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Balladeer
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0 posted 2005-09-06 07:46 PM



...but what is happening here, is a major error and disgrace...and please, when you watch the news....don't you dare let them wiggle their way outa this.

---LeeJ
We should shout in outrage at the delays. And all I saw from the Pres? another idiot photo op.
---MidniteSun



There is no doubt that this tragedy is by far the greatest opportunity the Bush bashers have had yet. This entire ordeal is Bush's fault. I happen to agree that the government could have certainly handled it better but it's all Bush's fault? What he did was turn to Homeland Security and FEMA, who performed less than adequately. By the time that became obvious people were screaming for Bush's head. Is that realistic? Let's put Clinton in office at this time doing the same thing. Would liberals then scream at Clinton or would they symphathize with Bill at how his organizations let him down? Would Hillary be leading an investigation against FEMA, citing a republican plot to cause them to fail, thus pointing an undeserved amount of abuse at her hubby? But in this case, it's all Bush. He should have flown the helicopters, plugged the break in the levee single-handedly and cooked the meals for the victims. Bush could not do everything. He turned it over to those who were supposed to and they came up short.

There are other things to consider, though, for those with minds open enough to listen.

FEMA is not a first line agency. The state and local leaders are....it's their state and they are there and in control. How did they do?

The authority to order the evacuation of residents threatened by an approaching hurricane is conferred to the Governor by Louisiana Statute. The Governor is granted the power to direct and compel the evacuation of all or part of the population from a stricken or threatened area within the State, if he deems this action necessary for the preservation of life or other disaster mitigation, response or recovery. The same power to order an evacuation conferred upon the Governor is also delegated to each political subdivision of the State by Executive Order. This authority empowers the chief elected official of New Orleans, the Mayor of New Orleans, to order the evacuation of the parish residents threatened by an approaching hurricane.

General evacuations that may result from an approaching hurricane will be ordered by the Mayor of the City, upon the recommendation of the Director of the Office of Emergency Preparedness. The area affected by the warning may range from blocks and portions of neighborhoods, to the entire city.

New Orleans Hurricane Emergency Evacuation Standard Operating Procedures


Louisiana Governor Kathleen Babineaux Blanco...what did she do? You may be surprised...

By Manuel Roig-Franzia and Spencer Hsu
Washington Post Staff Writers
Sunday, September 4, 2005; Page A01

Behind the scenes, a power struggle emerged, as federal officials tried to wrest authority from Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco (D). Shortly before midnight Friday, the Bush administration sent her a proposed legal memorandum asking her to request a federal takeover of the evacuation of New Orleans, a source within the state’s emergency operations center said Saturday.

The administration sought unified control over all local police and state National Guard units reporting to the governor. Louisiana officials rejected the request after talks throughout the night, concerned that such a move would be comparable to a federal declaration of martial law. Some officials in the state suspected a political motive behind the request. "Quite frankly, if they’d been able to pull off taking it away from the locals, they then could have blamed everything on the locals," said the source, who does not have the authority to speak publicly.

Louisiana did not reach out to a multi-state mutual aid compact for assistance until Wednesday, three state and federal officials said.

Blanco made two moves Saturday that protected her independence from the federal government: She created a philanthropic fund for the state's victims and hired James Lee Witt, Federal Emergency Management Agency director in the Clinton administration, to advise her on the relief effort.



What all that means is that the federal government requested from her permission to conduct the evacuation of NewOrleans and assume command of the police departments and national guard. I think the federal government could have done it better, especially since the state did almost nothing. She refused. Why? She is a Democrat, afraid of turning control over to a Republican president for political ramifications. She allowed people to die rather than take the chance she might be giving Republicans a political advantage.

(excerpt from Washington Post)

Though experts had long predicted that the city -- which sits mostly below sea level and is surrounded by water -- would face unprecedented devastation after an immense hurricane, they said problems were worsened by a late evacuation order and insufficient emergency shelter for as many as 100,000 people.

Jack Harrald, director of the Institute for Crisis, Disaster and Risk Management at George Washington University, said researchers and academics have for years been studying New Orleans because of its particular vulnerabilities to disaster. In the Natural Hazards Observer in Nov. 2004, Shirley Laska, director of the Center for Hazards Assessment, Response and Technology at the University of New Orleans, predicted a direct hit could produce "conditions never before experienced in a North American disaster" and said evacuation problems would be severe.

"They didn't get people out. There was a late mandatory evacuation, and it's a very exposed position," Harrald said yesterday. "The realization of how serious the situation was not shared in all directions."

Martha A. Madden, former secretary of the Louisiana Department of Environmental Quality, said she believes a critical systemic breakdown occurred the moment the levee broke. She said contingency plans have been in place for decades but were either ignored or improperly executed.


Mayor Ray Nagin? What did he do (besides scream at the administration?)

Here is a quote from page 13 of the Southeast Louisiana Evacuation Plan, last revised in 2000:

“5. The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating.”

Source: http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/EOPSupplement1a.pdf  


Did Mayor Nagin use these resources to get those without means evacuated? Let's have a look at those buses...




"Louisiana Governor
Kathleen Babineaux
Blanco commented, "The buses could have saved an estimated 20,000 people if they had been used for emergency evacuations which President Bush had declared two days before Katrina hit."
"According to WWLTV, during a news conference on Sunday before the hurricane struck, Mayor Nagin claimed he "could and would commandeer any property or vehicle it deemed necessary to provide safe shelter or transport for those in need", but hundreds of vehicles, including city and school district buses, went unused.

http://www.juiceenewsdaily.com/0605/sports/buses.html?1125879106453

Experts said one of the major problems with the response effort was an ineffective evacuation that began just 24 hours before the storm hit. Though models for such a storm accurately portrayed the circumstances that arose -- a levee breach, flooding, stagnant water, inaccessible portions of the city and large numbers of people unable to leave -- more than 100,000 people remained when the storm hit.


(excerpt from Exempt Media)

There was simply no excuse for those people to be in harms way. There were plenty of buses. The Federal Government told them to evaculate a full two days in advance of the Storm's approach. Mr. Mayor, why didn't you use the buses to get those people out?

The City of New Orleans failed their own people; NOT the Government of the United States. The Mayor didn't do his job. He and his staff are shifting the blame to the Government, hoping that no one notices that THEY are in fact the first stop in the fault line. Read the City of New Orleans disaster plan. Again, look at the "waiting and unused" buses and tell me, "Who screwed up?"


...and where was the Mayor while all this was going on? he ran off to Baton Rouge despite his responsibility to oversee the execution of the emergency-response plans and ranted at Bush for not reacting quickly enough to the disaster.


A politically-biased governor, an ineffective mayor and a levee system that has been ignored for over 40 years. Reb may stick in that Bush cut funding which may or may not have contributed to this, but what about the other 35 years the warnings have been there? If New Orleans were your house with water around you higher that you house sat and, knowing that if it failed you would die....wouldn't you consider that something of a priority? Louisiana hasn't had any money in t he past 40 years for that?

Now, and not unexpectedly, we have the race card being played.

Grammy award-winning rapper/producer Kanye West appeared on a live on-air telethon simulcast on NBC, MSNBC, CNBC and PAX for Hurricane Katrina victims. Live on air, West said "George Bush doesn't care about black people," after saying "America is set up to help the poor, the black people, the less well-off as slow as possible." He also said "the Red Cross is doing everything they can," and stated that he was going to see what the maximum amount of money he can donate is. West criticized government authorities and stated that "They've given them permission to go down and shoot us."

Jesse Jackson was asked about the sniper activity, to which he responded that he felt it had been exaggerated. When asked how long he had been there, he replied "2 hours" so in two hours he was able to come up with that conclusion, while reports were still coming in and policement being shot.

Oprah Winfrey, in her show today, insinuated that ifit were a "white folks" area, relief would have come sooner....needless to say, I have lost all respect for her.


It's not unnatural to be angry. To see bodies floating down the streets of a major city, to have video of the incredible destruction, to hear stories of the suffering endured by so many.....one has to get angry. People got angry after 9-11, too. They couldn't get ahold of Bin Laden so they got mad at the government. In this case, there's no use getting mad at God because he ain't listening, can't get mad at Katrina because she is blowing gentle breezes on lovers' cheeks in northern Canada or somewhere...so go after the government and, for all the folks who have eagerly put Bush in their sites for so many years, go after Bush. People, this was the worst natural disaster in the nation's history. Accept it. Helicopters are not going to fly in over 45 mph weather no matter how much you want them to. Emergency aid cannot appear in seconds no matter how badly it is needed or how badly you want to see it happen. There were areas where inefficiency was obvious and corrections need to be made....we make them and learn. Screaming at one man gets you nowhere and accomplishes nothing....


[This message has been edited by Alicat (09-06-2005 09:13 PM).]

© Copyright 2005 Michael Mack - All Rights Reserved
Larry C
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1 posted 2005-09-06 07:55 PM


Ya' know anyway you cut it this whole thing is a tragedy. Period. I still think the frequency of hurricanes ends up in a "wolf, wolf" scenario. It's easy to point fingers after the fact but in advance too many think it's survivable.

If tears could build a stairway and memories a lane, I'd walk right up to heaven and bring you home again.

Balladeer
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2 posted 2005-09-06 07:57 PM


From a state that hosts (or used to host) "hurricane parties", I have to agree with you, Larry.
Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea
3 posted 2005-09-06 09:00 PM


quote:
What he did was turn to Homeland Security and FEMA, who performed less than adequately.


"Louisiana is a city under water"

Then let's focus on that.

quote:
Bush could not do everything. He turned it over to those who were supposed to and they came up short.


Then let's, wait, I'm saying the same thing twice.

I will never understand your veneration for this President -- once being a Japanese studies grad. student, I'm often reminded of what was said (or not said) about Hirohito.

But I don't care anymore.

If you want to point fingers at Nagin and other local officials, go ahead (I have the time line over on LR's thread to try to give some context to their actions), but that doesn't leave Brownie and Chertoff off the hook.

quote:
"The responsibility," of government, Churchill told the British Parliament "for the public safety is absolute and requires no mandate. It is in fact, the prime object for which governments come into existence."

----------------------------


*the two quotes (the first is Chertoff) are from Keith Obermann:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8514671/

Balladeer
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4 posted 2005-09-06 09:19 PM


I thank you for your permission, Brad
Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea
5 posted 2005-09-06 09:39 PM


You're welcome.
Local Rebel
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6 posted 2005-09-06 09:42 PM


quote:

It's not unnatural to be angry. To see bodies floating down the streets of a major city, to have video of the incredible destruction, to hear stories of the suffering endured by so many.....one has to get angry. People got angry after 9-11, too. They couldn't get ahold of Bin Laden so they got mad at the government. In this case, there's no use getting mad at God because he ain't listening, can't get mad at Katrina because she is blowing gentle breezes on lovers' cheeks in northern Canada or somewhere...so go after the government and, for all the folks who have eagerly put Bush in their sites for so many years, go after Bush. People, this was the worst natural disaster in the nation's history. Accept it. Helicopters are not going to fly in over 45 mph weather no matter how much you want them to. Emergency aid cannot appear in seconds no matter how badly it is needed or how badly you want to see it happen. There were areas where inefficiency was obvious and corrections need to be made....we make them and learn. Screaming at one man gets you nowhere and accomplishes nothing....




Anyone who has ever spent any time in or around Lousiana knows about the corruption in that system.  Blanco is finished.  Nagin -- I don't know... they don't call it the Big Easy for nothing.

They will have to face the music for their respective sins Mike.  

There is no denying though that FEMA is a disaster -- and that GW put his cronie buddy in charge of it -- you just don't do that with an agency like FEMA -- you make him an ambassador to some benign country -- you don't give him a job he has no experience with.

Chertoff -- I personally give a pass too -- he's too new to DHS to hang it on him.  But the buck stops at the top.  This agency is supposed to be able to respond to a terrorist attack.  Bin Laden isn't going to sit off the coast a couple of days and give us fair warning.

I would think that it would be the people who voted for the guy who would be the angriest about this -- and many of them are -- it isn't just lefties out there Bush bashing - but there's plenty of it -- and they're definitely trying to pin the fall of Adam and Eve on the guy.  That shouldn't stop the rest of us from carrying on a reasonable discussion about these people who are working for us.

Nice job on the thread -- but... I'll make the same request I always make of Noah -- Please don't center the text for prose -- standard paragraphs are much easier and faster to read.. and.. I want to read what you have to say.

Balladeer
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7 posted 2005-09-06 10:58 PM


On Bush's tenure, FEMA has handled the Washington earthquake, Tropical Storm Allison, Hurrican Lili, Tropical Storm Isidore and, of course, 9-11. I have not heard of any harsh criticisms concerning those events - not saying there weren't any but I don't recall them. If Bin Laden were to strike with a similar tactic, such as blowing the Hoover Dam or hitting a nuclear power station, I daresay FEMA, or any other organization, would be equally as hampered.

I realize, of course, that the buck stops at the top - a phrase the press was eager to use at the White House press conference today - but should the buck always get to the top? If that is the case, then whoever sits in the Oval Office may be blasted for anything that happens in the United States. If a worker at GM does something that makes thousands of cars unsafe, is the President of GM responsible? I suppose so but is it realistic? If your view is that the FEMA Bush nominee is an incompetent oaf that should never have been placed in that position, I certainly understand your outrage. I haven't heard that many negative things about him before this incident to make that statement - but, then, I don't get out much.

Yes, I have spent time in Louisiana. I went to school there, living in both Monroe and Slidell. Bossier City turned this high school kid into a man I knew every building on Bourbon Street and most of the second-floor apartments. Nagel is safe. No one would dare attack a black mayor at this time, regardless of his actions, or lack of. That's one of the things that made Oprah's comments so laughable. Based on her conclusions, a black Mayor would have done more to save a white population than a black one. I wonder if she considered that...

I will certainly honor your request concerning not centering, as long as that's not a sneaky way to get me to move to the LEFT!



Alicat
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8 posted 2005-09-06 11:12 PM


I'll give Mayor Nagin a little bit of a pass.  After all, before he was elected Mayor (I found this hard to believe, but it's true), he was an accountant for Cox (cable providor).  No city council, no PTA Board (that I know of), not even sure if he was a board member for a Home Owner Associate or a leader for Neighborhood Watch...no prior political experience.  Granted, he has learned a bit in the few years he's held office, but was never really tested like more political mayors are tested.  And he froze up.  He just didn't do enough mayorial homework, especially regarding Emergency Proceedures, and had never really had anything major happen during his tenure.  Then Baptism by Fire and Water.

What's the major difference between New Orleans after Katrina and NYC after 9/11?  Mayors.  Guilliani was a seasoned pro, and knew how government worked, and what strings to pull to get something done.  Nagin, by comparison, is a rank amateur.  Sure, he could've been helped a lot by Governor Blanco, but she was too busy practicing CYA to be of much assistance.  She's been in politics much longer though.

Nagin gets a bit of a pass, Blanco gets none.  Disaster response starts from within the state, not Federal from without.

Mistletoe Angel
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9 posted 2005-09-07 12:18 PM


Michael, I knew well you would come out and say just this, so not being surprised by your reaction, I am prepared to respond.

(I just read that earlier response critiquing my constant usage of the "centering" of text here, so in respect of the poster, I will align my text to the left, and not because many of my views usually lean strongly to the left, LOL! )

*****

First and foremost, I am not blaming Bush alone, but the government in general, as I have specifically stated in both the Katrina and A Necessary Rant threads where I also sharply criticized Michael Brown, Mchael Chertoff, FETA in general, etc. I do believe Bush is greatly to blame here indeed because while New Orleans was drowning to begin with and many were already aware and warned of the dangers, he was busy in California on Tuesday continuing to defend his disastrous Iraq mission in comparing it to World War II and strumming guitar with Mark Wills, then later returned to his ranch, and FINALLY on Wednesday morning went back to Washington as though he had just learned about the news of Katrina.

Bush is not just the president, he's our commander-in-chief too. He swore an oath on his Inauguration Day to do everything in his power to protect America, our Constitution and our liberties. He agreed to work "for the people", the ultimate duty and responsibility of being president. And he failed miserably last week in living up to his word, and because of his late response in part with the government in general, dozens have died on their watch.

If Bush had responded immediately, the National Guard would have been there two to two-and-a-half days earlier than they were too. Being the commander-in-chief, you blow the whistle and they'll do just as they're told. He wasn't there to blow the whistle until much of the worst was already happening.

I find it completely understandable why Bush is among the center of this heated finger-pointing situation. Whether or not each person elected him, he is OUR president, he is OUR elected leader. But where was the leadership? Many who elected him last year, like yourself certainly, did so because you trusted that he was the man who would defend this great nation. You truly felt a deep trust in him that he would fulfill his oath, his word to the max, and work for the people.

Bush has himself to blame largely here because he has done the opposite in the past week. He said twice that "we are not satisfied" when touring down there. Not satisfied with what? He just can't make his story straight. What does he mean by "we"?
Why didn't Bush just say, "I'm not satisfied with my government's response."

What I find absolutely disturbing is that while the administration didn't respond swiftly in the rescue mission for the victims down there, they instead are using all their energy swiftly on a rescue mission on their own selves. It just strikes me that their emotions to the tragedy are disingenuous and selfish, that they seem to value their careers over others lives.

And the worst part of all here is, because of his total lack of leadership here, in consequence of that, he in part with the government has damaged many's confidence in our ability to trust or rely on the White House, which I fear this may last for years, and certainly through the end of Bush's second term.

I said before I believe I would do a better job as president than him, and remember how many laughed of absurdity of the comment. After that display especially, I truly believe just traveling straight there and calling for the mobilization of all efforts possible to go out there and rescue those stranded and in need of necessities could show that I would make a better leader than him under that situation. Indeed I don't want to come off sounding incredibly pompous here as I don't believe I ever want to jump into the political field anyway as a vast majority of it truly is all just blood-sucking tick sports and I want to represent the nation at the local level, representing for the people and not for the few at the top in cubicles, but I truly believe so many could have responded much more professionally than that last week.

That is precisely why I consider Bush one of the greatest people to blame here. I remember how many in the months following 9/11, when some began learning about his intent to go to Iraq, that those who questioned and dissented were being pointed at and were told that they think they forget that Bush is not just the president, he is the commander-in-chief as well. But this time around, I think it's the other way around, and Bush failed to play his role as commander-in-chief and just go out there on the spot and mobilize all humanitarian and military efforts in wake of the storm.

*****

Secondly, Michael, you're forgetting or denying that it is not just the usual suspects you often refer to as "Bush-bashers" like myself who have frequently criticized him on a majority of his policies like the war in Iraq (which I still consider senseless by all means) and the Patriot Act that are pointing their fingers at Bush here or consider him very much or partially at fault.

Fellow Republicans, old-school conservatives and conservative thinktanks have also come out expressing their strong disapproval. Many of the victims and families themselves angered of the response taking so long mentioned Bush in name.
http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showa.html?article=59785

The New Hampshire Union Leader, one of the most famous and credible conservative papers in America, have sharply criticized Bush:

"A better leader would have flown straight to the disaster zone and announced the immediate mobilization of every available resource to rescue the stranded, find and bury the dead, and keep the survivors fed, clothed, sheltered and free of disease.

The cool, confident, intuitive leadership Bush exhibited in his first term, particularly in the months immediately following Sept. 11, 2001, has vanished. In its place is a diffident detachment unsuitable for the leader of a nation facing war, natural disaster and economic uncertainty."


Newt Gingrich, Chuck Hagel and other voices which have favored his policies a majority of the time have also expressed their criticisms publicly.

*****

Finally, I just have to say the pictures alone should explain the situation better than anything any press conference ever does. When you look at all those anguished, grief-stricken faces and then next to it you see a picture of Bush strumming a guitar in California, one of Condi just outside a Broadway production in New York City, one of Cheney in Maryland preparing to buy a new house, or one of Rumsfeld hanging loose with Dave Winfield and Padres President John Moores in San Diego, you should immediately ask yourself, "What's wrong with ths picture?"

I myself wrote this poem earlier criticizing the administration and the government to their sluggish response titled "Screaming Without Lungs", and I don't take back anything I expressed in that. I placed pictures into that poem that weren't merely designed to attack Bush, but to get readers to asking that question, "What's wrong with this picture?"

*****

In closing statements, I find it quite understandable why Bush is a major face in the blame game right now, and, yes, you are correct that there are others indeed at fault here. The rest of the administration in general, Michael Brown, FETA in general, parts of the Department of Homeland Security, Blanco (a Democrat indeed, to show that my attitudes cross beyond party lines) and certainly some state and local officials who understood the dynamics and warning signs so long and just didn't take the magnitude of the threat seriously.

But I absolutely defend my belief that Bush is one most worthy of blame here in being a leader that showed no true leadership, and it certainly doesn't help either that another Bush (Barbara Bush) had to come out and say today that recolation is working very well for the poor, which that just only makes her son's image look even more controversial and only further drives that nail in going around that there is a racial/poverty issue here too as Kanye west insisted, which I don't quite agree with.

That $40 billion he offered today for the relief effort is certainly a start, but he has quite a way to go to prove himself that he is working for the people and he is a leader, and that means really looking at the whole of the picture as he didn't do much of last week.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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10 posted 2005-09-07 12:18 PM


Sorry Ali but I can't agree with you on the pass, however small, for Nagin. If one want to run for mayor of a major city then surely some competence should be required. If he did not have it and was just a "figurehead" the he (or those responsible for his election) certainly should have had sense and rationality enough to ensure that there was someone behind the scenes to handle the job.

Other than that, you are right on.

P.S. Oh, BTW, Mike, I think you can safely left adjust your text without any danger of being suspected of "political left leanings."



Balladeer
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11 posted 2005-09-07 12:32 PM


Ah, Noah...

If Bush had responded immediately, the National Guard would have been there two to two-and-a-half days earlier than they were too. Being the commander-in-chief, you blow the whistle and they'll do just as they're told. He wasn't there to blow the whistle until much of the worst was already happening.

Did you miss this, Noah?


Shortly before midnight Friday, the Bush administration sent her a proposed legal memorandum asking her to request a federal takeover of the evacuation of New Orleans, a source within the state’s emergency operations center said Saturday.

The administration sought unified control over all local police and state National Guard units reporting to the governor. Louisiana officials rejected the request after talks throughout the night, concerned that such a move would be comparable to a federal declaration of martial law. Some officials in the state suspected a political motive behind the request. "Quite frankly, if they’d been able to pull off taking it away from the locals, they then could have blamed everything on the locals," said the source, who does not have the authority to speak publicly.

Louisiana did not reach out to a multi-state mutual aid compact for assistance until Wednesday, three state and federal officials said.


Bush had nothing to so with the National Guard not responding. The National Guard of Louisiana is under direct command of the governor. If you want to know why they weren't there...ask her!

Unfortunately, you will make sure every finger of yours points in Bush's direction, regardless. Well, that's your right....continue your good fight.


Thanks, Pete...I wuz worried!

