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Brad
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25 posted 09-14-2005 09:47 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
Not convinced that this lets her off the hook except legally, but maybe this will stop the lying about her failure to declare a state of emergency?


Maybe I should have been more emotional at this point?


Balladeer
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26 posted 09-14-2005 10:00 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

That's ok, Brad...I didn't expect an answer.
Ron
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27 posted 09-14-2005 11:12 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

LA. governor takes blame for response AP Wire

I think President Bush's shortcomings in this disaster were the result of poor priorities, perhaps even bordering on incompetence. And that's a shame. Governor Blanco's shortcomings, however, were the result of mean-spirited manipulation. She allegedly prevented the Red Cross from helping in a misguided attempt to force evacuees to leave and prevent others from arriving. And that, if true, is unforgivable.

Personally, however, amidst death and destruction, some of which could have been potentially avoided, it's hard to care overly much about continued accusations of "Bush bashing." Criticism is simply part of the job description, and there's no president since Washington who hasn't faced similar stabs, both justified and unjustified, from political opponents. The appropriate counter is usually the truth, not yet more spin.

Katrina left tens of thousands of victims in her wake. Sorry, Mike, but I for one will continue to have a real tough time seeing President Bush as one of them.
Local Rebel
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28 posted 09-14-2005 11:45 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Yes Ron,

They've both accepted the blame now.  

Are they going to stand in a corner?  What does it mean to accept responsibility for avoidable deaths?

When Brown went through confirmation hearings to be, then, Deputy director of FEMA -- exactly 4 Senators showed up.

What of the Senate oversight?

The Convention Center was far worse than what we'd heard apparently.  Swat teams couldn't even bring it under control. Gangs of armed thugs robbing and shooting, 20-25 men carrying off women and raping them.  The Swat teams would go in with flashlights on their assault rifles, wait for the flash of a muzzle and move toward it.  Citizens curled on the floor in fetal position trying to avoid fire.  If they caught anybody they had no where to put them and no one to gaurd them so they were merely disarmed and released a few blocks away.  The assaulted women had nowhere to go so most of them just went outside and stood too afraid to go back inside. Bush had full authority to go in and put down an insurrection with or without any request or approval from the Governor.
The Governor had resourses to send in for backup.

Brown didn't even know, according to him, there were people in the Convention Center, even though the Mayor had asked FEMA every day since impact to get help getting them out.

Coolidge responded faster to the flood in 1927 than our team did in 2005.

Balladeer
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29 posted 09-15-2005 12:22 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city

I see nothing "alleged" there, Ron...and that's from the Red Cross official website.

My problem is not with the criticism of Bush....that has come to be a given for whatever has gone wrong in the world and Bush is not the first president that has endured that. My complaint is with those so biased and prejudiced that they will completely disregard or ignore pertinent information or actions from any other individuals in their fervor to paint Bush with the blackest paint possible. Amid their comments and sarcastic remarks, they do not address or even acknowledge guilt or shortcomings of anyone else involved. That's no effort to get at the truth....that's simply bashing.

No, I have never said I consider Bush a victim and I don't. Nor do I consider him the anti-Christ. He should have been more presidential and hands-on and he wasn't but, for intelligent people to ignore all of the flaws on all levels of the three governments involved and continue to aim their arrows and insults solely at him, I find to be completely unjust.

I can assure you that if Bush had stopped the Red Cross from delivering food or if Bush has failed to use available buses to evacuate the poor, these same people ignoring these points would be screaming for Bush's head on a platter in righteous indignation and hate. Yet, with other people doing it, somehow it's ignorable.

I thank you for not ignoring it, Ron...

Midnitesun
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30 posted 09-15-2005 12:25 AM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Well, the blame list grows by the minute, almost as fast as the body count.
(Mike, just because I didn't address the culpability of others in this thread doesn't mean I haven't elsewhere.)

