How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 The Alley
 Finger Pointing......   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  6  ]
 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Finger Pointing......

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Mistletoe Angel
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 5 Tours
Member Empyrean
since 12-17-2000
Posts 34089
City of Roses


50 posted 09-08-2005 07:37 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

"So the mayor, who could have saves thousands more, didn't - the governor, who could have mobilized the national guard and then accepted Washington's offer to assume control, didn't.....and everything is Bush's fault. Guess what? it's not flying. In the USA Today poll yesterday only 13% of the people polled said they blamed Bush. Undoubtedly the Democrats are furious and we can expect to see another one of their all-out offenses, which will turn more people off. Make sure all safety belts are fastened for this one.........

*****
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/08/opinion/polls/main824591.shtml

*

http://zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1020

*

I believe you have forgotten two other polls released today that both show a considerable majority disapproving of Bush's handling of this natural disaster.

Indeed is true there is quite a mixed opinion on who's to blame here in general, with more actually saying there's no one to blame here (38%) than all other groups combined. I find another striking statistic about that particular poll you mentioned is when you combine Bush's and the federal agencies' numbers together, you get a roughly 31% figure, still lower than the "no-blame" result and higher than the state-local authorities result.

*****

Without a doubt, the Katrina tragedy is going to be poisoned with politics, probably resonating through the rest of Bush's second term, and I can fully understand why it'll be because of the full range of issues that the response of this tragedy has on the people affected, the nations trust in our government, and our own national security.

This triad has frequently molded itself in much of the cultural dialogue and debate we've had within the past four years since 9/11, especially on counter-terrorism motives.

In terms of the former, Bush won over many following 9/11 because he made an effort to reach out. He responded genuinely to the NYC tragedy and exhibited true leadership, and he was able to persuade many at first that those responsible for the terror must be brought to justice, because he appeared human, genuine in how he stood at Ground Zero in the weeks immediately following 9/11 and were convinced he's infuse that same spirit and conscience of leadership into the mission.

Contrast that to the sluggish response this time around. Tens of thousands have been affected by this tragedy, either by loss or poverty, in fact the entire nation has been affected by this tragedy, both emotionally, spiritually and economically. And when you have officials on all the levels of government, including our own elected president, asleep at the desk, it strikes them as just not caring, unsympathetic. You heard the many on the streets crying in anger, "What's taking so long!", all decrying Bush and the government's irresponsibility on all levels. Many truly feel like they're being left to die literally, and that's how I feel too.

Looking at the middle issue, Bush gained the trust of a vast majority of the American people (90% at one point) following 9/11 because Republicans knew he cared, Democrats knew he cared, I knew he cared. All until he exploited this tragedy as an excuse to take us into a senseless war, who continues to exploit it again and again through a parade of lies, window-dressing and clumsy excuses and changing of the story. Because he betrayed and abused the trust of many, he's paid the political price for it, with his former approval rating literally being sliced in half.

Despite the downward trend in his credibility rating, his perception of him being an honest man, and approval of his job performance, Bush still maintained high marks in trust, and satisfaction in how's he handling the war on terrorism in general. But with his weak response to Katrina, with the weak response of all the political establishment in general, even the trust factor is eroding. Because of the incompetence, Bush and the government have crippled much of the trust of the American public in their own government, which is just shameful beyond all means.

Finally, many elected Bush because, being relentlessly aggressive on foreign policy, he  got a majority to believe he had the focus and determination to keep America safe. His campaign spent millions making the opposition look weak and soft on wanting to stop terrorism and so Bush seemed to many like the only viable candidate on defense.

But now, many just feel completely isolated, betrayed by his response. Most saw how seemingly everyone in the government was asleep and thinking, "How the heck can this happen in America, of all places?". "How can we possibly believe Bush and the government can defend us against the next terrorist attack, possibly a biological or nuclear attack, if nothing changes now?".

*****

I absolutely believe this is and should be a political issue by all means.

And you're absolutely correct, Balladeer, that all seat belts should be fastened here, because it looks like in terms of the government at large, everyone will be taking a wild ride.

And if you seriously believe the Democrats have been all-out offensive lately, believe me, they can be far more aggressive than they have been.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/PollVault/story?id=1080163&page=1

Remember this most recent poll, where three-fourths of Americans believe the Democrats must be more aggressive on the war in Iraq, and Bush's policies in general. A strong majority WANT the Democrats to turn up the volume, which is what I have been crying for over two-and-a-half years now for them to do, and they're still lost in the woods. The American people WANT the Democrats to be the opposition party, and I refuse to convert from an independent into a Democrat until they do just that.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
Juju
Member Elite
since 12-29-2003
Posts 3353
In your dreams


51 posted 09-08-2005 09:02 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

hah!

The president handled this badly.(Rolls eyes)  From a engineering standpoint Noah you are wrong.

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


52 posted 09-08-2005 09:07 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The American people WANT the Democrats to be the opposition party, and I refuse to convert from an independent into a Democrat until they do just that.


Noah, I don't believe you are qualified to speak for "the American people" or their wants, anymore than I am.

