take responsibility."

It was a classic hollow statement, meant to sound important and meaningless at the same time. On Wednesday, more than a dozen paragraphs into its story headlined "President Says He's Responsible in Storm Lapses," the New York Times reported: "In saying he took responsibility for any failures of the federal response to the storm, Mr. Bush stopped short of acknowledging that he or anyone else had made mistakes."

So, according to the Times headline, Bush said that "he's responsible" for "storm lapses" -- but, according to the article, Bush did not say "that he or anyone else had made mistakes." Got that?


There are a couple points that I disagree with Solomon on:

1. It was unclear that Brown was going to leave.

2. What's the point of discussing impeachment? The problems, as I hope everyone sees, go beyond just one man.

-------------------------------

Wouldn't the best PR for this President be to have an organization that actually does what it says it's going to do?

To give substance to style?

While some of the explosions we saw from the media were, as you might say, a breath of fresh air (yes, even the ones from Fox), the most damaging are the pictures on the ground combined with the announcement by Brown and Chertoff and others that essentially said, "things are going well".

They weren't and we knew that.

Balladeer
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54 posted 2005-09-18 11:27 PM


So Bush takes responsibilities for any failures and the columnist of a liberal ragsite is complaining that Bush didn't say he made any mistakes. Why am I not surprised?? And why should I care?
Huan Yi
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Waukegan
55 posted 2005-09-19 12:16 PM


Meanwhile the Mayor of New Orleans,
ignoring the feds, rushes to bring on another
crisis.

Just how far is anyone obligated to anyone
who chooses to be stupid?


Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea
56 posted 2005-09-19 05:16 PM


quote:
Why should I care?


I don't know.

quote:
Just how far is anyone obligated to anyone who chooses to be stupid?


I don't know.

Concerning the former, we could discuss whether the article in NYTimes makes any sense. We could discuss whether Bush's statement means anything.

But I see no pressing need to do so.

Concerning the latter, I guess it's a personal thing. And, presumably, Nagin said they could go back and then Bush voiced his concerns (if I understand your reference correctly). Nagin didn't ignore the Feds, the Feds reacted to Nagin.

As far as I can tell.

Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea
57 posted 2005-09-19 05:23 PM


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9156612/

quote:
Under pressure from President Bush and other top federal officials, the mayor Monday suspended the reopening of large portions of the city over the next few days because of the threat of a new round of flooding from a tropical storm.

¡°I am concerned about this hurricane getting in the gulf. ... If we are off, I¡¯d rather err on the side of conservatism to make sure we have everyone out,¡± Mayor Ray Nagin said.




Denise
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since 1999-08-22
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58 posted 2005-09-19 11:34 PM


quote:
When we rebuild we, no doubt, have to include the public housing alongside middle-class working areas so that there is interaction and role models for people -- that's the real problem is the location of the real estate -- having vast areas of nothing but public housing and poverty... I hope that's what he was getting at.


That's probably what he was getting at L.R., at least that is how I understood what he was saying. But sadly, it looks good on paper, but it doesn't work. That is what has been going on in my city for the past several years...close the public housing and move the residents into the middle class working neighborhoods where they will be provided positive lifestyle examples. But it has became obvious that they aren't absorbing the middle class work and lifestyle ethic, and choose instead to retain their own lifestyle. The only thing that has really changed is the location of  the government funded housing. The people's lifestyle and habits weren't changed by their new surroundings, unfortunately. It then became evident that classes might be beneficial in teaching the newly relocated folks the art of being a good neighbor, taking care of one's property, relationship and child rearing counseling, etc., in addition to the already existing grants available for continuing education, but there are few takers and it was deemed a violation of their civil rights to make the classes a requirement for receiving government housing aid. And those of the middle class who can, move on to areas that aren't as highly inundated with the government funded housing for the poor, because the lifestyle that is brought into their neighborhoods is not something that they want themselves or their children exposed to. Former working class neighborhoods are now becomimg what the government was trying to eliminate, regional pockets of poverty, drugs and violence and lawlessness. More and more of our once lovely neighborhoods are becoming ghettos. It just doesn't work.  

A Romantic Heart
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since 1999-09-03
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59 posted 2005-09-21 07:03 AM


Poverty is the result of people sitting on their ass and being lazy.
There is no excuse to be poor in the United States, when other people come from the most poeverty ridden countries can come to America and become doctors or whatever their dream is.It takes determination, not expecting other people to do it for you, or that is is OWED to you. I grew up in a poverty area. 80% sit on their ass and could work, but wanted to get on a check from the government and be like everyone else. I heard stories of how to act like you are mentally retarded so you could get approved for SSI etc. Most lawyers help win the case to get their fair share.So If most people have the mind set that the government takes care of them by sending them a check every month, they have the mindset that the government should take care of everything. I am glad I wanted more, I changed my path, I went to college, moved, did whatever was necessary to get out and change my life. I didn't depend on the government to do it for me. I didn't tell the government to come and build my house, fix this, or that, I did it.

The same for people everywhere, get a job, even if it is min. wage, save, get a car, get a loan, go to college, get a better job. Move to where the jobs are.

I feel sorry for the kids of parents who sit on their ass and deprive their kids of a life. Then those kids grow up learning to get on a check, sell drugs etc. Everyone always wants to take the easy road.

Katrina happened to give the United States a look at how everything in the system needs reformed.

It makes me mad that when I get paid, to see the money being taken out of my check, while driving to work, seeing people on checks from the government, taking their boats out for a spin on the lake. etc.

It makes me mad that we who live in the non danger zone states haved to be taxed for people who choose to live in the hurricane and earthquake areas...over and over again..

Everyone feeds off of the middle class, who is barely getting by to pay their bills and gas to drive to work, health insurance etc.
the working middle class is the bloodline for America..funding the government, the seniors, the poor, paying for medicaid etc.Everyone takes a bite out of us.

I know of families that work that can't take their children to doctors because of insurance, when John Doe down the street is on a check, goes fishing , hunting, etc.(meaning he has the extra money for hobbies, and could be working if he can hunt and do these activities) and gets his childrens medical insurance free from the government.

If I would get all of my pay that I have earned, I could afford my gas to drive to work, pay my bills on time.

If my taxes are to be raised to pay for this hurricane I will be pissed even more, hey why work? when you can get on a check and have it better?

I don't think they should rebuild it either, the land is already being depleted by ocean surges over the years and continues to loose more every day.

Just my opinion from seeing hands on and living in it before.

And one more thing, if I was warned of a hurricane, I would sell everything to get a way of transportation out of there,(jewelry at pawn shops etc) I would call a friend, a cousin, family menber, in other states or a cab company in another city. But, if I wanted to stay and loot thinking I could do this after the storm, maybe I would stay and take my chances?

