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Alicat
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75 posted 09-29-2005 11:40 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Found it mildly amusing why there were no questions directed to Governor Blanco about her own screwups during her Congressional testimony.  Seems she had requested, and was granted, that no questions about her own actions be given.

Go Fig.
Balladeer
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76 posted 09-29-2005 11:56 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

That WAS pretty hilarious. When she sidestepped the issue they appluaded her for not getting into the "blame game". When Brown was on the day before, the "blame game" was all they were interested in. Don't these people realize how transparent they are??
Brad
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77 posted 09-30-2005 08:31 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Is this what you guys are referring to:

quote:
Governor Kathleen Blanco, D-La., testifying before Senate Finance Committee on Capital Hill, Wednesday, Sept. 28, 2005 in Washington. Blanco asked Congress for help in rebuilding her devastated state, saying Hurricanes Katrina and Rita 'knocked us down but they did not knock us out.' Blanco in her opening statement did not mention former FEMA director Michael Brown, who on Tuesday had blamed state and local officials in Louisiana for not responding appropriately to the storm. (AP Photo/Pablo Martinez Monsivais)


Yeah, those republicans can be such pansies.
Balladeer
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78 posted 10-01-2005 01:25 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Brad, while you are doing your research, why not check on the questions he was asked which caused him to respond with those comments...you know, the questions they did NOT ask the governor.

What's that? They were not there to attack FEMA? Oh, really.....
Local Rebel
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79 posted 10-01-2005 07:36 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

people believe what they want to believe, and yes LR, I would rather rely on osmosis than a large number of sources many people are more than willing to believe...

and I still say it is the best policy in a crisis situation to wait until the truth emerges



I absolutely agree that people believe what they want to believe and I would go one step further and say unequivocally that people want you to believe what they want you to believe.

I play chess with my ten-year-old son not because I delight in beating him -- he doesn't even understand the nuances of the game let alone how to develop strategy or to be able to appreciate a well developed position.  It is rather in the hopes that he learns how to think and understand that I invest my time in him and much for the same reason I've hopefully not wasted a good deal of discretionary time for the last five years here attempting to focus on developing positions based on facts and, certainly we have to vet sources and understand what they are saying to us.

The underlying question is Tim -- what do you believe?  

If we look at the FACTS that are presented in the BBC article that Huan posted: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4292114.stm we first look at the headline itself and realize that the word 'overstated' is printed in quotation marks thusly:  

New Orleans violence 'Overstated'

So the fact that is being stated is not that violence was overstated, but that some people are saying the violence was overstated.  These come from the same officials who, before, reported the violence initially -- who have said all along that there were no official reports of rape.

Other facts reported in the article;

quote:

Rape crisis centres have been "deluged" with people needing help, the Louisiana Foundation Against Sexual Assault says, but many victims have been unable to reach police to report the crimes.

"They are more concerned right now with 'where are we going to sleep, how are we going to eat, where are we going to get money?'," executive director Judy Benitez said.

"We are really trying to stress to police that just because a rape hasn't been reported, doesn't mean it didn't happen."



Other reports from people on the ground, who were there, still say the violence was going on --albeit eyewitness accounts are sometimes some of the worst vantage points as anyone who has ever checked an instant replay can attest -- and here the statment is strictly heresay --but still -- the preponderance of the testimony is strong;

quote:

Ane Daniels, a 48-year-old hotel cleaner, told the BBC she was warned by a young boy not to take refuge in the Superdome.

"He said, 'don't go up there ma'am - they are killing people and they are raping people'. And if a 12 -year-old boy is saying that, you know something is up."



and yet others on the ground say;

quote:

"I think the US media are just covering up what really happened because this city lives on tourism," said Mike Maver, an Illinois firefighter who has been assisting the relief effort.

"And if the tourists are frightened and don't come back, this city will never survive."



Now I'm not seeing how any of this impeaches the story I presented by an investigative reporter who obtained his information from the SWAT team commander and officers on the ground and I am unaware that any of them have stepped forward to disavow that article.  If so, please direct me there.

But, from this latest spate of spin, as in all instances we have to wonder who gains from the information?  When it was only thought that rapes, murders, and mayhem served to 'blame game' the Democratic administrations in Louisiana and New Orleans, people like Republican hatchet man Thomas Lipscomb were all to quick to jump on the story; http://www.suntimes.com/output/otherviews/cst-edt-ref09.html

quote:

The rapes and needless deaths that took place there are his [Nagin's] responsibility as well. As late as Sunday, 80 armed policemen were too cowardly to enter the Convention Center after reports of the savagery inside. Troops finally searching the Convention Center on Monday found an elderly man and a young girl, battered to death, among the corpses.



