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Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
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Waukegan


50 posted 09-16-2005 03:27 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

“We're going to end poverty by spending money???  Really?  Is that what he said?  Poverty is the result of racism and discrimination?  How well is that playing with conservatives?”

Meanwhile, countless illegal, sorry, undocumented, unWASP
immigrants walk, run, and swim into the country to find jobs,
and do.

"On the other hand, if the populace are, like according to Nagel, not even willing to show up for work on sunny days it won't help them much but it will a lot of workers who will come in from other states. "

Or other countries.

Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


51 posted 09-17-2005 09:49 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Sullivan on Bush's speech:

quote:
I guess I wasn't the only one who decided to skip watching the president live last night. Across the blogosphere, it seems as if many others decided to catch it later, or on the web, or just read the transcript. Why? Because I knew what was coming: an attempt at spiritual uplift, greased by billions and billions that we don't have, organized by a federal government that, under Bush, cannot seem to organize anything competently. I'm not saying we don't need to spend money on the reconstruction of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast. I'm saying I don't want to hear it from this guy. As a friend of mine commented last night over a drink, I don't hate this president and never have. I'm just sick of him. Sick of the naked politicization of everything (Karl Rove over-seeing reconstruction?); sick of the utter refusal to acknowledge that there is a limit to what the federal government can borrow from this and the next generation; sick of the hijacking of the conservative tradition for a vast increase in the power and size of government, with only a feigned attempt at making it more effective; sick of the glib arrogance and excuses for failure that dot the landscape from Biloxi to Basra. I'm not the only one. See here, here, here, here, here, and more generally here.


and here is an e-mail response (though I don't know if it's a direct response to the above quote or some of the others Sullivan has written):

quote:
You ought to give President Bush some slack. He has had to face more in his presidency than arguably any other in the last 100 years. He inherited a recession, 9/11 happened, the Iraq war and this hurricane. He is only human and I think he is doing better than most.
I don't like the big spending nor the illegal immigration crisis. But I do believe the President is a man of integrity facing outstanding and overwhelming problems in his office.


I don't get it. I just don't get it.

How is it possible to pity this man?

Why the overwhelming need to protect POTUS?

Balladeer
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Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


52 posted 09-18-2005 05:28 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

A little food for thought...

New Orleans' levees broke on a Tuesday - and Bush had his own boots-on-the-ground just three days later on Friday.

When the Alfred P. Murrah Building exploded on Wednesday morning, April 19, 1995, President Clinton didn't travel to the scene for four full days.

And when he finally arrived, there was no grumbling by troubled pundits about the delay. In fact, Clinton's response to Oklahoma City is remembered to this day as the turning point of his political fortunes.

Writing this week in New York Magazine, John Heilemann recalls Clinton's April 23 speech about the bombing:

"With breathtaking subtlety and nimbleness, Clinton used that act of terrorism to illustrate the dangers of the wild-eyed anti-government rhetoric then in vogue among the Gingrichian GOP — a move that set him on the road to political redemption."

The real difference, of course, was that Clinton had a sympathetic media that was just as anxious as he was to blame the disaster on right wing Republicans. Bush, on the other hand, faces a press corps that couldn't wait to use Katrina against him.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/9/13/110122.shtml

Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


53 posted 09-18-2005 11:04 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Well, Normon Solomon would disagree with your assessment:
http://alternet.org/columnists/story/25604/


quote:
On Tuesday, the day after Brown resigned, President Bush adjusted the damage-control weaseling. "Katrina exposed serious problems in our response capability at all levels of government," he said at the White House, "and to the extent that the federal government didn't fully do its job right, I take responsibility."

It was a classic hollow statement, meant to sound important and meaningless at the same time. On Wednesday, more than a dozen paragraphs into its story headlined "President Says He's Responsible in Storm Lapses," the New York Times reported: "In saying he took responsibility for any failures of the federal response to the storm, Mr. Bush stopped short of acknowledging that he or anyone else had made mistakes."

So, according to the Times headline, Bush said that "he's responsible" for "storm lapses" -- but, according to the article, Bush did not say "that he or anyone else had made mistakes." Got that?


There are a couple points that I disagree with Solomon on:

1. It was unclear that Brown was going to leave.

2. What's the point of discussing impeachment? The problems, as I hope everyone sees, go beyond just one man.

-------------------------------

Wouldn't the best PR for this President be to have an organization that actually does what it says it's going to do?

To give substance to style?