The Democrats have attacked before. They went after Bush's service record, Abu Grahb, Gitmo, Rathergate, flu shots....all failed miserably. It would be my guess that the anti-Bush group would not want the Democrats to attack more aggressively but in a more intelligent manner. Instead they rely in half-facts, innuendos, loud rhetoric, treating the public like they are idiots and, when it all blows up in their faces Bush is stronger. This time will be no different. They will try to ignore or cover-up the actions and inactions of the Democratic mayor and governor and throw it all on Bush and his FEMA appointee. It will fail again......
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


53 posted 09-08-2005 09:11 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I think you guys better do a little more looking around -- you'll see plenty of Bush assault coming from the right guard too.  It isn't the left only.

Juju -- please tell me what engineering methodology you're using to give the president good grades on his performance?

Performance against specification?
Performance against schedule?
Performance against budget?

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


54 posted 09-08-2005 09:48 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Oh, this is getting really hard:

quote:
They will try to ignore or cover-up the actions and inactions of the Democratic mayor and governor and throw it all on Bush and his FEMA appointee. It will fail again......


At least here, the only thing I want to do is try to show what the DHS promised it would do, and what it didn't do. That must include criticism of local, state, and federal goverment (see Juju's thread).  

I don't think I'm spinning that and I don't want Bush damaged anymore than he already is. I want him to be the president for the next three years.

Why?

Dick Cheney.

Ringo
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 02-20-2003
Posts 3696
Saluting with misty eyes


55 posted 09-08-2005 09:52 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

I absolutely believe this is and should be a political issue by all means.

Noah, Noah, Noah... my dear friend, you have just lost my support for your thoughts in this matter. I firmly believe that everyone has the right to have their own thoughts and opinions about almost eveything, however when you advocate making the death and destruction of thousands of humans, 10s of thousands of animals, and countless millions (perhaps billions) in damage a politically motivated argument, then you have completely lost my support.
Do I think that something needs to be figured out and done to ensure this happens NEVER again? ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!!!! Do I think that this should be sand tabled (played out in classrooms and in planning sessions) for ever until it is gotten right at least a zillion times??? Without a doubt. Do I think mistakes were made? WITHOUT A DOUBT. Do I think it needs to be politicized??? Yeah, right
All that does is solve nothing and belittle the deaths of so many people.

When all is said
All is done
Still I live
And carry on-
Quiet Riot

Juju
Member Elite
since 12-29-2003
Posts 3353
In your dreams


56 posted 09-08-2005 11:21 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Now see I agreee with you a little more brad. I didn't want to say that the local government was soley responcible, but merely wanted to point out the horrible mistakes made by the local/State.  reading all of these threads about catrina made me almost laugh because it seemed that the things that could have been controlled were seveerly neglected.

Here is LR'S answere.  I used the term engineering, because all of its terms applied. From mechanical to planing an emergancy plan.  You see this catastrifee is the greatest engineering blunder (MY opinion) in US history.  Katrina was from nature.  but the after math became quite overwelmingly worse from one of the leveies getting a hole.  Now what caused the hole was the lake became to high and nothing was done about it, even though it was known of the consequences if a hole was to be created.  They thought the levey would hold.  But they were wrong.  Even worse when a hole was created there was no action done to lessen what had happened.  See my post for the other aspects.  I plan on getting some more to add to that list to.      

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

Juju
Member Elite
since 12-29-2003
Posts 3353
In your dreams


57 posted 09-08-2005 11:34 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

OH shoot I forgot to answere your question.

I refuse to blame the president for all of this. how was he to know the levey was to break.  Was he to cross the lines of presidential power over congress? There are consequences to that to you know.  

The only responcibility I will place on him is why he couldn't be like any other politition and say he was respecting states right to refuse imediate action on this disater(hint of humor with that)  Ok enough with the jokes. Like over half of my posts have had sarcasm and jokes.

over all I also agree with brad that new orleans must be the great start of a checks and balences between the state and the fedral government. I think Hillary clinton is calling an investigation on bush and the organization. (Not again) I think Hillary that is a wonderful idea, but lets not forget or discriminate against any one.  You wouldn't want to start you presidential election like that would you. (I had a coment to add but I will refrain. Because I am a very good girl)

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

ice
Member Elite
since 05-17-2003
Posts 3059
Pennsylvania


58 posted 09-09-2005 08:15 AM       View Profile for ice   Email ice   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ice

Noah
"I absolutely believe this is and should be a political issue by all means."

Ringo
"when you advocate making the death and destruction of thousands of humans, 10s of thousands of animals, and countless millions (perhaps billions) in damage a politically motivated argument, then you have completely lost my support."

OK, Ringo, what you said to Noah is understandable, and probably correct....saying that, I am
asking you ....How do you suggest that Noah motivate his argument, at who or what, should he throw his slings and arrows? Simply criticizing him for his method does not help him...I am at a loss to advise him.

I don't believe that Noah is attacking the victims of this disaster, I believe he is maddened by the results of foot dragging on the part of  government.

It is obvious that he needs to vent his frustrations... how do you believe he should express them? It seems that he is weak in ability to chose other ways to get his point across...Perhaps Noah could switch from the mode of war that is obvious between himself and  administration policy,  to a more diplomatic way of persuasion....But that has been proven futile in matters such as these, historically...and also looked on as a sign of weakness by his opponents...

Considering his federal adversaries have all the power that money can buy, influence and a staff of adroit pitchmen that can make a Corvair look like a Bently.. I am at a personal loss to advise him on how to act other than he is at this time...