Brad
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since 1999-08-20
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Jejudo, South Korea
60 posted 2005-09-21 05:42 PM


Wow, I didn't even have to google this one:

quote:
There is no excuse to be poor in the United States, when other people come from the most poverty ridden countries can come to America and become doctors or whatever their dream is.


Now, let me get this straight.

We shouldn't help those who live in America because they live in America?


Capricious
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since 2002-09-14
Posts 89
California, USA
61 posted 2005-09-21 07:16 PM


I think what she was trying to say, Brad, was that if someone could come to the US from a poverty-stricken country with nothing but the shirts on their back and a willingness to work and MAKE something of themselves despite obstacles like language barriers or what have you, there is no excuse for someone BORN in the US to sit on their duffs their entire lives and wait for that check in the mail simply because they can.
Balladeer
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62 posted 2005-09-21 07:58 PM


Yes, of course, Brad recognizes that. He's just being Brad.


Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea
63 posted 2005-09-21 07:58 PM


Yeah, that's exactly what she meant.
Huan Yi
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Waukegan
64 posted 2005-09-21 07:59 PM


But that's the trap.
At a certain level, (that at which you
are comfortable in exchange),
why would you work if you can get paid
for doing nothing?


Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767
Southern Abstentia
65 posted 2005-09-21 08:33 PM


or a better question is why should you work for less than you can get for nothing?

ARH -- if you had all the money you ever earned you would be a theif -- because you would not have repaid to the nation the bill you OWE for providing the institutions and structure that has provided you the opportunity to reach for success -- but, don't think that success is a destination -- it's only a journey - anything could happen at any minute and everything you think you've done by yourself could come crashing down around your ears..


Sunshine
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66 posted 2005-09-21 08:42 PM


Why would I work?  If I could get paid for nothing?

Because I have pride.
And I do not expect something, for nothing.

Alicat
Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094
Coastal Texas
67 posted 2005-09-21 08:49 PM


I'm reminded of a time while a child with my dad.  We were collecting cans for recycling income, watching drunken welfare cheats sucking down beers while their wives worked.  Dad has been working steady since he was 13 and never once went on the government's dole.  So where do all his FICA withholdings go?  Those same drunken welfare cheats.

Wish I could find this game I absolutely loved.  The Great American Welfare Game, where the goal was to have as many illegitament kids as possible and stay on welfare while staying out of the working man's rut.  Once in the rut, it was very hard to leave while you payed out the nose for everything under the sun.

Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea
68 posted 2005-09-21 09:04 PM


I don't get how we moved to social policy while were in between hurricanes but okay.

1. Let's grant that the check (Not sure what people are talking about here -- social security, disability, unemployment, welfare, workfare etc.) is a disincentive, shouldn't we then fix the problem, not pretend the problem is somebody else's problem.

2. Poverty, as LR has already pointed out, is a process in many people's lives. How many who were hit by the hurricane were at a point where they were just about to break free?

Or seniors unable to get free?

3. Again a nod to LR, the self-interested reason to help others is that there might be a time when you need help.

4. Finally, I have no idea where a no danger zone is in the United States or anywhere else for that matter. If there is or if there were such a place, I suspect that
if we all common sensically moved there, it would look very much like we were all standing on Zanzibar.

With some already knee deep in the water.



Ron
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69 posted 2005-09-21 09:37 PM


I don't think anyone who has to ask that question, John, is likely to ever understand the answer.

I was raised in an industrial area, a squalid reflection of not too distant Detroit, where an education beyond high school was rare. People didn't fare too well a lot of the time, and many decades later, very little in that city of some sixty thousand has changed. David, the cousin closest in age to me, lives today in the same cinder-block building Uncle Bud built as a garage roughly 45 years ago, then moved his family of eight into while he saved to build a house to go along with it. The garage has been renovated several times, but the house was never built. I'm not sure when the family stopped talking about it.

I saw a lot of poverty growing up. I don't recall seeing a lot of laziness. Best I can tell, from personal experience and a few classes taken in college, being poor has very little to do with how hard someone works. Whether you're Uncle Bud or Uncle Scrooge McDuck, quality of life isn't defined by how much you make, but rather by how much you get to keep. My uncle washed windows for a living, one of those guys you see hanging on eight feet of wired scaffolding twenty stories over your head, and it paid pretty decent money (if only 'cause most wouldn't do it). Six kids put a good dent in his paycheck, and a penchant for whiskey usually finished it off by the time Monday rolled around.

Poverty isn't about working hard. It's about expectation. Uncle Bud never had much because no one ever convinced him he deserved to have more.

Temptress
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70 posted 2005-09-26 11:17 PM


A Romantic Heart,
You said...

"It makes me mad that we who live in the non danger zone states haved to be taxed for people who choose to live in the hurricane and earthquake areas...over and over again.."

I don't honestly believe there are really any "non danger zone states" anywhere.

There are:
landslides, earthquakes, floods, fires, droughts,tornadoes, hurricanes, and I am sure lots more things that nature and even other humans can throw at us.  

I moved to Gulfport because I love it here. I'm not leaving permanently simply because we have hurricanes here. I'd be running from the hurricanes possibly to an earthquake or a tornado. Nature is EVERYWHERE.

Did I get assistance from FEMA due to the fact that my apartment was practically destroyed? Yes, I did. (Did I expect it? No, I didn't.) Did you or anyone else contribute to that by being taxed on the wages that you receive. Yes, I am sure that happened; but I work too. I also pay taxes, so I am sure that over the years I have been taxed like everyone else. Don't worry. There are people who receieved assistance here who work very hard and pay taxes just like you do.

Jenn

"I want to heal, I want to feel, like I'm close to something real"
-Linkin Park_

Huan Yi
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71 posted 2005-09-29 06:02 PM


“Reports of murder, rape and violence among the thousands trapped in New Orleans' shelters in the wake of Hurricane Katrina shocked the world.

The city's police chief spoke of babies being raped. Mayor Ray Nagin told of Superdome evacuees "watching hooligans killing people, raping people".

Now, a month later, officials say many of the accounts were probably false or greatly exaggerated in a time of chaos. “

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4292114.stm



Tim
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72 posted 2005-09-29 09:47 PM


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

wait for the truth to emerge

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"which will come to you how? via osmosis?"

people believe what they want to believe, and yes LR, I would rather rely on osmosis than a large number of sources many people are more than willing to believe...

and I still say it is the best policy in a crisis situation to wait until the truth emerges

Balladeer
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73 posted 2005-09-29 10:04 PM


Came out in the news yesterday that 4 people had died in the shelter....2 from natural causes, 1 drug overdose and one who took a header from an upper level....so much for the news that shocked the world.

There it is, Brad, in reference to your philosophy thread.

Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea
74 posted 2005-09-29 11:21 PM


I'm not sure I understand what's going on here.

Did anybody check the first link I started with?

Does this exonerate those who blamed the victim?