However, after it became clear that lawlessness in New Orleans cast pale over the Bush administration then the stories started changing immediately.  

So what position do you want to stake out Tim?  Do you want to say that the women who are 'deluging' rape crisis centers are just going there to have fun?  They're just partisan puppets who are being paid by, I don't know.. China?  How bizarre do you want to get with a rationalization to try to in effect say...

'Move along, nothing to see here people.  Move along...'
Ron
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80 posted 10-01-2005 08:10 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Do you want to say that the women who are 'deluging' rape crisis centers are just going there to have fun?

You're assuming, LR, the report of a deluge is necessarily accurate? I, for one, find it curious that people too busy surviving to contact the police nonetheless find the time to contact Judy Benitez. In poetry, a good metaphor is a powerful tool, but Ms. Benitez would be more convincing if she skipped the deluge and gave us some real numbers. If we're going to be skeptics, let's at least be consistent skeptics and question everyone's veracity equally.

One person raped is, obviously, one person too many, and a clue that something horrible went wrong. It's not, however, a deluge.
Local Rebel
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81 posted 10-01-2005 08:26 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Certainly Ron I agree which is why I maintained the quotation marks.  

I don't, however find it curious that people haven't been reporting rapes, officially to the New Orleans police.  They aren't in New Orleans.  They're scattered across the country in shelters.

Trying to assemble an accurate count would prove to be impracticable as well merely due to the fact that rape is the most under-reported crime.

We know that King Arthur wasn't an enchanted monarch who pulled a sword from a stone -- but, we do know that these stories have a basis in fact -- and , it is unlikely that time is going to bring us closer to the truth as Tim would have -- rather the opposite is the norm.
Ron
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82 posted 10-01-2005 10:44 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
We know that King Arthur wasn't an enchanted monarch who pulled a sword from a stone -- but, we do know that these stories have a basis in fact ...

No, I think we know that some stories have a basis in fact. I don't think we can conclude, for example, that if Neil Armstrong didn't make his famous walk in a Hollywood studio, it just means the studio was probably in NYC. Some stories have a basis only in fiction.

BTW, Arthur wasn't enchanted until *after* he pulled a sword from a stone. Before that, he was just pure of heart. Camelot was real.
Local Rebel
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83 posted 10-01-2005 11:36 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Some stories have a basis only in fiction.



Neil Armstrong DID take a walk...

Tim
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84 posted 10-02-2005 10:40 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

What is my position?  I don't know how I can make it much clearer.  I think in a crisis situation you need to wait until the facts emerge to find out more fully what actually happened rather than what media and rumors indicate happened.

Apparently the major New Orleans newspaper, the L.A. times, and some television outlets now acknowledge widespread reporting of unsubstantiated rumors. Certainly the individuals in authority making the claims to the national media are now indicating they were reporting rumor and not fact.

The internet is positive in that you can have access to learn a lot of opinions and interpretation of facts.  It does not guarantee your ability to think for yourself.  

If you take a position and then surf the net to find something to support your position, you can easily succeed.

The small boy reference... not really worth the effort to discuss as serious fact or proof of such...

The rape crisis lady... ( and I have every respect for those in her position, I started one of the first victim witness units in our state and worked with the local crisis center for twenty years) use some thought here...  what does she say, not only in her quote, but in her other statements...

crisis centers are swamped...  which centers? how many centers are not operating in New Orleans and therefore their caseload is being covered by small outlying centers.  were these centers swamped before?  Are they treating individuals other than rape victims?  Domestic violence, just people needing help?
Are they handling any cases of allegations of rape from the convention center or superdome?

She said right after the hurricane she did not know how many if any rapes and murders had occured at the two locations.  She knows a substantiated report of one rape occuring that did not occur at either location but out in the City.

She says the rapes had to have occured because with that many people together rapes had to have happened and that rapes are underreported.  I don't doubt a substantial number of rapes are not reported.  I doubt brutal rapes of small children in confined areas with thousands of people present fit the same profile of a date rape or serial rapist and that such child rapes are seriously underreported.