Who or what do you suggest he attack, if not policy? (politics)

--------------ice
      ><>­
LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


59 posted 09-09-2005 09:48 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Hey Ringo & Deer

Good Morning, thanks for taking the time to wipe an ol gal’s forehead when she’s speaking hysterically and emotionally…: grin: as you know, some of us women do.  

First let me say, as well as it may seem, like I’m pointing fingers, and I am…what I’m trying to reiterate is…our government officials are not prepared in the event of a terrorist attack/natural disaster…we need leaders who are not afraid to make decisions in certain extreme cases and break the laws if, it comes to life and death.   Ringo, we are not talking about a lie here under oath, two completely different entities which can hardly be compared…

The other point I’ve tried to make is, Honestly, the guilty parties in this disaster who drug their feet, know who they are, and I believe they will live with the consequences of their wrong doings the rest of their lives…unfortunately and sadly.

I feel bad for them, I’m not asking for a lynching mob…what I’m trying to point out, and have been trying to suggest, is, that there are no Plans in Place…and we’ve got to, for once in our lives, learn from history.  

We are no safer now…then we were before 911…and presently Homeland Security is a joke…(which is another thread/subject) but this disaster proves my point….these men are not experienced enough for these positions.  

We need men like Swartzcoff and Powell who are well trained to effectively run Homeland Security or any search & rescue operation, and Ringo, you being in search and rescue, know what I’m trying to describe, not doing a very good job at it, I might add.  

Yes, I am advocating the President because he is our land’s leader…like I stated before, sometimes leaders need to make unpopular decisions….I’m still watching both news stations and weather channel for information…candidly, I “didn’t” know that the President phoned the mayor twice, and perhaps in anger, frustration, fear, anxiety and sadness, etc., I’m lashing out unfairly….yes, I can absolutely say I am…but, that doesn’t mean, it releases him (the President) from responsibility.  No one moved or deployed until the fourth day, Ringo, and I don’t and can’t buy your explanation for that…when others were already in there.  Those people needed help fast, and every second counted.

By the way, I didn’t vote for Bush…I just used “we” so as not to incriminate those that did   while trying to make a point, which is…it is human nature to defend those we love or vote for even if they are wrong or have displayed unacceptable behavior.  Which I believe is one of American’s weaknesses and fast becoming our culture.   And to, perhaps why we are so divided by extreme lefts and rights…we all know, both sides have made bad decisions, yet we defend them regardless?

You’ve also made some very good points about leadership and laws involving search and rescue…but…in a case of life and death…must a line be drawn?  And in this case, wasn’t it time to take over, since everyone was dragging their feet, except the local rescue teams, which did find a way in there…along with a couple who went down to help the 2nd day?

I also understand your search and rescue tactics…clearly put and perhaps more wise then my mere idea of what we should have done…perhaps I watch way to many Tom Clancy movies?  And please know, I’m not being sarcastic, but honest.

In answer to your question about 9/11…I received a call…a panicked woman’s voice screamed,  “Lee J.  One of the towers was struck by a plane!”…and yes, I was in shock…asking her, are you sure, what’s happening?  Then she said, Oh my God, the other tower was just hit by another plane…Immediately I said, “I gotta go, I’ll call you back…went to my team and said, “The twin towers have both been hit by 2 separate air planes…I think we all better go down to the conf room and get the news, as, this could be a terrorist attack.  Ringo, I would bet, I didn’t delay as long as our commander in chief did that day.

I’d like to see this country choose leaders based on a personality that is able to act and work under extreme pressure, as well, as issues.  If our commander in chief is weak, “and he is”, so will the people he chooses be.  It’s a job description which could mean the difference between life and death. yes? Isn’t it about Preparedness?  Why would you put a man in charge who has no experience in emergency response…Gosh Ringo, knowing your credentials, I would feel a lot safer with you in charge, then Brownie, or that Mayor.  Yanno?  

We need to improve public warning capabilities, train emergency managers and first responders…increase public knowledge, study emergency response options and operations, along with evacuations…teach those leaders to utilize any equipment necessary to get people out or in the effected areas, if it means, hot wiring a vehicle; to better protect the safety of the residents, then so be it. and Ringo, in the case of life or death, that’s what I would do, and deal with a criminal case against me later..…I mean, Ringo, you cannot deny, these guys didn’t know what they were doing? They didn’t.  And Bush is the commander in chief, he should have taken over, and intervened, not 4 days later, but immediately when he saw the uncertainties.  

While working Construction for 12 years of my life, I didn’t work for Penn Dot directly, I worked for private construction companies, who Penn Dot subcontracted road building/resurfacing to; so we were mobile only during the summer months…unless we had mild winters.  I worked in the areas of 940/80 and 3 sections of I-78.

If I have offended anyone, I apologize.  Am I being hard on Bush, yes, I am, and there are others in command that need to listen up and take notice.  I know a lot of you gals feel, I should let this go, and look at the good things that are being done, and I have, and personally have thanked God for such miracles as I’ve seen.  

If I let this go, you know the old saying, Time heals all wounds…and it does, and I so want to help people understand…that one can never be to prepared.  