While some of the explosions we saw from the media were, as you might say, a breath of fresh air (yes, even the ones from Fox), the most damaging are the pictures on the ground combined with the announcement by Brown and Chertoff and others that essentially said, "things are going well".

They weren't and we knew that.
Balladeer
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54 posted 09-18-2005 11:27 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

So Bush takes responsibilities for any failures and the columnist of a liberal ragsite is complaining that Bush didn't say he made any mistakes. Why am I not surprised?? And why should I care?
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


55 posted 09-19-2005 12:16 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Meanwhile the Mayor of New Orleans,
ignoring the feds, rushes to bring on another
crisis.

Just how far is anyone obligated to anyone
who chooses to be stupid?

Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


56 posted 09-19-2005 05:16 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
Why should I care?


I don't know.

quote:
Just how far is anyone obligated to anyone who chooses to be stupid?


I don't know.

Concerning the former, we could discuss whether the article in NYTimes makes any sense. We could discuss whether Bush's statement means anything.

But I see no pressing need to do so.

Concerning the latter, I guess it's a personal thing. And, presumably, Nagin said they could go back and then Bush voiced his concerns (if I understand your reference correctly). Nagin didn't ignore the Feds, the Feds reacted to Nagin.

As far as I can tell.
Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


57 posted 09-19-2005 05:23 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9156612/

quote:
Under pressure from President Bush and other top federal officials, the mayor Monday suspended the reopening of large portions of the city over the next few days because of the threat of a new round of flooding from a tropical storm.

¡°I am concerned about this hurricane getting in the gulf. ... If we are off, I¡¯d rather err on the side of conservatism to make sure we have everyone out,¡± Mayor Ray Nagin said.



Denise
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since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


58 posted 09-19-2005 11:34 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

quote:
When we rebuild we, no doubt, have to include the public housing alongside middle-class working areas so that there is interaction and role models for people -- that's the real problem is the location of the real estate -- having vast areas of nothing but public housing and poverty... I hope that's what he was getting at.


That's probably what he was getting at L.R., at least that is how I understood what he was saying. But sadly, it looks good on paper, but it doesn't work. That is what has been going on in my city for the past several years...close the public housing and move the residents into the middle class working neighborhoods where they will be provided positive lifestyle examples. But it has became obvious that they aren't absorbing the middle class work and lifestyle ethic, and choose instead to retain their own lifestyle. The only thing that has really changed is the location of  the government funded housing. The people's lifestyle and habits weren't changed by their new surroundings, unfortunately. It then became evident that classes might be beneficial in teaching the newly relocated folks the art of being a good neighbor, taking care of one's property, relationship and child rearing counseling, etc., in addition to the already existing grants available for continuing education, but there are few takers and it was deemed a violation of their civil rights to make the classes a requirement for receiving government housing aid. And those of the middle class who can, move on to areas that aren't as highly inundated with the government funded housing for the poor, because the lifestyle that is brought into their neighborhoods is not something that they want themselves or their children exposed to. Former working class neighborhoods are now becomimg what the government was trying to eliminate, regional pockets of poverty, drugs and violence and lawlessness. More and more of our once lovely neighborhoods are becoming ghettos. It just doesn't work.  
A Romantic Heart
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since 09-03-99
Posts 5497
Forever In Your Heart


59 posted 09-21-2005 07:03 AM       View Profile for A Romantic Heart   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for A Romantic Heart

Poverty is the result of people sitting on their ass and being lazy.
There is no excuse to be poor in the United States, when other people come from the most poeverty ridden countries can come to America and become doctors or whatever their dream is.It takes determination, not expecting other people to do it for you, or that is is OWED to you. I grew up in a poverty area. 80% sit on their ass and could work, but wanted to get on a check from the government and be like everyone else. I heard stories of how to act like you are mentally retarded so you could get approved for SSI etc. Most lawyers help win the case to get their fair share.So If most people have the mind set that the government takes care of them by sending them a check every month, they have the mindset that the government should take care of everything. I am glad I wanted more, I changed my path, I went to college, moved, did whatever was necessary to get out and change my life. I didn't depend on the government to do it for me. I didn't tell the government to come and build my house, fix this, or that, I did it.

The same for people everywhere, get a job, even if it is min. wage, save, get a car, get a loan, go to college, get a better job. Move to where the jobs are.

I feel sorry for the kids of parents who sit on their ass and deprive their kids of a life. Then those kids grow up learning to get on a check, sell drugs etc. Everyone always wants to take the easy road.