Does that mean Nagin should get off because the buses weren't needed?

How about Blanco and the Red Cross/doctors thing?

And what about the Feds and their promises, their promises, their promises?

I think everybody feels better/relieved that the current numbers were smaller than the projections (remember 911? remember Chernobyl?), but I don't see how this makes our government actions any less reprehensible.

Last time I checked the number of Katrina casualties were over a 1000.


Alicat
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75 posted 2005-09-29 11:40 PM


Found it mildly amusing why there were no questions directed to Governor Blanco about her own screwups during her Congressional testimony.  Seems she had requested, and was granted, that no questions about her own actions be given.

Go Fig.

Balladeer
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76 posted 2005-09-29 11:56 PM


That WAS pretty hilarious. When she sidestepped the issue they appluaded her for not getting into the "blame game". When Brown was on the day before, the "blame game" was all they were interested in. Don't these people realize how transparent they are??
Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea
77 posted 2005-09-30 08:31 PM


Is this what you guys are referring to:

quote:
Governor Kathleen Blanco, D-La., testifying before Senate Finance Committee on Capital Hill, Wednesday, Sept. 28, 2005 in Washington. Blanco asked Congress for help in rebuilding her devastated state, saying Hurricanes Katrina and Rita 'knocked us down but they did not knock us out.' Blanco in her opening statement did not mention former FEMA director Michael Brown, who on Tuesday had blamed state and local officials in Louisiana for not responding appropriately to the storm. (AP Photo/Pablo Martinez Monsivais)


Yeah, those republicans can be such pansies.

Balladeer
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78 posted 2005-10-01 01:25 AM


Brad, while you are doing your research, why not check on the questions he was asked which caused him to respond with those comments...you know, the questions they did NOT ask the governor.

What's that? They were not there to attack FEMA? Oh, really.....

Local Rebel
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79 posted 2005-10-01 07:36 PM


quote:

people believe what they want to believe, and yes LR, I would rather rely on osmosis than a large number of sources many people are more than willing to believe...

and I still say it is the best policy in a crisis situation to wait until the truth emerges



I absolutely agree that people believe what they want to believe and I would go one step further and say unequivocally that people want you to believe what they want you to believe.

I play chess with my ten-year-old son not because I delight in beating him -- he doesn't even understand the nuances of the game let alone how to develop strategy or to be able to appreciate a well developed position.  It is rather in the hopes that he learns how to think and understand that I invest my time in him and much for the same reason I've hopefully not wasted a good deal of discretionary time for the last five years here attempting to focus on developing positions based on facts and, certainly we have to vet sources and understand what they are saying to us.

The underlying question is Tim -- what do you believe?  

If we look at the FACTS that are presented in the BBC article that Huan posted: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4292114.stm we first look at the headline itself and realize that the word 'overstated' is printed in quotation marks thusly:  

New Orleans violence 'Overstated'

So the fact that is being stated is not that violence was overstated, but that some people are saying the violence was overstated.  These come from the same officials who, before, reported the violence initially -- who have said all along that there were no official reports of rape.

Other facts reported in the article;

quote:

Rape crisis centres have been "deluged" with people needing help, the Louisiana Foundation Against Sexual Assault says, but many victims have been unable to reach police to report the crimes.

"They are more concerned right now with 'where are we going to sleep, how are we going to eat, where are we going to get money?'," executive director Judy Benitez said.

"We are really trying to stress to police that just because a rape hasn't been reported, doesn't mean it didn't happen."



Other reports from people on the ground, who were there, still say the violence was going on --albeit eyewitness accounts are sometimes some of the worst vantage points as anyone who has ever checked an instant replay can attest -- and here the statment is strictly heresay --but still -- the preponderance of the testimony is strong;

quote:

Ane Daniels, a 48-year-old hotel cleaner, told the BBC she was warned by a young boy not to take refuge in the Superdome.

"He said, 'don't go up there ma'am - they are killing people and they are raping people'. And if a 12 -year-old boy is saying that, you know something is up."



and yet others on the ground say;

quote:

"I think the US media are just covering up what really happened because this city lives on tourism," said Mike Maver, an Illinois firefighter who has been assisting the relief effort.

"And if the tourists are frightened and don't come back, this city will never survive."



Now I'm not seeing how any of this impeaches the story I presented by an investigative reporter who obtained his information from the SWAT team commander and officers on the ground and I am unaware that any of them have stepped forward to disavow that article.  If so, please direct me there.

But, from this latest spate of spin, as in all instances we have to wonder who gains from the information?  When it was only thought that rapes, murders, and mayhem served to 'blame game' the Democratic administrations in Louisiana and New Orleans, people like Republican hatchet man Thomas Lipscomb were all to quick to jump on the story; http://www.suntimes.com/output/otherviews/cst-edt-ref09.html

quote:

The rapes and needless deaths that took place there are his [Nagin's] responsibility as well. As late as Sunday, 80 armed policemen were too cowardly to enter the Convention Center after reports of the savagery inside. Troops finally searching the Convention Center on Monday found an elderly man and a young girl, battered to death, among the corpses.



However, after it became clear that lawlessness in New Orleans cast pale over the Bush administration then the stories started changing immediately.  

So what position do you want to stake out Tim?  Do you want to say that the women who are 'deluging' rape crisis centers are just going there to have fun?  They're just partisan puppets who are being paid by, I don't know.. China?  How bizarre do you want to get with a rationalization to try to in effect say...

'Move along, nothing to see here people.  Move along...'

Ron
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80 posted 2005-10-01 08:10 PM


quote:
Do you want to say that the women who are 'deluging' rape crisis centers are just going there to have fun?

You're assuming, LR, the report of a deluge is necessarily accurate? I, for one, find it curious that people too busy surviving to contact the police nonetheless find the time to contact Judy Benitez. In poetry, a good metaphor is a powerful tool, but Ms. Benitez would be more convincing if she skipped the deluge and gave us some real numbers. If we're going to be skeptics, let's at least be consistent skeptics and question everyone's veracity equally.

One person raped is, obviously, one person too many, and a clue that something horrible went wrong. It's not, however, a deluge.

Local Rebel
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81 posted 2005-10-01 08:26 PM


Certainly Ron I agree which is why I maintained the quotation marks.  

I don't, however find it curious that people haven't been reporting rapes, officially to the New Orleans police.  They aren't in New Orleans.  They're scattered across the country in shelters.

Trying to assemble an accurate count would prove to be impracticable as well merely due to the fact that rape is the most under-reported crime.

We know that King Arthur wasn't an enchanted monarch who pulled a sword from a stone -- but, we do know that these stories have a basis in fact -- and , it is unlikely that time is going to bring us closer to the truth as Tim would have -- rather the opposite is the norm.