I took this whole thing very personal…but I just couldn’t believe my eyes, as to what was happening in the way of search and rescue, which is a life saving vocation or mission…and the decision to close bases, is a very bad decision to make.  

If I left this go, then I’d be turning my back on all those people who lost they’re lives, lost family members…I can’t….and thank God for this Forum!

These plans should be put into practice and practiced over and over again….Matter of fact, one good thing is…I heard on a radio station just yesterday, that New Jersey is going to review their search, rescue and evacuation plans…they should, as every community in this nation should…if only to be prepared to get to our neighbors to help.  

Also, when we rebuild these areas, I think we should take another look at forgetting about frame houses and mobile homes in these hurricane areas…there should be a code that homes must be rebuilt with concrete block, and when we replace lines, they should be put under ground…instead, we go back and perform the very same mistakes over and over again, which doesn’t save the tax payers a nickel.  I will say this again…I saw a beach front stone home, make it through hurricane Floyd, yes there was water damage, yes, the roof was lost, but, the entire rest of the structure was intact!

Let me say, I certainly know, I have faults and I’m surely do not have all the answers, and I thank you all for your patience and help in educating me in the things I don’t know about…

We’d better make certain those we vote in office are suitable for the position and if they’re not, they’ve got to be left go.  Listen, I work with bad leaders and see the ripple effects of such…This is today’s culture unfortunately, I see way to many people in take charge positions that shouldn’t be there, and if your leaders are weak, it will stagnate the entire team.  

I’m trying to make this an issue so it doesn’t slide by us again, like 911.

I’d also like to send along a personal apology to all of you who do not understand my purpose…as I do see and am very thankful for all the good that is coming out of this devastating disaster…but we American’s forget until it happens again…and again, and there is no full proof design that will protect every single human being…but, we could certainly save lives…and increase quality of life, by having people rightfully positions they have experience for.  

I feel like if I didn’t continue with this, I would be like the person who says, Ohhhh, it’s just to awful, I can’t watch the news…

we’re supposed to learn something from this, mainly to be informed, prepared and ready…and when 911 happened, I sat there and wondered/prayed we’d learn so much, so that the lives lost in that disaster wouldn’t be in vain.  We can always do better…but to, must be thankful for the lives we did save.  

I will always believe this 3 – 4 day delay was unacceptable…regardless of rules, laws, if I’m stuck in a tree, with 15 feet of raging water under me…I wanna know, Ringo, there is someone experienced as yourself, whose going to be able to think fast, improvise any tools necessary to jump in, focusing on saving a life, or at least do his/her best.  

We can do better, is what I’m trying to say, and we’re worth it, are we not?  Please do not feel a responsibility to defend something or someone who is inappropriate when it could mean someone’s life.  We choose people on popularity, status, issues, but who lack ability and true Grit.

I want John Wayne!!!! or at least Powell or Swartzcoff?  
Ringo
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 02-20-2003
Posts 3696
Saluting with misty eyes


60 posted 09-09-2005 12:06 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

LeeJ- You DON'T want me in charge... lol

I cannot speak for others, however I was not offended by your remarks. Hearing your viewpoint makes for a good discussion of the issues.

Ice- Until that post, I hvae supported Noah in EVERY sentance he ever uttered on the blue pages. I did not agree with him on... well, maybe one or two... However I didn't really agree with 98% of his viewpoints, and many times could not understand his thoughts. I have often wondered if they were, indeed, his thoughts, or if her were spouting the rhetoric of professors and friends that became his thoughts... yet I have always supported him. Until that statement, and I am guessing probably only that statement.
I have see Noah make comments and statements in objection to too many threads without politicizing them. Criticize the people who made the mistakes... politicize their actions, make it an issue that CONGRESS APPROVED the FEMA secretary appointment, politicize the fact that the mayor and the Governor refused the federal government's help, politicize that it took too long in your mind for the feds to step in... however making the dead of a natural disaster (many of whom would have died ANYWAY) is stepping over my personal approval rating.

When all is said
All is done
Still I live
And carry on-
Quiet Riot

Mistletoe Angel
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 5 Tours
Member Empyrean
since 12-17-2000
Posts 34089
City of Roses


61 posted 09-09-2005 01:45 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Ringo, I believe you either took my words deeply out of context in my first post on the third page of this thread, or misinterpreted them.

I specifically wrote this in the same thread:

"Without a doubt, the Katrina tragedy is going to be poisoned with politics, probably resonating through the rest of Bush's second term, and I can fully understand why it'll be because of the full range of issues that the response of this tragedy has on the people affected, the nations trust in our government, and our own national security."

Maybe the part that especially frustrated you was what I was imposing by "people affected". When I said, "I absolutely believe this is and should be a political issue by all means.", that's what I was referring to. The politics behind the people affected, the politics behind the eroding trust of the nation, the politics behind our national security. And when I was saying later on in the thread that "many truly feel like they're being left to die literally, and that's how I feel too.", I meant that certainly if you were there and no one was responding to your call, you'd certainly be desperate, you'd be angry, you'd be hollering many of the same questions many of the victims were, and you'd believe in their heart that the government truly doesn't wish you dead or anything of that sort, nonetheless their inactions are leaving you there behind, struggling to survive, and indeed I believe dozens of the losses indeed could have been prevented if there was a full-scale response two to two-and-a-half days sooner, where Bush played a role of irresponsibility, but all levels of government in their ways as well understandably.