Bush IS the Commander in Chief, the President, and he certainly was in a position to do more than he did once it was obviously beyond the abilities of state and local government alone to respond. I think most citizens EXPECT the Feds to be there almost immediately when the stuff hits the fan.

The levees should have been fixed long ago. And ideally, the city should have been emptied out of all living creatures. But I doubt even massive federal intervention would have accomplished that. Many thought that once the hurricane's initial hit was over, they'd be just fine. They didn't believe those levees would give way. And if they did, they didn't anticipate the FORCEFULNESS, the AMOUNT and SPEED of the water.
The nursing home owners are already being sued. And I expect the blame will be spread out over hundreds of more heads before the city is even dry. Bush just happens to be one of the first blame targets, but certainly won't be the only one.
I do think it was a good move to replace FEMA's director with a disaster response professional. That is a step in the right direction.
Balladeer
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31 posted 09-15-2005 12:26 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LR, would you kindly provide the link from where you got that information about the conditions at the convention shelter?
Local Rebel
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32 posted 09-15-2005 06:44 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Sure Mike
  http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/11/national/nationalspecial/11response.html? incamp=article_popular_5

Or if you aren't registered (free) you can listen to interview with reporter Christopher Drew:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4844762
Tim
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33 posted 09-15-2005 08:42 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

and because it was printed in the NYT's and reported on NPR it has to be the truth.

I have no idea what happened, but I will wait until facts are known.  There is just as much credible evidence of the levees being blown up with bombs to save the French Quarter and downtown.  Any number of people in the Superdome knew that happened and Louis Farrakahn reported it happened and I heard it on the radio so obviously it happened.

There was a "credible" story ran of cannablism.  The one thing to understand about the press, they do not most generally lie about what they have heard, but they do report events that are not true because that is what they are told.

Rumors have a life of their own and in a crisis situation they are prone to magnify themselves and without a doubt people believe them, they just do not happen to be true.  Was the situation bad? without a doubt, is it a coincidence two separate eyewitness accounts of atrocities were made by the same person who apparently was in Houston and New Orleans at the same time?

If it turns out the rape of young children did not happen, I wonder what the press will report? Even if some of the reported atrocities did not happen, I wonder if the people who read the papers will ever know or believe the truth of what happened.
Alicat
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34 posted 09-15-2005 10:38 AM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Before the levies broke on Tuesday in New Orleans, the Federal response to other states directly impacted by Hurricane Katrina was more than adequate.  Mississippi and Alabama did everything they could to secure the lives of their citizens, had their National Guards on the scenes, and were in a position where FEMA could respond rapidly.  Things are still bad in those states, but it's more about hurricane damage to buildings and industry.  Even other parts of Louisiana which aren't New Orleans are doing better, since the local officials did what it took to secure their citizens and they knew it would take some time for the Feds to arrive due to travel conditions.

So, New Orleans is the focus.  Evacuations ordered Friday through Sunday.  President Bush pleads, head of NOAA pleads.  Some damage to city but not much.  Monday water ways crest from upstream drainage.  Tuesday several levies are breached.  Tuesday evening is when officials start hollering for the Federal and private assistance which some political creatures blocked for political reasons.

Fact is, the Feds did just about everything they could without breaking Federal and State law.  Granted, there were some logistic issues, and those were cleared as quickly as possible.  For some reason there's those who think when a major storm hits, all the major roads are nice and dry, and free of debris, and that all staging areas are free of any water/wind/structural damage.  Yes, President Bush could've done more.  Yes, FEMA could've done more.  Yes, they could have completely usurped the State and Federal Constitutions to ensure that New Orleans got everything they needed both before, during, and after Katrina's passing.  It's not like President Bush can run for another term or anything, so he's nothing to lose, right?  Not to mention that there would be a new precedence for States of Emergency and Federal Disaster Areas.
Local Rebel
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35 posted 09-15-2005 06:30 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

and because it was printed in the NYT's and reported on NPR it has to be the truth.



quote:

but I will wait until facts are known



When the New York Times and NPR reported that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, ran rape rooms, and aided and abetted Osama Bin Laden -- I don't recall you raising any question about the credibility of those reports Tim.

