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Juju
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since 12-29-2003
Posts 3353
In your dreams


0 posted 09-07-2005 09:55 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

I am sorry, but if the local government would of handled this correctly none of this would of happened in the first place. From an engineering stand point the fact that they didn't pump out that darn lake when it was so high. The fact when they knew there was going to be flooding, because of the levy breaking that they didn't nock a hole to let it drain some where else so it wouldn't be so bad, the fact that they didn't order a get out of NEw Orleans once they found out the levy broke

I am sorry. But you know what!  Cities have plans for this. At least in Minnesota.  It makes me angry as a conservative that the local government didn't act like it shoulda.  But you know what it is too late now and guess what, it is a horrible ....  It is the local governments responcibility to prevent the situation from being bad to worse so the federal government can help.  it is called colaborating, which is sopmething that I find thAT some poeple in the system are encapable of doing.

[This message has been edited by Juju (09-09-2005 10:26 AM).]

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


1 posted 09-07-2005 11:27 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I don't have any problem pointing the finger at both the locals and the feds:
http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/theme_home2.jsp

quote:
In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility on March 1st for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort.  The new Department will also prioritize the important issue of citizen preparedness. Educating America's families on how best to prepare their homes for a disaster and tips for citizens on how to respond in a crisis will be given special attention at DHS.


Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


2 posted 09-08-2005 12:00 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/theme_home2.jsp

On page 42 of the NRP (National Response Plan), it states the following:

quote:
Guiding Principles for Proactive Federal Response
Guiding principles for proactive Federal response include the following:
¡á The primary mission is to save lives; protect critical infrastructure, property, and the environment; contain the event; and preserve national security.
¡á Standard procedures regarding requests for assistance may be expedited or, under extreme circumstances, suspended in the immediate aftermath of an event of
catastrophic magnitude.

¡á Identified Federal response resources will deploy and begin necessary operations as required to commence life-safety activities.
¡á Notification and full coordination with States will occur, but the coordination process must not delay or impede the rapid deployment and use of critical resources.  States are urged to notify and coordinate with local governments regarding a proactive Federal response.


And there you have it. The tools were already in place to bypass local and state ineptitude. Now, if this hasn't been an event of catastrophic magnitude, I don't don't know what would be.

------------------------

Note: This information comes from TPM cafe, I didn't do the homework.
http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/9/4/171811/1974

Mistletoe Angel
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 5 Tours
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since 12-17-2000
Posts 34089
City of Roses


3 posted 09-08-2005 12:05 AM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

I absolutely agree, Juju!

And I agree vice-versa too, in that the federal government must also assume its role in collaborating with the local government.

Everything truly is interconnected, isn't it?

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Alicat
Member Elite
since 05-23-99
Posts 4277
Coastal Texas


4 posted 09-08-2005 12:34 AM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

As we have seen and studied about this great nation since its founding, there's always been strife between State vs Federal.  Too little State creates a Dictatorial.  Too little Federal creates Socialism.  It's a very careful balance, always being tested and weighed.  Due to the Checks and Balances, there's some things the Feds can do without the consent of the States, and things the States can do without the consent of the Feds.  By the same token, there are things on both sides with NEED consent.

Katrina was a major hurricane, and ushered damage from the Gulf Coast up through Ohio.  The Feds requested juristiction in Louisiana and were denied.  State vs Federal again.  Actions have consequences, which I've stated many times before, and that one will have far reaching ones.  Sadly, most will be played out on the Federal level, though I'm sure some news will be devoted to the next state governor and New Orleans mayorial elections, not to mention other elected officials.  I'm certain NO has a City Council, and do find it strange that there's been no peep nor mention about them.  In the coming months, we'll see the even more of the Blame Game, massive reviews, a smorgasborg of CYA, defensive and offensive measure to grow a larger political base, and even more stupidity.