I have dealt with rape, murder and child sexual assault victims most of my adult life.  With rampant anarchy, rape and murder occuring, I would honestly believe we would have a little more hard evidence at this point.
Were there murders and rapes in the two locations?  Possibly, but we still are lacking victims and/ or eye witnesses, although there is some eyewitness evidence as to one homicide during a fight.

Because rapes and murders might have happened they are to be reported as fact?  

What happened at the Superdome and Convention center is tragic, no one doubts that fact, but the evidence just is not there to substantiate the wild rumors that were reported by the media.

As to the swat team?

"Asked about the muzzle-flash story last week, Compass said, "That really happened" to Winn's SWAT team at the Convention Center.

But Winn, when asked about alleged shootouts in a separate interview, said his unit saw muzzle flashes and heard gunshots only one time. Despite aggressively frisking a number of suspects, the team recovered no weapons. His unit never found anyone who had been shot."

But then who knows, maybe as insinutated, there is a conspiracy amongst New Orleans authorities and the media to revive the French Quarter and Madigras and cover up what actually happened.
Balladeer
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85 posted 10-03-2005 11:43 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I received an article which appears to me to sum things up pretty accurately.........

In his 1935 State of the Union Address, FDR spoke to a nation mired in the Depression, but still marinated in conservative values:

"Continued dependence" upon welfare, said FDR, "induces a spiritual disintegration fundamentally destructive to the national fiber. To dole out relief in this way is to administer a narcotic, a subtle destroyer of the human spirit."

Behind FDR's statement was the conviction that, while the government must step in in an emergency, in normal times, men provide the food, clothing and shelter for their families.

And we did, until the war pulled us out of the Depression and a postwar boom made us, in John K. Galbraith's phrase, The Affluent Society. By the 1960s, America, the richest country on earth, was growing ever more prosperous. But with the 1964 landslide of LBJ, liberalism triumphed and began its great experiment.

Behind the Great Society was a great idea: to lift America's poor out of poverty, government should now take care of all their basic needs. By giving the poor welfare, subsidized food, public housing and free medical care, government will end poverty in America.

At the Superdome and New Orleans Convention Center, we saw the failure of 40 years of the Great Society. No sooner had Katrina passed by and the 17th Street levee broke than hundreds of young men who should have taken charge in helping the aged, the sick and the women with babies to safety took to the streets to shoot, loot and rape. The New Orleans police, their numbers cut by deserters who left their posts to look after their families, engaged in running gun battles all day long to stay alive and protect people.

It was the character and conduct of its people that makes the New Orleans disaster unique. After a hurricane, people's needs are simple: food, water, shelter, medical attention. But they can be hard to meet. People buried in rubble or hiding in attics of flooded homes are tough to get to. But, even with the incompetence of the mayor and governor, and the torpor of federal officials, this was possible.

Coast Guard helicopters were operating Tuesday. There were roads open into the city for SUVs, buses and trucks. While New Orleans was flooded, the water was stagnant. People walked through to the convention center and Superdome. The flimsiest boat could navigate.   Even if government dithered for days -- what else is new -- this does not explain the failure of the people themselves.

Between 1865 and 1940, the South -- having lost a fourth of its best and bravest in battle, devastated by war, mired in poverty -- was famous for the hardy self-reliance of her people, black and white.

In 1940, hundreds of British fishermen and yachtsmen sailed back and forth daily under fire across a turbulent 23-mile Channel to rescue 300,000 soldiers from Dunkirk. How do we explain to the world that a tenth that number of Americans could not be reached in four days from across a stagnant pond?

The real disaster of Katrina was that society broke down. An entire community could not cope. Liberalism, the idea that good intentions and government programs can build a Great Society, was exposed as fraud. After trillions of tax dollars for welfare, food stamps, public housing, job training and education have poured out since 1965, poverty remains pandemic. But today, when the police vanish, the community disappears and men take to the streets to prey on women and the weak.

Stranded for days in a pool of fetid water, almost everyone waited for the government to come save them. They screamed into the cameras for help, and the reporters screamed into the cameras for help, and the "civil rights leaders" screamed into the cameras that Bush was responsible and Bush was a racist.

Americans were once famous for taking the initiative, for having young leaders rise up to take command in a crisis. See any of that at the Superdome? Sri Lankans and Indonesians, far poorer than we, did not behave like this in a tsunami that took 400 times as many lives as Katrina has thus far.