Of course, as a Prosecutor, you know that substantiating a claim of rape is difficult under ideal conditions.  When infrastructure is gone and there are no doctors, hospitals, or rape crisis centers to gather evidence it is obvious there will never be any evidence to substantiate your facts.  But, we know for fact, that rape is the most under-reported crime to begin with and that the FBI says that only about 2-5% of the reported rapes are false reports.

Certainly counselor, you would stipulate as much.

So, let's try to imagine, in a city where there is chaos and people are looting freely out in the open on the streets and witnesses reported stabbed and shot bodies -- is it possible that gangs of armed thugs attacked people in the Convention Center and took their money and jewelry?  Is it even conceivable that during normal times in a city with one of the highest per-capita murder rates, where you can walk down heavily traveled Canal Street or Bourbon Street, burgeoning with pedestrians all around, that someone will walk up to you with a handgun and take your wallet, is it conceivable counselor that when the power is out, the lights are off and the average citizen is a sitting duck that armed thugs would take their money and jewelry?  Is it conceivable that armed thugs, in said city with one of the highest crime rates in the country, would in fact, drag women off and rape them?

Yes

It is.  But, we don't believe women when they say they've been raped anyway.  We tell them they shouldn't have worn their dress so short.  They shouldn't have been in the place they were in.

Like the young lady in New Orleans I knew who was, driving home one night after partying with friends.  It was late.  She shouldn't have been out at that time of the morning.  But, she was.  And there was a stop light.  A red Mustang pulled up beside her at the light.  A man got out of it and pushed in her window and pulled her out.  He threw her in the Mustang that was occupied by a driver and 2 other men.  He took her car.  They drove her into an alley and gang raped her, broke her jaw completely in two places, pistol-whipped her on the head leaving her brain exposed.  And, they left her pregnant as well.  They took her car, and left her for dead.

She shouldn't have been out at that hour.  And, she shouldn't have been raped.  Just like the people in the Convention Center, who were either too poor to just gas up the SUV with the Visa card or the tourists from the Hotels who's flights were canceled and couldn't get rental cars because there were none -- they shouldn't have been there.  They shouldn't have been raped and robbed.  The officers who were so overwhelmed by the loss of control of the city shouldn't have taken their own lives.  None of it should have happened.  

But, it did.  

If, a facile attempt, at raising doubt helps you sleep at night -- go ahead.  
quote:

Fact is, the Feds did just about everything they could without breaking Federal and State law.



Really?   They sent in the 82nd Airborne?  They sent in the Battan that rode in right behind the storm?  Factually Cat, that statement is about as incorrect as it can be.
Brad
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36 posted 09-15-2005 06:35 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I guess you're right, Ali.

Delay, Boss, Delay
quote:
House Majority Leader Tom DeLay said yesterday that Republicans have done so well in cutting spending that he declared an "ongoing victory," and said there is simply no fat left to cut in the federal budget.
    Mr. DeLay was defending Republicans' choice to borrow money and add to this year's expected $331 billion deficit to pay for Hurricane Katrina relief. Some Republicans have said Congress should make cuts in other areas, but Mr. DeLay said that doesn't seem possible.
    "My answer to those that want to offset the spending is sure, bring me the offsets, I'll be glad to do it. But nobody has been able to come up with any yet," the Texas Republican told reporters at his weekly briefing.
    Asked if that meant the government was running at peak efficiency, Mr. DeLay said, "Yes, after 11 years of Republican majority we've pared it down pretty good.


Is there anybody out there who actually believes this?


Alicat
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37 posted 09-15-2005 06:57 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

That depends on your definition of 'soon after'.  The military personnel from the Army's 82nd Airborne and 1st Cavalry Division, and the Marine's 1st and 2nd Expeditionary Divisions were to be sent around September 3rd, 4 days after the levies broke.

quote:
Bush, who toured the region yesterday, noted that 4,000 active troops already are involved in the hurricane response, primarily working directly on search-and-rescue operations and providing logistical and medical support.