Ron
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82 posted 2005-10-01 10:44 PM


quote:
We know that King Arthur wasn't an enchanted monarch who pulled a sword from a stone -- but, we do know that these stories have a basis in fact ...

No, I think we know that some stories have a basis in fact. I don't think we can conclude, for example, that if Neil Armstrong didn't make his famous walk in a Hollywood studio, it just means the studio was probably in NYC. Some stories have a basis only in fiction.

BTW, Arthur wasn't enchanted until *after* he pulled a sword from a stone. Before that, he was just pure of heart. Camelot was real.

Local Rebel
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83 posted 2005-10-01 11:36 PM


quote:

Some stories have a basis only in fiction.



Neil Armstrong DID take a walk...


Tim
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84 posted 2005-10-02 10:40 PM


What is my position?  I don't know how I can make it much clearer.  I think in a crisis situation you need to wait until the facts emerge to find out more fully what actually happened rather than what media and rumors indicate happened.

Apparently the major New Orleans newspaper, the L.A. times, and some television outlets now acknowledge widespread reporting of unsubstantiated rumors. Certainly the individuals in authority making the claims to the national media are now indicating they were reporting rumor and not fact.

The internet is positive in that you can have access to learn a lot of opinions and interpretation of facts.  It does not guarantee your ability to think for yourself.  

If you take a position and then surf the net to find something to support your position, you can easily succeed.

The small boy reference... not really worth the effort to discuss as serious fact or proof of such...

The rape crisis lady... ( and I have every respect for those in her position, I started one of the first victim witness units in our state and worked with the local crisis center for twenty years) use some thought here...  what does she say, not only in her quote, but in her other statements...

crisis centers are swamped...  which centers? how many centers are not operating in New Orleans and therefore their caseload is being covered by small outlying centers.  were these centers swamped before?  Are they treating individuals other than rape victims?  Domestic violence, just people needing help?
Are they handling any cases of allegations of rape from the convention center or superdome?

She said right after the hurricane she did not know how many if any rapes and murders had occured at the two locations.  She knows a substantiated report of one rape occuring that did not occur at either location but out in the City.

She says the rapes had to have occured because with that many people together rapes had to have happened and that rapes are underreported.  I don't doubt a substantial number of rapes are not reported.  I doubt brutal rapes of small children in confined areas with thousands of people present fit the same profile of a date rape or serial rapist and that such child rapes are seriously underreported.

I have dealt with rape, murder and child sexual assault victims most of my adult life.  With rampant anarchy, rape and murder occuring, I would honestly believe we would have a little more hard evidence at this point.
Were there murders and rapes in the two locations?  Possibly, but we still are lacking victims and/ or eye witnesses, although there is some eyewitness evidence as to one homicide during a fight.

Because rapes and murders might have happened they are to be reported as fact?  

What happened at the Superdome and Convention center is tragic, no one doubts that fact, but the evidence just is not there to substantiate the wild rumors that were reported by the media.

As to the swat team?

"Asked about the muzzle-flash story last week, Compass said, "That really happened" to Winn's SWAT team at the Convention Center.

But Winn, when asked about alleged shootouts in a separate interview, said his unit saw muzzle flashes and heard gunshots only one time. Despite aggressively frisking a number of suspects, the team recovered no weapons. His unit never found anyone who had been shot."

But then who knows, maybe as insinutated, there is a conspiracy amongst New Orleans authorities and the media to revive the French Quarter and Madigras and cover up what actually happened.

Balladeer
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85 posted 2005-10-03 11:43 AM


I received an article which appears to me to sum things up pretty accurately.........

In his 1935 State of the Union Address, FDR spoke to a nation mired in the Depression, but still marinated in conservative values:

"Continued dependence" upon welfare, said FDR, "induces a spiritual disintegration fundamentally destructive to the national fiber. To dole out relief in this way is to administer a narcotic, a subtle destroyer of the human spirit."

Behind FDR's statement was the conviction that, while the government must step in in an emergency, in normal times, men provide the food, clothing and shelter for their families.

And we did, until the war pulled us out of the Depression and a postwar boom made us, in John K. Galbraith's phrase, The Affluent Society. By the 1960s, America, the richest country on earth, was growing ever more prosperous. But with the 1964 landslide of LBJ, liberalism triumphed and began its great experiment.

Behind the Great Society was a great idea: to lift America's poor out of poverty, government should now take care of all their basic needs. By giving the poor welfare, subsidized food, public housing and free medical care, government will end poverty in America.

At the Superdome and New Orleans Convention Center, we saw the failure of 40 years of the Great Society. No sooner had Katrina passed by and the 17th Street levee broke than hundreds of young men who should have taken charge in helping the aged, the sick and the women with babies to safety took to the streets to shoot, loot and rape. The New Orleans police, their numbers cut by deserters who left their posts to look after their families, engaged in running gun battles all day long to stay alive and protect people.

It was the character and conduct of its people that makes the New Orleans disaster unique. After a hurricane, people's needs are simple: food, water, shelter, medical attention. But they can be hard to meet. People buried in rubble or hiding in attics of flooded homes are tough to get to. But, even with the incompetence of the mayor and governor, and the torpor of federal officials, this was possible.

Coast Guard helicopters were operating Tuesday. There were roads open into the city for SUVs, buses and trucks. While New Orleans was flooded, the water was stagnant. People walked through to the convention center and Superdome. The flimsiest boat could navigate.   Even if government dithered for days -- what else is new -- this does not explain the failure of the people themselves.

Between 1865 and 1940, the South -- having lost a fourth of its best and bravest in battle, devastated by war, mired in poverty -- was famous for the hardy self-reliance of her people, black and white.

In 1940, hundreds of British fishermen and yachtsmen sailed back and forth daily under fire across a turbulent 23-mile Channel to rescue 300,000 soldiers from Dunkirk. How do we explain to the world that a tenth that number of Americans could not be reached in four days from across a stagnant pond?

The real disaster of Katrina was that society broke down. An entire community could not cope. Liberalism, the idea that good intentions and government programs can build a Great Society, was exposed as fraud. After trillions of tax dollars for welfare, food stamps, public housing, job training and education have poured out since 1965, poverty remains pandemic. But today, when the police vanish, the community disappears and men take to the streets to prey on women and the weak.

Stranded for days in a pool of fetid water, almost everyone waited for the government to come save them. They screamed into the cameras for help, and the reporters screamed into the cameras for help, and the "civil rights leaders" screamed into the cameras that Bush was responsible and Bush was a racist.

Americans were once famous for taking the initiative, for having young leaders rise up to take command in a crisis. See any of that at the Superdome? Sri Lankans and Indonesians, far poorer than we, did not behave like this in a tsunami that took 400 times as many lives as Katrina has thus far.

We are the descendants of men and women who braved the North Atlantic in wooden boats to build a country in a strange land. Our ancestors traveled thousands of miles in covered wagons,  through hostile lands exhibiting far more bravery than those cowards preying on New Orleans' poor.