We are the descendants of men and women who braved the North Atlantic in wooden boats to build a country in a strange land. Our ancestors traveled thousands of miles in covered wagons,  through hostile lands exhibiting far more bravery than those cowards preying on New Orleans' poor.

Watching that performance in the Crescent City, it seems clear: We are not the people our parents were. And what are all our Lords Temporal now howling for? Though government failed at every level, they want more government.

FDR was right. A "spiritual disintegration" has overtaken us. Government-as-first provider, the big idea of the Great Society, has proven to be "a narcotic, a subtle destroyer of the human spirit."  Either we get off this narcotic, or it kills us
Ron
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86 posted 10-03-2005 03:01 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Give me a break, Mike.

I could just as easily argue that fighting one unjust war after another has brought about your "spiritual disintegration." Maybe it all started the day Neil Armstrong walked on the moon, a sure sign we should never have left the Earth God saw fit to give us? More likely, spiritual disintegration is simply the inevitable result of a society where the rich get richer and the poor just get screwed.

Most in the Philosophy forum will attest that I'm far from being a proponent of Socialism. I happen to agree with FDR, at least on an economic level. But I'm also not a proponent of sloppy thinking. When someone wants to link Cause to Effect, I generally like to see a little more than unsupported speculation.
Brad
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87 posted 10-03-2005 06:08 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
At the Superdome and New Orleans Convention Center, we saw the failure of 40 years of the Great Society.


Wow!

quote:
No sooner had Katrina passed by and the 17th Street levee broke than hundreds of young men who should have taken charge in helping the aged, the sick and the women with babies to safety took to the streets to shoot, loot and rape.


I thought this was disputed.

At any rate, doesn't this mean they didn't trust the government?

quote:
The New Orleans police, their numbers cut by deserters who left their posts to look after their families, engaged in running gun battles all day long to stay alive and protect people.


And we should respect those that helped those to stay alive and to protect people.

Yet, you seem to condone deserters who 'go to look after their families'?

I don't get it, there are many reports, many first hand tales of precisely what you seem to be saying didn't happen.

Katrina Report

quote:
The confidential report, which has been seen by The Independent, details how funds for flood control were diverted to other projects, desperately needed National Guards were stuck in Iraq and how military personnel had to "sneak off post" to help with relief efforts because their commander had refused permission.


Or what about Charmaine Neville's report? The link is by LR on the Sullivan thread.

My point is that many people, as individuals, did exactly what you claim didn't happen here. Not all of course.

But I suspect we'll hear more "human interest" stories over the next few months.

While I can't claim the anti-socialist bug but that Ron claims, a healthy suspicion of government, of all government, is not a bad thing.

Isn't it about time to rethink support for politicians, democrats or republicans, who state you can trust us, who say we will protect you, who spend tremendous amounts of money on projects that don't work, and then turn around and state that government is the problem, not the solution but trust us anyway?

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88 posted 10-03-2005 06:59 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Obviously you took this as a political issue on my part and, reading the article, I can understand why....but it wasn't. I happen to agree with the article and I would have agreed reardless what political party was in power, either in Washington or Louisiana. Reading the news reports, I could see a distinct difference between the actions of the people in New Orleans as opposed to the people on the gulf coast and the people in Texas. If you don't see any evidence of people screaming, "Government, do something NOW!!" instead of taking action and responsiblilty, then I question your eyesight. If you don't see evidence of people preferring to live off the handouts of the government instead of finding jobs, I question it even further. Within one day the people in the shelters were screaming for food and water. Why didn't they take any? They knew a hurricane was coming. How much common sense does it take to fill at least a few bottle up with water and grab some cans of Spam, or beenie-weenies or anything which would provide food for a couple of days? Don't tell me poor. Even poor can fill bottles of water. No,  they prefer to just say, "Government, take care of me" in the face of one of the most devastating hurricanes in the history of the country. The hurricane was almost blameless. It was the government that was evil. You may claim that ist's easy for me to say - I wasn't there and you would be right. But I am HERE, and here we have had our share of hurricanes headed our way and I can assure you that almost everyone here, regardless of their financial situation, is prepared enough to make it through a couple of days with the basics. It's what you do when facing hurricanes. This is not the only incident of this happening. 9-11 was another....people screaming at the government, demanding money, getting money, demanding more as if the terrorist act was incidental - the governement was the real enemy.