Katrina happened to give the United States a look at how everything in the system needs reformed.

It makes me mad that when I get paid, to see the money being taken out of my check, while driving to work, seeing people on checks from the government, taking their boats out for a spin on the lake. etc.

It makes me mad that we who live in the non danger zone states haved to be taxed for people who choose to live in the hurricane and earthquake areas...over and over again..

Everyone feeds off of the middle class, who is barely getting by to pay their bills and gas to drive to work, health insurance etc.
the working middle class is the bloodline for America..funding the government, the seniors, the poor, paying for medicaid etc.Everyone takes a bite out of us.

I know of families that work that can't take their children to doctors because of insurance, when John Doe down the street is on a check, goes fishing , hunting, etc.(meaning he has the extra money for hobbies, and could be working if he can hunt and do these activities) and gets his childrens medical insurance free from the government.

If I would get all of my pay that I have earned, I could afford my gas to drive to work, pay my bills on time.

If my taxes are to be raised to pay for this hurricane I will be pissed even more, hey why work? when you can get on a check and have it better?

I don't think they should rebuild it either, the land is already being depleted by ocean surges over the years and continues to loose more every day.

Just my opinion from seeing hands on and living in it before.

And one more thing, if I was warned of a hurricane, I would sell everything to get a way of transportation out of there,(jewelry at pawn shops etc) I would call a friend, a cousin, family menber, in other states or a cab company in another city. But, if I wanted to stay and loot thinking I could do this after the storm, maybe I would stay and take my chances?
Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


60 posted 09-21-2005 05:42 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Wow, I didn't even have to google this one:

quote:
There is no excuse to be poor in the United States, when other people come from the most poverty ridden countries can come to America and become doctors or whatever their dream is.


Now, let me get this straight.

We shouldn't help those who live in America because they live in America?

Capricious
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since 09-14-2002
Posts 89
California, USA


61 posted 09-21-2005 07:16 PM       View Profile for Capricious   Email Capricious   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Capricious

I think what she was trying to say, Brad, was that if someone could come to the US from a poverty-stricken country with nothing but the shirts on their back and a willingness to work and MAKE something of themselves despite obstacles like language barriers or what have you, there is no excuse for someone BORN in the US to sit on their duffs their entire lives and wait for that check in the mail simply because they can.
Balladeer
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Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


62 posted 09-21-2005 07:58 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Yes, of course, Brad recognizes that. He's just being Brad.

Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


63 posted 09-21-2005 07:58 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Yeah, that's exactly what she meant.
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


64 posted 09-21-2005 07:59 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

But that's the trap.
At a certain level, (that at which you
are comfortable in exchange),
why would you work if you can get paid
for doing nothing?

Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


65 posted 09-21-2005 08:33 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

or a better question is why should you work for less than you can get for nothing?

ARH -- if you had all the money you ever earned you would be a theif -- because you would not have repaid to the nation the bill you OWE for providing the institutions and structure that has provided you the opportunity to reach for success -- but, don't think that success is a destination -- it's only a journey - anything could happen at any minute and everything you think you've done by yourself could come crashing down around your ears..

Sunshine
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Listening to every heart


66 posted 09-21-2005 08:42 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Why would I work?  If I could get paid for nothing?

Because I have pride.
And I do not expect something, for nothing.
Alicat
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since 05-23-99
Posts 4277
Coastal Texas


67 posted 09-21-2005 08:49 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

I'm reminded of a time while a child with my dad.  We were collecting cans for recycling income, watching drunken welfare cheats sucking down beers while their wives worked.  Dad has been working steady since he was 13 and never once went on the government's dole.  So where do all his FICA withholdings go?  Those same drunken welfare cheats.

Wish I could find this game I absolutely loved.  The Great American Welfare Game, where the goal was to have as many illegitament kids as possible and stay on welfare while staying out of the working man's rut.  Once in the rut, it was very hard to leave while you payed out the nose for everything under the sun.
Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea


68 posted 09-21-2005 09:04 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I don't get how we moved to social policy while were in between hurricanes but okay.

1. Let's grant that the check (Not sure what people are talking about here -- social security, disability, unemployment, welfare, workfare etc.) is a disincentive, shouldn't we then fix the problem, not pretend the problem is somebody else's problem.

2. Poverty, as LR has already pointed out, is a process in many people's lives. How many who were hit by the hurricane were at a point where they were just about to break free?

Or seniors unable to get free?