Watching that performance in the Crescent City, it seems clear: We are not the people our parents were. And what are all our Lords Temporal now howling for? Though government failed at every level, they want more government.

FDR was right. A "spiritual disintegration" has overtaken us. Government-as-first provider, the big idea of the Great Society, has proven to be "a narcotic, a subtle destroyer of the human spirit."  Either we get off this narcotic, or it kills us

Ron
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86 posted 2005-10-03 03:01 PM


Give me a break, Mike.

I could just as easily argue that fighting one unjust war after another has brought about your "spiritual disintegration." Maybe it all started the day Neil Armstrong walked on the moon, a sure sign we should never have left the Earth God saw fit to give us? More likely, spiritual disintegration is simply the inevitable result of a society where the rich get richer and the poor just get screwed.

Most in the Philosophy forum will attest that I'm far from being a proponent of Socialism. I happen to agree with FDR, at least on an economic level. But I'm also not a proponent of sloppy thinking. When someone wants to link Cause to Effect, I generally like to see a little more than unsupported speculation.

Brad
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87 posted 2005-10-03 06:08 PM


quote:
At the Superdome and New Orleans Convention Center, we saw the failure of 40 years of the Great Society.


Wow!

quote:
No sooner had Katrina passed by and the 17th Street levee broke than hundreds of young men who should have taken charge in helping the aged, the sick and the women with babies to safety took to the streets to shoot, loot and rape.


I thought this was disputed.

At any rate, doesn't this mean they didn't trust the government?

quote:
The New Orleans police, their numbers cut by deserters who left their posts to look after their families, engaged in running gun battles all day long to stay alive and protect people.


And we should respect those that helped those to stay alive and to protect people.

Yet, you seem to condone deserters who 'go to look after their families'?

I don't get it, there are many reports, many first hand tales of precisely what you seem to be saying didn't happen.

Katrina Report

quote:
The confidential report, which has been seen by The Independent, details how funds for flood control were diverted to other projects, desperately needed National Guards were stuck in Iraq and how military personnel had to "sneak off post" to help with relief efforts because their commander had refused permission.


Or what about Charmaine Neville's report? The link is by LR on the Sullivan thread.

My point is that many people, as individuals, did exactly what you claim didn't happen here. Not all of course.

But I suspect we'll hear more "human interest" stories over the next few months.

While I can't claim the anti-socialist bug but that Ron claims, a healthy suspicion of government, of all government, is not a bad thing.

Isn't it about time to rethink support for politicians, democrats or republicans, who state you can trust us, who say we will protect you, who spend tremendous amounts of money on projects that don't work, and then turn around and state that government is the problem, not the solution but trust us anyway?


Balladeer
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88 posted 2005-10-03 06:59 PM


Obviously you took this as a political issue on my part and, reading the article, I can understand why....but it wasn't. I happen to agree with the article and I would have agreed reardless what political party was in power, either in Washington or Louisiana. Reading the news reports, I could see a distinct difference between the actions of the people in New Orleans as opposed to the people on the gulf coast and the people in Texas. If you don't see any evidence of people screaming, "Government, do something NOW!!" instead of taking action and responsiblilty, then I question your eyesight. If you don't see evidence of people preferring to live off the handouts of the government instead of finding jobs, I question it even further. Within one day the people in the shelters were screaming for food and water. Why didn't they take any? They knew a hurricane was coming. How much common sense does it take to fill at least a few bottle up with water and grab some cans of Spam, or beenie-weenies or anything which would provide food for a couple of days? Don't tell me poor. Even poor can fill bottles of water. No,  they prefer to just say, "Government, take care of me" in the face of one of the most devastating hurricanes in the history of the country. The hurricane was almost blameless. It was the government that was evil. You may claim that ist's easy for me to say - I wasn't there and you would be right. But I am HERE, and here we have had our share of hurricanes headed our way and I can assure you that almost everyone here, regardless of their financial situation, is prepared enough to make it through a couple of days with the basics. It's what you do when facing hurricanes. This is not the only incident of this happening. 9-11 was another....people screaming at the government, demanding money, getting money, demanding more as if the terrorist act was incidental - the governement was the real enemy.

This article claims that we have gone from a society of responsibility assuming people to a society of take care of me and I mean now people....I don't disagree with that. It also states that there is a moral breakdown when rioting and looting begins seconds after a tragedy and I don't disagree with that, either. For those of you shocked at the suggestion of moral breakdown in New Orleans, you obviously know nothing of New Orleans.

There will be good stories, too....heroic stories of normal people doing heroic things, stories of people fending for themselves and doing what needed to be done instead of waiting for someone to do things for them.....in New Orleans these people seemed to be a minority.

Ron
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89 posted 2005-10-03 07:52 PM


quote:
This article claims that we have gone from a society of responsibility assuming people to a society of take care of me and I mean now people.

Are you like that, Mike? Do you have a lot of friends or family who are like that? Perhaps you think most of the people posting in the forums are like that?

Society, of course, is comprised of people. You, your friends and family, others much like those posting here. If society has gone to hell in a hand basket, clearly that includes these people, too.

Funny thing is, that's not the way I see it.

Were there muzzle flashes witnessed in the Convention Center? I honestly don't know if there was or wasn't. I do know, however, how many men it takes to hold a rifle.

Prophecies of doom and gloom certainly aren't unusual in the wake of tragedy. Trouble is, Mike, this article does much more than claim we've gone from a society of responsibility to one of dependence. It also tries to assign a Cause to that alleged Effect, based on absolutely NOTHING except that one preceded the other. It doesn't even try to substantiate its argument, relying instead on assumption, tired cliché, and meaningless rhetoric.

I'll be the first to admit I get frightened when pockets of our world resort to violence and replace self-sufficiency with political demands. I get even more frightened, however, when I see intelligent, educated people plumb forgetting how to think.

Balladeer
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90 posted 2005-10-03 08:35 PM


Happily I can say I am not like that, Ron. I have been out of work several times in my life and broke more times than I can count but I have never filed for welfare or taken food stamps..but that's my own personal philosophy. Does it exist and have I seen it? Oh, yes. One of the perks (?) of being on the police force is that you get to see a lot of it. You may have never heard of anyone saying, "Why should I work? With the welfare payments and food stamps I make as much as I would actually working" but I can assure you I have and it is not uncommon among the poor.  You may not believe in the cause and effect presented in the article but I do.

"Continued dependence" upon welfare, said FDR, "induces a spiritual disintegration fundamentally destructive to the national fiber. To dole out relief in this way is to administer a narcotic, a subtle destroyer of the human spirit."

Behind the Great Society was a great idea: to lift America's poor out of poverty, government should now take care of all their basic needs. By giving the poor welfare, subsidized food, public housing and free medical care, government will end poverty in America.