This article claims that we have gone from a society of responsibility assuming people to a society of take care of me and I mean now people....I don't disagree with that. It also states that there is a moral breakdown when rioting and looting begins seconds after a tragedy and I don't disagree with that, either. For those of you shocked at the suggestion of moral breakdown in New Orleans, you obviously know nothing of New Orleans.

There will be good stories, too....heroic stories of normal people doing heroic things, stories of people fending for themselves and doing what needed to be done instead of waiting for someone to do things for them.....in New Orleans these people seemed to be a minority.
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89 posted 10-03-2005 07:52 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
This article claims that we have gone from a society of responsibility assuming people to a society of take care of me and I mean now people.

Are you like that, Mike? Do you have a lot of friends or family who are like that? Perhaps you think most of the people posting in the forums are like that?

Society, of course, is comprised of people. You, your friends and family, others much like those posting here. If society has gone to hell in a hand basket, clearly that includes these people, too.

Funny thing is, that's not the way I see it.

Were there muzzle flashes witnessed in the Convention Center? I honestly don't know if there was or wasn't. I do know, however, how many men it takes to hold a rifle.

Prophecies of doom and gloom certainly aren't unusual in the wake of tragedy. Trouble is, Mike, this article does much more than claim we've gone from a society of responsibility to one of dependence. It also tries to assign a Cause to that alleged Effect, based on absolutely NOTHING except that one preceded the other. It doesn't even try to substantiate its argument, relying instead on assumption, tired cliché, and meaningless rhetoric.

I'll be the first to admit I get frightened when pockets of our world resort to violence and replace self-sufficiency with political demands. I get even more frightened, however, when I see intelligent, educated people plumb forgetting how to think.
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90 posted 10-03-2005 08:35 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Happily I can say I am not like that, Ron. I have been out of work several times in my life and broke more times than I can count but I have never filed for welfare or taken food stamps..but that's my own personal philosophy. Does it exist and have I seen it? Oh, yes. One of the perks (?) of being on the police force is that you get to see a lot of it. You may have never heard of anyone saying, "Why should I work? With the welfare payments and food stamps I make as much as I would actually working" but I can assure you I have and it is not uncommon among the poor.  You may not believe in the cause and effect presented in the article but I do.

"Continued dependence" upon welfare, said FDR, "induces a spiritual disintegration fundamentally destructive to the national fiber. To dole out relief in this way is to administer a narcotic, a subtle destroyer of the human spirit."

Behind the Great Society was a great idea: to lift America's poor out of poverty, government should now take care of all their basic needs. By giving the poor welfare, subsidized food, public housing and free medical care, government will end poverty in America.

The real disaster of Katrina was that society broke down. An entire community could not cope.

After trillions of tax dollars for welfare, food stamps, public housing, job training and education have poured out since 1965, poverty remains pandemic.

today, when the police vanish, the community disappears and men take to the streets to prey on women and the weak.

Government-as-first provider, the big idea of the Great Society, has proven to be "a narcotic, a subtle destroyer of the human spirit.


There is not a statement there I disagree with. Watch a blackout hit New York and see what happens in seconds.

Instead of decaring that people don't think, please consider the possibility that they do but just possibly different than you.
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91 posted 10-03-2005 09:41 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
... today, when the police vanish, the community disappears and men take to the streets to prey on women and the weak.

And you're actually suggesting, Mike, that never happened prior to LBJ?  

In my opinion, morality has absolutely nothing to do with income levels.

Give those who take to the streets a little better income and they'll simply prey on the weak in a court room instead. The man who won't work because he has welfare and food stamps is not greatly different from the factory worker who coasts through every shift he can and steals from his employer any time the chance presents itself. Those who scream their demands at government are brothers to those who feel cheated when their jobs are moved to Mexico. Greed and short-sightedness aren't caused by poverty, not will they ever be solved by prosperity.

Personally, I think socialism doesn't work because of basic human nature. But no way do I accept that it can change human nature.
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92 posted 10-03-2005 10:52 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I actually don't see anywhere, Ron, where I suggested that never happened before LBJ. I would, however, bet dollars to doughnuts that it happens a lot more often in the 2000's than it did in the 50's.

As far as morality having nothing to do with income levels, you obviously don't feel that family situations has anything to do with how a child is raised. I happen to feel it is very important.


Behind the Great Society was a great idea: to lift America's poor out of poverty, government should now take care of all their basic needs. By giving the poor welfare, subsidized food, public housing and free medical care, government will end poverty in America.