The new forces will include 2,500 troops from the Army's 82nd Airborne and 2,700 from the 1st Cavalry Division and about 2,000 from the Marines' 1st and 2nd Expeditionary forces, military officials said.


Source, Sept 3, 2005
Balladeer
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38 posted 09-15-2005 07:50 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Just like the people in the Convention Center, who were either too poor to just gas up the SUV with the Visa card or the tourists from the Hotels who's flights were canceled and couldn't get rental cars because there were none

....or didn't get seats on the buses Nagin didn't send because he couldn't find drivers because you know very well the city employees don't even show up on sunny days, much less on rainy ones.
Brad
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39 posted 09-15-2005 08:29 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Oh my gosh, you mean Nagin screwed up too?

I thought it was all Blanco's fault.

Tim
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40 posted 09-15-2005 08:52 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

one should never assume facts.  I am not a prosecutor.  I once was, but no longer.

What is the attempt to bring up the weapons of mass destruction?  Is that a what they call a red herring?  

I have far more experience than you do I suspect in rape, child molestation, murder and any number of depravities of the human race, so I am not real taken by emotional appeal.  I will still stick with the facts which I suspect are bad enough, but I still don't believe everything I read in the paper and will wait for the truth to emerge.
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41 posted 09-15-2005 09:00 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

That's weak, Brad...
Brad
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42 posted 09-15-2005 09:26 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Nah, weak would have been, I don't know, posting a few of the stupid quotes that people have been saying over the last couple of weeks:

the things people say

quote:
1) "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees." –President Bush, on "Good Morning America," Sept. 1, 2005, six days after repeated warnings from experts about the scope of damage expected from Hurricane Katrina (Source)

2) "What I'm hearing which is sort of scary is that they all want to stay in Texas. Everybody is so overwhelmed by the hospitality. And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway so this (chuckle) – this is working very well for them." –Former First Lady Barbara Bush, on the hurricane evacuees at the Astrodome in Houston, Sept. 5, 2005 (Source)

4) "Considering the dire circumstances that we have in New Orleans, virtually a city that has been destroyed, things are going relatively well." –FEMA Director Michael Brown, Sept. 1, 2005 (Source)

5) "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job." –President Bush, to FEMA director Michael Brown, while touring hurricane-ravaged Mississippi, Sept. 2, 2005 (Source)

6) "Now tell me the truth boys, is this kind of fun?" –House Majority Leader Tom Delay (R-TX), to three young hurricane evacuees from New Orleans at the Astrodome in Houston, Sept. 9, 2005 (Source)


Now that would have been weak and shameless. And you know I'd never do anything like that.


Brad
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43 posted 09-15-2005 09:40 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

A little more seriously:

quote:
Bush IS the Commander in Chief, the President, and he certainly was in a position to do more than he did once it was obviously beyond the abilities of state and local government alone to respond. I think most citizens EXPECT the Feds to be there almost immediately when the stuff hits the fan.


--Midnitesun

One of the arguments that can be gleaned from the attack dogs is that we shouldn't depend on the feds (they don't say this but I assume we shouldn't depend on the states or locals either).

This one's hard to debunk. Doesn't it make sense to "be prepared"?

Have we somehow been duped by a style of tough talking into actually believing that government is going to do what it is they say they're going to do?

----------------------

*I probably shouldn't use 'we' here but it sounded better that way.


Local Rebel
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44 posted 09-15-2005 10:14 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

wait for the truth to emerge



which will come to you how? via osmosis?  
Balladeer
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45 posted 09-15-2005 10:16 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Thank you, Brad. Your comment proves my point...no comments about anyone except the federal goverment or Bush. Everyone else involved was ok, I suppose, according to you.