The real disaster of Katrina was that society broke down. An entire community could not cope.

After trillions of tax dollars for welfare, food stamps, public housing, job training and education have poured out since 1965, poverty remains pandemic.

today, when the police vanish, the community disappears and men take to the streets to prey on women and the weak.

Government-as-first provider, the big idea of the Great Society, has proven to be "a narcotic, a subtle destroyer of the human spirit.


There is not a statement there I disagree with. Watch a blackout hit New York and see what happens in seconds.

Instead of decaring that people don't think, please consider the possibility that they do but just possibly different than you.

Ron
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91 posted 2005-10-03 09:41 PM


quote:
... today, when the police vanish, the community disappears and men take to the streets to prey on women and the weak.

And you're actually suggesting, Mike, that never happened prior to LBJ?  

In my opinion, morality has absolutely nothing to do with income levels.

Give those who take to the streets a little better income and they'll simply prey on the weak in a court room instead. The man who won't work because he has welfare and food stamps is not greatly different from the factory worker who coasts through every shift he can and steals from his employer any time the chance presents itself. Those who scream their demands at government are brothers to those who feel cheated when their jobs are moved to Mexico. Greed and short-sightedness aren't caused by poverty, not will they ever be solved by prosperity.

Personally, I think socialism doesn't work because of basic human nature. But no way do I accept that it can change human nature.

Balladeer
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92 posted 2005-10-03 10:52 PM


I actually don't see anywhere, Ron, where I suggested that never happened before LBJ. I would, however, bet dollars to doughnuts that it happens a lot more often in the 2000's than it did in the 50's.

As far as morality having nothing to do with income levels, you obviously don't feel that family situations has anything to do with how a child is raised. I happen to feel it is very important.


Behind the Great Society was a great idea: to lift America's poor out of poverty, government should now take care of all their basic needs. By giving the poor welfare, subsidized food, public housing and free medical care, government will end poverty in America.

Did it end poverty? Of course not...but it did get them accustomed to having money handed over to them. Has it solved the problems? No, you don't solve problems by throwing money at it....you simply make the people receiving the money dependant on the throwers...and you give them the right to demand that the money keeps getting thrown.

I get the feeling from your comments to me that you think I have a political agenda with this. I don't. FDR, LBJ, liberals, conservatives - I could care less who did what. The fact is that it was done and we are paying the price for it. Take away a man's need to work and you take away his pride and self-respect. Take that away and you have him running down the street with a 56" flat screen color tv while people are dying around him. We are paying the price now...

Ron
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93 posted 2005-10-03 11:26 PM


quote:
As far as morality having nothing to do with income levels, you obviously don't feel that family situations has anything to do with how a child is raised. I happen to feel it is very important.

While I agree the family is important to how a child is raised, I don't think it depends on income levels, either, Mike. I suspect Abraham Lincoln, and many many more, would likely agree. Again, I think you're confusing cause and effect, first with a Post Hoc fallacy, and now with a Joint Effect fallacy.

quote:
Take away a man's need to work and you take away his pride and self-respect.

Really? So, you think Bill Gates, Martha Stewart, Warren Buffet -- and, of course, George Bush -- have no pride and self-respect? For that matter, since I'm retired and have no need to work any longer, I guess you'd have to add me to that list.

I'd like to think that a man's worth is tied not to his need to work, but rather to his willingness to work. That, I believe, is one of those things instilled long before anyone is ever old enough to go on the dole.

quote:
Take that away and you have him running down the street with a 56" flat screen color tv while people are dying around him.

And I'd be willing to bet dollars to doughnuts, Mike, that most of the looters in New Orleans had jobs. You know, like Al Capone did. Or like Kenneth Lay did.



Balladeer
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94 posted 2005-10-04 12:15 PM


Yes, Ron, Abraham Lincoln came from a log cabin and so did others but that does not negate the fact that poverty households are much more likely to produce a different morality or view of life...and there a lot more of them than there are Abraham Lincolns.

I'm afraid I don;t understand your Bill Gates comparisons at all. Yes, Bill Gates, Martha Stewart, Warren Buffet - and you - don't have to work but you did once. That is where you make the comparison, at the starting point, not at the end where the people who did work have managed to become successful enough to not have to. Want another comparison? How about the silver spooners? How many of them screw up their lives and have the morals of snakes? We read about them all the time.

...and you may want to reconsider your wager,  Ron, before I go over to Krispy Kreme and buy all the doughnuts they've got. Check out the unemployment figures of New Orleans, at least

Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
95 posted 2005-10-05 07:59 PM


Things one might have noticed while watching media coverage of the recent hurricanes. There must be some explanation other than "It's all Bush's fault!"

1. Texas: Productive industrious state run by conservative Republicans.

    Louisiana: Government dependent welfare state run by liberal Democrats.

2. Texas: Residents take responsibility to protect and evacuate themselves.

    Louisiana: Residents wait for government to protect and evacuate them.

3. Texas: Local and state officials take responsibility for protecting their citizens and property.

    Louisiana: Local and state officials blame federal government for not protecting their citizens and property.

4. Texas: Command and control remains in place to preserve order.

    Louisiana: Command and control collapses allowing lawlessness.

5. Texas: Law enforcement officers remain on duty to protect city.

    Louisiana: Law enforcement officers desert their posts to protect themselves.

6. Texas: Local police watch for looting.

    Louisiana: Local police participate in looting.

7. Texas: Law and order remains in control, 8 looters tried it, 8 looters arrested.

    Louisiana: Anarchy and lawlessness breaks out, looters take over city, no arrests, criminals with guns have to be shot by federal troops.

8. Texas: Considerable damage caused by hurricane.

    Louisiana: Considerable damage caused by looters.

9. Texas: Flood barriers hold preventing cities from flooding.

    Louisiana: Flood barriers fail due to lack of maintenance allowing city to flood.

10. Texas: Orderly evacuation away from threatened areas, few remain.

      Louisiana: 25,000 fail to evacuate, are relocated to another flooded area.

11. Texas: Citizens evacuate with personal 3 day supply of food and water.

      Louisiana: Citizens fail to evacuate with 3 day supply of food and water, do without it for the next 4 days.

12. Texas: FEMA brings in tons of food and water for evacuees. State officials provide accessible distribution points.

      Louisiana: FEMA brings in tons of food and water for evacuees. State officials prevent citizens from reaching distribution points and vice versa.

13. Louisiana: Media focuses on poor blacks in need of assistance, blames Bush.

      Texas: Media can’t find poor blacks in need of assistance, looking for something else to blame on Bush.

14. Texas: Coastal cities suffer some infrastructure damage, Mayors tell residents to stay away until ready for repopulation, no interference from federal officials.

      Louisiana: New Orleans is destroyed, Mayor asks residents to return home as another hurricane approaches, has to be overruled by federal officials.