The local DSH officials in LA should own up, as should the Mayor and Governor.  As mentioned in another thread, I hold Mayor Nagin a little less accountible due to his political inexperience.  If allowed to stay, I'm sure he'll definately learn from this and will become a much better Mayor from it.  However, putting visiting hotel evacuees at the head of the bus line before displaced residents may very well cost him.  The main stream media might forget, but not his constituents.

I do find it incongruous that the Republican Mayors and Governors aren't nearly causing the amount of stink and backpeddeling as the Democratic Mayors and Governors in the Gulf Region.  I would say 'I wonder why that is?', but I already know the answer.  Fear of relinquishing power for societal betterment to the opposition party.  Crying shame that.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


5 posted 09-08-2005 01:33 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

There were some interesting points made
by observers to Charlie Rose on PBS today.
One pointed out that in the Southern States,
there persists a culture, reflected in their laws,
that wants and seeks to keep the Federal government
if not out then at least at a distance, (which is what
they fought a war over).  As Alicat has already pointed
out, the Federal government needed state action and/or approval
before it could legally become involved.  It seemed
at least one observer was criticizing the Federal government
for not ignoring the laws and invading Louisiana
to save it from itself.

And now there are some sixty thousand uniforms in the
area who are now being also asked to forcibly remove
thousands who still refuse to leave while dealing with
armed gangs and snipers.

The observers also noted the difference in action,
leadership, and their consequences between the Governors
of Louisiana and Mississippi.

Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


6 posted 09-08-2005 02:02 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Except that it wouldn't have been illegal:
http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/theme_home2.jsp

On page 42 of the NRP (National Response Plan), it states the following:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Guiding Principles for Proactive Federal Response
Guiding principles for proactive Federal response include the following:
¡á The primary mission is to save lives; protect critical infrastructure, property, and the environment; contain the event; and preserve national security.
¡á Standard procedures regarding requests for assistance may be expedited or, under extreme circumstances, suspended in the immediate aftermath of an event of
catastrophic magnitude.
¡á Identified Federal response resources will deploy and begin necessary operations as required to commence life-safety activities.
¡á Notification and full coordination with States will occur, but the coordination process must not delay or impede the rapid deployment and use of critical resources.  States are urged to notify and coordinate with local governments regarding a proactive Federal response.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And there you have it. The tools were already in place to bypass local and state ineptitude. Now, if this hasn't been an event of catastrophic magnitude, I don't don't know what would be.

Juju
Member Elite
since 12-29-2003
Posts 3353
In your dreams


7 posted 09-08-2005 08:08 AM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

My point is meerly the local turned a bad situation worse.  I mean look at from anengineering standpoint. what a tragity.

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

Juju
Member Elite
since 12-29-2003
Posts 3353
In your dreams


8 posted 09-08-2005 08:15 AM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

And brad sure if you say so but that is not my point. my point is the local government messed up.  I have strong suspicion that there was no plan for this disaster or if there was it wasn't followed.  in which case osha is gonna do some major fining.  The local government made things worse.    

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


9 posted 09-08-2005 09:05 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

And my point is that they both screwed up -- locals and feds. Blame neither if you want, blame both if you want.

I, obviously, prefer the latter.


Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


10 posted 09-08-2005 11:07 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Brad, I can't seem to find the date when that National Response Plan was passed into Law by our legislative branch?

Not that I'm sure it would matter a whole lot. The Feds don't have the Constitutional power to set highway speed limits, either, but that hasn't stopped them from threatening to withhold Federal funds from states that don't accede to their demands. State Rights have been on the decline for decades, so it shouldn't be too surprising that State Responsibilities would follow them.


Juju
Member Elite
since 12-29-2003
Posts 3353
In your dreams


11 posted 09-08-2005 01:40 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

So its the federal government responcibility to chsck and make sure the leveys don't break! hah.  Man I hope some one else sees this not as a federal responcibility and as what it is.  one of the greatest engineering flops ever.  Which would ly on the local government.

-Juju

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


12 posted 09-08-2005 08:03 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I don't know if it was specifically approved, but I'm not sure it had to be. The formation of the Department of Homeland Security, which was approved, mandates the formation of the NRP.

quote:
The U. S. Department of Homeland Security, in partnership with federal departments and agencies, state, local and tribal officials, private sector and national and international associations, announced completion of the National Response Plan.