Did it end poverty? Of course not...but it did get them accustomed to having money handed over to them. Has it solved the problems? No, you don't solve problems by throwing money at it....you simply make the people receiving the money dependant on the throwers...and you give them the right to demand that the money keeps getting thrown.

I get the feeling from your comments to me that you think I have a political agenda with this. I don't. FDR, LBJ, liberals, conservatives - I could care less who did what. The fact is that it was done and we are paying the price for it. Take away a man's need to work and you take away his pride and self-respect. Take that away and you have him running down the street with a 56" flat screen color tv while people are dying around him. We are paying the price now...
Ron
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93 posted 10-03-2005 11:26 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
As far as morality having nothing to do with income levels, you obviously don't feel that family situations has anything to do with how a child is raised. I happen to feel it is very important.

While I agree the family is important to how a child is raised, I don't think it depends on income levels, either, Mike. I suspect Abraham Lincoln, and many many more, would likely agree. Again, I think you're confusing cause and effect, first with a Post Hoc fallacy, and now with a Joint Effect fallacy.

quote:
Take away a man's need to work and you take away his pride and self-respect.

Really? So, you think Bill Gates, Martha Stewart, Warren Buffet -- and, of course, George Bush -- have no pride and self-respect? For that matter, since I'm retired and have no need to work any longer, I guess you'd have to add me to that list.

I'd like to think that a man's worth is tied not to his need to work, but rather to his willingness to work. That, I believe, is one of those things instilled long before anyone is ever old enough to go on the dole.

quote:
Take that away and you have him running down the street with a 56" flat screen color tv while people are dying around him.

And I'd be willing to bet dollars to doughnuts, Mike, that most of the looters in New Orleans had jobs. You know, like Al Capone did. Or like Kenneth Lay did.


Balladeer
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94 posted 10-04-2005 12:15 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Yes, Ron, Abraham Lincoln came from a log cabin and so did others but that does not negate the fact that poverty households are much more likely to produce a different morality or view of life...and there a lot more of them than there are Abraham Lincolns.

I'm afraid I don;t understand your Bill Gates comparisons at all. Yes, Bill Gates, Martha Stewart, Warren Buffet - and you - don't have to work but you did once. That is where you make the comparison, at the starting point, not at the end where the people who did work have managed to become successful enough to not have to. Want another comparison? How about the silver spooners? How many of them screw up their lives and have the morals of snakes? We read about them all the time.

...and you may want to reconsider your wager,  Ron, before I go over to Krispy Kreme and buy all the doughnuts they've got. Check out the unemployment figures of New Orleans, at least
Not A Poet
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95 posted 10-05-2005 07:59 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

Things one might have noticed while watching media coverage of the recent hurricanes. There must be some explanation other than "It's all Bush's fault!"

1. Texas: Productive industrious state run by conservative Republicans.

    Louisiana: Government dependent welfare state run by liberal Democrats.

2. Texas: Residents take responsibility to protect and evacuate themselves.

    Louisiana: Residents wait for government to protect and evacuate them.

3. Texas: Local and state officials take responsibility for protecting their citizens and property.

    Louisiana: Local and state officials blame federal government for not protecting their citizens and property.

4. Texas: Command and control remains in place to preserve order.

    Louisiana: Command and control collapses allowing lawlessness.

5. Texas: Law enforcement officers remain on duty to protect city.

    Louisiana: Law enforcement officers desert their posts to protect themselves.

6. Texas: Local police watch for looting.

    Louisiana: Local police participate in looting.

7. Texas: Law and order remains in control, 8 looters tried it, 8 looters arrested.

    Louisiana: Anarchy and lawlessness breaks out, looters take over city, no arrests, criminals with guns have to be shot by federal troops.

8. Texas: Considerable damage caused by hurricane.

    Louisiana: Considerable damage caused by looters.

9. Texas: Flood barriers hold preventing cities from flooding.

    Louisiana: Flood barriers fail due to lack of maintenance allowing city to flood.

10. Texas: Orderly evacuation away from threatened areas, few remain.

      Louisiana: 25,000 fail to evacuate, are relocated to another flooded area.

11. Texas: Citizens evacuate with personal 3 day supply of food and water.

      Louisiana: Citizens fail to evacuate with 3 day supply of food and water, do without it for the next 4 days.

12. Texas: FEMA brings in tons of food and water for evacuees. State officials provide accessible distribution points.

      Louisiana: FEMA brings in tons of food and water for evacuees. State officials prevent citizens from reaching distribution points and vice versa.