15. Louisiana: Over 400 killed by storm, flooding and crime.

      Texas: 24 killed in bus accident on highway during evacuation, no storm related deaths.

16. Texas: Jailed prisoners are relocated to other detention facilities outside the storm area.

      Louisiana: Jailed prisoners are set free to prey on city shops, residents, and homes.

17. Texas: Local and state officials work with FEMA and Red Cross in recovery operations.

      Louisiana: Local and state officials obstruct FEMA and Red Cross from aiding in recovery operations.

18. Texas: Local and state officials demonstrate leadership in managing disaster areas.

      Louisiana: Local and state officials fail to demonstrate leadership, require federal government to manage disaster areas.

19. Texas: Fuel deliveries can't keep up with demand, some run out of gas on highway, need help from fuel tankers before storm arrives.

      Louisiana: Motorists wait till storm hits and electrical power fails. Cars run out of gas at gas stations that can‘t pump gas. Gas in underground tanks mixes with flood waters.

20. Texas: Mayors move citizens out of danger.

      Louisiana: Mayor moves himself and family to Dallas.

21. Texas: Mayors continue public service announcements and updates on television with Governor's backing and support.

      Louisiana: Mayor cusses, governor cries, senator threatens president with violence on television, none of them have a clue what went wrong or who‘s responsible.

22. Louisiana: Democratic Senator says FEMA was slow in responding to 911 calls from Louisiana citizens.

Texas: Republican Senator says "when you call 911, the phone doesn't ring in Washington, it rings here at the local responders".

What if state and local elected officials were forced to depend on themselves and their own resources instead of calling for help from the federal government? Texas cities would be back up and running in a few days. Louisiana cities would still be under water next month.

Some of this is, of course, pretty political but there is a whole lot of truth there too.

Balladeer
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96 posted 2005-10-05 09:24 PM


This what you're saying, Pete?


Brad
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since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
97 posted 2005-10-05 10:14 PM


Wow, if I didn't know better, you'd think the whole thing was staged.

But let's not forget, Katrina came first.

Hope and pray that the next time you're in a hurricane zone that a democrat county gets hit first and that you vote republican.




quote:
15. Louisiana: Over 400 killed by storm, flooding and crime.

      Texas: 24 killed in bus accident on highway during evacuation, no storm related deaths.

Ritaanddeath

quote:
Preparing for and running from Hurricane Rita proved far more deadly in Texas than the storm itself, as the death toll in Texas rose to about 100 in early counts.

Rita's aftermath also claimed the lives of people who tried to run generators inside their homes and died of carbon monoxide poisoning.

The storm, a Category 3 hurricane that made landfall early Saturday at Sabine Pass, actually killed very few, according to preliminary measures.

Getting an official tally of deaths related directly or indirectly to Rita may take weeks, said Robert Black, a spokesman for Gov. Rick Perry.

"At some point there will be a lot of totals on a lot of the things that we've done," Black said. "A lot of the areas that are still without power, water, they're keeping notes on napkins."


Balladeer
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98 posted 2005-10-05 10:40 PM


Keying in on a bus accident should be beneath you, Brad. At least they were trying to evacuate and I doubt you know anything about the accident - and the deaths were cause by oxygen tanks on board exploding. Perhaps you think Bush cut them off and caused the bus to swerve?

Perhaps we should discuss then the charges being brought up the workers of the nursing home that euthanized over thirty people in new Orleans at the arrival of the hurricane?

Why on God's green earth would you go after a bus accident. If they hadn't tried to evacuate they might still be alive, is that it? Your logic is always a sight to behold...

Tim
Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794

99 posted 2005-10-05 11:31 PM


of sixty nursing homes subject to mandatory evacuation because of Katrina, only 21 evacuated.
In one Catholic nursing home, the nuns made a decision not to evacuate having ridden out numerous hurricanes before...  22 people died.  The nuns made a decision evacuation was more dangerous to their charges than staying put.  They made the wrong decison.  The nuns haven't been charged yet.

Balladeer
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100 posted 2005-10-05 11:41 PM


Thanks, Tim. I had been sure I'd heard on the news charges were brought up instead of pending...appreciate the clarification.
Balladeer
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101 posted 2005-10-06 12:01 PM


appears I may have been right, after all, Tim..

United Press International

35th body found in Louisiana nursing home

BATON ROUGE, La., Oct. 3 (UPI) -- Authorities have discovered another body at the New Orleans-area nursing home that failed to evacuate its residents from Hurricane Katrina.

The recent discovery brings the total number who died there to 35.

"In the St. Rita Nursing Home just this weekend we found another body who we think is a nursing home patient, a lady who had a feeding tube in her stomach," Charles Foti Jr. told CNN's "American Morning."

Mable and Salvador Mangano Sr., the home's husband-and-wife owners, are charged with 34 counts of negligent homicide.

In all, 13 nursing homes are under criminal investigation for failure to evacuate their patients before the Category 4 storm made landfall August 29.

The attorney general said the failure to evacuate resulted in the deaths of perhaps more than 100 senior citizens in Louisiana.



Tim
Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794

102 posted 2005-10-06 08:11 AM


I didn't make myself too clear Balladeer and I apologize.  They charged the one couple as you indicate, but the same tragic situation existed in numerous facilities including a different one operated by an order of nuns.

It has been indicated in the case to which you refer that the owners had brought their own family, including their own grandchildren to the facility, to ride out the storm as they had done on previous occasions.

The couple you reference may well deserve to be prosecuted and convicted, but I was just indicating there is a lot more to the story that is indicated in the press.


Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
103 posted 2005-10-06 08:05 PM


quote:
Why on God's green earth would you go after a bus accident. If they hadn't tried to evacuate they might still be alive, is that it? Your logic is always a sight to behold...


I didn't.


serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

104 posted 2005-10-07 06:02 PM


I have to confess, first of all, I didn't read all of this.

It hurts my head and breaks my heart.

In my personal thread in announcements, which pretty much outlined my own actions as an "evacuee" (bosh--"refugee" was the proper word to begin with, as I had no place to go)

But if you wanna blame anybody, blame everybody.

Start with the local parish (county) officials, most of whom had to be over ridden to call for mandatory evacuation.

(My first reaction at seven a.m Sunday morning preceding Monday's Katrina landfall, was disbelief--I had never heard the words "mandatory evacuation" in my life--simply because evacuation was previously thought impossible, at best difficult at that point.)

But? I always said, "mandatory" evacuation, means mandatory--and fortunately for me and my family we had the resources and the road atlas acumen to get the hell outta there.

I don't think I understood what we were up against. It took us four hours to get out of the Greater New Orleans Area, and worse? We traveled Highway 90--which followed the path of the storm.

It was somewhere just outside of Morgan City that I understood how serious the situation was...we stopped for gas, and I took my son inside, to buy whatever foodstuffs we could.