Nightline ran a special tonight on a day-by-day account of the entire situation. Guess what? When Bush said no one anticipated the breach of the levees, Koppel agreed with him, as did everyone else. The report was impartial. It was not kind to  Bush or FeMA but it also showed that the local and state government did nothing except run around in confusion, not knowing what to do. They did not ask for help when they should have, they told everyone buses were coming at the same time buses were being flooded, they did not provide any security or provisions, they kept the Red cross out....it could have been a real eye-opener to you, if you had not been so busy looking for Bush comments to watch it. But, hey, i guess it's more fun your way, right?
Alicat
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46 posted 09-15-2005 10:32 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

And in his Address on location in New Orleans, President Bush took total responsibility for the Government's failings in the Katrina aftermath.  He is the Commander in Chief, and President of the United States, and as such, is ultimately responsible for the good, bad, and neutral.

To the Bush-Haters, happy yet?
Local Rebel
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47 posted 09-15-2005 11:00 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I'm wondering if the Bush supporters are happy Cat?  

This guy just laid out a speech that could have come from the most liberal Democrat... billions for reconstruction -- and it's going to be placed in the hands, apparently, of the Governor and Mayor -- we're supposed to give these two idiots 200 billion dollars to spend?

How is the Congress going to oversee that Federal spending if it's being controlled by the state and local governments?  How is that going to work?

We're going to end poverty by spending money???  Really?  Is that what he said?  Poverty is the result of racism and discrimination?  How well is that playing with conservatives?

When we rebuild we, no doubt, have to include the public housing alongside middle-class working areas so that there is interaction and role models for people -- that's the real problem is the location of the real estate -- having vast areas of nothing but public housing and poverty... I hope that's what he was getting at.

Balladeer
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48 posted 09-16-2005 12:43 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The Devil may start passing out ice skates, LR, because I agree with you. It has always been a democratic ploy to throw money at a problem to make it go away...education being a prime example. Bush told many people what they wanted to hear and it is indeed a worthy goal....but the devil is definitely in the details. Simply passing the money out would be disasterous. There is also a question of where the money will come from. Already there is rumbling from other states about why should they be saddled with higher taxes because a natural disaster hit another part of the country? I think Bush has thrown out the popular things to say but has not yet given a lot of thought to how this will be done. On the other hand it will certainly provide a lot of jobs to areas where the unemployment rate is over 20%, like New Orleans. On the other hand, if the populace are, like according to Nagel, not even willing to show up for work on sunny days it won't help them much but it will a lot of workers who will come in from other states. A lot of the people who are standing around, screaming "The government better do something!" should be out there doing something themselves...but, then, that's not the world we live in, is it?
Alicat
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49 posted 09-16-2005 01:54 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

President Bush can give all the details possible, yet it's still up to Congress to make anything happen.  Often, it's best to give ideas, suggestions, and views, then let Congress figure out the details.  That body really hates it when they're handed a detailed manifest.  As for funding, again, that's up to the Senators and Representatives, as they could use a goodly amount of the pork spending in the latest economic package towards paying for these needed programs.  Like two very expensive bridges in Alaska which go basically nowhere, and the indoor rain forest habitat in Iowa.  I'm still trying to work my brain around why a rain forest is needed in Iowa.

As for Federal oversight, that makes sense to me.  Every state was given a lot of money for homeland defense measures in the immediate wake of 9/11.  Even today, there's states which haven't spent a dime of the funds for homeland defense measures.  The states were given the funds sans oversight, and the state beaurocracies took over and made it into a pig's ear.  All the time local agencies were hollering about the Feds not doing enough, their own states were the bottleneck in fund dispersal.

In the end, it really doesn't matter.  As has been proven time and again, it won't matter what President Bush does or tries to do; there'll always be something wrong with it, always something for the anti crowd to frenzy feed.  Does make me wonder though what Senators Pelosi, Boxer and Rangle have done for the common interest and good of this nation in the past 5 years.
 
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