Ringo
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12 posted 2005-09-07 12:39 PM


Another thing people are neglecting to realize (and this from a friend who is feet on the beat in New Orleans disaster services).. FEMA refused to allow anyone in the Greater New Orleans area due to it being unsafe. WHen a city is 15 feet under water n teh ABOVE sea level areas, that the water is rising at a rate measured in feet per hour, one does not send the troops running to the sound of the gunfire, as it were (or in this case, literally). By sending human resources into an area which has not been deemed safe, you end up creating.. what was that phrase???... More casualties.  A rescuer's first responsibility is to themselves. There is no other answer to that. If FEMA had cleared the way for rescuers from the Red Cross, the Salvation Army, the National Guard, or the "Serve and Protect" forces to run into the area, there would have been rescuer casualties... then the media, and the President Bush bashers, and the racial inequality "experts" would have wanted the head of everyone from the president of the city council to the President of the United States. I will tell you, however, that time it took to be fully functional once given the clearance for the Red Cross and the Salvation Army was counted in hours.
This, my dear friends, is a no-win situation for EVERYONE. The inmates were let out of the prison because the place was flooding too fast for them to be "properly" evacuated...and they headed right for the best place for them to "get lost" in the crowd... now those same prisoners are shooting at the police helicopters sent to rescue them and others... The Army Corps of Engineers and FEMA stated that the place wasn't safe for a full-scale rescue operation, the areas where the poor folks lived (yes, the majority were black) are in the more in-accesable areas, and the more flooded areas, which means that they have to be rescued by helicopter... the same ones being shot at... people are being shot in Louisiana for NOT being black, and most of the rescuers are white... UH... am I the only one who doesn't see something wrong with not going balls to the wall into a situation where the people you were rescuing were going to shoot you, or where the chance of you dying instead is unusually high?
Another point of contention for me... I was watching one of the all-news channels, and they were doing a story on how there was a missing child, and while they were doing the story, the child was found and reunited with her father... who just happened to be a non-black newsman. Did ANYONE scream about the fact that there were literally hundreds of people still missing, a number of the children, and the ONLY one that was being profiled was the daughter of an influential member of the community???

I have but one simple request of those who are screaming and criticizing the relief efforts without having ALL of the facts:
Would you please spare us the diatribe of the unknowing?
Yes, it is true that mistakes were made all the way around... Yes, it is true that there are people still waiting to be rescued... yes, it is true that this is going to be nit-picked by the "experts" in the media, and those who sit safe in their towers for years to come, and yes, it is true that this is going to be an electral issue in a couple of years. The fact of the matter is, everyone is blaming the President for mistakes done by people he had no knowledge of, and whom he had no effort in choosing (the governor and the leaders of NO). It is true that President Bush chose a personal friend to head up FEMA, just as President F. Roosevelt chose a Wall Street cronie to head the OSS (pre-runner to the CIA) even though he had NO intelligence background (He was a stock broker, or some such). They ALL do it. President Nixon hired someone who had never served in the military to win the Vietnam War... go figure.
the piont to my tirade (and yes, I have one...which is slightly unusual) is that everyone who chooses to point fingers and send out the blame, and scream about irresponsibility needs to step back, take another sip of their beer, and put themselves in charge of FEMA (or the city of New Orleans, or Homeland Security, or whatever) in their own mind, then given themselves the worst natural disaster in the history of the United States. Once they have that picture in their mind, they should tell everyone what they would do if: their rescuers were being shot at, the rescue zone was unsafe to enter, the main evacuation shelter had to be evacuated because it was unstable, a large portion of the criminal population was back on the streets and was causiing trouble, the situation was becoming more unstable as the minutes pass, and EVERY media outlet in the known world was on your their back, and second-guessing their every move while screaming for action and blood because it wasn't to their liking. The ONLY proper answer is, "Well, gee... I don't know. I have never been in that position and am not there now."
Now that you have realized that... go ahead and complain that they are just like you.

When all is said
All is done
Still I live
And carry on-
Quiet Riot

Mistletoe Angel
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13 posted 2005-09-07 12:43 PM


And you hit the nail on the head there, Michael, in why I listed Blanco as one of the characters at fault here.

A commander-in-chief still isn't excused from the duty of mobilizing these military and humanitarian efforts, and the fact it took until Friday for him to request this federal takeover only further illustrates the reality of his sluggish response in getting the federal government prepared to assist in these efforts.

I'm certain that Blanco will be a focus in this investigation. I just find it wrong how this is not an independent investigation like the 9/11 Commission.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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14 posted 2005-09-07 12:47 PM


A magnificent response, Ringo....thank you.
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15 posted 2005-09-07 12:48 PM


Thank you for beinging up the issue of FEMA again, Bradly, and I certainly have not let my eye off them, as you could clearly see in the original "Katrina" thread where I directly gave a slew of links that expose the numerous humanitarian offers FEMA rejected, from a Navy ship with a hospital wing holding 600 beds to back-up generators.

I do believe Bush must step up to demand some reformation of the Federal Emergency Management Agency and I certainly suggest firing Michael Brown for his complete incompetence, and that is exactly what I meant earlier when I was referring to Bush must prove himself an able leader again by looking at the big picture; focusing on the roles as well.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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16 posted 2005-09-07 01:11 AM


I stand by my original comments.
And Michael, I sure was hoping it was a typo, that you wanted to discuss finger painting, not pointing
I am far more adept at painting than pointing, but when I point my finger? it's filled with reality paint, not imaginery colors.
As for firing the FEMA man? He is just an employee doing what he was told to do. But do you remember Nuremburg trials????

Brad
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17 posted 2005-09-07 08:30 AM


quote:
Politician after politician ?Republican and Democrat alike ?has paraded before us, unwilling or unable to shut off the "I-Me" switch in their heads, condescendingly telling us about how moved they were or how devastated they were ?congenitally incapable of telling the difference between the destruction of a city and the opening of a supermarket.

--Keith Oberman again

That's pretty much how it looked to me.

The BBC today showed a kind of timeline montage, pieced together from different American stations. The phrase, "NO dodged a bullet" kept ringing through my ears. When the reporters realized they were wrong, when the people watching knew that was wrong, it never seemed to occur to those in charge, democrat and republican alike, to change the endless thanking of each other, to stop saying everything will be okay, help is on its way.

Ringo, you're right, I don't know how I would have acted as a trooper (Fema, police, military or otherwise) I don't know how I would have acted if my family and I had been stranded in NO).

But I'm pretty sure that I would have acted very differently than those guys I saw on television thanking each other.

LeeJ
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18 posted 2005-09-07 11:23 AM


Hi Mike, I will admit, I don't like Bush, he and Kerry both scared me...but what scares me more, is the people he puts in charge, not to mention those who have resigned governmental positions.  

Mike, please if you will, allow me to explain.  I hate the fact that the US has only two strong parties, it has not only divided this country...but...has made people extreme left wing, or right wing...meaning, that depending on the party your registered as, regardless of right or wrong or corrupt, b/c that is your party, your vote, you will obviously defend bad behavior...b/c saying this person made a mistake, would mean, you made a mistake, would be an admit ion that your might have been wrong...and due to that human concept...that stubbornness, that fear of being wrong, has allowed political powers to excel.

Mike, I'm registered independent...cuz I tried both parties...and both parties are corrupt in once way or another, no matter how you cut it...some of these guys in politics are not in it for what they can give, but what they can get, and don't give a hoot about their jobs...as long as they receive their pay checks.  

This botch up with Katrina was a perfect example of how prepared this country and its leaders are...

This was a miscommunication on the part of all involved...and in my way of thinking....Bush cut his 28 day vacation short, the day after Katrina had left.  

Now to me, the governor and mayor surely made mistakes, but...Bush should have been on the phone immediately discussing evacuation plans with these people, before he left for vacation, or during?

And by the way, how the heck many vacations does this President have to take?  

My point in the thread I created was to point out...that if Bush has all those Plans in Place that he so loosely uses...then he would have taken the initiative to call both the governor, mayor, while people were in fact evacuating and talked about what might happen.  

God forbid if the super dome would have collapsed, which was a constant on my mind, did anyone else worry about the devastation and the lives lost if that would have happened?

This was a blatant miscommunication problem, along with a lamed attitude in job performance and responsibility, not to mention, the ability to take charge and make decision without having to be handfed.  

How the heck can the head of FEMA perform strategic evacuation plans, when in fact the only experience he's had was as an Arabian Horse Show Judge?  I mean, at least choose a fireman, or police officer, or retired military officer for this very vital position?

And I mean no insult to any of these men, just simply saying, they are not men that fit into the hats of that requires expertise in those areas.

And yes, Deer, I'm very angry, and took those deaths very personal...so perhaps I pointed fingers without thinking things thru...but it also makes me very angry when the NWAACP gets up and starts screaming racism?????  I'm so sick and tired of them excusing bad behavior as well...and I have many Friends who are African American who also say, Polize Jessie, give it a rest and stop rewarding BAD BEHAVIOR.

This situation, to me would have happened regardless of whom was living in this area, be it rich, poor, black, white, or in-between. It was a case of not being prepared...not paying attention...and a perfect example of what is happening in this country today...way to many people are in positions of leadership, who should not be there, b/c they cannot perform they're jobs and need someone else to tell them what to do, even if that means hiring consultants to do so...who only care about the paycheck and not the entire success of the whole....not just themselves.  

Deer, I'm sorry and apologize if I sounded like an unleashed wolf on a human being...but I won't apologize for my opinions of this country today...and/or what we the people have allowed to happen, cuz we're more concerned about being right then the result and ripple effect...

In the end, they will pick a scope goat, which will likely be Michael Brown, he'll loose his job and be replaced with some other local yokels who don’t know a darn thing about evacuation, and people will forget.

Just like, they're going to rebuild these entire cities with frame houses again...above ground wiring...and hope that in our lifetime we don't have to deal with another hurricane or deal with rebuilding and so, let the next generation worry about it. instead of putting good money into better buildings and safer utility lines...please read my Katrina thread...my last comment...

anyway, we all have good Points and bad points but...my greatest concern is hiring men who can do the job and immediately respond, making rational decisions...when it comes to the safety of our nations people.  

To me, this was a dry run of what would happen if we had another terrorist attack.  Mike, we are not ready and we are no safer then we were before 9/11.

How can we be with all these people in this country unaccounted for, who have training camps right here, cells right here...and nobody but nobody cares????

But hey, we have homeland security????  Which has been called a joke by their own members....

See, Mike, money was allocated for Homeland Security, but there were no specifics, so each politician who was handed this money, spent that money anyway they could...and that's a fact jack.  Much money for Homeland Security is gone...

Mike, things have desperately changed since you and I were in school, and today, the entire culture relies on instant gratification...there is no longer concern for tomorrow, it's the concept, heck, why not live for today, cuz tomorrow another generation can worry about the problem.  You wouldn't believe the corporate world today, and the stuff that goes on...and how backs are scratched and pacified.  

I don't care if these guys have Harvard Degrees; they are not suitable for their positions...

Deer, The H. Norman Schwarzkopf’s of the world are gone...those military men who could make a decision without fear of that decision being unpopular...they do not react on impulse but rather with strategic thoroughness with saving lives being first and foremost and least of all, they do not worry about if they're actions are going to gain them votes or not.

Sorry to say, again and again, if our government is corrupt, so to will be it's people, and that's where we've come to...President Bush has the nerve to threaten anyone who price gouges, and yet, his oil company raised they're prices along with everyone else?  Bad Behavior is now days acceptable, and the heck with job description, responsibilities to the people, and this country...decision is made today, solely by...what's in it for me....and that's how people get killed or die.

I'm sorry, hope you don't hate me for my opinion...these are things I would have said about our present administration anyway...
and as far as Clinton, I didn't like the guy either, but...he was literally a genius, and when he left office, we were not in debt.

Certainly not like now, and I feel very bad for the next administration when Bush walks out, not to mention, it literally scars me to think, who else is going to be voted in, simply b/c they claim to be against abortion...or against stem cell research....

yanno, those things will go on regardless of whose in there, has since the beginning of time...

anyway...Deer...respectively and honestly
Hope you understand & find it in your heart to still somewhat like me, if you can  , but Yes, I'm finger pointing
cuz I'm damn mad....

Alicat
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19 posted 2005-09-07 11:46 AM


LeeJ, a note about most Presidential 'vacations'.  More often than not, they are working vacations and are have been used by innumerable Administrations to get away from D.C.; have informal and formal meetings with state and federal elected officials and foreign dignitaries; draft speeches, programs, legislation, objectives, and sundry; consult with advisors in a more relaxed setting; and gain some downtime from high stress situations.  Some have done more play than work, granted.  With President Bush, it seems he's almost always working, whether it's home/property maintenance, meeting folks, or Administrative tasks.  It'd be like you or me getting a month's vacation, and spending the entire month volunteering at soup kitchens, Habitat for Humanity, and the Boys and Girls Club, all while working on our own properties.

Most professions out there begin and end in the office/workplace.  I might sell books at work, but don't sell books at home.  Once I come home, I'm no longer a book seller, but will be once again when I go back to work.  The rest of the professions, even while sleeping at night, you're still on the job.  Emergency personnel, enforcement personnel, elected officials.  That includes the President.  He's the President in his suits, he's the President in his jeans and workshirt, he's the President in his pajamas.  As were all the prior Presidents and as will be the future Presidents.

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20 posted 2005-09-07 12:46 PM


Lee, you are absolutely right in your rant in how you addressed why you are an independent, as I am one too and though there are Democrats that do have the right idea who I believe are making an effort to embrace the other 57 million plus who voted for change, I refuse to call myself a Democrat now because they just won't unite together as a real opposition party and rather porray themselves as a Lite version of the ruling party, where we also have a majority of the candidates said to run for President in 2008 those who support the war in Iraq and everything, including Clinton and Biden, and won't even publicly address thw questions they have on how the policy is being carried out, etc.

I am very much frustrated by the political climate in general, and absolutely agree it is just heartbreaking that in America of all places, we're stuck with this two-party system, stuck with one extreme or the other, and how corporate pressure and apathy is keeping us from stepping up together and finding a place for third candidates, fusion voting ballots, etc.

Who knows if Kerry were elected how similarly or differently the whole response would have been. Only God knows that. I never felt strongly in Kerry to begin with and only voted for him because at least he had some goal in getting our young men and women out of Iraq, and that he had always struck me as an intelligent, disciplined thinker who would think matters out before acting on them. But I certainly wouldn't say I was proud to vote for him as he never struck me as that leader that would represent everyone.

Y'all have watched me call Bush a number of things within the past two and a half years since I first lost respect for him in declaring war on Iraq; a thief, a liar, a divider, a criminal, and now to the list I add a word that I never thought I'd add understanding how stubborn and determined he has always stuck by his agenda; after his weak response to Katrina and vacation after vacation, he's seemingly non-commited to his oath in the fullest sense.

It doesn't always have to be this way, this attitude that who you elect is "What you see is what you get." It just isn't a vast majority of the time. Thinking that way only leaves you feeling most discouraged and apathetic when you see otherwise just happening in contradiction to what they swore an oath for. And I hope we can make an effort to strengthen this democracy that America deserves ever too much and is overdue for sinew.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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21 posted 2005-09-07 12:58 PM


LeeJ- A question... what proof do you have that the propers agencies in the government WEREN'T "on the phone" with the people in New Orleans and in Mississippi?? In another part of this thread, proof ws offered that the governmental gencies involved WERE in contact with the governmental authorities in NO and were politely, or not so politely, told to "shove".
As for President Bush not being on the phone:
1) What proof do you have that he wasn't
2) Why would the President- who has enough on his plate- taked the time to PERSONALLY call these people when he has people that he has hired and that were approved by Congress, BTW (yet they get no blame), that take care of that for him. That is akin to a franchise being in the line of a wild fire and the company president calling the franchise owner personally to make sure the employees get out. In both of these cases, there are other people who you put your trust and faith in, and who you depend on to do their jobs. In this case, while I do think that perhaps putting a few more resources in place might have been a good thing before the storm hit, as has been pointed out earlier, it wouldn't have made much good, because:
1) The local administration wasn't listening
2) The area wasa not safe enough to conduct full out rescue missions the day after the hurricane hit.

To put an end to this... why is everyone blaming THIS particular President for all of the disaster when they City Leadership of New Orleans has known for MANY, MANY, MANY years that those levees were unstable, and that they might collapse in a hevy storm... yet did nothing at all to fix them, and to attempt to prevent it from happening in thbe first place? Is it President Bush's fault that the city leaders and the governor were failing their people BEFORE he became Goernor of Texas?

When all is said
All is done
Still I live
And carry on-
Quiet Riot

Mistletoe Angel
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22 posted 2005-09-07 12:59 PM


http://www.sptimes.com/2005/08/30/State/For_forecasting_chief.shtml

This above article, published last Tuesday in the St. Petersburg Times, reveals that the National Hurricane Center director Max Mayfield called Bush as early as Sunday, August 28th in warning him about the serious concerns of Katrina, as well as Nagin and the governors of Louisiana and Mississippi:

"This is the life of a hurricane forecaster: being reviled one moment and lauded the next.

Mayfield understands this. Which is why he won't stop hounding people, giving warnings, making calls when a storm approaches.

On Saturday night, Mayfield was so worried about Hurricane Katrina that he called the governors of Louisiana and Mississippi and the mayor of New Orleans. On Sunday, he even talked about the force of Katrina during a video conference call to President Bush at his ranch in Crawford, Texas.

"I just wanted to be able to go to sleep that night knowing that I did all I could do," Mayfield said."


*******

So the bottom line is, Bush, Blanco and Barbour all knew and were warned well that Katrina was no storm to underestimate and indeed was something to take seriously and respond to.

So while they all keep going around and deny their ignorance of the disaster, while they all keep saying "How could we have known the severity of this hurricane?", they were briefed, they knew what was coming, yet Bush stays on vacation anyway while eating cake with McCain and playing guitar, and meanwhile Blanco and Barbour are doing God knows what during the crisis.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

LeeJ
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23 posted 2005-09-07 01:12 PM


Hey Ringo...your right, I have no proof, but, rather, proof that distress was not addressed by any one of them properly...
otherwise, it certainly wouldn't have taken them 4 days to get off their butts and get in there...I truely believe if they had, lives could have been spared...they should have gotten in there directly after the fact and started air lifting people out of there.  Medical supplies as well as food and water, should have been immediately deployed, did anyone anticipate, that these people were going to be stranded?

Listen, I don't mean to sound like I'm hammering Bush alone, but he is, at the top of the line, and when they were not doing anything for days, he should have been on the phone to the state/FEMA/RED CROSS, organizing...etc. asking questions the first day. Yes?  I mean, isn't it the human thing to do regardless of position?

Again...I'm tired of hearing him (Bush) say, "We have a Plan in Place".  Doesn't anyone ask themselves and our government "WHAT PLAN"  WE WANT TO SEE AN OUTLINE OF THIS PLAN?  Communication is the key to success, No?

Ali
thanks so much for the education...some friends at work just told me the same thing...so thank you...

Respectfully and sincerely
Lee J.


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24 posted 2005-09-07 01:20 PM


No, Bradly, I'm sure that this investigation (which should be an independent investigation) will reveal the most guilty of consciences in the Louisiana and Mississippi state governments who have pushed the states backwards from progress in improving the region's infrastructure, supply systems and defense, and I believe there are guilty faces in there which I jus don't know enough about at this time.

And yes, I absolutely defend my belief that Bush is one worthy of great blame for the tragedy, because whether or not each one voted for him or not, he is OUR president and he works "for the people", he works to protect the people, and it is quite obvious he has taken his responsibility for granted when it comes to this sort of national security.
http://factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=344

Here, at Fact Check, a site which is considered most credible among both those who lean Democrat or Republican for detecting false claims and truths about issues from both ends, they do a great job detailing how Bush cut funding for levee projects, as well as noting the 44% decline since Bush took office on all construction projects in the New Orleans region.

It also details quotations from the New Orleans Times-Picayune since just after 9/11, where they warn that projects are being held back because so much of the federal money is going to counter-terrorism efforts and Iraq, etc.

*****

As I've repeatedly stated, I believe Katrina couldn't have been prevented, it hitting New Orleans was inevitable, as well as much of the damage that it generated. Indeed had things been different the past five years and the Army Corps of Engineers got all the money they requested, who knows if it would have kept the levees from breaking in this tragedy like they did, we don't know that.

But what is clear is that Bush did cut funding to construction efforts, he was warned about the seriousness of Katrina before it even hit the coast, and he reacted weakly to the situation, which I believe knowing that he is deserving of partial/great deal of blame.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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25 posted 2005-09-07 01:31 PM


Lee, you're SO right about the ongoing frustration in that the government keeps repeatedly saying "We have a plan in place!", "We have a plan in place!", "We have a plan in place!".

Frankly, it reminds me eeriely of last election season, when Kerry, who I did vote for because he struck me as much more responsible-sounding than Bush and had a goal a least to get our troops out of Iraq, kept saying "I have a plan!", "I have a plan!", "I have a plan!", and how people from all thinktanks were making fun of him/criticizing him for that, in that because Kerry always speaks in such a grandiose, intellectual show-off sort of way, never understood what the plan was simply, thus many couldn't trust him and didn't know what he would offer the American people.

THIS is exactly what's happening right now. This administration is acting very much like Kerry during the debates and campaign tours last year. They keep insisting they "have a plan", yet all they do is seem to stand in front of microphones at press conferences with dry-cleaned suits and Verizon phones in their pockets, making long lists of excuses and they spend more time making excuses that little of "the plan" is ever being mentioned and thus so many are being left stranded in abandonment and confusion out of this.

Whatever that "plan" is, they must understand that it truly is a war zone down there on the gulf, and in grave situations like this, you've got to do more than just say you have a plan. You must ACT the plan, you must BE the plan, you must think and learn on your feet rather than polish the "plan" into second, third, seventeenth drafts.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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26 posted 2005-09-07 01:57 PM


http://www.thinkprogress.org/katrina-timeline

Here's a timeline of the events surrounding Katrina, the government, Bush, Nagin, etc. which I find much more complete then the CNN version. (admittedly this comes from a distinguished left-wing site that has always been most critical of this administration, but because they cite their sources throughout the timeline accordingly, I found it worthy of sharing, and aside from the other opinions the site professes which some of you certainly will not agree with, just take a look at the timeline aside.)

Obviously they haven't updated October 4-early today yet, but I believe they've done a great job putting the sequences of events together in an organized fashion.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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27 posted 2005-09-07 07:18 PM


Saturday, August 27

5AM — KATRINA UPGRADED TO CATEGORY 3 HURRICANE [CNN]

GOV. BLANCO ASKS BUSH TO DECLARE FEDERAL STATE OF EMERGENCY IN LOUISIANA: “I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster.”
-------------------------------------------

Washington Post Staff Writers
Sunday, September 4, 2005; Page A01

Behind the scenes, a power struggle emerged, as federal officials tried to wrest authority from Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco (D). Shortly before midnight Friday, the Bush administration sent her a proposed legal memorandum asking her to request a federal takeover of the evacuation of New Orleans, a source within the state’s emergency operations center said Saturday.

The administration sought unified control over all local police and state National Guard units reporting to the governor. Louisiana officials rejected the request after talks throughout the night, concerned that such a move would be comparable to a federal declaration of martial law.
-----------------------------------------

Ok, there you have it, Noah...your distinguished leftist article and the Washington Post....I dare say that much of the leftist article will be in conflict with other news agencies.....wonder why.

yet Bush stays on vacation anyway while eating cake with McCain and playing guitar

That says plenty about your views, Noah.