I've said on and on how I find it absolutely disturbing Bush keeps exploiting the deaths of the approximately three-thousand Americans who were lost on September 11th four years ago on and on and on, especially in fueling an excuse for war. Believe me, my intentions are good, and when I mean this should absolutely be a political issue, I don't want to and would absolutely hate myself for making the same mistake as him in exploiting these innocent victims and make a backdrop out of them. Ford was absolutely correct what I meant (and I absolutely apologize if my words were taken the wrong way or didn't convey them well enough), in that the backdrop should be the foot-dragging of Bush and our government.

***

Frankly, if you're still convinced my last response was aimed at exploiting the New Orleans victims and are white hot angered over it, I can't begin to fathom how you're not equally as angry about our president time and time again exploiting 9/11 to capitalize on his war agenda. It still remains beyond me how you revere such a man who has done just as you have accused me of in your last response...and airbrushing it with an ongoing parade of twists and turns and magic markering. I just believe there's some inconsistency there.

You have every right to be upset, you have every right to be angry, Ringo, and I admit many of us are still in the process of mellowing down after hearing the news on and on and frustrated by the lack of community in general. I just hope from this moment forward, where we will indeed continue to sharply disagree with each other > 98% of the time and seem to be in a mode of argument more than anything else, that we've known each other for a good time now, through poetry, e-mail and discussion threads to value each other and understand each other more than ever, and through thick and thin, I know your intentions are good, just as I hope you still feel likewise about my own.



Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


62 posted 09-09-2005 01:59 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LR, there will undoubtedly be attacks coming from the right, also, but I don't think they will necessarily be aimed at Bush.

Without a doubt, there are plenty of targets. Aside from the mayor, governor, Bush and FEMA there is also the entire beaurocracy of the goverment. The right will go after the last two...the left will go after Bush. The paper-pushing, responsibility-avoiding, self-confused tactics that were demonstrated by FEMA, along with the state and federal government made the situation much worse than it could have been. Governments have always been a beaurocratic jungle. Anyone who has tried to pull permits for house improvements knows that. The Democrats will try to make the case that Washington was beaurocratic free before Bush came to town. Everything always ran smoothly and the GW had to come along. Others will say that Bush's appointee as head of FEMA made the difference.

Anyone remember Hurricane Hugo?

Katrina complaints echo those of the response to Hurricane Hugo

BRUCE SMITH

Associated Press

CHARLESTON, S.C. - A powerful hurricane smashes into the coast - the most costly storm in the nation's history. Thousands are left homeless, hundreds of square miles are left in the dark and people need everything from drinking water and food to baby diapers.

In the days following, the federal response is criticized as too slow, too bureaucratic.

But this is not Hurricane Katrina. It's Hurricane Hugo, which made landfall 16 years ago just northeast of Charleston, packing 135 mph winds.

Like Katrina, it was a Category 4 hurricane when it made landfall and many of today's complaints on the Gulf Coast after Katrina echo those sounded in South Carolina back in 1989.

President Bush said Tuesday he will oversee an investigation into what went wrong with the Katrina response. "Bureaucracy is not going to stand in the way of getting the job done for the people," he vowed.

It was just that bureaucracy that came under fire during Hugo for a slow federal response. After the storm smashed into Charleston on Sept. 21, 1989, it took the Federal Emergency Management Agency 10 days to open its first disaster application center in the city. There were tens of thousands of claims and too few FEMA workers to handle the crunch.

Then-U.S. Sen. Ernest "Fritz" Hollings, D-S.C., called the agency "the sorriest bunch of bureaucratic jackasses I've ever worked with."

With an 80-mile-wide swath of coast left without power, Charleston Mayor Joseph P. Riley Jr. was stunned when he asked for FEMA help and he was asked first whether a damage assessment had been done.

"I told them to send every portable generator they had, that none of them would go unused, and they asked me about an assessment," Riley said at the time.

Later, when Charleston was well on the road to recovery, Riley suggested that, with the red tape, it almost seemed easier for a foreign country to get help from Washington than a city in the United States.


I wonder if those of you old enough to be around for that went after the President and FEMA then with the same vigor you go after GW now. I seriously doubt it....

FEMA's inabilities in very major crises has been constant. Actually, I didn't  realize how much until I started digging in this thread. Homeland Security has never been tested since its organization. Who demanded FEMA come under control of Homeland Security? The Democratic Party. Who is screaming the loudest about excessive beaurocracy in Washington and yet believes in bigger government? The Democratic Party.

So, yes, LR, the fight will come from both sides but the right will be fighting policy and procedure and the left will target Bush. They will use every tactic they can think of. They will drop little comments, as you did, about Bush cutting funding when referring to the collapse of the levee, as if the two just might be related, knowing all the while, as you do, there is no connection. The average American will, I believe, look at the 40 years louisiana did nothing to solve this problem instead as the main reason.

The race card will be played, I am sure, very quickly, the Democratic ace in the hole they always turn to in times of crisis...let's see how long it takes.

I think the following comment says it best..

If everyone in Washington had been as determined to rush help to Louisiana as they now profess to be about investigating how the Hurricane Katrina response failed, the disaster might not have been so bad.