¡°The National Response Plan embodies our nation¡¯s commitment to the concept of one team, one goal -- a safer and more secure America,¡± said Secretary of Homeland Security Tom Ridge. ¡°Completion of the National Response Plan has been one of my department¡¯s highest priorities, and this achievement is a bold step forward in bringing unity in our response to disasters and terrorist threats and attacks.

http://www.govpro.com/ASP/ViewArticle.asp?strArticleId=104319


quote:
The national preparedness system (NPS) under development within the
Department of Homeland Security (DHS) holds significant implications for the
operations and priorities of homeland security officials, emergency managers, and
first responders. The NPS documents and the procedures issued in 2004 and 2005
will guide federal funding allocation decisions, direct federal and non-federal efforts
to build emergency response capabilities, establish the means by which homeland
security priorities will be set, and save lives and property when catastrophes occur.
Work on the NPS stems from authority set out in the Homeland Security Act of 2002
(P.L. 107-296), the DHS appropriations legislation for FY2005 (P.L. 108-334), and
executive directives issued by President Bush.


authority

I can get you more if you want.

The whole point is that the DHS was supposed to solve the problems that people are hiding behind now. It was supposed to be better, faster, stronger -- it just cost a lot more than six million dollars.

It didn't work.


Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


13 posted 09-08-2005 08:07 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

JuJu,

The whole point of the DHS is to make any national disaster a coordinated effort.

It's not an either/or issue.

Juju
Member Elite
since 12-29-2003
Posts 3353
In your dreams


14 posted 09-08-2005 08:59 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Brad.... I know that but the events wich lead to this disaster being worse was caused pimarly by the state/local government.  There actions made things worse.

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


15 posted 09-08-2005 09:53 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Sigh.

But if you look at the history of this thing, I don't see how you can separate the local, state, and feds for responsibility, for accountability.

Maybe we should, maybe it should be that way, but I don't see it now.
Juju
Member Elite
since 12-29-2003
Posts 3353
In your dreams


16 posted 09-08-2005 11:42 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Well obviously the grown educated adults can't cooperate so we will have to.  Because that is a very good point. no one new what to do and it was all implied. (this comming from the other topic) All it took was one state to prove that even in society, when there are alterior motives, it doesn't matter how many lives will be ruined or what ever. It breaks my heart that these poeple (yeah republicans too) think it is ok to not process this correctly is only proof that if something doesn't happen it will only be another city.

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


17 posted 09-08-2005 11:55 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I don't know if it was specifically approved, but I'm not sure it had to be.

I'm not sure it would have made any difference, either, Brad. Regulation or Law, it would probably be unconstitutional in either case. Writing something down doesn't always give it the force of law, and generally speaking, federal agencies don't get to invade States without a whole lot of due process.

What gets me about this conversation, here and in other threads, is the rather childlike notion that spreading the blame around dilutes it in some way. "Johnny and Sue stole a cookie, too, Mommy. Johnny ate TWO of 'em!" It matters not at all who screwed up first, or even who screwed up worst. There's clearly enough blame to pass around the table two or three times, and frankly, I think there should be plenty enough repercussions to cover the blame like a hot, thick gravy.
Juju
Member Elite
since 12-29-2003
Posts 3353
In your dreams


18 posted 09-09-2005 10:11 AM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

But Ron I am A child.

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

Juju
Member Elite
since 12-29-2003
Posts 3353
In your dreams


19 posted 09-09-2005 10:25 AM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

And I like my gravy.  I'm Belgian.  Over all Ron I wasn't going to play the blame game, but it bothered me that some one didn't see this side of it.  Because Ron I am not politically motivated, just motivated to point out something no one else saw. The worse thing about what I listed on the first post were all things they can still do. So you can not believe my randomness or see that over all I am a little odd.  

-Juju

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

Juju will be notified of replies
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