3. Again a nod to LR, the self-interested reason to help others is that there might be a time when you need help.

4. Finally, I have no idea where a no danger zone is in the United States or anywhere else for that matter. If there is or if there were such a place, I suspect that
if we all common sensically moved there, it would look very much like we were all standing on Zanzibar.

With some already knee deep in the water.


Ron
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Michigan, US


69 posted 09-21-2005 09:37 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

I don't think anyone who has to ask that question, John, is likely to ever understand the answer.

I was raised in an industrial area, a squalid reflection of not too distant Detroit, where an education beyond high school was rare. People didn't fare too well a lot of the time, and many decades later, very little in that city of some sixty thousand has changed. David, the cousin closest in age to me, lives today in the same cinder-block building Uncle Bud built as a garage roughly 45 years ago, then moved his family of eight into while he saved to build a house to go along with it. The garage has been renovated several times, but the house was never built. I'm not sure when the family stopped talking about it.

I saw a lot of poverty growing up. I don't recall seeing a lot of laziness. Best I can tell, from personal experience and a few classes taken in college, being poor has very little to do with how hard someone works. Whether you're Uncle Bud or Uncle Scrooge McDuck, quality of life isn't defined by how much you make, but rather by how much you get to keep. My uncle washed windows for a living, one of those guys you see hanging on eight feet of wired scaffolding twenty stories over your head, and it paid pretty decent money (if only 'cause most wouldn't do it). Six kids put a good dent in his paycheck, and a penchant for whiskey usually finished it off by the time Monday rolled around.

Poverty isn't about working hard. It's about expectation. Uncle Bud never had much because no one ever convinced him he deserved to have more.
Temptress
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Member Rara Avis
since 06-15-99
Posts 7276
Mobile, AL


70 posted 09-26-2005 11:17 PM       View Profile for Temptress   Email Temptress   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Temptress

A Romantic Heart,
You said...

"It makes me mad that we who live in the non danger zone states haved to be taxed for people who choose to live in the hurricane and earthquake areas...over and over again.."

I don't honestly believe there are really any "non danger zone states" anywhere.

There are:
landslides, earthquakes, floods, fires, droughts,tornadoes, hurricanes, and I am sure lots more things that nature and even other humans can throw at us.  

I moved to Gulfport because I love it here. I'm not leaving permanently simply because we have hurricanes here. I'd be running from the hurricanes possibly to an earthquake or a tornado. Nature is EVERYWHERE.

Did I get assistance from FEMA due to the fact that my apartment was practically destroyed? Yes, I did. (Did I expect it? No, I didn't.) Did you or anyone else contribute to that by being taxed on the wages that you receive. Yes, I am sure that happened; but I work too. I also pay taxes, so I am sure that over the years I have been taxed like everyone else. Don't worry. There are people who receieved assistance here who work very hard and pay taxes just like you do.

Jenn

"I want to heal, I want to feel, like I'm close to something real"
-Linkin Park_

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


71 posted 09-29-2005 06:02 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

“Reports of murder, rape and violence among the thousands trapped in New Orleans' shelters in the wake of Hurricane Katrina shocked the world.

The city's police chief spoke of babies being raped. Mayor Ray Nagin told of Superdome evacuees "watching hooligans killing people, raping people".

Now, a month later, officials say many of the accounts were probably false or greatly exaggerated in a time of chaos. “

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4292114.stm


Tim
Senior Member
since 06-08-99
Posts 1801


72 posted 09-29-2005 09:47 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

wait for the truth to emerge

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"which will come to you how? via osmosis?"

people believe what they want to believe, and yes LR, I would rather rely on osmosis than a large number of sources many people are more than willing to believe...

and I still say it is the best policy in a crisis situation to wait until the truth emerges
Balladeer
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Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


73 posted 09-29-2005 10:04 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Came out in the news yesterday that 4 people had died in the shelter....2 from natural causes, 1 drug overdose and one who took a header from an upper level....so much for the news that shocked the world.

There it is, Brad, in reference to your philosophy thread.
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


74 posted 09-29-2005 11:21 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I'm not sure I understand what's going on here.

Did anybody check the first link I started with?

Does this exonerate those who blamed the victim?

Does that mean Nagin should get off because the buses weren't needed?

How about Blanco and the Red Cross/doctors thing?

And what about the Feds and their promises, their promises, their promises?

I think everybody feels better/relieved that the current numbers were smaller than the projections (remember 911? remember Chernobyl?), but I don't see how this makes our government actions any less reprehensible.

Last time I checked the number of Katrina casualties were over a 1000.

 
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