— Detroit Free Press
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


63 posted 09-09-2005 05:18 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Dean: Race Played a Role in Katrina Deaths

By DENISE KALETTE
The Associated Press
Wednesday, September 7, 2005; 7:44 PM

MIAMI -- Race was a factor in the death toll from Hurricane Katrina, Howard Dean told members of the National Baptist Convention of America on Wednesday at the group's annual meeting.

Dean, chairman of the Democratic party, made the comments to the Baptists' Political and Social Justice Commission. The Baptist Convention, with an estimated 3.5 million members, is one of the largest black religious groups in the country.


We must ... come to terms with the ugly truth that skin color, age and economics played a deadly role in who survived and who did not," Dean said.



....and so it begins....
Mistletoe Angel
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 5 Tours
Member Empyrean
since 12-17-2000
Posts 34089
City of Roses


64 posted 09-09-2005 06:42 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

I just can't begin to fathom where Dean, Kanye West are others are coming from in believing that race is an issue here in the events surrounding Katrina.

Look, people of all backgrounds, ethnicities, religions, ideologies and parties suffered in this tragedy. Indeed a lot of blacks suffered; so did a lot of people from all sorts of other backgrounds. I was just audio-editing Free Speech Radio News for the KBOO evening news broadcast just now and heard a most touching story of many Asians from the Asian community of New Orleans moving to an Asian community in Houston, and some stories of adjusting and seeking familiarity across state lines. And those are just a few of many heartfelt stories coming out of this tragedy.

Howard Dean is dead wrong here and he shouldn't expect, as well as anyone else who shares the view of race playing in this, for a majority to take him seriously. Any Democrat, anyone who agrees with him here is dead wrong too.

It just doesn't help to have the words of him and Barbara Bush and Kanye West making headlines everywhere. West's claim was baseless and dead wrong, yet after Barbara Bush came out to say after speaking of the relocation efforts that many are "underprivileged anyway", which those words would only encourage the further strengthening of the baseless claim that poverty played a direct role in this, and now Dean's incredible comments here, they're only going to encourage the stretching and strengthening of these baseless thoughts.

EVERYONE has been affected by this one way or another. SOME were physically affected, losing property, loved ones and precious memories and treasures. But we ALL have been affected one another, we are all of the same heart, we all bleed the same color, and the effects that this tragedy has touched America rises high above any distinction.

Dean and others that choose to continue to play this card politically don't deserve my respect. I believed Dean could have made a wonderful chairman for the Democrats earlier, seeing his history of grassroots mobilization efforts and personality, but in the past half a year, I've grown much increasingly dissatisfied by his performance and this stands out as the most absurd manuever by him yet.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


65 posted 09-09-2005 06:49 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Well Mike.. all I can tell you is you have people like Bill Kristol, Newt Gingrich, the Manchester Union Leader (the most conservative newspaper in the country) attacking Bush directly.  According to the poll numbers there's lots more.
http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showa.html?article=59785
Mistletoe Angel
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 5 Tours
Member Empyrean
since 12-17-2000
Posts 34089
City of Roses


66 posted 09-09-2005 07:59 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Yes, Local Rebel, there is significant dissatisfaction from the right regarding Bush's response and handling of the natural disaster. A majority still support him, but a significant percentage of Republicans nevertheless disapproved of his performance, with a vast majority of Democrats and a slightly smaller percentage of independents also dissatisfied, which that number is crucially significant.

A number of Republicans and right-wing publications and personalities have publicly expressed their disapproval of the administration's response and handling of the situation. Newt Gingrich, Joe Scarborough, some contributors at RedState.org, there's a significant bed of dissent from both sides of the aisle toward their response.

Tom DeLay, Cheney and others can go on saying how outstanding the federal response was to the tragedy; they're wrong.

Dean is being ridiculous for playing the race card, and I agree with the First Lady it needs to stop. But aside from that, I believe the Democrats seem to generally have the right idea here in responding here and bringing up the magnitude of serious issues the weak response has on our national security and the trust of the American government especially. Pelosi was right when she said that right now, Bush just seems incredibly oblivious to what is wrong here.

I believe the Democrats are the ones making a  better initial effort to find out just what wrong and see to it things are at least much more right next time. And there are many Republicans who accept and acknowledge that the response was weak and we could do much better than that who are being quite responsible and understanding here, but in terms of the parties in whole, it's the Democrats who are doing a better job getting the questions out there and demanding answers, while the Bush administration is making more of an effort saving themselves from their obvious irresponsibility and trying to tug their party along with them.

It's the Democrats who are united in calling for an independent investigation in the likes of the 9/11 Commission to investigate all the events surrounding the response, while there are some Republicans who are trying to unilateralize the investigation as one led by Bush.

***

Finally, again, despite there being much wrong in all of this, we must never let go of what is good, what is right here, for there is indeed much right in all of this as well.

I am blessed by the amazing display of compassion and generosity of the American public, of all of us, in contributing to a large number of charities and volunteering to  give all these victims and their families the gift of hope and renewal.

I am blessed that Bush and Congress united together in approving the nearly $52 billion in federal aid for the relief effort. I don't understand how any single representative could vote against the aid money (11 represntatives turned it down) but nonetheless we musn't dwell on that and be most blessed and delighted that help is on the way here with this great first step.