13. Louisiana: Media focuses on poor blacks in need of assistance, blames Bush.

      Texas: Media can’t find poor blacks in need of assistance, looking for something else to blame on Bush.

14. Texas: Coastal cities suffer some infrastructure damage, Mayors tell residents to stay away until ready for repopulation, no interference from federal officials.

      Louisiana: New Orleans is destroyed, Mayor asks residents to return home as another hurricane approaches, has to be overruled by federal officials.

15. Louisiana: Over 400 killed by storm, flooding and crime.

      Texas: 24 killed in bus accident on highway during evacuation, no storm related deaths.

16. Texas: Jailed prisoners are relocated to other detention facilities outside the storm area.

      Louisiana: Jailed prisoners are set free to prey on city shops, residents, and homes.

17. Texas: Local and state officials work with FEMA and Red Cross in recovery operations.

      Louisiana: Local and state officials obstruct FEMA and Red Cross from aiding in recovery operations.

18. Texas: Local and state officials demonstrate leadership in managing disaster areas.

      Louisiana: Local and state officials fail to demonstrate leadership, require federal government to manage disaster areas.

19. Texas: Fuel deliveries can't keep up with demand, some run out of gas on highway, need help from fuel tankers before storm arrives.

      Louisiana: Motorists wait till storm hits and electrical power fails. Cars run out of gas at gas stations that can‘t pump gas. Gas in underground tanks mixes with flood waters.

20. Texas: Mayors move citizens out of danger.

      Louisiana: Mayor moves himself and family to Dallas.

21. Texas: Mayors continue public service announcements and updates on television with Governor's backing and support.

      Louisiana: Mayor cusses, governor cries, senator threatens president with violence on television, none of them have a clue what went wrong or who‘s responsible.

22. Louisiana: Democratic Senator says FEMA was slow in responding to 911 calls from Louisiana citizens.

Texas: Republican Senator says "when you call 911, the phone doesn't ring in Washington, it rings here at the local responders".

What if state and local elected officials were forced to depend on themselves and their own resources instead of calling for help from the federal government? Texas cities would be back up and running in a few days. Louisiana cities would still be under water next month.

Some of this is, of course, pretty political but there is a whole lot of truth there too.
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96 posted 10-05-2005 09:24 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

This what you're saying, Pete?

Brad
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97 posted 10-05-2005 10:14 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Wow, if I didn't know better, you'd think the whole thing was staged.

But let's not forget, Katrina came first.

Hope and pray that the next time you're in a hurricane zone that a democrat county gets hit first and that you vote republican.




quote:
15. Louisiana: Over 400 killed by storm, flooding and crime.

      Texas: 24 killed in bus accident on highway during evacuation, no storm related deaths.

Ritaanddeath

quote:
Preparing for and running from Hurricane Rita proved far more deadly in Texas than the storm itself, as the death toll in Texas rose to about 100 in early counts.

Rita's aftermath also claimed the lives of people who tried to run generators inside their homes and died of carbon monoxide poisoning.

The storm, a Category 3 hurricane that made landfall early Saturday at Sabine Pass, actually killed very few, according to preliminary measures.

Getting an official tally of deaths related directly or indirectly to Rita may take weeks, said Robert Black, a spokesman for Gov. Rick Perry.

"At some point there will be a lot of totals on a lot of the things that we've done," Black said. "A lot of the areas that are still without power, water, they're keeping notes on napkins."

Balladeer
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98 posted 10-05-2005 10:40 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Keying in on a bus accident should be beneath you, Brad. At least they were trying to evacuate and I doubt you know anything about the accident - and the deaths were cause by oxygen tanks on board exploding. Perhaps you think Bush cut them off and caused the bus to swerve?

Perhaps we should discuss then the charges being brought up the workers of the nursing home that euthanized over thirty people in new Orleans at the arrival of the hurricane?

Why on God's green earth would you go after a bus accident. If they hadn't tried to evacuate they might still be alive, is that it? Your logic is always a sight to behold...
Tim
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99 posted 10-05-2005 11:31 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

of sixty nursing homes subject to mandatory evacuation because of Katrina, only 21 evacuated.
In one Catholic nursing home, the nuns made a decision not to evacuate having ridden out numerous hurricanes before...  22 people died.  The nuns made a decision evacuation was more dangerous to their charges than staying put.  They made the wrong decison.  The nuns haven't been charged yet.
 
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