It was the first time in my life I had ever been in a store while it was being looted.

My hat is off to the gentleman who risked his life and business to sell gasoline to the evacuees, and I did indeed stand in line to pay for twenty bucks worth of crackers and energy drinks.

The outer bands of the storms were just hitting, and folks, we were scared.

I had previously thought of spending the night at a rest stop, until I saw that crowd.

It wasn't pretty.

I knew that there was no such thing as a "rest" stop that night.

So then we made that loop to get back on the highway, and made more progress riding the shoulder than we had for the last four hours.

Um, we took every other exit after that and rode the shoulder every chance we got after that.

Then a miracle call on the cellphone. (Remember when cellphones worked?)

My brother in law, Mark, told us to take a backroad into Crowley, where we stayed with his brother (who also happens to be the former bass player for the band we'd hung with--weird, I know, but that's how it was) and we found "refuge" in a trailer, but were told on arriving, "Don't unpack--we may have to evacuate too."

So we sat in their homey little tin can, and watched CNN.

When it became obvious I was the resident insomniac, I was put on "alert".

If the storm took that edge toward Crowley, it was my job to wake everyone and get us all on the road.

I almost DID wake everyone, but not because the storm was endangering us, but because I heard a report on CNN at about three a.m.--and a nurse from Charity Hospital, she stated that the levee had been breached, and water was rising at the rate of an inch every five minutes.

Now I'm not engineer, I'm not a politician, I don't know a damn thing about too much, but I knew my city was dying.

I sat there for three hours, watching, with the same horror I felt watching Waco Burn.

"Where was everybody?"

I wanted to wake everyone up, but then I thought "why?"

So I just cried into a pillow and let everyone sleep.

Now if I knew this, why didn't every emergency official on duty know it?

I saw later Mayor Nagin passing blame too.

Somebody can edit this, but he is an [edited by Alicat].

He sent people to unmanned evacuation centers, while buses, did indeed sit drowning in the flood waters. He accused the surrounding parishes of racism--shaking my head here--I happen to own property in two parishes, and Gretna, has Mayor Ronnie Harris defended himself, had a plan.

They seal off the city in emergency situations.

Yes, there were armed policemen and attack dogs at the foots of the bridges to the surrounding parishes, but what Nagin failed to mention were the BUSES, which took the poor people who managed to make that five mile march across the bridge to the Westwego Alario Center, before evacuating them to the Cajundome, the Astrodome, etc.

Nagin can be "pissed", I say.

He sat in the interior room on the 17th floor of the Hyatt, being outraged.

(Don't even get me started on Compass.)

I have been saying in this forum, "New Orleans is going to explode before this summer is over" and oh such was wisdom from "moi"--I am just a simple citizen--who slept with .38 under her pillow.

Louisiana politics IS notorious for bovine excrement [edited by Alicat].

But I always counted on the Federal Gov't to figure out the muck.

(Good luck in St. Bernard, Feds. The Muck is all that is left there.)

Did somebody drop the ball?

Hell...it wasn't a ballgame at all.

It was mudwrestling.

We lived in a city we thought had levee protection for Category Four surges.

We were wrong.

And yanno?

I rode out Rita in Crowley too. Not out of bravado, but because there was no place to go.

And when Governor Blanco told the citizens who refused to evacuate to write their social security numbers on their skin in indelible ink, I did.

The only part I thought was a joke, was that she thought that would survive floodwaters.

I know what water does to bodies.

So I wrote in on a glow in the dark whistle wrist band too. (Thanks Charly.   )

The first thing I read regarding the problem of displaced persons was in a Lafayette newspaper and oh-I-wish-I-could quote the author.

But if I may, I'll paraphrase--

"There was no plan for this many displaced families--no one expected this many to survive."

I give applause to the Coast Guard and the National Guard.

And I would simply be shamed if I didn't mention the many Pip people who came to my personal aid.

As much as my little diatribe reeks bitterness, please know I am amazed at all the goodness that came out of people in the most trying of circumstances--survival.



(Remind me to tell ya about the right side of Rita in a Rice Field....ooooh I smell poetry! )

[This message has been edited by Alicat (10-07-2005 07:49 PM).]

Balladeer
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105 posted 2005-10-07 06:58 PM


Well, there it is...and it could not be told better nor by one more qualified to chronicle the events. Thank you, serenity gal. We can all sit here and discuss and surmise and point fingers in the relative comfort of our homes which have not changed much over the past month but you were there and you went through it. It's an incredible tribute to your stamina and will to survive. To you, you may simply feel that you were one who simply did what had to be done but, to us, you and your family are giants....
serenity blaze
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since 2000-02-02
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106 posted 2005-10-07 07:06 PM


My hero.
Balladeer
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107 posted 2005-10-07 07:28 PM


more importantly...your friend.
Balladeer
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108 posted 2005-10-08 02:27 PM


No responses in almost a day...isn't that interesting???
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648

109 posted 2005-10-08 04:08 PM


Welcome home, Karen! I wish you and your family the best as you try to rebuild your lives after such a devastating experience. And a future move to an area with a more responsible group of government leaders, or an area not prone to natural disasters, might be worth pondering.
(((HUGS)))

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

110 posted 2005-10-08 04:21 PM


My sweet head-buttin' buddy Denise!



(Another quiet hero, folks)

I yam so happy to be back here at Pip. (My phone line is still "iffy" tho--depends on which way the wind is blowing whether or not I have phone service.)

Another thing?

Here at the house, tho, the friggin' flies are driving us all nuts.

But that's another rant for another thread I guess.

For now it's enough to be back at my own IP.

Gawd I love you all...

Balladeer
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111 posted 2005-10-09 06:18 PM


Now where did them FEMA bashers go?
Ron
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since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669
Michigan, US
112 posted 2005-10-09 07:22 PM


quote:
serenity: But if you wanna blame anybody, blame everybody.

... But I always counted on the Federal Gov't to figure out the muck.

Don't get cocky, Mike.

After all, it seems to me Karen's view isn't greatly different from what many have been saying?

Balladeer
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113 posted 2005-10-09 08:29 PM


Not cocky, Ron...but disappointed. Serenity is one of ours, one who has been receiving our support and well-wishes and she comes along to give a fairly heart-wrenching first hand account of the events and her words are basically ignored, or at least uncommented on. With all of the entries on this topic - and so many of them being anti-bush or anti-FEMA - all of a sudden no one has anything to say, not even a "glad you got through it". I find that sad. Her entry was not political and yet, just because it may not support some of the accusations that have been made here, there's nothing but silence. Not cocky - sad at this attitude.
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
114 posted 2005-10-09 08:51 PM


Actually, I wanted to give Karen the last word.


serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

115 posted 2005-10-09 09:05 PM


Word.




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