And finally, I am blessed that we could talk about all these issues together as the poetic family we have always been, despite our disagreements sometimes or oftenly.

*****

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


67 posted 09-09-2005 11:07 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LR, let me try to clarify my position on this whole situation, if I may. I said at the beginning of this thread that there was blame to go around for everyone and that there were many things I was dissatisfied with. Do I find Bush culpaple in some way? Yes, I do. I'm not saying in this thread that he is blameless. I am saying, however, that those who are bashing him simply for being Bush, those who are using this tragedy as an opportunity to continue with bashing that they have maintained for years, those who are disregarding any facts that do not point to Bush being the bad guy here...are wrong. Noah has continously reverted back to the Iraq war in this thread. LeeJ refers to his uncaring attitude upon being told of 9-11. People are stretching as far as they can to make sure Bush is cast unfavorably. Even you, good sir, refer to the reduction in funds, knowing full well that it had nothing to do with anything. You also lay blame on the fact that Bush appointed an unqualified man to head FEMA. I will certainly acknowledge the importance of that but, with reference to the above-posted article about Hurricane Hugo, FEMA has apparently always been lacking, even with fully-qualified people at the helm. The thread is filled with cheap shots and that's what I have been objecting to with my defense of GW.

Where do I think he dropped the ball? The George Bush I have admired and fought for went into Afghanistan and got rid of the Taliban. He called the UN ineffective and told them to do something or get out of the way. He told Germany, France and Russia to shove it and went into Iraq. He disregarded world opinion and did what he felt was right for America.  When he called Blanco offering federal assistance, he should have said, "Get out the the way. This is too big for you. We are taking command". He didn't. He allowed her to refuse his help. Why?

Never in the history of our country (or, at least, in my lifetime) has a president been so villified, both by the opposing party and the media. It has been as if neither one ever got over the 2000 election and decided to make his terms as much hell as possible. Everything in the world that has happened has provided an outcry for his impeachment. Abu Ghrab? Panties on prisoner's heads? Impeach Bush. The shortage of flu shots, which Bush had nothing in the world to do with? Impeach Bush. Gitmo? Subjecting prisoners to loud music and sleep deprivation? Impeach Bush. They have forged documents to get at him, provided false statements to get at him...it has not stopped for five years. Now, in this thread, we have people saying, "To hell with the rules. Lives were at stake...he needed to take control!" Did they say the same about Abu Ghrab or Gitmo....oh, no. They attacked him for NOT following rules. He has faced constant antagonism, with either a Pelosi poodle or a Kennedy K-9 snapping at his ankles every step of the way. Through it all, he has maintained his positions and responded without rancor or insulting rebuttal. Noah provided pictures of him eating cake. LR, you saw a video of him playing the guitar. Why? Why do you think the press saw fit to make sure those pics were out there for public view? Why did the press make the big deal of Bush not dropping the kid on his head and running out of the school upon hearing the news of 9-11? You know why....

Yet, in this case, the man who stood up to France, Germany, Russia, Iran and the UN, allowed a small governor to refuse his offer of assistance. Let's paint the opposite scenario and sees how it plays out. Bush tells Blanco the feds are taking over. The evacuation and the subsequent rescue efforts succeed. The Democrats, led by Kennedy and Pelosi, scream that Bush exceeded his authority. The Democratic governor could haved handled it well but Bush bullied his way in like some gone-berzerk Texas Ranger to make sure the Republicans got the credit. He disregarded the rules, ignored the proper procedures. Just another case of dirty politics and misuse of his office. You think it wouldn't have played out that way? Oh, really....?

In spite of that, I think that's exactly what Bush should have done. The George Bush I have supported fully would have done that. Unfortunately, I don't think we have that George Bush any more. I think he has been  beaten down by the constant barrage of attacks to the point that he tries to avoid situations of controversy. If he exceeds her authority, he gets blasted. If he doesn't, he gets blasted. The important part of the entire scenario should have been saving as many lives as possible. Blanco blew that by refusing federal control. Bush blew it by following the law and allowing her to do so.

For my part, I will be glad when Bush's term is over. I don't know that he will ever again be the man who told the UN where to shove it and how deep. The Left and the press have done their job well.

As the Union Leader finished it's article, I, too, echo the same sentiments..

Wherever the old George W. Bush went, we sure wish we had him back.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


68 posted 09-09-2005 11:25 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I guess the question is Mike, why did he pose for the photo op with the guitar?

What you saw, and the Union Leader saw, last week was the real GW.  No Rove (on vacation), no Cheney (on vacation), no Hughes (on vacation).

Sure people want to blame him for everything... I understand that you want to make sure he doesn't get blamed for what he's not responsible for -- But, letting Brown go today is pretty telling.  And the whole debit card thing just reeks of incompetence.  

Why, when FEMA has for years listed three things as it's priority threats; Terrorist Attack in New York City, A cat 5 hurricane hits New Orleans, the Big One on the San Andreas Fault -- are we seeing such poor performance here?

The Army Corp of Engineers has been warning about the levees since the 80's.  Bush's dad did nothing about it.  Clinton did nothing about it.  GW did nothing about it.  If you buy a house with a bad foundation and you know it, and don't fix it -- are you going to blame the guy who didn't fix it before you?  You can't do it Mike.