LeeJ...there is NOTHING you can say that would make me respect you any less. I admire you for speaking up for what you believe in. I will side with Ringo, however, in pointing out you may be accusing Bush of not doing things you don't really know if he did or not. It would add a lot more validity to your argument if you could back the accusations with facts...or anyone's argument, for that matter. Innuendos and accusations may make for interesting reading material But it would be good to have the facts to back them up. There are some points we will never have the facts for, in which case we rely on logical suppositions. Unfortunately, if we are extremely biased our "logical" suppositions always seem to barbeque whoever our biases are against. To say something like "He should have..." without even knowing if he did does not add creditiblilty to your views.

You want answers...I want answers...everybody wants answers. Let's try to get them by speaking of the facts and the things we know for sure and we will have a better chance of getting at the truth. Otherwise we are just mud-slingers, refusing to miss any opportunity to slam. I thank you for your kind response and I will always respect your views and consider you a "very cool" lady.

Alicat
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28 posted 2005-09-07 07:36 PM


Noah, Noah, Noah....why on earth couldn't the New Orleans Levee Projects, originally started and funded in 1965 after Hurrican Betsy by Congress, have been finished 10 years later, when they were supposed to be finished?  I understand how government projects almost always come in late and way over budget, with the bridge over Lake Pontcherain being one of the few exemptions.  10 years would've been great.  8 years would've been outstanding.  15 years would be acceptable.  40 years and still not finished?

Some thing to keep in mind about the levees.  The ones not finished, part of the remainding 20%, are managed by private contractors with a very healthy budget (state), not by the Army Corps of Engineers (federal).  Want to know what they spent their budget on?  Casinos.  Not levees.  Casinos.  Maybe they thought the investment would pay off in spades, allowing them to finish the project while still lining their pockets even more deeply.

40 FREAKIN YEARS!  2/5 of a century.  That, in and of itself is inexcuseable.  They've been at this one year more than my parents have been married!  We hear so much about President Bush, FEMA, Governor Blanco, Mayor Nevin.  Nothing about Congress which is the Branch which does project funding, nor anything about those private contractors.  Most don't even know about them.  They know about ACE, they've heard about ACE.  Army Corps of Engineers.  Can anyone who's not a N'arlins native name any private levee contractor?  How about a native of Louisiana?  Native of New Orleans?  Theirs are the levees that failed, not the ones created and maintained by ACE.  Levee breach.  Suckers sank a few feet over the prior decades.  Did the ACE ones?  Funny that...they didn't.

Been thinking about other construction projects that ran way over time and billions of dollars over budget and actually could think of a couple.  Sad thing is that none of those projects were for public safety.  Public buildings, public causeways, public parks, public monuments.  Guess what?  None of them actually provide any real protection.  Ooooooh....LEVEES.  Now they provide protection.  And still ain't finished after 40 YEARS!

I know there are many who would love nothing more than to fault President Bush (b. 1946) for the failed levee system.  Never mind the FACT that he was a year out of highschool at age 19 when the federal levee system was started (1965).

Brad
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29 posted 2005-09-07 08:28 PM


I'm confused.

Bush did call Bianco. She said so in the same press conference where she declared a State of Emergency.

Nagin has also stated that he was in contact with everybody -- he said so on that notorious radio interview.

Mike,

I don't get those two paragraphs. The first one deals with the weekend before Katrina, the second deals with the Friday after Katrina.

I think. Any clarification would be helpful.

At the very least, this power struggle shows the ineptitude of both sides.


Ringo
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30 posted 2005-09-07 08:54 PM


OK, Naoh... The Executive Branch of the Government cut Levee spending by 44%... now comes my question:

Was it  44% cut in what was ALREADY being spent or was it a 44% cut in the proposed increase in spending? In case I didn't ask that clearly enough (as I am wont to do) let me give an example:

The federal budget calls for an increase in educational spending of $500 million. The President's new budget drops that increase to $250 million... now the Democrats (Who, as has been noted in an earlier response, APPROVED the budget) begin to scream into any microphone that they can find that the mean old Republicans have cut educational spending by 50%... yet, somehow, the Dept of Ed got an increase in spending.

So, I ask again:
Was the cut in spending a lowered increase, or a cut in the money that was currently being spent?

Ok, so I lied... what happened to the money from the past 40 years???? I realize that this has been asked before, yet I would still be very interested in knowing how people could blame a President for the failures that occurred more than 2/3 of his own lifetime ago. (While we are at it... maybe we can blame him for decreased trade to South East Asia due to the communist take over.) How can we blame the President for not keeping abreast of the disaster when the very people in charge have stated they were talking to him? How can we blame the President for not sending in the troops fast enough when it was UNSAFE for them to go in? How can you blame the President for the Red Cross not reacting fast enought when the Red Cross, as standard procedure, begins setting up the disaster relief team in another state before the event happens (in a case of a hurricane)?
I don't know, maybe my loyalty to the Office, and my personal support of the man is letting my emotions get in the way of the facts... oh, wait... the facts actually support him this time...

When all is said
All is done
Still I live
And carry on-
Quiet Riot

Balladeer
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31 posted 2005-09-07 09:20 PM


Yes, Brad, I understand your confusion. My thoughts are why would Blanco ask Bush to declare a federal state of emergency before the hurricane, citing that response was beyond the capabilities of the state and then refuse the federal request to handle the evacuation and law enforcement afterwards? Something sounds strange there to me. There are so many different timelines here and I am confused, too.

Ineptitude on both sides? We have no disagreement there.....

How can we blame the President for not keeping abreast of the disaster when the very people in charge have stated they were talking to him?

Noah, that is one great question for you. You claim Bush was out of touch with the situation and you have the state officials claiming to be in contact with him all the way....are they lying or is it possible Bush put away his cake long enough to put down the guitar and pick up the phone to talk to someone??

Alicat
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32 posted 2005-09-07 09:33 PM


Ringo, the issue with the Red Cross being denied entry immediately after Katrina made landfall was not a federal decision, but a state decision.  Yes, that's right.  The state Louisiana Department of Homeland Security.  Let me run that by you again.  STATE.  Since so many think all Departments of Homeland Security are the same ones Chertof holds Federally, no wonder the many state Departments of Homeland Security fade into the woodwork.  Thankfully, a prime spokesperson for the American Red Cross clarified and made sure to state that it was a State DHS official who denied entry, not a Federal DHS official.  And that there is a big distinction when you get down to brass tacks: State vs Federal.
ice
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33 posted 2005-09-07 09:41 PM


­Friend Balladeer

The reports in the Washington Post, and from CNN were not disproved in any media, to my knowledge...Perhaps you have information about why these statements are false...If so, please post it here...

Also:
From all reports in the different medias that I have studied, it seems that Noah is correct in stating...
" yet Bush stays on vacation anyway while eating cake with McCain and playing guitar"

Are you saying that this is false? or do you just not like the tone?

I remember Mr. Bush rushing home from a different vacation not long ago, (theTerry Shivo incident)...It was not an emergency one millionth the size of the Katrina disaster, in my mind.

You said to LeeJ

"I will side with Ringo, however, in pointing out you may be accusing Bush of not doing things you don't really know if he did or not. It would add a lot more validity to your argument if you could back the accusations with facts...or anyone's argument, for that matter."

I agree with you on this one....:-) Remembering that this is the "alley", a place for people to scream out their frustrations...

There are plenty enough substantiated facts around to reveal what Mr. Bush stands for...on this matter and many others...And it is not that I don't like him in general that I say this, which I don't.  I have studied this man, and I don't like what he has done historically, or in the present...what he stands for, and how he goes about getting what he wants.  I don't like the company he keeps, or their agenda, for which he is the mouthpiece.

Here I will state that Mr. Bush had an opportunity to prepare ahead of time for disaster relief, that he did not seize. He could have gotten things in motion by an order(while he was arguing about declaring Martial law with the governor) to his minister (the FEMA head) to get rolling. Perhaps it is the fault of his incompetent appointee, Mr. Brown, who probably also did not know that this law existed, or that he could have used it.

Mr. Brown has had no experience with FEMA, or any other organization that deals with catastrophes. That alone in my mind makes him a very poor choice for the position in the first place, and probably the reason that he did not know the law existed. Apparently neither Mr. Brown, nor  Mr. Bush Knew about this act (law)
If they did, they broke it, and that makes their choice even worse.

The Stafford Act,
provides FEMA officials with specific powers, and (in my mind) states that it can assess  the catastrophic area, assess what assistance the state in crisis needs, start mobilizing that relief, before, and, or while it presents its recommendations to the governor. I suppose that Bush 2 Did not learn from Bush 1's mistake in not enacting this law during Hurricane Andrew in 1992. Say what you like about Clinton, but one thing he did do was hire a competent person to head FEMA. It was important  for him to appoint a person of experience with emergencies and catastrophe...  FEMA was a cabinet level part of the government during his administration, very strong, and well funded.

I believe that if Mr.Bush had followed this rule (law) that the news media would have spread it all over the front page, at least the front page of Fox news, so I am assuming that he did not...
If information exists to counteract my assumption...please show it here.

Here is how part of the law reads, the part that pertains to this thread...
*
Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, as amended by Public Law 106-390, October 30, 2000  

§ 5144. EMERGENCY SUPPORT TEAMS {Sec. 303}

"The President shall form emergency support teams of Federal personnel to be deployed in an area affected by a major disaster or emergency. Such emergency support teams shall assist the Federal coordinating officer in carrying out his responsibilities pursuant to this Act. Upon request of the President, the head of any Federal agency is directed to detail to temporary duty with the emergency support teams on either a reimbursable or nonreimbursable basis, as is determined necessary by the President, such personnel within the administrative jurisdiction of the head of the Federal agency as the President may need or believe to be useful for carrying out the functions of the emergency support teams."

I am not a lawyer, but by reading this, feel that if this was enacted by the president, from his Texas ranch, Whitehouse or anywhere, it would have greatly enhanced my respect for his emergency handling capabilities...

I have said enough for now...

---------------ice
      ><>
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Balladeer
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34 posted 2005-09-07 10:12 PM


From all reports in the different medias that I have studied, it seems that Noah is correct in stating...
" yet Bush stays on vacation anyway while eating cake with McCain and playing guitar"

Are you saying that this is false? or do you just not like the tone?


Fine, ice. I cannot definitely say that Bush did not eat cake, nor can I say he did not play the guitar. Noah uses these comments in the same vein as saying "Nero fiddled while Rome burned.", Bush as a lazy good-ole boy enjoying his vacation, playing his music and  spooning down his ice cream, uninterested in a small thing like the greatest natural disaster to ever hit the United States, destroying a major city and a large portion of the entire gulf coast, causing loss if life in the thousands, at least.

Do I find that offensive, not to mention inaccurate? Bet your sweet bippy I do....

ice
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35 posted 2005-09-07 10:31 PM


­Ali- you said-
­­ "Ringo, the issue with the Red Cross being denied entry immediately after Katrina made landfall was not a federal decision, but a state decision.  Yes, that's right.  The state Louisiana Department of Homeland Security."

I am trying to find something to substantiate your claim, Ali..but can only find  this article in a Pittsburgh paper, on the issue. I keep getting mixed up in chain of command matters...Does this mean that the governor, being in charge of the national guard, is responsible for their actions...and so to speak is responsible for keeping the red cross out?
Note that is does not state if the "Homeland Security Department" is state or federal ?
But it does state that FEMA would not allow them to go in...That is most certainly federal, and is Bush's responsibility..but you did say that the red cross was

" denied entry immediately after Katrina made landfall"
That was Monday, and this was in Saturdays paper, so you point of reference was earlier..
Please post where your info came from, I would like to read the transcript...


Saturday, September 03, 2005
By Ann Rodgers, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

"As the National Guard delivered food to the New Orleans convention center yesterday, American Red Cross officials said that federal emergency management authorities would not allow them to do the same.

Other relief agencies say the area is so damaged and dangerous that they doubted they could conduct mass feeding there now.

"The Homeland Security Department" has requested and continues to request that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans," said Renita Hosler, spokeswoman for the Red Cross."


­

Local Rebel
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36 posted 2005-09-07 10:47 PM


Well, I saw the video of him playing guitar.

But exactly what does that mean?  Other than that he was playing guitar?

I think that where arguments tend to run off the rails is when they try to make broad generalizations like -- this was an elitist rich president who didn't care about black people.

I can't, under any circumstances, think that anybody in local, state, or federal executive positions didn't care about people dying in New Orleans.

What I find easy to believe, under all circumstances, is that the ball was dropped on the local, state, and federal level and the CYA started immediately at the local, state, and federal level.

I can't understand anybody defending any of these characters.  But, the only ones who work for ME, are Bush, Cheney, Chertoff, Brownie, Rummie -- and that's where I have to focus my stewardship.

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37 posted 2005-09-07 10:55 PM


"As the National Guard delivered food to the New Orleans convention center yesterday, American Red Cross officials said that federal emergency management authorities would not allow them to do the same.

Other relief agencies say the area is so damaged and dangerous that they doubted they could conduct mass feeding there now.

"The Homeland Security Department" has requested and continues to request that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans," said Renita Hosler, spokeswoman for the Red Cross."


Ice, my friend, you have just given us the proof that I have been screaming about as far as the rescue efforts not happening because it is UNSAFE for the teams to go there. The National Guard is designed to go into harms way... civilian members of the Red Cross, Salvation Army, Catholic Social Services, Lute=heran housae, and others are not.
I believe that would be game, set, and match on the issue of rescue efforts not going quickly enough.
Thank you.

When all is said
All is done
Still I live
And carry on-
Quiet Riot

Alicat
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38 posted 2005-09-07 10:58 PM


Here ya go, Ice.

http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_682_4524,00.html#4524

Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea
39 posted 2005-09-07 11:06 PM


Ali, you beat me to it:
http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_682_4524,00.html#4524

quote:
Acess to New Orleans is controlled by the National Guard and local authorities and while we are in constant contact with them, we simply cannot enter New Orleans against their orders.

The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city.



Certainly, safety may have been a factor, but that's not what this is saying.


ice
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40 posted 2005-09-07 11:42 PM


Ali and Brad
Thanks for the link....too tired to read it tonight, will do so tomorrow..

------------ice
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Huan Yi
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41 posted 2005-09-08 01:47 AM



Anyone uncomfortable sending men and women
in harm’s way, (bullets), to force out people who
refuse to leave?  Let’s say there’s a firefight.
How many KIA’s will be too much?

LeeJ
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42 posted 2005-09-08 09:21 AM


Hey Deer, I know your right about backing up my voice with documentation...oh, and thanks so much for the boost of consideration for a sometimes very passionate, over emotional woman...hugs...anyway...as you and many others here, do back up what you say with articles from many highly acclaimed journalists...well, my point is this...I've seen and read the wall street journal make some very false front page accusations & claims, which directly affected me and my job, only later to hide their apologies, deep within on page 13 in very diminutive print...instead of the apology making front page news, after the damage was done...so, as many of you do cut and paste newspaper quotes, respectfully I offer argue, that they are not always accurate, along with accusations, opinions and news casts presented by the media.  We all know, they do cut out what they don’t want you to know or exaggerate, working on the emotions of the public, you know, manipulative stories…to swing people over to their point of view….but…  

Deer, I followed the news of this hurricane from the start of the warnings on the news, and as the hurricane came and went...flipping from CNN to the Weather Channel, to FOX...back and forth all during the first 2 & 3 days...and quite frankly reminding you that...that as the days went by, with still no relief for these people, man, did I take this very personal, screaming over and over, Where IS Our  Government and why aren’t they deploying help?

When I address a situation, in my thoughts, I always think, what would I do and, if I were President (and you all can thank you lucky stars I’m not president )...Upon the first reports of the monster hurricane Katrina hitting the gulf coast, forecasted to hit New Orleans and surrounding areas, I would have immediately phoned the Governor & Mayors setting up conference calls between us and said, "hey guys, this one looks bad!" What are you doing to evacuate"?  "Do you know how many people have no means of transportation as of yet"?  "I don’t care the repercussions we need to evacuate everyone we can, don't you agree, even if this thing doesn’t hit by some grace of God, for now, take any vehicles you can get your hands on and have all residents report to designated areas where buses will transport them out, and if you need more transportation, now’s the time to ask for help from surrounding areas…even if this hurricane by some unseen force of God, does not do the damage we expect, it’s better to be safe then sorry…we can always rebuild, but we can’t bring back lost lives"!  "Lets keep the communication lines opens, report back to me when ever necessary, every hour, if necessary, this must be quick and efficent".  "Presently our mission has to be, to get as many people out of those areas, as possible.  Adding, we have plenty of warning so this can be expedited effectively, don't you think, any ideas or counter ideas?"  

After the fact, while watching the news…my first thought was, OMG, what if that super dome doesn’t hold?  All those people will be crushed?  

Then came the aftermath and for two days, while watching the news, which I’m certain, 80% of the rest of the country was doing, I kept screaming inside, where is help, where is FEMA, where is the Red Cross, where is Bush?  Why isn’t someone taking initiative, taking charge and deploying army equipment in there to get people out...I was shocked and even people at work looked at me like I was invisible and had nothing important to add to the conversation when I asked these same questions?

I mean, how long is it supposed to take to move…not talk about it, but make a call and do whatever necessary?  

It was a take charge situation…and yet, I believe what happened, and this is an assumption…everyone was so afraid of making decision, worried about the repercussions of stepping in and doing something without someone from a higher level, telling them what to do?

I mean, what could the President have been thinking in those 2-3 first and most crucial days…at that point in time, the mayors or the governors, certainly did not have the resources (privy to army & navy equipment, let alone medical supplies, food and water?) to get in there are start a rescue mission immediately.  

What I’ve tried to stress in other forums…leaders need to take a position…make decisions that are not always popular, but are the good for the majority of the people…just like in war…you don’t want a general who is unable to make quick decisions…yanno?  

In this case, and I say this again, everyone who should have been moving promptly without hesitation, was standing around waiting, waiting for what?  

Then, there were reports of New Orleans police, who lost everything, still on the job, with no communication to each other, just simply out there trying to keep doing his job.  

One news man interviewed a police officer…he was in shock, frightened, saying…”I lost my house, everything, but I’m just out here doing what I’m supposed to be doing, trying to help the best I can with no means for communication to anyone, people are looting, breaking into gun stores, liquor stores, this is a recipe for disaster”

That would have been all I needed to hear…immediately I would have deployed the national guards, the army, navy medical ships, amphibians, helicopter rescue teams…setting up mash medical tents….I mean, everyone knew this was a catastrophic event…why does the President have to wait for approval to deploy this rescue, when common sense tells you, everyone down there was under water with no means of communication...and now, asking even more so, What Plan do you have in place if this coutry goes under attack.  I can invision his face now...just like the day he was sitting in elementary school reading a book to the children, and someone came in and whispered in his ear, "We're under attack", God, he just sat there with this dumb grin on his face in a state of shock, not able to move, didn't know what to do, again the man whispered in his ear...and finally our learder got up and was escourted out????

Again, if I were President, without regard for any law, I would have deployed army, navy, coast guard, and issued a state of emergency on T.V. asking everyone is surrounding states to offer whatever they could in the way of shelters and gotten those people out of that stadium.  

Now, a debate may be offered of, oh well, no one could get in there????
We have in our midst resources that can get us in anywhere, anytime, anyhow, so how much different did a few days make, when the news reporters and volunteers got in right away and were helping.  And that I had proof of and saw with my own eyes.

This whole thing in my opinion was botched…which brings another awareness to me….I believe we’ve become a society that is compromising the value of life, from fear of just going in there and getting things done to the best of our ability when it is a life and death situation.

Some of this mentality may be due to law suits and public opinions, not to mention, is there presently in the near future a political agenda, like an election, brother, elections, do get politicians moving then.  

Deer, I know some of you are very brilliant people, with college education...your engineers, song writers, perhaps psychologists, attorneys, with degrees out the gazoo

I cannot express myself with words in writing nearly as astute & intellectually as some of you do, and believe me, sometimes you all leave me awe struck at the blessings you do possess...but also feel, my input sometimes may be foolish, and spoken with emotion, but othertimes, perhaps a tad wise spoken through experience.

nor do I possess the time to research newspaper articles or cut and paste to back up my statements and/or theories.

I’m certainly not always right….but what I do possess is some common sense, and not to be a wise guy, sarcastic or lead you to believe I may be over inflated cuz I don’t believe I am...simply put, I do possess confidence and the ability to know, it doesn’t take an educated monkey to understand the importance of life and to immediately deploy help and get things moving in the blink of an eye.  

I am presently an administrative assistant (secretary) but at one time in my life, I was an office manager for a heavy & highway construction company in Pennsylvania; an office manager in charge of building roads (2 and 4 lanes), up to 100 men, heavy equipment, payroll, state codes, union codes, daily job documentation, testing concrete, finishing concrete, running people to the hospital, calling police, emergency medical teams, etc...and making certain, all materials were on the job and ready to disperse each and every day.  

So I know the valuable asset of time & cost effective planning...and time was certainly of the essence, in the case of this monster, Katrina!  But to no avail, no one moved, everyone simply froze and watched, and watched, while those people down there were screaming, while babies, children and adults were dying, not to mention the rapes!

For 3 days...everyone was afraid to make a decision…to lead, to accomplish saving lives, even if only 10 lives, or 1 life could have been spared, the move to deploy whatever means necessary would have been worth it.  

Lives were lost here people, which is no small matter that can be justifiably excused with smaking someone's hand.  And to me, there is no excuse for anyone in a take charge position as these men were, to abandon the truth or make excuses for.  

If our leaders are not strong, and willing to put his/her life on the line for others, make decision without fear of what the public will think, then all those under him will be the same way as well.  

And so, I state my argument, strictly from what little common sense I own, not to mention, staying abreast with the situation as best I can…

This country has way to many people in leadership positions who should not be there.  Not to mention, everyone today is afraid to say, “Your not doing the job, we need to replace you, nothing personal, but your just not the right person for the position”

Instead, our government, our corporations, are not only hiring consultants which costs millions of dollars, to tell them how to do their jobs, but rewarding bad decisions, bad behavior and unethical actions with excuses, until these people in these positions actually believe and I mean this, they actually believe and delude themselves that they are doing right, when in fact, they are robbing their cohorts, and their companies, the country blind.…and believe me, I do know what I’m talking about.  

So people, I rest my case, you have seen, in my opinion, first hand, the results of what happens when people are in positions they know nothing about...adding a warning, this has become a culture throughout America...

The media for months ahead, will go back and forth with this…not to mention those of us who voted for Bush, we feel an obligation to support him, regardless if he was wrong...b/c if we say he was wrong, we admit we ourselves may have been wrong in our choice of leadership. Why? Because we voted for him...so, in the long run, no body wins, everyone looses, saving face is more important then an admition we are wrong...

It’s so very hard for people to do that today…so what do we do…do we support bad behavior or do we say, yanno, we expected you guys to do your jobs, that’s what your getting paid for, and are drawing a pension for...

We’re not talking about dollar signs here, we’re talking about life...and lives and the ripple effect decisions have made.  

What really disgraces me, is, we don’t fire anyone anymore? There is no fear of loosing your job, anything goes, and if they botch things up, the worst that can happen is, they are given a severance package and sent off with a letter of resignation or retirement.  

No one today has the guts anymore, to say, YOUR FIRED, except Donald Trump…and maybe that’s the funny story or insult to the integrity of the people of this country, behind these so called reality TV shows?  It is reality, or has society retreated to their each and own fantasy of which the wolves have taken advantage of?  I dunno?

Thank you for the opportunity to add to this thread.

And Deer, I think your a pretty awesome guy so, no insult intended to you or anyone else...just venting...I could be wrong, yanno

Respectfully and sincerely
Lee J.

[This message has been edited by LeeJ (09-08-2005 10:15 AM).]

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43 posted 2005-09-08 02:02 PM


Yes, Balladeer, I as always, despite never understanding your cold hard Teflon reverence of this administration, and our vast disagreements, do always enjoy talking with you because facillitating discussions as this where both views are represented I believe only helps us understand each other more, and helps us seek a greater wisdom of where we're all coming from, and besides that I have always seen you as one with a golden heart and warm sense of humor, even when mischevious, in your poetry and personality! (smiles) So I hope when I continue to passionately challenge your thoughts that you never take it personally, as I merely believe you are greatly misguided, and biased too, but there's never any ego conflict involved!

***

Local Rebel made some strong points earlier, and please be aware I wasn't rushing to develop any baseless formula from the fact he was strumming guitar and eating cake while New Orleans was drowning, such as that Bush doesn't care about black people or poor people. When Kanye West insisted so on NBC, I disagreed with him, still disagree now.

I did address that he did just that, however, because I believe there is a significance to it. This is all about leadership, about trust, about responsibility.

He was warned two days before he went to celebrate McCain's birthday and learn some chords with Mark Wills. He obviously had to have KNOWN that Katrina was a storm to be taken seriously. Homeland Security had to have known that.

This is about a much more, all-encompassing issue in general that stands high above any talking-heads slogan or typical asbestos soundbyte...when help is needed and the leaders of the nation are metaphorically asleep at the wheel..."What's wrong with this picture?"



Don't make excuses like "How could we have known the severity of this hurricane?", don't say you were totally oblivious and in denial of the warnings, that frankly isn't going to fly. I recall Bush and the administration responding swiftly on the spot to previous storms, such as Isabel two years ago:



I absolutely agree with that article from the New Hampshire Union Leader; a true leader would have indeed flew straight there and called for the mobilization of all humanitarian sources available. I had respect for Bush in the weeks following 9/11 because he did just that; after first hearing of the tragic news in the Florida classroom where he was reading "My Pet Goat" to children, he indeed flew there, stood high in New York City and said "The whole world can hear you!". Up until he exploited the tragedy with a call to war with Iraq, I approved of his job, I respected his leadership.

There's no excuse to why Bush couldn't have exhibited that sort of leadership in this tragedy. He was irresponsible, nontrustworthy, and very unpresidential. And doing just that, strumming chords and stuffing his face while there was a cry for help, understandably strikes many as being unsympathetic, non-compassionate.

What kind of leader insists in a press conference that "I think that one of the things that people want us to do here is play a blame game. We've got to solve problems. We're problem solvers. There will be ample time for people to figure out what went right and what went wrong. What I'm interested in is helping save lives.", yet lets his administration spearhead a Rove-led "blame the locals" smear campaign? He just can't keep his story straight.

What kind of leader says that "the results are unacceptable" and "we are not satisfied" yet just won't be specific in saying exactly what results are wrong, what he's directing "we" toward.

It's especially disturbing that many Republicans are now all saying "Hey, no nedd to blame, let's stop the blame game!" yet they're actually saying everyone's to blame but the federal government. It's disturbing that they use little energy to swiftly respond to this disaster which has claimed anywhere from 10,000-40,000 lives, yet they jump right on their feet wasting no time at all to protect themselves selfishly.

It's disturbing that FEMA is sending firefighters, where I'm sure all they want to do is go save lives and perform rescue operations, yet instead they force them to sit around in a Sheraton hotel room in Atlanta telling them to hand out pamphlets with FEMA's phone number on them, and use them as a backdrop for Bush wherever he walks.

But what's distressing most of all about this whole catastrophe is something Pelosi hit right on the head; he's oblivious to the extent of damage Katrina has caused on people's lives, people's trust in the government, and our national security.

Michael Brown and Co. were literally asleep at the wheel in response to this disaster, yet Bush believes nothing went wrong in how the response was carried out, everything went right this week, and so he was completely satisfied with their work.

The fact is, if the federal government responded just the same way again to a future storm or terrorist attack, they just can't defend our country, and they'll be just as late and undeprepared.

What kind of message does that send to the terrorists in the world, which Bush has kept saying on and on and on and on how they're bent on destroying our freedoms and liberties? This type of attitude is just going to make them believe that our country is so incredibly vulnerable, that it's a piece of cake to get in and spread their hate on the innocent here if the government is fully proud of the speed of their response.

Bush just doesn't get the magnitude of what's wrong here. His response only proves that if the government did just what they did this past week and a half in the event of a future possible terrorist attack or, God forbid, biological weapon attack, he and his administration cannot protect us, and due to that, he has damaged many's heart's to ever want to depend or count on the White House to come to the rescue and save the day.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Mysteria
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44 posted 2005-09-08 02:48 PM


I have to be honest I have not read all this thread, but did read some of this on this site, and found it interesting.
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?messageDate=2005-09-07

For you folks that love to analyze stuff

LeeJ
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45 posted 2005-09-08 03:18 PM


hey Sharon, thanks a bunch for this site...I don't always agree with Michael, but there is always good and bad in everyone...and this site is exceptionally informative, not to mention, uplifting.  Here at work, we have an employee, whose father owns an 18 wheeler...and so, we're collecting all the basics for two days and packing them off to affected areas...I'm so overwhelming happy to see all the help this country is giving...

thanks Sharon, thanks very much.

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46 posted 2005-09-08 03:21 PM


Again, if I were President, without regard for any law, I would have deployed army, navy, coast guard, and issued a state of emergency on T.V. asking everyone is surrounding states to offer whatever they could in the way of shelters and gotten those people out of that stadium.

LeeJ- Had you done so, it would have called more hassle than almost anything else you could have done. You are advocating that the President should have been the leader in this instance, and I do not disagree with you... However, what kind of leadership would it be if you are not following the laws you expect everyone else to follow? President Clinton lied under oath, and was almost removed from office for it. President Nixon was accused of conspiracy to commit a felony (breaking and entering into a governmental office- the DNC headquarters) and conspiracy to obstruct justice (the cover-up) as well as destruction of evidence, and a vast number of things, and was held to account for it, which led to his resignation. With that in mind, why would you, as you put it, ignore the laws and do what you wanted? And had you done so, how could you prosecute those who are ignoring the law in NO right now? They are doing what you have said you would do yourself... ignore the laws you are constitutionally bound to enforce.

I followed the news of this hurricane from the start of the warnings on the news, and as the hurricane came and went...flipping from CNN to the Weather Channel, to FOX...back and forth all during the first 2 & 3 days...and quite frankly reminding you that...that as the days went by, with still no relief for these people, man, did I take this very personal, screaming over and over, Where IS Our  Government and why aren’t they deploying help?

The first few days after the disaster, the water was still rising, the levees were breaking through still, as was posted too many times... it was just plain not safe. As a former firefighter and rescuer I can tell you with all of the certainty in my body and the wisdom of- unfortunately- experience that sending rescue personnel into an area where there is still significant damage being done is foolish, criminally negligent, and WILL cause only one thing to happen... injured, or dead resuers. Here's an example... at a fire scene, firefighters might look like they pull upm to the scene and go rushing in with absolutely no regard for their own safety to pull the family out of the fire and make it onto the 11:00 news... What you don't see is the fact that the commander (usually a Lt) of the very first truck on scene will tell the firefighters under his command whether to actually go be on the 11:00 news or not. There are times when the wisest choice to make is to tell your people to "surround and drown" and do a recovery effort later than to send them into a house that is fully involved, crumbling, and not going to be stable for much longer- if it is now. The you say a silent prayer that whomever it was living there got out, or was dead before the fire got to them.
This is the case in the Big Easy. The first couple of days after the hurricane landfall, the levees were breaking. Parts of NO that were ABOVE sea level (which most isn't) were 10-15 feet under water. The water was rising in measurements of feet per hour.. not day. There was no way to tell what was under the water, or if the rescuers were going to get trapped somwhere with no way to get out because another levee broke open while they happened to be performing a rescue 50 yards down the road, or if they were going to get hit by something floating underwater and get caught and drown. You say you have put yourself in the President's position... well, put yourself in the local rescue leader's position and ask yourself how many children are you willing to go to in a week and tell them that their daddy or mommy isn't ever going to tuck them in at night and kiss them goodbye for school again because you sent them into a postition they shouldn't have been in at all?

Upon the first reports of the monster hurricane Katrina hitting the gulf coast, forecasted to hit New Orleans and surrounding areas, I would have immediately phoned the Governor & Mayors setting up conference calls between us
According to numerous sources, the local leaders were in communitcation with the federal government, and chose not to listen to their thoughts. Perhaps I am seeing this completely wrong, however if a man is in trouble and doesn't want the help I have offered more than once, then (in the words of the storm tracker from earlier in this thread) I have done all I can.

I can invision his face now...just like the day he was sitting in elementary school reading a book to the children, and someone came in and whispered in his ear, "We're under attack", God, he just sat there with this dumb grin on his face in a state of shock, not able to move, didn't know what to do, again the man whispered in his ear...and finally our leader got up and was escourted out????

And whe you heard that we were under attack, or perhaps you were watching TV when it happened and saw it first hand... what did you do? I am going to take a stab at it and think to yourself "this CAN'T be happening!!!" I can almost guarantee you sat there for a second in shock when you realized it was, in fact, happening. While he is expected to be held to a certain standard, he is- after all- just a man, and had to make the switch from photo op, and thinking as a child (reading to first graders does that) to getting over the initial shock, to reaizing that he had to do something, to NOT scaring the kids and the teachers by bailing out of the room with no explaination. Give the man a break on THAT one issue. I don't know many that could have done better.

I was an office manager for a heavy & highway construction company in Pennsylvania; an office manager in charge of building roads (2 and 4 lanes), up to 100 men, heavy equipment, payroll, state codes, union codes, daily job documentation, testing concrete, finishing concrete, running people to the hospital, calling police, emergency medical teams, etc...and making certain, all materials were on the job and ready to disperse each and every day.

And during the winter of 1995 (97??) people sat out on Interstate 80 in Carbon County for almost 24 hours because people could not get to them... Now, please DO NOT get the idea that I am blaming you, or anyone in a position of power that winter. It was a huge storm, and a really nasty one that caused Governor Ridge to shut the Commonwealth down for 24 hours to try to somehow get things safe enough for the citizens. It took a super-human effort by too many people that year to get everyone through it... the point I am trying to make is that when you are dealing with the unknown element in any disaster-like situation (humans), then you have the possibility of a breakdown of communications or resources, and the possiblity that someone or some group of people isn't going to get the help they need. Is it right? No. Is it predictable? Yes. Will it happen at the next hurrican to hit landfall, even after the lessons from Katrina have been analized and played over thousands of times? Unfortunately, Yes.

not to mention those of us who voted for Bush, we feel an obligation to support him, regardless if he was wrong...b/c if we say he was wrong, we admit we ourselves may have been wrong in our choice of leadership.

I also (as might be obvious with my responses to numerous threads) voted for President Bush. And I have thought on a couple of occasions that I might have possibly been wrong... and there is nothing wrong in admitting that you made the best decision you could with the information you had at the time, even if you feel you would have made a different choice having more facts at this time.

He was warned two days before he went to celebrate McCain's birthday and learn some chords with Mark Wills. He obviously had to have KNOWN that Katrina was a storm to be taken seriously. Homeland Security had to have known that.

Noah, they DID know it... that has been stated in nummerous responses to this thread. And the President did what Presidents (ALL presidents) do... he put his people to work and stayed out of their way, allowing them to do their jobs. Whether they did those jobs properly, or didn't do those jobs properly is going to be a source of argument for the next couple of years... especially everytime another hurricane makes landfall. What would you have had him do?? Immediately run back to Washington and circle the wagons, appearing to be in a slight panic, or continue on with life and let his people do their jobs while being kept up with their progress. The President has the ability to know what is happening everywhere in the world at any time while he is jogging around the Ellipse (an area of DC)... what makes you think he couldn't do it while still doing his job and providing the people of America the "appearance" of normalcy?

I had respect for Bush in the weeks following 9/11 because he did just that; after first hearing of the tragic news in the Florida classroom where he was reading "My Pet Goat" to children, he indeed flew there, stood high in New York City and said "The whole world can hear you!".

In NYC on Sept 12, the damage was done, the fires were out, and there was no chance at all he was going to get caught in a situation where he would get trapped, hurt or killed... If he had rushed to NO and gotten photos taken of him on a roof top, or something like that, I would have joined you at your next protest rally calling him the stupidest human being on the entire planet.

And doing just that, strumming chords and stuffing his face while there was a cry for help, understandably strikes many as being unsympathetic, non-compassionate.

And, pray, Noah, what would you have had him do? Go running into NO with a paddle boat grabbing people off the streets?? At a disaster scene (again, I'll go with a fire scene just to give everyone a picture they have seen numerous times) the Batallion Chief doesn't go into the building and grab a hose. He has his people that he has hired to direct the efforts. His Captains and Lieutenants lead the troops into the building (if it's safe) and do that work. If they do not do their job, then he needs to discover what went wrong, and to make corrective actions to ensure it doesn't happen again... and that is what I believe happened. He hired the people to run the circus, and allowed them to do their jobs... and now that mistakes were possibly made, there is an ivestigation being done to ensure it doesn't happen again... actually, I believe there is a witch hunt about to take place where someone is going to get fired because they made a bad judgement call to satisfy the Democrats, and NO lessons are going to be learned, because when it happens again, regardless of who is in the White House at the time, we will have another inexperienced leader trying to do a job he is not ready for. In my opinion, we need to keep the FEMA director in office, or at the very most bring his second in command up (a Coast Guard Admiral) and allow them to continue with the lessons they learned under fire to prevent it from happening again.



When all is said
All is done
Still I live
And carry on-
Quiet Riot


[This message has been edited by Ringo (09-08-2005 06:45 PM).]

Huan Yi
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Waukegan
47 posted 2005-09-08 05:53 PM


Seems like the Mayor gets a pass because he had the sense to
panic and rant, while anyone staying calm gets hit for being
insensitive.

There have been and are people dying all the time,
probably just up the road and right now.
Millions every day.   Yet, unless those dying are known,
who here is gaunt with hunger being made too incapable
by grief, sympathy, or compassion for them to eat,
sleep, or anything else?  


Balladeer
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48 posted 2005-09-08 06:56 PM


LeeJ.....it seems that Ringo got there first and touched on most of the points of your response I would have brought up, also.

Deer, I followed the news of this hurricane from the start of the warnings on the news, and as the hurricane came and went...flipping from CNN to the Weather Channel, to FOX...back and forth all during the first 2 & 3 days...and quite frankly reminding you that...that as the days went by, with still no relief for these people, man, did I take this very personal, screaming over and over, Where IS Our  Government and why aren’t they deploying help?

I would have immediately phoned the Governor & Mayors setting up conference calls between us and said, "hey guys, this one looks bad!" What are you doing to evacuate"?

I kept screaming inside, where is help, where is FEMA, where is the Red Cross, where is Bush?

immediately I would have deployed the national guards

I’m certainly not always right….but what I do possess is some common sense



LeeJ, I have no doubt you possess a great deal of common sense. My question is...why not use that common sense in an un-biased manner? Everything you say is, "Where was Bush? What about Bush?"  Yet I didn't see one word about where is the mayor or where is the governor or why isn't the city commission doing something? The mayor could have evacuated thousands more...he didn't. Were you screaming why not? You would have deployed the national guard immediately? The Louisiana national guard is directly responsible to the governor. She didn't deploy them. Did you scream why not? The governor turned down the federal request to handle the evacuation and control the violence. Is that not worthy of a small scream? You have ignored the front line of preparation and defense and gone straight after Bush with every comment possible....is that a common sense approach?

I can invision his face now...just like the day he was sitting in elementary school reading a book to the children, and someone came in and whispered in his ear, "We're under attack", God, he just sat there with this dumb grin on his face in a state of shock, not able to move, didn't know what to do, again the man whispered in his ear...and finally our learder got up and was escourted out????

That is the only thing you said that I consider unworthy ....sorry.

    Acess to New Orleans is controlled by the National Guard and local authorities and while we are in constant contact with them, we simply cannot enter New Orleans against their orders.

    The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city.



Certainly, safety may have been a factor, but that's not what this is saying.  .....Brad's response.

Brad is right, That's not what this comment is saying. The important words in that comment are "the State Homeland Security Department"......not the national - the state. They did not allow the Red Cross to distribute food, under orders from the governor. Surprised?? Do you know why?

So the mayor, who could have saves thousands more, didn't - the governor, who could have mobilized the national guard and then accepted Washington's offer to assume control, didn't.....and everything is Bush's fault. Guess what? it's not flying. In the USA Today poll yesterday only 13% of the people polled said they blamed Bush. Undoubtedly the Democrats are furious and we can expect to see another one of their all-out offenses, which will turn more people off. Make sure all safety belts are fastened for this one.........

Juju
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In your dreams
49 posted 2005-09-08 07:03 PM


Consperacy theory:

Maybe this was politically motivated.

Buts that is just me.

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

Mistletoe Angel
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50 posted 2005-09-08 07:37 PM


"So the mayor, who could have saves thousands more, didn't - the governor, who could have mobilized the national guard and then accepted Washington's offer to assume control, didn't.....and everything is Bush's fault. Guess what? it's not flying. In the USA Today poll yesterday only 13% of the people polled said they blamed Bush. Undoubtedly the Democrats are furious and we can expect to see another one of their all-out offenses, which will turn more people off. Make sure all safety belts are fastened for this one.........

*****
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/08/opinion/polls/main824591.shtml

*

http://zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1020

*

I believe you have forgotten two other polls released today that both show a considerable majority disapproving of Bush's handling of this natural disaster.

Indeed is true there is quite a mixed opinion on who's to blame here in general, with more actually saying there's no one to blame here (38%) than all other groups combined. I find another striking statistic about that particular poll you mentioned is when you combine Bush's and the federal agencies' numbers together, you get a roughly 31% figure, still lower than the "no-blame" result and higher than the state-local authorities result.

*****

Without a doubt, the Katrina tragedy is going to be poisoned with politics, probably resonating through the rest of Bush's second term, and I can fully understand why it'll be because of the full range of issues that the response of this tragedy has on the people affected, the nations trust in our government, and our own national security.

This triad has frequently molded itself in much of the cultural dialogue and debate we've had within the past four years since 9/11, especially on counter-terrorism motives.

In terms of the former, Bush won over many following 9/11 because he made an effort to reach out. He responded genuinely to the NYC tragedy and exhibited true leadership, and he was able to persuade many at first that those responsible for the terror must be brought to justice, because he appeared human, genuine in how he stood at Ground Zero in the weeks immediately following 9/11 and were convinced he's infuse that same spirit and conscience of leadership into the mission.

Contrast that to the sluggish response this time around. Tens of thousands have been affected by this tragedy, either by loss or poverty, in fact the entire nation has been affected by this tragedy, both emotionally, spiritually and economically. And when you have officials on all the levels of government, including our own elected president, asleep at the desk, it strikes them as just not caring, unsympathetic. You heard the many on the streets crying in anger, "What's taking so long!", all decrying Bush and the government's irresponsibility on all levels. Many truly feel like they're being left to die literally, and that's how I feel too.

Looking at the middle issue, Bush gained the trust of a vast majority of the American people (90% at one point) following 9/11 because Republicans knew he cared, Democrats knew he cared, I knew he cared. All until he exploited this tragedy as an excuse to take us into a senseless war, who continues to exploit it again and again through a parade of lies, window-dressing and clumsy excuses and changing of the story. Because he betrayed and abused the trust of many, he's paid the political price for it, with his former approval rating literally being sliced in half.

Despite the downward trend in his credibility rating, his perception of him being an honest man, and approval of his job performance, Bush still maintained high marks in trust, and satisfaction in how's he handling the war on terrorism in general. But with his weak response to Katrina, with the weak response of all the political establishment in general, even the trust factor is eroding. Because of the incompetence, Bush and the government have crippled much of the trust of the American public in their own government, which is just shameful beyond all means.

Finally, many elected Bush because, being relentlessly aggressive on foreign policy, he  got a majority to believe he had the focus and determination to keep America safe. His campaign spent millions making the opposition look weak and soft on wanting to stop terrorism and so Bush seemed to many like the only viable candidate on defense.

But now, many just feel completely isolated, betrayed by his response. Most saw how seemingly everyone in the government was asleep and thinking, "How the heck can this happen in America, of all places?". "How can we possibly believe Bush and the government can defend us against the next terrorist attack, possibly a biological or nuclear attack, if nothing changes now?".

*****

I absolutely believe this is and should be a political issue by all means.

And you're absolutely correct, Balladeer, that all seat belts should be fastened here, because it looks like in terms of the government at large, everyone will be taking a wild ride.

And if you seriously believe the Democrats have been all-out offensive lately, believe me, they can be far more aggressive than they have been.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/PollVault/story?id=1080163&page=1

Remember this most recent poll, where three-fourths of Americans believe the Democrats must be more aggressive on the war in Iraq, and Bush's policies in general. A strong majority WANT the Democrats to turn up the volume, which is what I have been crying for over two-and-a-half years now for them to do, and they're still lost in the woods. The American people WANT the Democrats to be the opposition party, and I refuse to convert from an independent into a Democrat until they do just that.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Juju
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In your dreams
51 posted 2005-09-08 09:02 PM


hah!

The president handled this badly.(Rolls eyes)  From a engineering standpoint Noah you are wrong.

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

Balladeer
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52 posted 2005-09-08 09:07 PM


The American people WANT the Democrats to be the opposition party, and I refuse to convert from an independent into a Democrat until they do just that.


Noah, I don't believe you are qualified to speak for "the American people" or their wants, anymore than I am.

The Democrats have attacked before. They went after Bush's service record, Abu Grahb, Gitmo, Rathergate, flu shots....all failed miserably. It would be my guess that the anti-Bush group would not want the Democrats to attack more aggressively but in a more intelligent manner. Instead they rely in half-facts, innuendos, loud rhetoric, treating the public like they are idiots and, when it all blows up in their faces Bush is stronger. This time will be no different. They will try to ignore or cover-up the actions and inactions of the Democratic mayor and governor and throw it all on Bush and his FEMA appointee. It will fail again......

Local Rebel
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Southern Abstentia
53 posted 2005-09-08 09:11 PM


I think you guys better do a little more looking around -- you'll see plenty of Bush assault coming from the right guard too.  It isn't the left only.

Juju -- please tell me what engineering methodology you're using to give the president good grades on his performance?

Performance against specification?
Performance against schedule?
Performance against budget?


Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea
54 posted 2005-09-08 09:48 PM


Oh, this is getting really hard:

quote:
They will try to ignore or cover-up the actions and inactions of the Democratic mayor and governor and throw it all on Bush and his FEMA appointee. It will fail again......


At least here, the only thing I want to do is try to show what the DHS promised it would do, and what it didn't do. That must include criticism of local, state, and federal goverment (see Juju's thread).  

I don't think I'm spinning that and I don't want Bush damaged anymore than he already is. I want him to be the president for the next three years.

Why?

Dick Cheney.


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55 posted 2005-09-08 09:52 PM


I absolutely believe this is and should be a political issue by all means.

Noah, Noah, Noah... my dear friend, you have just lost my support for your thoughts in this matter. I firmly believe that everyone has the right to have their own thoughts and opinions about almost eveything, however when you advocate making the death and destruction of thousands of humans, 10s of thousands of animals, and countless millions (perhaps billions) in damage a politically motivated argument, then you have completely lost my support.
Do I think that something needs to be figured out and done to ensure this happens NEVER again? ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!!!! Do I think that this should be sand tabled (played out in classrooms and in planning sessions) for ever until it is gotten right at least a zillion times??? Without a doubt. Do I think mistakes were made? WITHOUT A DOUBT. Do I think it needs to be politicized??? Yeah, right
All that does is solve nothing and belittle the deaths of so many people.

When all is said
All is done
Still I live
And carry on-
Quiet Riot

Juju
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Posts 3429
In your dreams
56 posted 2005-09-08 11:21 PM


Now see I agreee with you a little more brad. I didn't want to say that the local government was soley responcible, but merely wanted to point out the horrible mistakes made by the local/State.  reading all of these threads about catrina made me almost laugh because it seemed that the things that could have been controlled were seveerly neglected.

Here is LR'S answere.  I used the term engineering, because all of its terms applied. From mechanical to planing an emergancy plan.  You see this catastrifee is the greatest engineering blunder (MY opinion) in US history.  Katrina was from nature.  but the after math became quite overwelmingly worse from one of the leveies getting a hole.  Now what caused the hole was the lake became to high and nothing was done about it, even though it was known of the consequences if a hole was to be created.  They thought the levey would hold.  But they were wrong.  Even worse when a hole was created there was no action done to lessen what had happened.  See my post for the other aspects.  I plan on getting some more to add to that list to.      

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

Juju
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Posts 3429
In your dreams
57 posted 2005-09-08 11:34 PM


OH shoot I forgot to answere your question.

I refuse to blame the president for all of this. how was he to know the levey was to break.  Was he to cross the lines of presidential power over congress? There are consequences to that to you know.  

The only responcibility I will place on him is why he couldn't be like any other politition and say he was respecting states right to refuse imediate action on this disater(hint of humor with that)  Ok enough with the jokes. Like over half of my posts have had sarcasm and jokes.

over all I also agree with brad that new orleans must be the great start of a checks and balences between the state and the fedral government. I think Hillary clinton is calling an investigation on bush and the organization. (Not again) I think Hillary that is a wonderful idea, but lets not forget or discriminate against any one.  You wouldn't want to start you presidential election like that would you. (I had a coment to add but I will refrain. Because I am a very good girl)

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

ice
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Posts 3404
Pennsylvania
58 posted 2005-09-09 08:15 AM


Noah
"I absolutely believe this is and should be a political issue by all means."

Ringo
"when you advocate making the death and destruction of thousands of humans, 10s of thousands of animals, and countless millions (perhaps billions) in damage a politically motivated argument, then you have completely lost my support."

OK, Ringo, what you said to Noah is understandable, and probably correct....saying that, I am
asking you ....How do you suggest that Noah motivate his argument, at who or what, should he throw his slings and arrows? Simply criticizing him for his method does not help him...I am at a loss to advise him.

I don't believe that Noah is attacking the victims of this disaster, I believe he is maddened by the results of foot dragging on the part of  government.

It is obvious that he needs to vent his frustrations... how do you believe he should express them? It seems that he is weak in ability to chose other ways to get his point across...Perhaps Noah could switch from the mode of war that is obvious between himself and  administration policy,  to a more diplomatic way of persuasion....But that has been proven futile in matters such as these, historically...and also looked on as a sign of weakness by his opponents...

Considering his federal adversaries have all the power that money can buy, influence and a staff of adroit pitchmen that can make a Corvair look like a Bently.. I am at a personal loss to advise him on how to act other than he is at this time...

Who or what do you suggest he attack, if not policy? (politics)

--------------ice
      ><>­

LeeJ
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since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296

59 posted 2005-09-09 09:48 AM


Hey Ringo & Deer

Good Morning, thanks for taking the time to wipe an ol gal’s forehead when she’s speaking hysterically and emotionally…: grin: as you know, some of us women do.  

First let me say, as well as it may seem, like I’m pointing fingers, and I am…what I’m trying to reiterate is…our government officials are not prepared in the event of a terrorist attack/natural disaster…we need leaders who are not afraid to make decisions in certain extreme cases and break the laws if, it comes to life and death.   Ringo, we are not talking about a lie here under oath, two completely different entities which can hardly be compared…

The other point I’ve tried to make is, Honestly, the guilty parties in this disaster who drug their feet, know who they are, and I believe they will live with the consequences of their wrong doings the rest of their lives…unfortunately and sadly.

I feel bad for them, I’m not asking for a lynching mob…what I’m trying to point out, and have been trying to suggest, is, that there are no Plans in Place…and we’ve got to, for once in our lives, learn from history.  

We are no safer now…then we were before 911…and presently Homeland Security is a joke…(which is another thread/subject) but this disaster proves my point….these men are not experienced enough for these positions.  

We need men like Swartzcoff and Powell who are well trained to effectively run Homeland Security or any search & rescue operation, and Ringo, you being in search and rescue, know what I’m trying to describe, not doing a very good job at it, I might add.  

Yes, I am advocating the President because he is our land’s leader…like I stated before, sometimes leaders need to make unpopular decisions….I’m still watching both news stations and weather channel for information…candidly, I “didn’t” know that the President phoned the mayor twice, and perhaps in anger, frustration, fear, anxiety and sadness, etc., I’m lashing out unfairly….yes, I can absolutely say I am…but, that doesn’t mean, it releases him (the President) from responsibility.  No one moved or deployed until the fourth day, Ringo, and I don’t and can’t buy your explanation for that…when others were already in there.  Those people needed help fast, and every second counted.

By the way, I didn’t vote for Bush…I just used “we” so as not to incriminate those that did   while trying to make a point, which is…it is human nature to defend those we love or vote for even if they are wrong or have displayed unacceptable behavior.  Which I believe is one of American’s weaknesses and fast becoming our culture.   And to, perhaps why we are so divided by extreme lefts and rights…we all know, both sides have made bad decisions, yet we defend them regardless?

You’ve also made some very good points about leadership and laws involving search and rescue…but…in a case of life and death…must a line be drawn?  And in this case, wasn’t it time to take over, since everyone was dragging their feet, except the local rescue teams, which did find a way in there…along with a couple who went down to help the 2nd day?

I also understand your search and rescue tactics…clearly put and perhaps more wise then my mere idea of what we should have done…perhaps I watch way to many Tom Clancy movies?  And please know, I’m not being sarcastic, but honest.

In answer to your question about 9/11…I received a call…a panicked woman’s voice screamed,  “Lee J.  One of the towers was struck by a plane!”…and yes, I was in shock…asking her, are you sure, what’s happening?  Then she said, Oh my God, the other tower was just hit by another plane…Immediately I said, “I gotta go, I’ll call you back…went to my team and said, “The twin towers have both been hit by 2 separate air planes…I think we all better go down to the conf room and get the news, as, this could be a terrorist attack.  Ringo, I would bet, I didn’t delay as long as our commander in chief did that day.

I’d like to see this country choose leaders based on a personality that is able to act and work under extreme pressure, as well, as issues.  If our commander in chief is weak, “and he is”, so will the people he chooses be.  It’s a job description which could mean the difference between life and death. yes? Isn’t it about Preparedness?  Why would you put a man in charge who has no experience in emergency response…Gosh Ringo, knowing your credentials, I would feel a lot safer with you in charge, then Brownie, or that Mayor.  Yanno?  

We need to improve public warning capabilities, train emergency managers and first responders…increase public knowledge, study emergency response options and operations, along with evacuations…teach those leaders to utilize any equipment necessary to get people out or in the effected areas, if it means, hot wiring a vehicle; to better protect the safety of the residents, then so be it. and Ringo, in the case of life or death, that’s what I would do, and deal with a criminal case against me later..…I mean, Ringo, you cannot deny, these guys didn’t know what they were doing? They didn’t.  And Bush is the commander in chief, he should have taken over, and intervened, not 4 days later, but immediately when he saw the uncertainties.  

While working Construction for 12 years of my life, I didn’t work for Penn Dot directly, I worked for private construction companies, who Penn Dot subcontracted road building/resurfacing to; so we were mobile only during the summer months…unless we had mild winters.  I worked in the areas of 940/80 and 3 sections of I-78.

If I have offended anyone, I apologize.  Am I being hard on Bush, yes, I am, and there are others in command that need to listen up and take notice.  I know a lot of you gals feel, I should let this go, and look at the good things that are being done, and I have, and personally have thanked God for such miracles as I’ve seen.  

If I let this go, you know the old saying, Time heals all wounds…and it does, and I so want to help people understand…that one can never be to prepared.  

I took this whole thing very personal…but I just couldn’t believe my eyes, as to what was happening in the way of search and rescue, which is a life saving vocation or mission…and the decision to close bases, is a very bad decision to make.  

If I left this go, then I’d be turning my back on all those people who lost they’re lives, lost family members…I can’t….and thank God for this Forum!

These plans should be put into practice and practiced over and over again….Matter of fact, one good thing is…I heard on a radio station just yesterday, that New Jersey is going to review their search, rescue and evacuation plans…they should, as every community in this nation should…if only to be prepared to get to our neighbors to help.  

Also, when we rebuild these areas, I think we should take another look at forgetting about frame houses and mobile homes in these hurricane areas…there should be a code that homes must be rebuilt with concrete block, and when we replace lines, they should be put under ground…instead, we go back and perform the very same mistakes over and over again, which doesn’t save the tax payers a nickel.  I will say this again…I saw a beach front stone home, make it through hurricane Floyd, yes there was water damage, yes, the roof was lost, but, the entire rest of the structure was intact!

Let me say, I certainly know, I have faults and I’m surely do not have all the answers, and I thank you all for your patience and help in educating me in the things I don’t know about…

We’d better make certain those we vote in office are suitable for the position and if they’re not, they’ve got to be left go.  Listen, I work with bad leaders and see the ripple effects of such…This is today’s culture unfortunately, I see way to many people in take charge positions that shouldn’t be there, and if your leaders are weak, it will stagnate the entire team.  

I’m trying to make this an issue so it doesn’t slide by us again, like 911.

I’d also like to send along a personal apology to all of you who do not understand my purpose…as I do see and am very thankful for all the good that is coming out of this devastating disaster…but we American’s forget until it happens again…and again, and there is no full proof design that will protect every single human being…but, we could certainly save lives…and increase quality of life, by having people rightfully positions they have experience for.  

I feel like if I didn’t continue with this, I would be like the person who says, Ohhhh, it’s just to awful, I can’t watch the news…

we’re supposed to learn something from this, mainly to be informed, prepared and ready…and when 911 happened, I sat there and wondered/prayed we’d learn so much, so that the lives lost in that disaster wouldn’t be in vain.  We can always do better…but to, must be thankful for the lives we did save.  

I will always believe this 3 – 4 day delay was unacceptable…regardless of rules, laws, if I’m stuck in a tree, with 15 feet of raging water under me…I wanna know, Ringo, there is someone experienced as yourself, whose going to be able to think fast, improvise any tools necessary to jump in, focusing on saving a life, or at least do his/her best.  

We can do better, is what I’m trying to say, and we’re worth it, are we not?  Please do not feel a responsibility to defend something or someone who is inappropriate when it could mean someone’s life.  We choose people on popularity, status, issues, but who lack ability and true Grit.

I want John Wayne!!!! or at least Powell or Swartzcoff?  

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60 posted 2005-09-09 12:06 PM


LeeJ- You DON'T want me in charge... lol

I cannot speak for others, however I was not offended by your remarks. Hearing your viewpoint makes for a good discussion of the issues.

Ice- Until that post, I hvae supported Noah in EVERY sentance he ever uttered on the blue pages. I did not agree with him on... well, maybe one or two... However I didn't really agree with 98% of his viewpoints, and many times could not understand his thoughts. I have often wondered if they were, indeed, his thoughts, or if her were spouting the rhetoric of professors and friends that became his thoughts... yet I have always supported him. Until that statement, and I am guessing probably only that statement.
I have see Noah make comments and statements in objection to too many threads without politicizing them. Criticize the people who made the mistakes... politicize their actions, make it an issue that CONGRESS APPROVED the FEMA secretary appointment, politicize the fact that the mayor and the Governor refused the federal government's help, politicize that it took too long in your mind for the feds to step in... however making the dead of a natural disaster (many of whom would have died ANYWAY) is stepping over my personal approval rating.

When all is said
All is done
Still I live
And carry on-
Quiet Riot

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61 posted 2005-09-09 01:45 PM


Ringo, I believe you either took my words deeply out of context in my first post on the third page of this thread, or misinterpreted them.

I specifically wrote this in the same thread:

"Without a doubt, the Katrina tragedy is going to be poisoned with politics, probably resonating through the rest of Bush's second term, and I can fully understand why it'll be because of the full range of issues that the response of this tragedy has on the people affected, the nations trust in our government, and our own national security."

Maybe the part that especially frustrated you was what I was imposing by "people affected". When I said, "I absolutely believe this is and should be a political issue by all means.", that's what I was referring to. The politics behind the people affected, the politics behind the eroding trust of the nation, the politics behind our national security. And when I was saying later on in the thread that "many truly feel like they're being left to die literally, and that's how I feel too.", I meant that certainly if you were there and no one was responding to your call, you'd certainly be desperate, you'd be angry, you'd be hollering many of the same questions many of the victims were, and you'd believe in their heart that the government truly doesn't wish you dead or anything of that sort, nonetheless their inactions are leaving you there behind, struggling to survive, and indeed I believe dozens of the losses indeed could have been prevented if there was a full-scale response two to two-and-a-half days sooner, where Bush played a role of irresponsibility, but all levels of government in their ways as well understandably.

I've said on and on how I find it absolutely disturbing Bush keeps exploiting the deaths of the approximately three-thousand Americans who were lost on September 11th four years ago on and on and on, especially in fueling an excuse for war. Believe me, my intentions are good, and when I mean this should absolutely be a political issue, I don't want to and would absolutely hate myself for making the same mistake as him in exploiting these innocent victims and make a backdrop out of them. Ford was absolutely correct what I meant (and I absolutely apologize if my words were taken the wrong way or didn't convey them well enough), in that the backdrop should be the foot-dragging of Bush and our government.

***

Frankly, if you're still convinced my last response was aimed at exploiting the New Orleans victims and are white hot angered over it, I can't begin to fathom how you're not equally as angry about our president time and time again exploiting 9/11 to capitalize on his war agenda. It still remains beyond me how you revere such a man who has done just as you have accused me of in your last response...and airbrushing it with an ongoing parade of twists and turns and magic markering. I just believe there's some inconsistency there.

You have every right to be upset, you have every right to be angry, Ringo, and I admit many of us are still in the process of mellowing down after hearing the news on and on and frustrated by the lack of community in general. I just hope from this moment forward, where we will indeed continue to sharply disagree with each other > 98% of the time and seem to be in a mode of argument more than anything else, that we've known each other for a good time now, through poetry, e-mail and discussion threads to value each other and understand each other more than ever, and through thick and thin, I know your intentions are good, just as I hope you still feel likewise about my own.



Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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62 posted 2005-09-09 01:59 PM


LR, there will undoubtedly be attacks coming from the right, also, but I don't think they will necessarily be aimed at Bush.

Without a doubt, there are plenty of targets. Aside from the mayor, governor, Bush and FEMA there is also the entire beaurocracy of the goverment. The right will go after the last two...the left will go after Bush. The paper-pushing, responsibility-avoiding, self-confused tactics that were demonstrated by FEMA, along with the state and federal government made the situation much worse than it could have been. Governments have always been a beaurocratic jungle. Anyone who has tried to pull permits for house improvements knows that. The Democrats will try to make the case that Washington was beaurocratic free before Bush came to town. Everything always ran smoothly and the GW had to come along. Others will say that Bush's appointee as head of FEMA made the difference.

Anyone remember Hurricane Hugo?

Katrina complaints echo those of the response to Hurricane Hugo

BRUCE SMITH

Associated Press

CHARLESTON, S.C. - A powerful hurricane smashes into the coast - the most costly storm in the nation's history. Thousands are left homeless, hundreds of square miles are left in the dark and people need everything from drinking water and food to baby diapers.

In the days following, the federal response is criticized as too slow, too bureaucratic.

But this is not Hurricane Katrina. It's Hurricane Hugo, which made landfall 16 years ago just northeast of Charleston, packing 135 mph winds.

Like Katrina, it was a Category 4 hurricane when it made landfall and many of today's complaints on the Gulf Coast after Katrina echo those sounded in South Carolina back in 1989.

President Bush said Tuesday he will oversee an investigation into what went wrong with the Katrina response. "Bureaucracy is not going to stand in the way of getting the job done for the people," he vowed.

It was just that bureaucracy that came under fire during Hugo for a slow federal response. After the storm smashed into Charleston on Sept. 21, 1989, it took the Federal Emergency Management Agency 10 days to open its first disaster application center in the city. There were tens of thousands of claims and too few FEMA workers to handle the crunch.

Then-U.S. Sen. Ernest "Fritz" Hollings, D-S.C., called the agency "the sorriest bunch of bureaucratic jackasses I've ever worked with."

With an 80-mile-wide swath of coast left without power, Charleston Mayor Joseph P. Riley Jr. was stunned when he asked for FEMA help and he was asked first whether a damage assessment had been done.

"I told them to send every portable generator they had, that none of them would go unused, and they asked me about an assessment," Riley said at the time.

Later, when Charleston was well on the road to recovery, Riley suggested that, with the red tape, it almost seemed easier for a foreign country to get help from Washington than a city in the United States.


I wonder if those of you old enough to be around for that went after the President and FEMA then with the same vigor you go after GW now. I seriously doubt it....

FEMA's inabilities in very major crises has been constant. Actually, I didn't  realize how much until I started digging in this thread. Homeland Security has never been tested since its organization. Who demanded FEMA come under control of Homeland Security? The Democratic Party. Who is screaming the loudest about excessive beaurocracy in Washington and yet believes in bigger government? The Democratic Party.

So, yes, LR, the fight will come from both sides but the right will be fighting policy and procedure and the left will target Bush. They will use every tactic they can think of. They will drop little comments, as you did, about Bush cutting funding when referring to the collapse of the levee, as if the two just might be related, knowing all the while, as you do, there is no connection. The average American will, I believe, look at the 40 years louisiana did nothing to solve this problem instead as the main reason.

The race card will be played, I am sure, very quickly, the Democratic ace in the hole they always turn to in times of crisis...let's see how long it takes.

I think the following comment says it best..

If everyone in Washington had been as determined to rush help to Louisiana as they now profess to be about investigating how the Hurricane Katrina response failed, the disaster might not have been so bad.

— Detroit Free Press

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63 posted 2005-09-09 05:18 PM


Dean: Race Played a Role in Katrina Deaths

By DENISE KALETTE
The Associated Press
Wednesday, September 7, 2005; 7:44 PM

MIAMI -- Race was a factor in the death toll from Hurricane Katrina, Howard Dean told members of the National Baptist Convention of America on Wednesday at the group's annual meeting.

Dean, chairman of the Democratic party, made the comments to the Baptists' Political and Social Justice Commission. The Baptist Convention, with an estimated 3.5 million members, is one of the largest black religious groups in the country.


We must ... come to terms with the ugly truth that skin color, age and economics played a deadly role in who survived and who did not," Dean said.



....and so it begins....

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64 posted 2005-09-09 06:42 PM


I just can't begin to fathom where Dean, Kanye West are others are coming from in believing that race is an issue here in the events surrounding Katrina.

Look, people of all backgrounds, ethnicities, religions, ideologies and parties suffered in this tragedy. Indeed a lot of blacks suffered; so did a lot of people from all sorts of other backgrounds. I was just audio-editing Free Speech Radio News for the KBOO evening news broadcast just now and heard a most touching story of many Asians from the Asian community of New Orleans moving to an Asian community in Houston, and some stories of adjusting and seeking familiarity across state lines. And those are just a few of many heartfelt stories coming out of this tragedy.

Howard Dean is dead wrong here and he shouldn't expect, as well as anyone else who shares the view of race playing in this, for a majority to take him seriously. Any Democrat, anyone who agrees with him here is dead wrong too.

It just doesn't help to have the words of him and Barbara Bush and Kanye West making headlines everywhere. West's claim was baseless and dead wrong, yet after Barbara Bush came out to say after speaking of the relocation efforts that many are "underprivileged anyway", which those words would only encourage the further strengthening of the baseless claim that poverty played a direct role in this, and now Dean's incredible comments here, they're only going to encourage the stretching and strengthening of these baseless thoughts.

EVERYONE has been affected by this one way or another. SOME were physically affected, losing property, loved ones and precious memories and treasures. But we ALL have been affected one another, we are all of the same heart, we all bleed the same color, and the effects that this tragedy has touched America rises high above any distinction.

Dean and others that choose to continue to play this card politically don't deserve my respect. I believed Dean could have made a wonderful chairman for the Democrats earlier, seeing his history of grassroots mobilization efforts and personality, but in the past half a year, I've grown much increasingly dissatisfied by his performance and this stands out as the most absurd manuever by him yet.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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65 posted 2005-09-09 06:49 PM


Well Mike.. all I can tell you is you have people like Bill Kristol, Newt Gingrich, the Manchester Union Leader (the most conservative newspaper in the country) attacking Bush directly.  According to the poll numbers there's lots more.
http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showa.html?article=59785

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66 posted 2005-09-09 07:59 PM


Yes, Local Rebel, there is significant dissatisfaction from the right regarding Bush's response and handling of the natural disaster. A majority still support him, but a significant percentage of Republicans nevertheless disapproved of his performance, with a vast majority of Democrats and a slightly smaller percentage of independents also dissatisfied, which that number is crucially significant.

A number of Republicans and right-wing publications and personalities have publicly expressed their disapproval of the administration's response and handling of the situation. Newt Gingrich, Joe Scarborough, some contributors at RedState.org, there's a significant bed of dissent from both sides of the aisle toward their response.

Tom DeLay, Cheney and others can go on saying how outstanding the federal response was to the tragedy; they're wrong.

Dean is being ridiculous for playing the race card, and I agree with the First Lady it needs to stop. But aside from that, I believe the Democrats seem to generally have the right idea here in responding here and bringing up the magnitude of serious issues the weak response has on our national security and the trust of the American government especially. Pelosi was right when she said that right now, Bush just seems incredibly oblivious to what is wrong here.

I believe the Democrats are the ones making a  better initial effort to find out just what wrong and see to it things are at least much more right next time. And there are many Republicans who accept and acknowledge that the response was weak and we could do much better than that who are being quite responsible and understanding here, but in terms of the parties in whole, it's the Democrats who are doing a better job getting the questions out there and demanding answers, while the Bush administration is making more of an effort saving themselves from their obvious irresponsibility and trying to tug their party along with them.

It's the Democrats who are united in calling for an independent investigation in the likes of the 9/11 Commission to investigate all the events surrounding the response, while there are some Republicans who are trying to unilateralize the investigation as one led by Bush.

***

Finally, again, despite there being much wrong in all of this, we must never let go of what is good, what is right here, for there is indeed much right in all of this as well.

I am blessed by the amazing display of compassion and generosity of the American public, of all of us, in contributing to a large number of charities and volunteering to  give all these victims and their families the gift of hope and renewal.

I am blessed that Bush and Congress united together in approving the nearly $52 billion in federal aid for the relief effort. I don't understand how any single representative could vote against the aid money (11 represntatives turned it down) but nonetheless we musn't dwell on that and be most blessed and delighted that help is on the way here with this great first step.

And finally, I am blessed that we could talk about all these issues together as the poetic family we have always been, despite our disagreements sometimes or oftenly.

*****

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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67 posted 2005-09-09 11:07 PM


LR, let me try to clarify my position on this whole situation, if I may. I said at the beginning of this thread that there was blame to go around for everyone and that there were many things I was dissatisfied with. Do I find Bush culpaple in some way? Yes, I do. I'm not saying in this thread that he is blameless. I am saying, however, that those who are bashing him simply for being Bush, those who are using this tragedy as an opportunity to continue with bashing that they have maintained for years, those who are disregarding any facts that do not point to Bush being the bad guy here...are wrong. Noah has continously reverted back to the Iraq war in this thread. LeeJ refers to his uncaring attitude upon being told of 9-11. People are stretching as far as they can to make sure Bush is cast unfavorably. Even you, good sir, refer to the reduction in funds, knowing full well that it had nothing to do with anything. You also lay blame on the fact that Bush appointed an unqualified man to head FEMA. I will certainly acknowledge the importance of that but, with reference to the above-posted article about Hurricane Hugo, FEMA has apparently always been lacking, even with fully-qualified people at the helm. The thread is filled with cheap shots and that's what I have been objecting to with my defense of GW.

Where do I think he dropped the ball? The George Bush I have admired and fought for went into Afghanistan and got rid of the Taliban. He called the UN ineffective and told them to do something or get out of the way. He told Germany, France and Russia to shove it and went into Iraq. He disregarded world opinion and did what he felt was right for America.  When he called Blanco offering federal assistance, he should have said, "Get out the the way. This is too big for you. We are taking command". He didn't. He allowed her to refuse his help. Why?

Never in the history of our country (or, at least, in my lifetime) has a president been so villified, both by the opposing party and the media. It has been as if neither one ever got over the 2000 election and decided to make his terms as much hell as possible. Everything in the world that has happened has provided an outcry for his impeachment. Abu Ghrab? Panties on prisoner's heads? Impeach Bush. The shortage of flu shots, which Bush had nothing in the world to do with? Impeach Bush. Gitmo? Subjecting prisoners to loud music and sleep deprivation? Impeach Bush. They have forged documents to get at him, provided false statements to get at him...it has not stopped for five years. Now, in this thread, we have people saying, "To hell with the rules. Lives were at stake...he needed to take control!" Did they say the same about Abu Ghrab or Gitmo....oh, no. They attacked him for NOT following rules. He has faced constant antagonism, with either a Pelosi poodle or a Kennedy K-9 snapping at his ankles every step of the way. Through it all, he has maintained his positions and responded without rancor or insulting rebuttal. Noah provided pictures of him eating cake. LR, you saw a video of him playing the guitar. Why? Why do you think the press saw fit to make sure those pics were out there for public view? Why did the press make the big deal of Bush not dropping the kid on his head and running out of the school upon hearing the news of 9-11? You know why....

Yet, in this case, the man who stood up to France, Germany, Russia, Iran and the UN, allowed a small governor to refuse his offer of assistance. Let's paint the opposite scenario and sees how it plays out. Bush tells Blanco the feds are taking over. The evacuation and the subsequent rescue efforts succeed. The Democrats, led by Kennedy and Pelosi, scream that Bush exceeded his authority. The Democratic governor could haved handled it well but Bush bullied his way in like some gone-berzerk Texas Ranger to make sure the Republicans got the credit. He disregarded the rules, ignored the proper procedures. Just another case of dirty politics and misuse of his office. You think it wouldn't have played out that way? Oh, really....?

In spite of that, I think that's exactly what Bush should have done. The George Bush I have supported fully would have done that. Unfortunately, I don't think we have that George Bush any more. I think he has been  beaten down by the constant barrage of attacks to the point that he tries to avoid situations of controversy. If he exceeds her authority, he gets blasted. If he doesn't, he gets blasted. The important part of the entire scenario should have been saving as many lives as possible. Blanco blew that by refusing federal control. Bush blew it by following the law and allowing her to do so.

For my part, I will be glad when Bush's term is over. I don't know that he will ever again be the man who told the UN where to shove it and how deep. The Left and the press have done their job well.

As the Union Leader finished it's article, I, too, echo the same sentiments..

Wherever the old George W. Bush went, we sure wish we had him back.

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68 posted 2005-09-09 11:25 PM


I guess the question is Mike, why did he pose for the photo op with the guitar?

What you saw, and the Union Leader saw, last week was the real GW.  No Rove (on vacation), no Cheney (on vacation), no Hughes (on vacation).

Sure people want to blame him for everything... I understand that you want to make sure he doesn't get blamed for what he's not responsible for -- But, letting Brown go today is pretty telling.  And the whole debit card thing just reeks of incompetence.  

Why, when FEMA has for years listed three things as it's priority threats; Terrorist Attack in New York City, A cat 5 hurricane hits New Orleans, the Big One on the San Andreas Fault -- are we seeing such poor performance here?

The Army Corp of Engineers has been warning about the levees since the 80's.  Bush's dad did nothing about it.  Clinton did nothing about it.  GW did nothing about it.  If you buy a house with a bad foundation and you know it, and don't fix it -- are you going to blame the guy who didn't fix it before you?  You can't do it Mike.

He had the opportunity and didn't do it.

The rescue operation was a disaster and people died.  You really want to tell someone who's mother died on Friday that it's just politics for politicians to hire their unqualified friends?  Everybody does it?  But, if he just showed up on Wednesday instead of Thursday --- if he had even looked at the news on Thursday to know what was going on -- Brown was oblivious Mike -- OBLIVIOUS.  He didn't even call his boss until 5 hours after the levee broke. Clueless.

FEMA hasn't always been broken.  Whit had it in great shape.  It's deteriorated on this guys watch.

What has become painfully obvious was that it was Giuliani's leadership in New York, and the smarter brother Jeb in Florida who have both kept this from coming to the fore until now.  Barbour and Blanco just didn't have the stuff.  

If you were a woman who was raped in the Superdome or you lost a relative -- wouldn't you be doing nothing short of calling for criminal neglect charges to be brought against the heads of all three levels of government?

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69 posted 2005-09-10 12:04 PM


The Army Corp of Engineers has been warning about the levees since the 80's.  Bush's dad did nothing about it.  Clinton did nothing about it.  GW did nothing about it

They have been warned longer than that. The ACE of Louisiana gets more government funding than any other state in the country. Where has the money gone? You yourself have spoken in this thread about the political corruption of Louisiana since the days of Huey long. They have certainly had the money to do it...why didn't they? When GW cut back the funding he simply gave them less money to steal.

FEMA hasn't always been broken.  Whit had it in great shape.  It's deteriorated on this guys watch.

Apparently you didn't read the above article on Hurricane Hugo, where it took FEMA 10 days to set something up and had politicians screaming. I personally would call that broken...

If you were a woman who was raped in the Superdome or you lost a relative -- wouldn't you be doing nothing short of calling for criminal neglect charges to be brought against the heads of all three levels of government?

...and if you were a woman raped in Chicago would you be calling for charges to be brought against the Governor of Illinois?

(and, btw, why was she there to be raped, instead of in one of those buses being transported out of town that the mayor didn't send?)

(and, btw, I see no Democrats calling for criminal neglect charges against the mayor or governor of Louisiana)

You see the real GW playing the guitar. I see the real GW staring down the UN....we will both continue with our perceptions - that's the American way



Local Rebel
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70 posted 2005-09-10 12:14 PM


If the governor of Illinois told me to go somewhere and I'd be taken care of there -- and there was no security, no food, no water -- you bet I would.

The democrats are demogoguing -- just like the Republicans would be doing if a Democrat was in office.

You can't blame Huey P. Long for the levees breaking -- if you want to try to do that you may as well blame Jefferson for buying the place to begin with.  Sure, there's a history to this.  And we have to understand that progression.

This was GW's down.  His quarter.  His ball.  His game.  

Staring down the UN isnt't really all that impressive to me Mike.  That's like a 500lb gorrilla staring down Erkle.  There are better ways to lead.

Oh. yeah.. the word kind of explains itself -- you go somewhere and get people to follow you -- instead of pushing them.  


Balladeer
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71 posted 2005-09-10 12:38 PM


afraid you misunderstood. I wasn't blaming Huey for the levee...my comment said that there has been major corruption there at least since his time..

If the governor of Illinois told me to go somewhere and I'd be taken care of there -- and there was no security, no food, no water -- you bet I would

hmmm...Bush told them to go to the Superdome, then?

Not only did Nagin know that the Superdome would prove inadequate for shelter for any period longer than a few hours, he encouraged people to gather there without providing the resources he knew that shelter to lack. Instead, he ran off to Baton Rouge despite his responsibility to oversee the execution of the emergency-response plans and ranted at Bush for not reacting quickly enough to the disaster

We have never had a politician with the guts to call the UN Erkle, either

At any rate, you have expressed your views and I have expressed mine...and so it goes..


Local Rebel
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72 posted 2005-09-10 12:42 PM


no.. Nagin told them to go to the Superdome without security or provisions.  His sin.

Brown, and Bush, left them there.  Brown's sin.  Bush's responsibility.  

Sorry about the Erkle comment... it's just that was the wimpiest character I could think of.  

Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea
73 posted 2005-09-10 12:51 PM


quote:
In spite of that, I think that's exactly what Bush should have done. The George Bush I have supported fully would have done that. Unfortunately, I don't think we have that George Bush any more. I think he has been  beaten down by the constant barrage of attacks to the point that he tries to avoid situations of controversy. If he exceeds her authority, he gets blasted. If he doesn't, he gets blasted. The important part of the entire scenario should have been saving as many lives as possible. Blanco blew that by refusing federal control. Bush blew it by following the law and allowing her to do so.


Mike, he hasn't changed.

This is what we've been seeing for the last five years. This is what we've been screaming about for the last five years (with the exception of a few weeks in September a few years ago).


Balladeer
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74 posted 2005-09-10 01:04 AM


Brad, I'm afraid I don't understand your comment....sincerely. You displayed my comment about him being worn down by a barrage of attacks and state that's what you have been seeing for five years. He wasn't worn down by attacks five years ago....so i;m not sure what  you have been seeing.

I do have a question, though? The scenario I posed of what would have happened had Bush forcibly taken control away from Blanco...do you see it as possibly valid?

Local Rebel
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75 posted 2005-09-10 01:08 AM


I do.  But the irony of that, is you guys, conservatives, are supposed to be the ones who say he can't and shouldn't do that Mike.  

States rights.

Juju
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76 posted 2005-09-10 01:29 AM


LR,
Give them a break.  Poor bushy man gets made fun of enough.

Brad
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77 posted 2005-09-10 04:33 AM


Sure, it could happen, Mike. There's enough talk on the internet that that would have inevitably come up. It might even have been picked up by some of the more bizarre 'major players.'

But would it have washed?

I don't think so. We already have a sound bite echo: "Extremism in the name of liberty is no vice"

change that to

"Extremism in the name of saving lives is no vice."

I think it would have been a PR bonanza for Bush.

And as I've already tried to point out, I don't think it would have been illegal -- at least according to the NRP.

Denise
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78 posted 2005-09-10 07:36 AM


LR, you think conservatives advocate States rights over saving lives?
Ron
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79 posted 2005-09-10 09:25 AM


Everyone should advocate State's Rights over saving lives. While that may seem bitterly harsh, it's long term thinking rather than short term. Saving one life today is a poor bargain if it costs a hundred lives twenty years down the road, and poorer yet when it throws away what thousands have died to protect. Expediency is an easy answer, but invariably the wrong one.
Local Rebel
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80 posted 2005-09-10 09:52 AM


Strongly, vehemently, emphatically disagree Ron.  The Fed has the obligation and authority to protect the Constitutional rights of Citizens over the rights of States.

The Supreme Court has time and time again affirmed that we are Citizens of the United States -- not Citizens of States.

Denise, I think that there are a number of Conservatives who do think that.  Many are still protesting 'forced' desegregation.  


Brad
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81 posted 2005-09-10 10:49 AM


I still don't see this issue as States' Rights issue.

Look, if your house is on fire, you don't expect FEMA to jump in, you expect the local fire department.

If there's a brush fire in Mojave or a freak pile up on the Grapevine (I 5)-- the state.

If you have a 7.0 earthquake or a category 4 or 5 hurricane, the feds.

I see Mike's scenario as a political move by the opposition and it could certainly happen, but I don't see how any state could or would turn down help in such a situation immediately and then go political later.



Why would they?

Ron
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82 posted 2005-09-10 10:56 AM


quote:
The Fed has the obligation and authority to protect the Constitutional rights of Citizens over the rights of States.

And I strongly, vehemently, emphatically agree, LR. Which is why forced desegregation was necessary.

Forced desegregation, however, was not a cup of instant coffee. On the contrary, it had to brew for years over the sometimes slow heat of due process. Until the Supreme Court ruled on Brown v. Board of Education in 1954, the hands of the Federal government were effectively tied. It was not a unilateral decision by the Executive branch, which is already far too powerful in this country.

The tragic irony here is that it should never have been an either/or situation.

According to Balladeer's source :

"Behind the scenes, a power struggle emerged, as federal officials tried to wrest authority from Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco (D). Shortly before midnight Friday, the Bush administration sent her a proposed legal memorandum asking her to request a federal takeover of the evacuation of New Orleans, a source within the state’s emergency operations center said Saturday.

The administration sought unified control over all local police and state National Guard units reporting to the governor. Louisiana officials rejected the request after talks throughout the night, concerned that such a move would be comparable to a federal declaration of martial law."

What's with this "federal takeover" crap?

Michigan has sent three score police officers, nearly a hundred fire fighters, and countless emergency and charitable personnel to Louisiana in the past week and NOT ONCE has demanded that Governor Granholm be placed in charge. The Federal government clearly had resources available that could have helped save lives, and those resources should have been made available. Our gulf area needed help, not ultimatums.

Local Rebel
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83 posted 2005-09-10 11:17 AM


Thanks Ron, for a second there I thought you lost your mind.  But, on Friday night there was a completely different set of circumstances -- the issue was the pre-evacuation of New Orleans.

The second the levee's broke on Tuesday -- that's when emergency powers do come to bear for the Executive -- and I think it would have been a Constitutional exercise of that power.

Brown v. Board is now settled law -- the tea is made.  

ice
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84 posted 2005-09-10 12:27 PM


­Jan., 1991
Ronald Reagan's FEMA chief publicly argued that the 1865 Posse Comitatus Act prohibited the military from arresting civilians...

But  Professor Diana Reynolds,  Fletcher School of Diplomacy , Boston- Tufts University

States that laws such  as the "Defense Industrial Revitalization and Disaster Relief Acts of 1983" " permits the president to do anything from seizing the means of industrial production, to conscripting a labor force, to relocating groups of citizens etc....thus in effect allowing him to override the constitution in times of national catastrophe..

Sounds to me like doing what he pleased was something that Bush could have done regardless of what Blanco said or agreed to, or said on the phone.

(Can anyone tell me why Bush insisted on doing that anyway? I mean only agreeing to show if the military would be in charge of keeping the law? With powers to arrest people?)

The congress at that time (1983) reinforced the act by giving the
military reserves an exemption from Posse Comitatus, by allowing them
power to arrest civilians. The National Guard, under the control of state
governors in peace time, is exempt from that act also, and can arrest
civilians legally...The governor has authority to demand that the National Guard use this law to bring stability back to the stricken region of its state, that is, the governor can give arrest powers to the guard in the event of crime witness, such as looting and other criminal activities during rescue and recovery. I thought I saw a guardsmen on TV say he was not there to be a policeman, but to only give his physical aid as help in recovery?

Perhaps the governor  refused to give the guards the order?

Perhaps the governor knew this, perhaps not..

On July 6, 1989, Bush (1) signed Executive Order 12681, pronouncing that FEMA's National Preparedness Directorate would "have as a primary function intelligence, counterintelligence, investigative, or national security work."
Perhaps this explains FEMA's poor performance in responding to the San Francisco earthquake (October, 1989) And Hurricane Hugo (Sept 1989)...The same preoccupation with war had weakened the effectiveness of FEMA, by order of the president, in my mind, the same scenario applies in this (Katrina) event, under Bush 2. The mindset seems the same.

FEMA was ill prepared to handle the results of the two natural occurring emergencies because its mission given it at that time was to plan their role in repressing domestic dissent in the event of an invasion abroad, and that took  their focus away from domestic catastrophe, prepardness issues.

At this point in time it should be remembered that FEMA was an organization that had been controlled by the  Reagan-Bush, war is the answer logic, and not what it eventually evolved into as time went by, and a more domestic, problem centered government developed, at least for eight years in which it did its duty in a much more natural disaster oriented manner.


I am way behind in following this most interesting thread, admitting I have not read every word of its transcript...My life is filled with business problems to solve...but I will add a bit to something that Baladeer said in a post a page back...

Baladeer..
"Who demanded FEMA come under control of Homeland Security? The Democratic Party."

(excerpt-June 12, 2002 Heritage Foundation web site-by Michael Scardaville
Backgrounder #1559)

"The President's proposal would not create a new federal bureaucracy; rather, it would combine existing federal agencies and offices that have homeland security responsibilities under one authority. For example, the President would transfer the new Transportation Security Administration and the Coast Guard to the DHS, which would remove all direct homeland security duties from the U.S. Department of Transportation. The President also would fold the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) and the Department of Agriculture's Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service (APHIS) into the DHS."

It seems like it was the presidents idea, to "fold" FEMA into DHS, at least according to this  conservative publication.
*
"Who is screaming the loudest about excessive beaurocracy in Washington and yet believes in bigger government? The Democratic Party".

This seems off topic to me, so I will not respond here. Perhaps we should open a new  thread and discuss this under a different heading....all I want to say about it is that I cannot find historical backing for that argument,  to the contrary, find information to disprove it.

Got to go see a client....will return later...

----------------ice
    ><>
..
­­
­

Local Rebel
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85 posted 2005-09-10 12:50 PM


quote:

At this point in time it should be remembered that FEMA was an organization that had been controlled by the  Reagan-Bush, war is the answer logic, and not what it eventually evolved into as time went by, and a more domestic, problem centered government developed, at least for eight years in which it did its duty in a much more natural disaster oriented manner.



exactly -- and those 8 years were under James Lee Witt -- who had FEMA in great shape..

I am absolutely mystified by this though;

quote:

Before joining the Bush administration in 2001, Brown spent 11 years as the commissioner of judges and stewards for the International Arabian Horse Association..."This was his full-time job...for 11 years," [a spokeswoman] added.

Brown was forced out of the position after a spate of lawsuits over alleged supervision failures. "He was asked to resign," Bill Pennington, president of the IAHA at the time, confirmed last night.

Soon after, Brown was invited to join the administration by his old Oklahoma college roommate Joseph Allbaugh, the previous head of FEMA until he quit in 2003 to work for the president's re-election campaign.


http://business.bostonherald.com/businessNews/view.bg?articleid=100857&format=text




How do you go from running a horse club to being FEMA director?  Cronyism.

Tim
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86 posted 2005-09-10 02:37 PM


I think I have it.  The ultra-right(everyone to the left of Teddy Kennedy) secretly ordered the Atlantic fleet out into the Gulf and played Rush tapes over the gulf.  

The hot air catapulted Katrina into a category four hurricane (with only a slight nudge needed because of global warming)( also, there was no need to go to a category five as preplanning required only a three or four to breech the levees) at which time the religous right (everyone who believes in a diety) attended a Billy Graham crusade in Biloxi which created such an intellectual vacuum, Katrina was sucked into the Mississippi coast.

It goes without saying the levees had been secretly weakend by the neocons (rats love to tunnel in levees) as part of a plot to allow George Bush to fly in Air Force One (he likes to fly)(but only after he finished the song on the guitar).

I remember a saying when I first heard when I was in junior high some 35+ years ago-

there are those who fight the battles.  There are those who watch from the sidelines.  Finally, there are those who wait in the hills until the battle is over then come down and pick the bones.

Heck fire, this is progress, why wait until the battle is over, start picking on the bones while the fight is going on.

In any event, my vote for fault?  We are a government of the people and we get the type of government we choose.  I vote for the people of the United States and this includes the whole political spectrum.

And by the way, I do find it morally repugnant and intellectually lacking to interject politics and race into the midst of a natural disaster and such massive human suffering.



Midnitesun
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87 posted 2005-09-10 02:39 PM


The head of FEMA should be a trained disaster relief professional, not a former horse show judge (who, from what I've heard, was fired for  incompetence in that posistion). While Brown must have some talents that are useful, he is also the proverbial scapegoat here.
I still think FEMA needs to be seperated out from DHS, and be run by people who have specific training and knowledge in disaster relief management.

And we should ask about THE PLAN. What plan? Who planned for water/food deliveries? who planned the initial evacuation? who was in charge of relocation services? who planned for the body retrievals? who planned for the disposal of the millions of tons of destroyed property, much of which contains asbestos and toxic materials?
Somehow, I can't help but think everyone expected 'the other leader' to be in charge. But what other leader? When its just one state involved, I guess it make sense that the governor is the primary leader, but this hurricane hit multiple states, and it was obvious from DAY ONE that a national/federal relief effort was needed. Thank God for the ARC, the Salvation Army, the millions of churches and private groups that stepped in immediately WITHOUT government leadership, and began to do what was needed. If we are going to expect/want the feds to handle emergencies, then we need to make sure they have the right people in place, and the OK to step in immediately no matter which state toes they step on. This disaster is clearly beyond anything any mayor or governor can handle on his/her own.
But we don't need more leaders and titles, we need people who are trained professionals in charge, not politicians.

Local Rebel
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88 posted 2005-09-10 02:49 PM


Well to be fair Kacey we have to remember that Brown was the deputy director for three years, but, we all know what happens when Andy's not around and Barney takes the bullet out of his pocket.

How bad can you be when you're fired for not being able to manage a horse show?

Mistletoe Angel
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89 posted 2005-09-10 03:24 PM


Tim, I agree with you that it is just inappropriate and wrong that many are insisting race had something to do with Katrina, and now this poison is leaking into some of our politics.

I've seen the new polls, and I understand that while nearly 80% of whites don't believe race played a role in the political nature of Katrina, about two-thirds of blacks think otherwise. I don't want to sound insensitive to the majority of blacks polled and I sympathize very much with them and always have, but I respectfully disagree with them.

Look, I understand that over 67% of New Orleans' population is African-American, in fact the whole region has an African-American majority. I understand that the poverty rate among its African-American population is three times the national average, which I agree is most unsettling. I understand that a vast majority of the 34% of New Orleans residents who live below the poverty line are African-American. I understand the frustration in their community and they need to be looked upon and listened to one way or another.

But I absolutely agree with Laura Bush when she denied that race slowed down the aid process during and in the aftermath of Katrina, and that the issue here is not race, it's about class and poverty.

I don't only strongly disagree with Dean that race is an issue here and believe he is dead wrong, I also can't understand how he expects to gain any political ground for the party out of this strategy. A strong majority of whites like myself disagree with him, and nine out of ten blacks already consistently vote Democrat anyway. What is he thinking, I just don't understand his leadership.

I reasonably understand that poverty will always exist in one way or another, no matter where you live in the world. Though it is a fact that more have fallen into poverty since Bush took office, poverty existed when Clinton was president, with his infamous Welfare Reform Act scarring many. Poverty existed under Lyndon B. Johnson when the minimum wage was worth about $3.50 more an hour than it is today. Heck, poverty existed under George Washington.

But it is inexcusable that the issue of improving and strengthening the American family and providing the basic qualities of life to all has very much been left on the backburner, or at least overshadowed by things like the war on Iraq and proposed constitutional amendments to ban gay marriage, and these issues rise far above any line, any distinction, any color of ones skin.

In Louisiana, there are 57,000 children who were eligible for this health-care program for low-income families called "La Chip" that have not been enrolled. That is an OUTRAGE, and a total, cruel embarrassment that we remain the only industrialized, first-world nation NOT to have universal health care coverage entitled to ALL citizens.

It's things like that that must be brought tot he national stage, front and center, as immediately as humanly possible, and if we can keep our hearts and minds focused on these issues, soon those parts of the nation that that new United Nations report state look like Third World communities will gradually vanish and, I hope, in the not so distant future visions of the Third World will be extinct in America.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Balladeer
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90 posted 2005-09-10 05:06 PM


Who is screaming the loudest about excessive beaurocracy in Washington and yet believes in bigger government? The Democratic Party".

This seems off topic to me, so I will not respond here. Perhaps we should open a new  thread and discuss this under a different heading....all I want to say about it is that I cannot find historical backing for that argument,  to the contrary, find information to disprove it.


Ice, I would be very interested in seeing that disproving information. From what i have seen over the years is the Democratic party in favor of more organizations, more control, more federal power. I will also look for information concerning this point.

LR stated that, as a victim, he would go after all three heads of governement, assuming he means city, state and federal. Can anyone show me any condemnation of either Nagin or Blanco by the Democratic party? Their failings seem pretty well documented. I'm not saying there isn't any but I can't find an instance. According to the left there is only one culprit here....Bush. There is nothing new to that tactic. I feel assured that, if it were a Republican mayor and governor and a democrat in the White House, the mayor and governor would be getting barbequed and the Democratic president, whose offer of help was coldly rejected, would be the victim.

Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea
91 posted 2005-09-10 06:25 PM


What are you looking for? There are examples all over the place of people admitting that mistakes were made at all levels:

quote:
Even if you agree with every substantive criticism leveled at Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin (and at least some of the criticism seems warranted), the fact remains that once their poor management of this crisis became apparent and the lives of thousands remained at stake, and as the situation became progressively more untenable, the amelioration of the disaster became more and more of a federal responsibility by default. What exactly is the purpose of FEMA supposed to be, if not to respond to dire emergencies that have overwhelmed municipal and state response mechanisms?

http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/9/7/213523/5913

But somehow I don't think that's going to satisfy you.  

The point is that, as far as I can tell, most democrats (there are always exceptions) do realize that mistakes were made, but we still don't see what that has to do with the mismanagement at the federal level.

Is there anybody who is a democrat or an independent, a libertarian or a liberal, who doesn't think that Nagin and Blanco screwed up?


Local Rebel
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92 posted 2005-09-10 06:36 PM


It all depends on what you mean by 'Democrat' Mike.  I haven't heard any holding office criticize Nagin or Blanco -- unless you want to count Nagin pointing the finger at Blanco.

But it's working the other way too.  I haven't heard a seated Republican official criticizing the President or FEMA -- well no.. scratch that -- Trent Lott did say it was time for Brown to go.  But it's coming from the conservative press and former elected officials like Newt or Scarborough.

There again -- there are 'liberal' journalists/pundits who have spread the blame to the Mayor and Governor... that I've heard on radio and television -- but I can't find it on the web.

But what you have is a situation like Columbine -- where both sides start advancing their old agendas.  In that case the conservatives said basically -- 'see we need prayer in schools', liberals said -- 'see we need gun control'.

So now you have Dems proposing new Medicaid expansion and Reps going for school vouchers and repealing wage regulations for construction workers.

But you have Nagin and Blanco being villified by the poliicos in the White House which started immediately -- and of course they are being blasted relentlessly by talk radio.

Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea
93 posted 2005-09-10 07:37 PM


eleanorclift

quote:
Clift replied, "The blame game is a derogatory term for accountability and we've had failures on the part of government and our leaders at the local level, at the state level and at the presidential level."

Lowry interrupted to say "So that was a mistake? ...So Eleanor, you tonight are holding Governor Blanco accountable for trying to starve out evacuees last week from the Super Dome and the convention center? For the record, you're holding her accountable?"

Clift said Blanco was trying to get people to leave.

[Brad: if this is true, she'd better damn well be held accountable]

Lowry, excitedly asked, "Was it a good idea or not? Was it a good idea or not? ...Be straight, Eleanor!"

Clift told him to stop yelling at her. She said, "There's blame to go around but in the end, the federal government is our last defense and it's the failure of the federal government that has people in this country worried."

--------------------[trying to save space]

Colmes, addressing Reagan, called it "a shame" that "the same people accusing Democrats and liberals of blaming the president are the same ones who can't wait to blame the mayor, can't wait to blame the governor."

Reagan's answer was, in essence, that the other side started it first. "They started pointing fingers at the president of the United States," Reagan said. Blaming the mayor and the governor was "in order to come to the aid of the president."


You might want to check the transcripts on this one, but, if true, look at that last comment.

At least he's being honest.

Balladeer
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94 posted 2005-09-10 07:44 PM


(and at least some of the criticism seems warranted)

"But somehow I don't think that's going to satisfy you."  -  Brad

Very perceptive of you, Brad. No, I was thinking of something more along the lines of this......

By TOM RAUM
The Associated Press
Wednesday, September 7, 2005; 10:18 PM

WASHINGTON -- Democrats, divided over President Bush's handling of Iraq, are coming down hard on his administration's response to Hurricane Katrina.

Some of the harshest words are coming from 2008 presidential hopefuls. Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York ridiculed relief coordinator Michael Brown's suggestions. Former North Carolina Sen. John Edwards said the hurricane's aftermath underscores the "two Americas" theme of his presidential campaign last year.

"It's piling on time," said Rutgers University political scientist Ross Baker.

Democrats, ready with talking points and working closely, went into full battle mode Wednesday.


Former Democratic vice presidential candidate John Edwards speaks Wednesday, Sept. 7, 2005, in Chapel Hill, N.C. Edwards joined critics who have panned the Bush administration's response to Hurricane Katrina, saying the president was slow and indecisive in making decisions about the disaster

Senate Democratic leader Harry Reid of Nevada pressed for a broad investigation that would explore questions such as "How much time did the president spend dealing with this emerging crisis while he was on vacation?"

`Oblivious. In denial. Dangerous,'' Rep. Nancy Pelosi, D-San Francisco, the House minority leader, said of President Bush as she stood in front of a battery of uniformed police officers and firefighters in a Capitol Hill ceremony that had originally been scheduled to commemorate the anniversary of Sept. 11. ``We need someone to take charge.''

``Americans should now harbor no illusions about the government's ability to respond effectively to disasters,'' she said. ``Our vulnerabilities were laid bare.''

Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts, the Democratic presidential candidate in 2004, said in an interview: ``It's a summary of all that this administration is not in touch with and has faked and ducked and bobbed over the past four years. What you see here is a harvest of four years of complete avoidance of real problem solving and real governance in favor of spin and ideology.''

The liberal group Move-On.org Political Action organized an anti-Bush rally at the White House on Thursday featuring evacuees and signs reading "Shame" and "Help hurricane victims."

Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean escalated the debate on Katrina and race by blaming slow government response on the fact that many of the victims in New Orleans were poor and black.

Get a better idea now, Brad?

The Washington Post sums it up pretty well..

The immediate aftermath of Hurricane Katrina has looked like politics as usual. The Democrats are in a paroxysm of righteous indignation -- much of it justified but in the long run counterproductive. When Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid proposes that the Senate investigate whether President's Bush's vacation contributed to the disaster, the public response is likely to be: Give me a break! When the Democrats focus all their criticism on the GOP-led federal government and ignore the appalling lapses of Democratic administrations in New Orleans and Louisiana, they lose credibility.

Yes, of course, Democrats, independents, liberals and everyone else know that Nagin and Blanco share a large part of the blame....but that doesn't get into the rhetoric fed to the news media. That rhetoric is all reserved for the attack on Bush....they are not interested in laying blame where deserved but in placing it on Bush's head exclusively.


Brad
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95 posted 2005-09-10 07:52 PM


Blanco's incompetence

This is a big one.

quote:
Here's a bit of incompetence he relayed to me regarding the embattled (better word than incompetent?) Governor of Louisiana, Kathleen Blanco:

You've heard about a lot of the f--kups in the Hurricane Katrina emergency effort. I talked to Dad yesterday and he pointed out one you probably haven't heard of yet.

A lot of doctors (including him) rushed to New Orleans (at their own expense) to help in the effort. Doctors (especially in refugee centers like the convention center and the Superdome) were overworked and there weren't enough to deal with the health needs of refugees.

Dad doesn't have a license to practice medicine in Louisiana. He's licensed in Wyoming. Since licenses are issued by states, it's illegal for him to practice medicine in a state where he's not licensed. He can't (for example) just drive to South Dakota and go to work in a hospital there. He would need to be licensed by that state's medical board. He holds licenses in multiple states, but not Louisiana.

In emergencies like natural disasters it's normal for states to suspend this requirement and offer temporary reciprocity with the other 49 states, recognizing their licenses as being valid in the affected state. In an emergency, who cares where your doctor's license comes from? Usually this requires a proclamation from the governor stating that there's an emergency and that out-of-state licenses will temporarily be as good as in-state licenses.

In Louisiana, it took several days for the governor to issue such a proclamation. Meanwhile, doctors from all over the country just sat around in New Orleans, unable to do anything.


Now, be careful here. Even though 'Dad' is used here, it's still a second hand report.

But if true, and it rings true to me, Blanco has the same problem as Brown.  

Brad
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96 posted 2005-09-10 08:05 PM


quote:
Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts, the Democratic presidential candidate in 2004, said in an interview: ``It's a summary of all that this administration is not in touch with and has faked and ducked and bobbed over the past four years. What you see here is a harvest of four years of complete avoidance of real problem solving and real governance in favor of spin and ideology.''


He's right.

quote:
Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean escalated the debate on Katrina and race by blaming slow government response on the fact that many of the victims in New Orleans were poor and black.


He's right.

Listened to Mark Williams or Barbara Bush recently?

The difference is that democrats don't/didn't do anything about it either.


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97 posted 2005-09-10 08:19 PM


But you have Nagin and Blanco being villified by the poliicos in the White House which started immediately

I would be very interested in seeing any comments by Bush or the White House politicos which villified or insulted or criticized either Blanco or Nagin from the beginning...or whenever....I haven't found any.

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98 posted 2005-09-10 08:29 PM


The USA Today issued an excdellent synopsis of the actions, before, during and after the disaster..
The response and responsibilities in a disaster
By USA TODAY staff


The burden of planning for and responding to natural disasters is shared by scores of agencies at all levels of government. As the debate rages over what went wrong in New Orleans in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina and who was responsible, here's a look at the lines of authority when disaster strikes:


LOCAL GOVERNMENT

The first response to an emergency falls to local government, which is most familiar with local conditions. Its responsibilities include planning and prior arrangements for evacuation, shelter and first response by police, fire and medical personnel. In Louisiana, flood-protection levees also are the primary responsibility of local levee boards.

What was done before Katrina

On Aug. 27, two days before the storm hit, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin warned his citizens not to be complacent. He advised people to board up their homes, fill their gas tanks and gather their medications. For people without cars or other ways to flee, the city designated the Superdome, convention center and other sites as temporary shelters. City bus pickups were available.

Nagin did not at first make the evacuation mandatory, and it's unclear whether the city plans included those in nursing homes or homebound residents. About 134,000 residents had no transportation, but the city didn't provide for that need.

The next day, Nagin made evacuation mandatory. "The storm surge will most likely topple our levee system," he said.

For years, engineers had warned that the levees were weak, but they hadn't been shored up because of funding shortfalls and disputes over their location and environmental impact.

What has happened since Aug. 29

Nagin's prediction came true, and the flood that followed made it clear the city was unable to cope.

A third of the city's police force, many dealing with relocating their own families, failed to show up for work. Looting was rampant, and gunshots were fired at rescue workers.

"Man, I had a pretty good plan until this latest crisis," Nagin said Aug. 30, a reference to initial failed efforts to plug a growing hole in the 17th Street Canal levee. "We need resources, and the National Guard and the Army," he said, but he stopped short of asking that martial law be declared. The Superdome became a squalid camp. (Related story: Lessons learned)

STATE GOVERNMENT

When local resources are overtaxed, the state steps in with logistical help and manpower. The state's main resource is the National Guard, which is under the control of the governor. The state also is a source of matching funds that, combined with federal money, go to build levees.

What was done before Katrina

Gov. Kathleen Blanco warned citizens to evacuate, and the state's Transportation Department and police managed traffic flow north. On Aug. 26, as the storm approached, Blanco declared a state of emergency.

Two days later, she wrote President Bush to ask for help, saying the crisis was "beyond the capabilities of the state and affected local governments."

About 65% of the state's Guard troops were available, the rest depleted by deployments to the Iraq war, anemic recruiting and other reasons.

What has happened since

Once looting broke out, there was a lag in getting troops to restore order.


By Aug. 31, the state had activated 3,780 Guard troops, and others were on the way from other states. It would be two more days before a significant presence became visible in the city.

There was a delay while Blanco and the White House grappled over whether to turn over law enforcement authority to the federal government, and whether all Guard troops should be put under federal control — both of which the governor resisted.

FEDERAL GOVERNMENT

Washington is the final stop when disasters outstrip state and local resources. When called upon, the Federal Emergency Management Agency takes the lead in coordinating the response, providing supplies and helping with cleanup and aid to those whose homes are destroyed. It can also enlist the Defense Department for troops, air and sealift help.

What was done before Katrina

On Aug. 27, President Bush, on vacation at his Texas ranch, declared a state of emergency in Louisiana. The next day, FEMA was moving response teams to Shreveport, La., and Jackson, Miss., and stockpiling relief supplies in Atlanta and Denton, Texas.


The Army Corps of Engineers, which built most of the flood-protection levees in the region, pulled its personnel to a safe distance, expecting rising water from the storm would top the levees.

That meant no one was checking the levees, and "that's the reason why we had a tough time understanding" the developing crisis, said Lt. Gen. Carl Strock, corps commander.

What has happened since

On Aug. 30, the day after the storm hit, Bush made a V-J Day speech in San Diego, prefacing it with some remarks about the disaster. After the event, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said the Pentagon has "a lot of capabilities that are engaged and on standby."

The next day, Bush ended his vacation two days early and returned to Washington.

In an interview with ABC News on Sept. 1, the president said, "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees."

In fact, FEMA had run a mock disaster exercise a year ago in which the levees were breached by a fictitious "Hurricane Pam."

The White House issued a fact sheet detailing the federal government's response, including 50 medical assistance teams, 25 search-and-rescue task forces and 1,700 trucks to move supplies. Eight Navy ships were headed to the Gulf of Mexico, though they would take days to arrive.

Bush's management team at FEMA came in for criticism, particularly from editorial pages and Democratic leaders such as Sen. Harry Reid of Nevada and Rep. Nancy Pelosi of California. Charges included slow decision-making, spurning offers of aid from the Red Cross and states, and a lack of experience in managing disasters, particularly for FEMA Director Michael Brown.

Members of Congress such as Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York questioned whether folding FEMA into the Department of Homeland Security had weakened its disaster-relief role amid a heightened emphasis on fighting terrorism.

Reporting by Jim Drinkard and Tom Vanden Brook. Contributing: Peter Eisler, Mimi Hall, Judy Keen, Steven Komarow, Dave Moniz and Matt Kelley.



Mistletoe Angel
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99 posted 2005-09-10 09:16 PM


Well, I agree with a majority of the comments that were made by Democrats in criticism of Bush's response, minus Dean's ridiculous race card claim.

I believe Blanco and others in lower levels of the government have their own serious issues to deal with, and justice must be brought to light in the local and state levels of the government. But as was pointed out earlier, which Joe Scarborough and Eleanor Clift's comments echo that reasoning, yes, Nagin has the responsibility governing the city of New Orleans, while Barbour has the responsibility of governing the people of Louisiana, just as here in Oregon Tom Potter has the responsibility of governing Portland and Ted Kulongowski governs the people of Oregon, but it is the president and the federal government that represents the American people collectively, and they have a most important role in collaborating with the lower governments likewise, and, in the end, it is the president that calls in the National Guard, FEMA officials, etc.

It is obvious not just Bush, but the government's response was poor. Yet one statistic that has been overlooked here in polls is that almost half of Republicans believe (and mind you again the poll asks not about Bush alone but the federal government) believe they did either an excellent or good job responding, as indicated in this new Newsweek poll:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9280375/site/newsweek/

I imagine the bulk of this half of the GOP who believe that are the same loyalists who have consistently backed him up within the past two-and-a-half years, who shout in outrage over the federal government being politicized over Katrina yet staunchly support Bush every time he exploits 9/11 and the victims as political fuel for his disastrous Iraq policy.

It's true that the Democrats are directing much of their offense towards Bush right now, but all at once I find they are also showing the better leadership right now.

It was a Democrat, Congressman John D. Dingell, who introduced legislation Tuesday to remove FEMA from the Department of Homeland Security and turn it into an independent agency headed by a Cabinet-level executive, which I absolutely agree with. James Lee Witt agrees too.

It was John Conyers, along with Feingold and other Democrats, that have been preparing legislation to protect Katrina victims from being penalized by the new infamous bamkruptcy laws that go into effect next month to make it more difficult for citizens to file for bankruptcy, with this legislation offering flexibility for the victims in the proceedings.

The Democrats have also made efforts in offering the victims easier access to food stamps, better chances at enrollment in Medicaid, and federal assistance in helping students from displaced families find a way into a school district.

Pelosi was probably the lead politician from either party to call for the firing of Michael Brown (who was thankfully been removed from the Katrina duty to prepare for the next possible storm) and she is also the one calling for a "Select Hurricane Relief Task Force".

The Democrats are the ones who are united in calling for an independent investigation into all the efforts surrounding Katrina.

Finally, the Democrats were who made efforts within the past two years to boost funding for FEMA and the Army Corps of Engineers, whose efforts were shot down.

I believe while the Democrats are going on the offensive against Bush and the federal government here, they are also proving to be conveniently multi-tasked in making these sort of positive efforts to help the victims adjust back to their lifestyles.

I hope the administration takes their efforts to heart here, rather than suspending minimum wages to protect the interess of insurance companies and offering tax breaks to oil companies who've already exploited many consumers in this tragedy. I hope they can show leadership at the public level now, something which was completely lost several days after Katrina struck.

That $51.8 billion Bush urged Congress to pass and did is a start.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Alicat
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100 posted 2005-09-10 09:36 PM


Speaking of Brown, perhaps everyone against him has forgotten his prior 3 years as FEMA director.  How many major hurricanes have we had struck the US?  How many displaced people were helped by FEMA quickly?  Why where they helped out quickly?  The affected state governments made very sure FEMA knew about their situation after the states had done everything in their power to help their citizens.  And FEMA responded in a very timely manner.  To them, the Federal Government was a last resort, when ALL state resources were expended.  With Hurricane Katrina, FEMA didn't respond as quickly as some would have wanted, but they did with ALL the prior hurricanes over the past 3 years.  I wonder why that is.
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101 posted 2005-09-10 09:41 PM


I listed them, 'cat. There were no responses or comments...
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102 posted 2005-09-10 10:16 PM


Go fig...  You and I are part of a small handful of peoples here who don't agree fully with the current Administration, but don't try to find fault at every turn.
Brad
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103 posted 2005-09-10 10:20 PM


quote:
"State and local governments are looking to us for leadership. They are looking to FEMA to tell them where are the holes in response plans? Where are the holes in our mutual aid agreements? What incentives can you provide us to fill those holes? I think my role is a very serious one. I think the agency's role is a very serious one, that we should not just wait for someone to petition or request that we evaluate, that those types of plans should be evaluated (plans regarding evacuations) on an ongoing basis. It would be my intent to somehow implement the ongoing evaluation so we do not have to look in hindsight and say, gosh, we wish we had looked at that. We should be looking at that all the time to make sure they (plans) are adequate, and I will pledge to you that we will certainly do that."
- FEMA head Michael Brown, at his confirmation hearings.


Brad
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104 posted 2005-09-10 10:21 PM


Okay Ali,

What do you find fault with in the current administration?


Local Rebel
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105 posted 2005-09-10 10:46 PM


Ok Mike..

Mike said;
quote:

I would be very interested in seeing any comments by Bush or the White House politicos which villified or insulted or criticized either Blanco or Nagin from the beginning...or whenever....I haven't found any.



This is the White House not playing the 'blame game'.

In his weekly radio address last Saturday the President himself put the blame on Blanco and Nagin when he said;

quote:

The magnitude of the crisis "has created tremendous problems that have strained state and local capabilities," he said. "The result is that many of our citizens simply are not getting the help they need, especially in New Orleans. And that is unacceptable."



Chertoff said;
quote:

In a Washington briefing, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said one reason federal assets were not used more quickly was "because our constitutional system really places the primary authority in each state with the governor."



Brown said;
quote:

"the mayor can order an evacuation and try to evacuate the city, but if the mayor does not have the resources to get the poor, elderly, the disabled, those who cannot, out, or if he does not even have police capacity to enforce the mandatory evacuation, to make people leave, then you end up with the kind of situation we have right now in New Orleans."



The response from NOLA;

quote:

New Orleans City Council President Oliver Thomas acknowledged that the city was surprised by the number of refugees left behind, but he said FEMA should have been prepared to assist.
"Everybody shares the blame here," said Thomas. "But when you talk about the mightiest government in the world, that's a ludicrous and lame excuse. You're FEMA, and you're the big dog. And you weren't prepared either."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/03/AR2005090301680_pf.html

that's about all I have time for right now

Cat -- I have addressed the issue of Brown's (2-not 3) year tenure as director and am correctly crediting Jeb, as I found out today, Scarborough confirms.


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106 posted 2005-09-10 10:49 PM


So as not to hijack this thread, I sent my response via email, Brad.

*nod* I do agree in part this time, Reb, about Brown's reaction time.  Though there were prepositioned items and personnel, they proved to be inadequate given the nature of the storm and aftermath, and the nature of damage sustained to those items and personnel.  I do think on this one, Brown was caught offguard and fell back onto the beaurocratic 'check all the proper boxes' syndrome, instead of taking the bull by the horns like he did in prior year hurricanes.  He was overwhelmed, Governor Blanco was overwhelmed, Mayor Navin was overwhelmed.  It's been a very long time since any major city was directly impacted by a storm of this magnitude, much less such a metropolitan multi-state area.  I really don't think there's been several million displaced and evacuated citizens from a hurricane before with not much left to return to, except for memories.  Several thousand?  Yes.  Tens of thousands?  Yes.  Hundreds of thousands?  Rarely.  Several million?  In the USA?  Due to population growth and expansion, that has to be a first.

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107 posted 2005-09-10 10:50 PM


LOL! Brad, you sound like one the reporters that constantly ask Bush.."Mr. President, what do you think is your biggest mistake?" - "Mr. President, what do you feel you have done you would like to change?" - "Mr. President, what is your saddest regret?" The old 'get them to defend themselves' routine.

I'll play. Bush has done many things I would like to have seen done differently, including stem cell research and the immigrations policies......

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108 posted 2005-09-10 10:52 PM


Should add quickly that the turnaround of the rescue effort directly correlates to the assignment of Vc Adm. Allen last Monday -- even though it wasn't officially made a headline until Friday
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/06/AR2005090601677.html

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109 posted 2005-09-10 10:53 PM


LR, you are calling those examples villifications and name-calling insults, comparable to the Democratic comments aimed at Bush???

In the words of the effervescent John McEnroe... YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS!!!

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110 posted 2005-09-10 11:01 PM


no... I didn't say anything about name-calling or insults..

I said

"But you have Nagin and Blanco being villified by the poliicos in the White House which started immediately -- and of course they are being blasted relentlessly by talk radio."

In every one of those comments above the White House is trying to play the blame game -- show me where in any of those comments those gentlemen take any responsibility for their lack of action?

Where do they place the problem?

That's called blame.

This is like Karl Rove saying he didn't use Valerie Plame's name Mike -- all he did was say 'his wife' -- YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING.

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111 posted 2005-09-10 11:13 PM


The magnitude of the crisis "has created tremendous problems that have strained state and local capabilities

    one reason federal assets were not used more quickly was "because our constitutional system really places the primary authority in each state with the governor."

if the mayor does not have the resources to get the poor, elderly, the disabled, those who cannot, out, or if he does not even have police capacity to enforce the mandatory evacuation,


The first comment blames the magnitude of the crisis.

The second blames our constitutional system.

The third blames the lack of resources for the mayor.

in none of those comments was blame directed at a specific individual, nor was none named.

I say again, if those examples are what you find comparable to the slurs against Bush...if those comments are what you call villification....then I feel you come up short.

Vilification.....To make vicious and defamatory statements about.

Please point out the viciousness toward Blanco or Nagin in those comments...

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112 posted 2005-09-10 11:14 PM


Off Topic:  Until Novak printed and ran a story that was supposedly 'off the record', I had no idea who took Plame for a spouse, since at the time the husband and wife did not share the same last name.  Come to think of it, I don't think they do even now.  'Off the record' used to mean something in the media, just like honor, honesty and integrity used to mean something in the media.  Nowadays, they's all scarce, if even existant.
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113 posted 2005-09-10 11:23 PM


The fact is, which I feel certain you will not concur with, that The White House has maintained class and dignity throughout this event. There is certainly enough information to hang both Blanco and Nagin out to dry and yet they have not used it, leaving the name-calling and accusatory ravings to the Democrats, who are more than willing to engage in those activities. Don't think the American people don't recognize this. They do...a small fact that the Democrats have not realized for 5 years and they continue wondering why they lose ground....
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114 posted 2005-09-11 01:29 AM


Mike, I would say that was fairly standard protocol, almost regardless of which party occupies the White House. When you're standing on the top of the hill, you simply don't have to push as hard to keep others at the bottom.

Nonetheless, I, for one, certainly appreciate the Administration showing a little more restraint than its opposition might be showing at times. I would be considerably more impressed, however, if they actually shouldered some responsibility instead of blaming "the magnitude of the crisis," "our constitutional system," and "the lack of resources for the mayor." Even your interpretation still has them pointing fingers everywhere but at themselves.

What I would really appreciate is more honesty and less spin, on both sides of the fence.

I find it interesting, and perhaps telling, that our thread in the Alley on the problems of Katrina has now taken a backseat to this thread. The earlier thread now has fewer posts than this one, and none have been added in the past few days. Exploring the problems and possible solutions seems to be less important than assigning the blame, or more accurately, spreading the blame, and perhaps less exciting than the constant games of one-upmanship (or, one-downmanship as the case may be).

Republicans, Democrats, left, right, liberals, conservatives. The labels seem to have long since replaced the issues, with more emphasis on the competition of the game instead of the goals either side might hope to win. Does it really matter what one politician has to say about another politician? Call me crazy, but I think what they DO seems a lot more important than what they say. One side can't very well vilify the other when neither side can be believed.

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115 posted 2005-09-11 02:53 AM


quote:

What I would really appreciate is more honesty and less spin, on both sides of the fence.



adamantly, unequivically, expressly agree..

No Mike, I don't see the administration doing things like calling Blanco or Nagin racists... it would be a pretty silly thing to do.

And you're welcome to favor the interpretation of those comments any way you like.  

But, you know I hear Chertoff blaming the victims, I hear the talk show surrogates -- you know it's just disgusting.  And I'm not going to get into a protracted run on the word 'villify'.  We both know what the spin doctors do.

Ron... amazingly -- Chertoff does assume responsibility for something -- at least on his webpage -- apparently somebody forgot to change it before the storm hit.
http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/theme_home2.jsp

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116 posted 2005-09-11 03:01 AM


Ron, I absolutely agree with you, and admit that I myself have played a great role in what you are speaking of; encouraging more debate than dialogue, wearing more of the black hat than the yellow hat.

I believe, understandably, we are all still in the process of calming down to relative normalcy here (if such a thing ever really existed) as we have all been emotionally moved by this historic, devastating storm, which too many of the pictures just leave you speechless, words can't make justice of all that has happened. We all are understandably trying to find closure within all this, not just the victims, but all of us who are seeking answers and plagued by more and more new questions that seem to weigh us down.

You're absolutely correct in pointing out that this thread has out-paced the original "Katrina" thread, which undoubtedly does tell us something, it does send a message. (Of course some of this same rhetoric was being voiced out in the "Katrina" thread as well)

I suppose it's truly no surprise why here debate makes more of a mood than dialogue; that's just what the atmosphere of The Alley has always appeared to me as. I believe if we had a Katrina thread in the Piptalk Lounge you're most likely to have a whole different atmosphere and result. Nevertheless, though I admit I'm been quite outspoken in this thread, you do notice I make an effort at the end of every several posts I make to let a silver lining break through, say about some of the good that is happening, like I have about discussing these matters together, the most absolute and inspiring warmth of the American public and Congress passing the near $52 billion. In a place like The Alley, yes, I probably argue more about what's wrong with the picture than what's right, but I strive to seek balance, and in other forums you'll see me in a different mood.

But I thank you very much, Ron, for taking the moment to share this feeling, this concern in your heart, which I absolutely agree with and believe we all certainly do, and I believe in making the effort to find solutions doesn't necessarily have to happen here in this very thread, but we all must take this to heart crucially to open up in a dialogue setting and form this sort of discussion in any form.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Brad
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117 posted 2005-09-11 04:05 AM


I'm kind of curious. Why can't we quote Bush attack dogs?

You know, Rush, Hannity, Gibson, Cavuto, O'Reilly etc.

Sure, you can argue that they aren't part of the government, you can say that they don't represent policy, but is there anybody here that doesn't think they aid the administration?

And contribute to the polarization and divisiveness of the country?

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118 posted 2005-09-11 06:45 AM


Exploring the problems and possible solutions seems to be less important than assigning the blame, or more accurately, spreading the blame, and perhaps less exciting than the constant games of one-upmanship (or, one-downmanship as the case may be).


Unfortunately, Ron, that makes the Alley a pretty good reflection of reality. The amount of space given to finger-pointing and blame-laying in the newspapers and on network news has been there since the beginning and grows every day. Probably one of the reasons of that is the grisly sights we saw immediately after the hurricane hit. We saw horrific footage of bodies in the water, people in squalor in the Superdome, stories of a rape and snipers and people got enraged, screaming, "How could this happen in America?" and looked to place blame. Democrats recognized this and immediately jumped on the opportunity to exploit that anger to their advantage. Republican milque-toast comments like the ones quoted above were more in RESPONSE to accusations than offered opinions. Bush has continously said during this time that the priority here is dealing with the tragedy and told congress directly to keep the politics out of it, that they would have plenty of time later for political attacks. Obviously, that hasn't come to pass. I believe the White House is acting the way you state should be done. If you weigh the negativity out there, I think you will find the scales tipped heavily on the left side.

I, too, would like to see both sides accept their share of the blame for what went wrong. There is certainly plenty of it to go around. I'm not holding my breath...we are talking politicians here.

Brad...they are not part of the government. I don't recall any of them being given seats of honor next to a past president at the Republican National Convention, either.

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119 posted 2005-09-11 03:42 PM


"Unfortunately, Ron, that makes the Alley a pretty good reflection of reality. The amount of space given to finger-pointing and blame-laying in the newspapers and on network news has been there since the beginning and grows every day. Probably one of the reasons of that is the grisly sights we saw immediately after the hurricane hit. We saw horrific footage of bodies in the water, people in squalor in the Superdome, stories of a rape and snipers and people got enraged, screaming, "How could this happen in America?" and looked to place blame. Democrats recognized this and immediately jumped on the opportunity to exploit that anger to their advantage. Republican milque-toast comments like the ones quoted above were more in RESPONSE to accusations than offered opinions. Bush has continously said during this time that the priority here is dealing with the tragedy and told congress directly to keep the politics out of it, that they would have plenty of time later for political attacks. Obviously, that hasn't come to pass. I believe the White House is acting the way you state should be done. If you weigh the negativity out there, I think you will find the scales tipped heavily on the left side."

I think it may be important to share how I first made a presence in this particular forum.

As you all are well aware, I was very shy when I first joined this site coming on five years now, in December of 2000. In fact I was so shy I was considering multiple times before to register but didn't have the courage to do so. Finally I did because I saw people who I became accustomed to in the poetry world, from a site called Mutington's Meadow, cross-over there, and so I felt comfort they were there to acquaint me with the community so I finally joined.

I went through several stages of doubt and sometimes a lack of confidence that I was being accepted here, and just as I have grown through adolescence I have grown here. There finally came the time I was motivated to skip from forum to forum...except one...here.

I would peak in this forum time and time again and I was just very sensitive. There was always argument here, and I know that we are all civilized and of wonderful heart but still I couldn't help but feel it echo like a bell tolled against my head and it almost made it sound like bitter argument sometimes. I was already quite opinionated, not so much politically but socially, and wanted to express myself, but I shyed away from The Alley because I felt small I guess.

Finally, the first post I ever made here was less than a year ago, last October, which was about Bush asking for even more money for the war in Iraq, and my obvious outrage of it. It was after Bush declared war on Iraq that became the catalyst for getting out in the public and having my voice heard, but it wasn't until a year and a half later that having my voice heard in The Alley crossed my mind and finally I knew I couldn't bear to remain silent so...I posted here.

The bottom line here is, I was shy at first being here because the atmosphere struck me as dingy, darker, competitive. I admit this is absolutely my least liked forum of all the site, but nonetheless the reason I keep coming back is so I can provide the other side of the story, kind of personify it I suppose, and there's few who regularly take part in the discussions here. If anything, we're more or less more like the poetic McLaughlin Group and less like a poetic United Nations student assembly club.

***

***

***

Anyway, to touch on your latest point, I do very much disagree with you that the Democrats have "exploited" the anger and that Bush and the administration are merely standing on the sidelines not playing politics here.

There was a point made earlier that I absolutely agree with...Everything a politician does is political.

The Bush administration just aren't practicing what they have preached. Immediately after they claim they don't want to have nothing to do with the blame game, Karl Rove and Dan Bartlett are doing just the opposite in putting all the blame on local and state officials and claiming absolute denial of the federal government having any folly in this. You may have heard "sources close to the White House" just saying the "woefully inadequate response," was the fault of "bureaucratic obstacles from state and local officials." Since Bush's speech at the Rose Garden, Bush has been playing this card too. Last Saturday, Bush himself said, "The magnitude of responding to a crisis over a disaster area that is larger than the size of Great Britain has created tremendous problems that have strained state and local capabilities. The result is that many of our citizens simply are not getting the help they need."

The Bush administration is being incredibly political in trying to keep an independent investigation from forming, while they want a much more unilateralized investigation.

Bush's general disdain of government is political all in itself. The FEMA agency, the whole administration in general, is filled with those who have loyalty to Bush and have little or no background in emergency management. I don't see what qualifications ever got him the job in the first place, perhaps it is because he is related to Allbaugh, who was a buddy of his and the first FEMA director he appointed, and now lobbies for Halliburton as well. Anyway, you can likely expect Brown to receive a Presidential Medal soon regardless.

I really can't help but feel sorry for the GOP right now. The main reason the party has been suffering such a backlash lately is because they support Bush. Bush is the central problem of the party right now, and now as his approval ratings are falling below the 40% mark, I believe we're going to see an increased isolationism of Republicans from Bush and his already soggy political capital will dampen worse. This party just is failing to govern right now because they have backed strongly someone who continues to purposely polarize this nation further and doesn't care whatsoever about the concerns of others outside his inner circles.

As I said before, I find the Democrats are making more of an effort for the positive in giving the victims of Katrina easier access to the basic qualities of life that will begin to help get them back on their feet. Without a doubt they are very much playing hard politics here, but I find them to have more of a positive force right now than this administration, and many Republicans who are following through with Bush again.

I really don't believe it's even been the Democrats who have influenced the shift in public opinion, where so many of them just aren't making any effort to challenge Bush directly. I believe most people are just finding it out for themselves, many's opinions have changed because they are feeling and recognizing the incompetence and greed of this administration in contrast to earlier administrations. Many moderate voices are probably thinking to themselves, "Yes, the Clinton era may have been sour, but this is just ridiculous!". They are figuring out that Bush has no plan for victory in Iraq, they are figuring out that he is no voice of consensus and is nothing but a dividing figure, and they witnessed his lack of leadership during Katrina. If anyone's winning here, it's the people, not the Democrats.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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120 posted 2005-09-11 05:22 PM


Thank you for your thoughts, Noah. i would not expect you to feel any other way....
Mistletoe Angel
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121 posted 2005-09-12 06:37 PM


Here we go, another account of denial and lies:
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001   096870

*******

Q Did they misinform you when you said that no one anticipated the breach of the levees?

THE PRESIDENT: No, what I was referring to is this. When that storm came by, a lot of people said we dodged a bullet. When that storm came through at first, people said, whew. There was a sense of relaxation, and that's what I was referring to. And I, myself, thought we had dodged a bullet. You know why? Because I was listening to people, probably over the airways, say, the bullet has been dodged. And that was what I was referring to.

Of course, there were plans in case the levee had been breached. There was a sense of relaxation in the moment, a critical moment. And thank you for giving me a chance to clarify that."

*******

So he expects me to believe that when...:

***

1) http://www.sptimes.com/2005/08/30/State/For_forecasting_chief.shtml

...the National Hurricane Center's Director called Bush that Sunday about the storm making landfall just east of New Orleans...

2) http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times   -Picayune/archives/2005_08.html#074667

...water was already flowing over the levees before Katrina hit the coast at 6:30 A.M, then failed by 3 A.M on Monday, and finally...

3)

***

Link to HUGE graphic

...all the newspaper headlines begged to differ with him (and I do understand that Bush admitted before he doesn't read the papers anyway)?

It comes to no surprise why he would lie about this just as he continues to lie about Iraq. There is always something wrong with the picture when our elected leader has a "sense of relaxation" long after the levees failed, long after the headlines weep with devastation, virtually half a week after the storm settled.

It is just that sort of attitude that has damaged the people's faith in our government here for years to come.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa


[This message has been edited by Ron (09-12-2005 06:54 PM).]

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122 posted 2005-09-12 07:11 PM


Well, Noah, you have managed to get the word IRAQ in you comment again. That's seems to be incredibly important for you to do each time.

Yes, I have the impression that you consider all to be Bush's fault. Interestingly enough, that conclusion is losing ground..

Senator Mary Landrieu, D-LA on Fox News Sunday with Chris Wallace ......

Chris Wallace told his audience that while last week everyone seemed to blame the Bush administration, people's anger had begin to move to state and local officials after more facts about large scale incompetence had been shown.


Senator Landrieu said repeatedly that she would not criticize state and local officials at all because they did their job. She said repeatedly that everything from the first day on was solely the Bush administration's fault. At one point of her long diatribe as sweat could be seen on her forehead, Chris Wallace said, "this works better when I ask questions."

When Wallace asked her about the hundreds of busses in New Orleans that could have been used to transport the poor, she retorted that they could not since they were flooded. Wallace correctly pointed out that the busses did not flood until Tuesday afternoon, almost 60 hours after Mayor Nagin ordered a mandatory evacuation.

When asked about the state government, namely Blanco, keeping the Red Cross and Salvation Army out on Tuesday and not ordering the National Guard in until Wednesday, Senator Landrieu blamed Bush. Her idiotic words would be funny if this story was only a work of fiction.

When Wallace confronted Landrieu about hundreds of millions of dollars that should have gone to levee projects but were diverted by her to other pork barrel projects, she said she would "never apologize" for supporting the people of her state.

When Wallace correctly pointed out that the Bush administration had given more to levee projects that the Clinton administration had, Landrieu was out of answers and blamed the recession.

Today I listened to a radio speech she gave stating that the problem was with the city workers, not Mayor Nagin, because it is hard to get city employees to respond on a sunny day, much less one with a hurricance coming, and that the mayor had little help. What a comment!! If a Republican congressman were to say that and a check revealed that the majority of city workers were black (as I feel sure in N.O they were) there would be screams of outrage and racism from every Democrat in the country. So Blanco was ok, Nagin was ok....it's those darn hourly workers that didn't show up which caused all the problems.....now I understand.

Governor Blanco is now being asked why the Loussiana National Guard refused to let the Red Cross deliver supplies to the Superdome, after that bit of information came out on t he Red cross website. Their comment was:

* The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city.
    * Acess to New Orleans is controlled by the National Guard and local authorities and while we are in constant contact with them, we simply cannot enter New Orleans against their orders.

http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_682_4524,00.html#4524

...Governor Blanco also came out with this brilliant statement..

On the news this morning Gov. Blanco said that although Mayor Nagin had ordered a mandatory evacuation of NO , the state was not ordering it and that it was not to occur. She said that she wants to wait until the environmental study is done to determine if it is unsafe for people to be living in water with feces and decomposing dead bodies.

Y'all better keep blaming Bush for everything because you certainly need a strong diversion.....and quick!


Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea
123 posted 2005-09-12 08:42 PM


Mike,

Need a link for that last statement, don't ya know?

What can we say about all this?

Believe in everything a politician says, believe it with a religious fervor, until, of course, you actually expect them to act on it.

Then, it's the other guy's fault.


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124 posted 2005-09-12 09:38 PM


Brad, the home page is College Confidential, a college website with endorsements from the NY Times and the Christian Science Monitor.
http://www.collegeconfidential.com/

That quote in question comes on a discussion board, second comment from the bottom..
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?s=ce691aa63508027cb262f5e72d928e81&p=1214963#post1214963

Yes, it is a discussion board and an individual reporting it but, if you read the entries on that page, you will see that the feeling of the board is definitely anti-Bush and anti-FEMA, so it is not a prejudiced site in favor of Bush - reasonable for a college website.

Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea
125 posted 2005-09-12 09:41 PM


Thanks, Mike.
Mistletoe Angel
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126 posted 2005-09-12 10:04 PM


Michael, there are four kinds of blamers here:

*******

1) The no-blamers.

2) The state/local only blamers

3) The Bush/federal government only blamers

4) The "gang-bangers" (all governments)

*******

I am one of the "gang-bangers". I am most critical of Bush and the federal government here, but allow me to re-illustrate a point I've already made several times before.

Honestly, I don't know enough about Nagin's history as mayor, and the full history of decisions he's made regarding levee management and hurricane preparation. Most polled have admitted that themselves.

What I do know about Nagin, however, is the following.

I know that Nagin has about as little experience in public service and disaster management as Michael Brown did before being elected mayor. I know that on Sunday, August 28th that morning, he declared a mandatory evacuation and warned us it would be an "unprecedented event". The following day (Monday, August 29) Nagin reported that water was beginning to flow over the levee, and then it wasn't until that Thursday that Nagin declared a "desperate S.O.S" to the federal government.

That last part is what I find most troubling about Nagin, and by the looks of it inexcusable to my eyes and ears. I am most critical of him and his leadership credentials as well, and I would like to see an independent investigation scrape all the dirt under his fingernails and of any other local and state officials that must be examined.

*

As for Blanco, I believe she is to be blamed as well, but not for what the mass media is accusing her of right now, a lie that she never declared a state of emergency in Louisiana, which she clearly did on Friday, August 26.

What Blanco should be blamed for (which Bush shares blame here as well) is failing to contact/communicate with the federal government for two days after earlier asking for help. That was most irresponsible on her part, and a true governor would keep continuously trying to get contact, especially when peoples lives are at stake.

*

Make no mistake about it. I believe blame should be distributed on all levels of the government.

What is true is that I especially am critical of Bsuh because in the end, it's the president who governs ALL, it's the president who protects the people, it's the president who calls the National Guard and mobilizes FEMA officials and other forces, etc.

He failed to play his role, and so too much damage has been done here.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea
127 posted 2005-09-13 07:48 AM


Ali,

In case your interested, here's my e-mail address:

bradmattox@netscape.net

Mistletoe Angel
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128 posted 2005-09-13 01:36 PM


Bush: "I take responsibility!"
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/13/katrina.washington/index.html

Good, it's good to hear him admitting it and assuming responsibility, that's really what I've been waiting to hear. It is always the first step to renewal.

I hope Bush takes to heart now the grave need of an independent investigation to find out what went wrong at each level of government, but with that said, what'd you say we all get to work?



Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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129 posted 2005-09-13 02:51 PM


...and I have little doubt that now Nagin and Blanco will also come out publicly assuming responsibility also....right, Noah?
Mistletoe Angel
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130 posted 2005-09-13 05:04 PM




As they should, my friend, as they should!



Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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