He had the opportunity and didn't do it.

The rescue operation was a disaster and people died.  You really want to tell someone who's mother died on Friday that it's just politics for politicians to hire their unqualified friends?  Everybody does it?  But, if he just showed up on Wednesday instead of Thursday --- if he had even looked at the news on Thursday to know what was going on -- Brown was oblivious Mike -- OBLIVIOUS.  He didn't even call his boss until 5 hours after the levee broke. Clueless.

FEMA hasn't always been broken.  Whit had it in great shape.  It's deteriorated on this guys watch.

What has become painfully obvious was that it was Giuliani's leadership in New York, and the smarter brother Jeb in Florida who have both kept this from coming to the fore until now.  Barbour and Blanco just didn't have the stuff.  

If you were a woman who was raped in the Superdome or you lost a relative -- wouldn't you be doing nothing short of calling for criminal neglect charges to be brought against the heads of all three levels of government?
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


69 posted 09-10-2005 12:04 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The Army Corp of Engineers has been warning about the levees since the 80's.  Bush's dad did nothing about it.  Clinton did nothing about it.  GW did nothing about it

They have been warned longer than that. The ACE of Louisiana gets more government funding than any other state in the country. Where has the money gone? You yourself have spoken in this thread about the political corruption of Louisiana since the days of Huey long. They have certainly had the money to do it...why didn't they? When GW cut back the funding he simply gave them less money to steal.

FEMA hasn't always been broken.  Whit had it in great shape.  It's deteriorated on this guys watch.

Apparently you didn't read the above article on Hurricane Hugo, where it took FEMA 10 days to set something up and had politicians screaming. I personally would call that broken...

If you were a woman who was raped in the Superdome or you lost a relative -- wouldn't you be doing nothing short of calling for criminal neglect charges to be brought against the heads of all three levels of government?

...and if you were a woman raped in Chicago would you be calling for charges to be brought against the Governor of Illinois?

(and, btw, why was she there to be raped, instead of in one of those buses being transported out of town that the mayor didn't send?)

(and, btw, I see no Democrats calling for criminal neglect charges against the mayor or governor of Louisiana)

You see the real GW playing the guitar. I see the real GW staring down the UN....we will both continue with our perceptions - that's the American way


Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


70 posted 09-10-2005 12:14 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

If the governor of Illinois told me to go somewhere and I'd be taken care of there -- and there was no security, no food, no water -- you bet I would.

The democrats are demogoguing -- just like the Republicans would be doing if a Democrat was in office.

You can't blame Huey P. Long for the levees breaking -- if you want to try to do that you may as well blame Jefferson for buying the place to begin with.  Sure, there's a history to this.  And we have to understand that progression.

This was GW's down.  His quarter.  His ball.  His game.  

Staring down the UN isnt't really all that impressive to me Mike.  That's like a 500lb gorrilla staring down Erkle.  There are better ways to lead.

Oh. yeah.. the word kind of explains itself -- you go somewhere and get people to follow you -- instead of pushing them.  

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


71 posted 09-10-2005 12:38 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

afraid you misunderstood. I wasn't blaming Huey for the levee...my comment said that there has been major corruption there at least since his time..

If the governor of Illinois told me to go somewhere and I'd be taken care of there -- and there was no security, no food, no water -- you bet I would

hmmm...Bush told them to go to the Superdome, then?

Not only did Nagin know that the Superdome would prove inadequate for shelter for any period longer than a few hours, he encouraged people to gather there without providing the resources he knew that shelter to lack. Instead, he ran off to Baton Rouge despite his responsibility to oversee the execution of the emergency-response plans and ranted at Bush for not reacting quickly enough to the disaster

We have never had a politician with the guts to call the UN Erkle, either

At any rate, you have expressed your views and I have expressed mine...and so it goes..

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


72 posted 09-10-2005 12:42 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

no.. Nagin told them to go to the Superdome without security or provisions.  His sin.

Brown, and Bush, left them there.  Brown's sin.  Bush's responsibility.  

Sorry about the Erkle comment... it's just that was the wimpiest character I could think of.  
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


73 posted 09-10-2005 12:51 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
In spite of that, I think that's exactly what Bush should have done. The George Bush I have supported fully would have done that. Unfortunately, I don't think we have that George Bush any more. I think he has been  beaten down by the constant barrage of attacks to the point that he tries to avoid situations of controversy. If he exceeds her authority, he gets blasted. If he doesn't, he gets blasted. The important part of the entire scenario should have been saving as many lives as possible. Blanco blew that by refusing federal control. Bush blew it by following the law and allowing her to do so.


Mike, he hasn't changed.

This is what we've been seeing for the last five years. This is what we've been screaming about for the last five years (with the exception of a few weeks in September a few years ago).

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


74 posted 09-10-2005 01:04 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Brad, I'm afraid I don't understand your comment....sincerely. You displayed my comment about him being worn down by a barrage of attacks and state that's what you have been seeing for five years. He wasn't worn down by attacks five years ago....so i;m not sure what  you have been seeing.

I do have a question, though? The scenario I posed of what would have happened had Bush forcibly taken control away from Blanco...do you see it as possibly valid?
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> The Alley >> Finger Pointing......   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  6  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors